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corbon

Tyrion and Sansa

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This is a continuation of an older topic surrounding Tyrion and Sansa's wedding night, because its come up again in another thread and clearly there is unfinished business... :)
 

This discussion involves complicated moral issues. Its easy to express one-self inaccurately in these areas, and its gonna happen - we are all human and prone to mistakes. So please, be very very very careful, when assuming the meaning of what you read. You may have read it wrong, or the writer may have expressed themselves poorly. Please don't jump all over any ideas hastily just because you find them abhorent. You might be right. You are more likely to be wrong.

Some previous posts from the current thread on a different subject for a little context - imperfectly because I'm not going to bother breaking down the split replies and answers etc. You can go to the Tysha thread (pgs 5-8 mostly) to view the conversation before it moved here if you are interested in finer detail. I'll start my reply after this post
 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

No, Tyrion might have romanticized it. And I've been reading his pov and recollection and honestly just haven't thought about it all enough yet. But you make some valid points, that I hadn't considered before. 

 

Thank you! I guess this is the "evidence" I was looking for. I guess I have misjudged GRRM's world then.

My opinion mostly originated from what Septon Meribald said

"Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They’ve heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know."

and stories like the the young wolf being a cannibal and his sister killed the king with a spell and turned into a wolf with wings and flew off. But that of course doesn't necessarily exclude the culture, that GRRM is painting in this interview. 

The out of this culture resulting power imbalance between Tyrion and Tysha could for sure put their relationship in a different light.

 

@corbon & also @Lyanna<3Rhaegar I guess you guys were right, I misjudged the world. So with that in mind I guess it's fine to examine the responsibility Tyrion and even Tysha might have had for their own actions, while keeping in mind that Tywin-the car lol- still is 100% to blame for what he did. I think BM makes some valid points about the power dynamic between Tyrion and Tysha and how that could have had an effect on their relationship, well illustrated by the GRRM quote he has given.

That being said very subjectively I think GRRM wanted Tyrion to have this one true love, that then was destroyed - but it is just a subjective opinion, that I can't back up through anything and I might very well be wrong.

IMO if GRRM wanted this to be "real love" he for sure made some logical mistakes or mistakes, that make the reader question, if this could have been real, as pointed out by BM.

F.e. why make this all last only 2 weeks? Why not maybe hide Tyrion's identity-at least in the beginning? (but maybe this would have been perceived as betraying her again) 

The problem is that all in all we have next to no objective information about what really happened IMO and I think it again says a lot about GRRM as a writer, that he lets his favorite character be perceived as either a rapist at 13 or solely a sexual abuse victim and doesn't bother to clarify what truly happened and how this event should be interpreted by the readers.

I understand, that you guys wanna examine Tysha's and Tyrion's potential responsibility for their actions and motivation behind it, I guess it's not really my thing for reasons I've already explained and because I also just think we don't have enough information to properly do that. It's just a guessing game.

It does however surprise me, that you guys think he had responsibility for his actions in this scenario- being a child and all, longing for love- but don't think he had responsibility for his actions on the wedding night, where he was 26, had a life time of experiences (also about his father etc) and had a complete understanding the situation, was privy to all of the political background, was self-aware and aware of "Sansa's nature" and situation.

Don't get me wrong I think it was a triumph for his character, that he did stop and didn't fully follow, what his father taught him early on, but I also think he did something wrong and has full responsibility for it.

I don't want to derail this thread, just mentioning it, because we didn't really get closure on it and it surprises me, that while I am fully willing to let Tyrion off the hook in this scenario for reasons I already mentioned, you guys wanna examine his responsibility here, while you didn't think he was responsible, when he was an adult, but I do. 

Maybe it was with the labeling again, because I called it sexual assault? I guess I just call things as they are defined and are not that sensitive about it. Of course like you guys, I would be extremely carful using that term irl. And definitely would not just throw that around.

And IMO Tyrion was also more aware, that Sansa didn't want this, then you guys were. So I guess, that's were our differentiating opinions  might come from. Anyway didn't want to completely start this subject again, but just think it's thematically fitting, since it is actually a similar scenario, involving to of the same characters Tywin and Tyrion- just older and a different girl.

For me by all means it's not a gender thing, also has nothing to do with the fact, that I really like Sansa as a character. Doesn't matter if it's Sansa, Jon, Tyrion or Dany. A lot of my "experience" about all of this actually comes from a male friend, who was raped by a girl. 

If that was an isolated incident, I'd agree. But Tywin has never shown Tyrion any love and he is his son and he has abused and neglected him. Any parent is to blame for those actions. Sure Tyrion threatening his grandsons deserves chastising, but Tywin doesn't manage his house in a psychological clever way. A "gifted" lord would have made sure there is unity amongst his family and that he can use their individual talents to benefit his house. He shouldn't have done what he did to Tysha. A "normal" punishment would have been enough, he should have let Tyrion keep a mistress or at least not threaten to kill the next sex worker. All of this would have been psychological measures to keep his son happy and would have helped to not have him turn against him in the end. Tywin also wasn't blind to Cersei's nature and the animosity between her and Tyrion. It would have been his responsibility to make sure they get along and work together instead of against each other. So I keep my opinion here, that Tywin was psychologically quite dumb, couldn't get over himself, couldn't act rationally in regards to his children- the results were Tyrion and Cersei (Jaime couldn't be "used" in an optimal way as well)- and it killed him in the end. He is like a coach, that breaks all of his top athletes, because they are sensitive and he just verbally abuses them all the time. A really successful coach knows what to say to which athlete to get the right results. And by treating Tyrion the way that he did, he wasted his talents for house Lannister.

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh, he does have responsibility for his actions irt to Sansa & the wedding night. I think where we mostly disagree there is irt what he should have known or perceived from Sansa herself. There, as with here, I understand why Tysha & Tyrion took the actions they did & don't think those actions are wrong or bad but they still are to blame for their own actions. Sansa too, she had actions that played a role in that situation also. They weren't wrong or bad & they were completely understandable but they are still hers & she holds the responsibility for them. 

 

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, I guess, that is where our opinions are different.

Take the example of Tyrion. We don't know exactly what happened. But just presume, that Tyrion was traumatized, horrified, in absolute terror of what he had just witnessed in front of him. Then his father tells him "Now you Tyrion". Tyrion does absolutely not want to do this, he is in absolute terror, but his body is "betraying" him and because of all of the psychological power his father holds over him, his age and a lifetime of abuse he ends up doing it against his will.

If this is what happened ( for what we don't have sufficient evidence, but is what I believed happened) then Tyrion holds 0% responsibly for his own actions, because he was in a traumatic situation, trying to survive and indeed he was raped himself.

The same way I see Sansa's situation she was in a traumatizing situation (preceded by a year of psychological and physical abuse, trauma and imprisonment) she doesn't want to do this, but because of the psychological power the Lannisters hold over her and a year of trauma and abuse she does against her will, therefore she holds 0 responsibility for her actions, her body is just trying to survive.

Tyrion holds now psychological power over Sansa the same way, that Tywin did over Tyrion and the outside information about the situation should have been enough for Tyrion to not let her undress for him.

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Thanks. I guess I'm cynical to some extent even of septon meribald. 

It should be fine to examine that responsibility regardless.

Indeed and indeed. And I think I always indicated taking into account such things.

You might be right too. This is not something I'd reject, though I think that if it were true we'd have more powerful evidence for it.

Haha, nice point.
Show, don't tell. The reader gets to interpret the story through their own lens - which is why we all have different beliefs about the same set of words.

To be honest, its not really that interesting, because, as you say, we just don't have enough information to do it properly.

I objected originally to an attempt (not necessarily even deliberate) to shut down someone else's thoughts in a way that I believe is ultimately (if not deliberately) dishonest and immoral. I felt comfortable calling it out because I respect and trust the people making that error that we would be able to talk through any ensuing discussion - parsing the finer points of moral reasoning in tricky subjects seems to be interesting to me (I don't really know why, or at least haven't thought about it) - and that they wouldn't hold to any feeling of 'insult' they got from me calling it out.

I sort of sidestepped the discussion for a while because you were unintentionally metaphorically begging me to escalate and I didn't think that was a good idea for either of us.

Oh we both think he had responsibility for his actions, we just disagree with you on the context of those actions and what they meant.

I understand. I just don't agree on whether what he did was wrong. But here is not the right place to discuss that. Nor am I sure there is much benefit to be had in doing so as I don't think either sides have changed outlooks.

Thats a part of it, but only a part.

Indeed. I don;t think its that we don't agree that Tyrion knew she didn't want it - we agree on that. But there is more to it than that. But again, thats for a different place, and we've said what can be said already.

I pretty much do.

The physical actions at that time, indeed, 0% responsibility, or as near to it as makes no difference,
The action I think he's 'responsible' for, holds some element of 'blame' for, is choosing to 'set up house' with Tysha when he knew it would end badly (thats why he tried to hide it), knew his father was famously ruthless and brutal, and knew Tysha was utterly unprotected.

Agreed, mostly.

You almost dragged me in there. :D Look, if I answer this part we're really going back there!

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, I personally just think you and @Lyanna<3Rhaegar are applying two different types of logic for those two situations and for me it is illogical. I'll just point this one last thing out. Then I'll stop (well depending on your answer, I guess lol) 

You both think Tyrion knew Sansa didn't want it, right?

Tywin probably also knew Tyrion generally speaking didn't want to do it.

Let's first clarify molestation is not as bad as rape of course.

But just because Tyrion obeys his father does that now signal back to Tywin, that he wants to do it? That he is actually okay with this? Does that now mean Tywin has not raped his son, because he didn't say something against his father and just did it? Does this now mean Tyrion has suddenly changed his mind and wants to rape her? IMO no, because Tywin generally speaking knows, that Tyrion doesn't want to rape his wife. The same way, that Tyrion generally speaking knows, that Sansa doesn't want to be married to him and doesn't want to sleep with him.

 

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@Nagini's Neville: Tyrion holds now psychological power over Sansa the same way, that Tywin did over Tyrion and the outside information about the situation should have been enough for Tyrion to not let her undress for him.

Agreed. Tyrion holds that power. But not just Tyrion. The "hold" has been established by Cersei and Joffrey, not by Tyrion - actually in much the same way, though more subtley, that Ramsay established his "hold" over Reek/Theon.
 

The difference is that Tyrion makes every effort to give every element of that power that he personally holds, back to Sansa. She refuses to take up that power, because of the effect of the psychological hold Cersei and Joffrey have established over her, but thats not Tyrion's fault. Its some small element hers* (it is her choice after all) and a large element Cersei and Joffrey's (they built that hold that prevents her). All he can do is offer it, and he does so repeatedly. Towards the end, he even offers her independent power over him personally, by making himself absolutely vulnerable.

*now, to clarify, I understand that trying to explain that to her might cause more damage than good, at least until she has reached a certain stage of healing. I'm not doing that, and I'm not advocating that. That would, I think, be a true clinical situation and textbook correct use of the terminology "victim blaming", if she was not ready for that level of discussion.
But she's not here, heck she's not even real. We can discuss it accurately, safely, without causing damage to her.
Anyone else viewing, who may be in a position to suffer damage from this discussion is clearly in need of healing first, before they come here. Their presence, and any potential harm that ensures, is their own responsibility, not ours.

And harm goes many ways. That includes to the people on the other side of this. Who have been accused of molestation or rape but who in truth have done nothing wrong. An inability to discuss these sensitive issues because someone else might wander in of their own accord and suffer harm, harms those people. 

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@Nagini's Neville: And IMO Tyrion was also more aware, that Sansa didn't want this, then you guys were. So I guess, that's were our differentiating opinions  might come from.

Oh we are fully aware and in agreement that Tyrion knew, or at least believed, that Sansa didn't want this.

We just believe that Tyrion is morally obliged to honour Sansa's choices, not what he thinks her desires are. Because people can and do choose things they don't want, for many and varied reasons. 
To not honour her choices would be to take away what little agency she has. To say she matters so little as a human being that he reserves even the right to choose what is best for her.

In this case, Sansa's choices actually made sense to Tyrion. Given the situation she was in, marriage to a Lannister was simply happening. She can;t avoid that fate. She can choose (because Tyrion gave her that power) which Lannister she marries.  Tyrion at least had been kind to her, as she recognised herself and enunciated to him. And he knew he would continue to be kind to her.

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@Nagini's Neville: Tywin probably also knew Tyrion generally speaking didn't want to do it.

Agreed.

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@Nagini's Neville: But just because Tyrion obeys his father does that now signal back to Tywin, that he wants to do it? That he is actually okay with this?

Not at all. 
The difference between Tywin/Tyrion(Tysha) and Tyrion/Sansa is that Tywin never gave Tyrion any power at all, no choices, no respect, no indication that he mattered as a person (as opposed to just a Lannister), whereas Tyrion gave everything he could to Sansa.
So Tyrion's obedience signals nothing. He had no choices. But Sansa's 'obedience' is very different, She was given repeated options to choose a different path and every single time clearly enunciated a choice to stay on the same course. 

 

some quotes
Bear in mind that acknowledging what the text says and how people act does not constitute blaming Sansa for her choices.
this discussion is primarily about the responsibility borne by Tyrion for what happened that night.

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I understand your reluctance. Cry if you must. In your place, I would likely rip my hair out. He's a loathsome little imp, no doubt of it, but marry him you shall."
"You can't make me."
"Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same.1" The queen opened the door. Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Osmund Kettleblack were waiting without, in the white scale armor of the Kingsguard. "Escort Lady Sansa to the sept," she told them. "Carry her if you must, but try not to tear the gown, it was very costly."
Sansa tried to run2, but Cersei's handmaid caught her before she'd gone a yard. Ser Meryn Trant gave her a look that made her cringe, but Kettleblack touched her almost gently and said, "Do as you're told, sweetling, it won't be so bad. Wolves are supposed to be brave, aren't they?"
Brave. Sansa took a deep breath. I am a Stark, yes, I can be brave3. They were all looking at her, the way they had looked at her that day in the yard when Ser Boros Blount had torn her clothes off. It had been the Imp who saved her from a beating that day, the same man who was waiting for her now. He is not so bad as the rest of them, she told herself.4 "I'll go."

1. Its Cersei (and Tywin) that is actually forcing this. And its wedded and bedded (because consummation matters, legally)
2. Sansa did actually physically try to avoid this. Tyrion wasn't present though.
3. Sansa is persuaded to be brave
4. Sansa herself thinks that Tyrion is not so bad as the rest of them, he saved her before - this proves Tyrion's belief that he would not be so bad for her as other Lannisters is in fact shared by her.

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"My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding. I am sorry for that.5 And for making this so sudden, and so secret. My lord father felt it necessary, for reasons of state.6 Else I would have come to you sooner, as I wished." He waddled closer. "You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce.7"
I don't want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon. But then she remembered what Dontos had told her in the godswood. Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it's not me they want, only my claim. "You are kind, my lord8," she said, defeated. "I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands.9"

5. Tyrion pays her the respect of apologising for the situation...
6. ... and explaining why it has happened despite it not being his choice
7. Tyrion gives Sansa the power to change course, to marry someone else.
8. Sansa acknowledges his kindness
9. But chooses (thanks in large part to Cersei and Joffrey's "hold") to stay on course for wedding and bedding with Tyrion.
I won't bother quoting it but immediately after this she acknowledges his kindness again.

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"Nothing was ever wiser. I am not truly drunk, you see. But I mean to be."
Sansa filled a goblet for each of them. It will be easier if I am drunk as well. She sat on the edge of the great curtained bed and drained half her cup in three long swallows. No doubt it was very fine wine, but she was too nervous to taste it. It made her head swim. "Would you have me undress, my lord?"10
"Tyrion." He cocked his head. "My name is Tyrion, Sansa."11

10. She initiates their duty - consummation, sex. She's the one moving forward here, not him
11. He deflects

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"Tyrion. My lord. Should I take off my gown, or do you want to undress me?"12 She took another swallow of wine.
The Imp turned away from her.13 "The first time I wed, there was us and a drunken septon, and some pigs to bear witness. We ate one of our witnesses at our wedding feast. Tysha fed me crackling and I licked the grease off her fingers, and we were laughing when we fell into bed."

12. She initiates again
13. He deflects again

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"Thirteen," she said, "when the moon turns."
"Gods have mercy." The dwarf took another swallow of wine. "Well, talk won't make you older. Shall we get on with this, my lady? If it please you?"14
"It will please me to please my lord husband."15

14. Tyrion finally accepts, reluctantly, but gives her the power again - if it please her. Perhaps this is courtesy only, perhaps not. What would have happened if she said "it does not please me"? I don't know. I do know that he gave her a chance to choose, or at least signal her choice, again.
15. And again, she chooses to stay the course.

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That seemed to anger him. "You hide behind courtesy as if it were a castle wall."
"Courtesy is a lady's armor," Sansa said. Her septa had always told her that.
"I am your husband. You can take off your armor now."
"And my clothing?"16
"That too." He waved his wine cup at her. "My lord father has commanded me to consummate this marriage."

16. Yet again, she changes the subject back toward the forthcoming sex. Her push not his.

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 Yet somehow she managed the laces and buttons, and her cloak and gown and girdle and undersilk slid to the floor, until finally she was stepping out of her smallclothes. Gooseprickles covered her arms and legs. She kept her eyes on the floor, too shy to look at him, but when she was done she glanced up and found him staring. There was hunger in his green eye, it seemed to her, and fury in the black. Sansa did not know which scared her more.
"You're a child,"17 he said.
She covered her breasts with her hands. "I've flowered.18"
"A child," he repeated, "but I want you. Does that frighten you, Sansa?"
"Yes."
"Me as well.19I know I am ugly—"

17. He puts up an objection (I believe he is talking about her emotional status as she is clearly written to be physically matured ahead of her years). This gives her yet another opportunity to change course, to choose.
18. She shoots down the objection, chooses to stay the same course.
19. Tyrion gives her power by exposing his own vulnerabiity and fear to her. 

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He is as frightened as I am, Sansa realized. 20a Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly toward him, but it did not. All she felt was pity,20band pity was death to desire. He was looking at her, waiting for her to say something, but all her words had withered. She could only stand there trembling.

20a+b. Sansa acknowledges to herself what he has given her and takes enough of that power on to feel pity on him.
Get that? Sansa felt pity for Tyrion in this situation. That means she felt a kind of power over him, or a least a sense of superiority, in some small way. He gave her that power, that opportunity, deliberately.
It backfired on him though. Such is life. 

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When he finally realized that she had no answer for him, Tyrion Lannister drained the last of his wine. "I understand," he said bitterly.21"Get in the bed, Sansa. We need to do our duty."22

21. Sansa has shot down every choice to change course, every deflection, every bit of power he gave her. He's run out of deflections, prevarications, she's even shot down (in effect) his final offer to let him be good to her. We know why, we understand her position, we don't blame her for those things. He's bitter, sure. I read that as bitter at the situation, that she couldn't meet him, not blaming her for not doing so. I think any other reading jars badly against all the subtext before and after.
22. But from Tyrion's POV, he's tried everything he could, and he's run out of options. So he's resigned to the duty they both have to do, reluctantly.

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She climbed onto the featherbed, conscious of his stare.23 A scented beeswax candle burned on the bedside table and rose petals had been strewn between the sheets. She had started to pull up a blanket to cover herself when she heard him say, "No."24
The cold made her shiver, but she obeyed. Her eyes closed, and she waited. After a moment she heard the sound of her husband pulling off his boots, and the rustle of clothing as he undressed himself. 

23. This was claimed to be a creepy salacious stare from Tyrion and an attempt to perve at her nakedness. I think thats a terrible reading of the situation, utterly ignoring the context of all Tyrion has said and done leading up to and immediately after this. 
I think the stare is not pervy in nature. I think he's utterly saddened by what he thought he almost had, could have had had Sansa chosen otherwise (but be reminded, he gave her that choice, and respected her choice even though it cost him). He's staring at her in defeat IMO, still reluctant to move to the final duty.
24. Again, I don't think this is pervy. I think its a choice for both of them to face the hard duty full on. If he had let her hide under the bedclothes, joined her hiding under them, it could so easily have gone differently. I think he did her a great favour here by making her face the final task (even if with her eyes shut!) and I think it plays an important role in the stoppage that follows.
 

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When he hopped up on the bed and put his hand on her breast,25 Sansa could not help but shudder.26 She lay with her eyes closed, every muscle tense, dreading what might come next. Would he touch her again? Kiss her? Should she open her legs for him now? She did not know what was expected of her.
"Sansa." The hand was gone. "Open your eyes."27

25. Its a hand on her breast. Its not a grope, a fondle. its a careful next step. They are heading towards sex, have been the entire day. Its a requirement for both of them, to consummate the marriage.
I can't think what else he's supposed to do there. She doesn't want this, but neither does he. At every step along the way through the day and evening she's actively assented towards this, even when he gave her opportunities to make different choices. But even here, at this late stage, he's being respectful, cautious. Because he knows she doesn't want this. He is, in effect, giving her yet another final opportunity to change course.
26. And this time, for the first time, she does change course. Her body overpowers her will, her conscious choice, and displays unequivocally her un-assent.
27. And his response is immediate and absolute. He accepts her un-assent absolutely and unreservedly. 
What more could he do?

 

Edited by corbon

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I don't exactly follow the argument so far from the quotes above, but I do give Tyrion some credit for not going through with it. It seems to me that this is how society mostly progresses - not through individuals being dramatically superior to their culture, but through smaller steps - individuals behaving less badly. Tyrion behaves less badly than the majority of Westeros bridegrooms, who would commit marital rape without much hesitation (and not because they are all evil either, just that there are no civil protections or human rights in this society; the only safety and strength comes from the family and the feudal system, and so both must be supported - not a good place to be, I know).

When looking at Sansa, you have to take into account that she had no expectation whatsoever of avoiding the deflowering. It appears she just wanted the whole thing over as quick as possible - so I think her actions were not positive moves forwards, but the opposite: an escape away looking for the least worst option.

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8 hours ago, corbon said:

. And his response is immediate and absolute. He accepts her un-assent absolutely and unreservedly. 
What more could he do?

Excellent post. I don't have anything to add to that other than I agree 100 %

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14 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

When looking at Sansa, you have to take into account that she had no expectation whatsoever of avoiding the deflowering. It appears she just wanted the whole thing over as quick as possible - so I think her actions were not positive moves forwards, but the opposite: an escape away looking for the least worst option.

I agree. However, Sansa is giving every outward sign of assent (even if we the readers know & understand why) 

15 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

don't exactly follow the argument so far from the quotes above

Just to give a little clarification we were discussing the responsibility people hold for their own choices. It was a detailed discussion that started in another thread - Tyrion & Tysha - & led to Sansa & Tyrion. We had previously discussed Sansa & Tyrion in the thread Corbon linked. 

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9 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't exactly follow the argument so far from the quotes above,

Yeah, its not really easy to follow, sorry, but its would be a tremendous amount of work to rehash it here - and there are erros and mistakes made on both sides not worth rehashing too. Most of it is in originally in a third thread, locked after 23 pages, now back around pg7ish. 

 

It was argued in that thread that Tyrion was a rapist, a molester, an abuser of Sansa. Quotes from the text showed a very very different narrative to what was being put forth. 

In the Tysha thread the subject of responsibilities - blame for lack of a better word - was again raised. There are distinct similarities between the Tywin/Tyrion/Tysha story and the Lannister hegemony/Tyrion/Sansa story. the discussion there naturally started to veer to similar territories as before and the question was raised as to why there appeared to be a different attitude on my part (and @Lyanna<3Rhaegar).
Not wishing to derail that thread, I opened this one.
The simple answer, BTW (not that there is any such thing as a simple answer in these complicated moral situations!) is that I/we believe that Tyrion made choices in the Tysha saga which were ultimately selfish and led to great harm, and did not make such selfish choices that led to harm in the Sansa saga. In fact the text shows that in the Sansa saga he kept her wellbeing as his highest (relative) priority - even above his own.

9 hours ago, Springwatch said:

but I do give Tyrion some credit for not going through with it. It seems to me that this is how society mostly progresses - not through individuals being dramatically superior to their culture, but through smaller steps - individuals behaving less badly. Tyrion behaves less badly than the majority of Westeros bridegrooms, who would commit marital rape without much hesitation (and not because they are all evil either, just that there are no civil protections or human rights in this society; the only safety and strength comes from the family and the feudal system, and so both must be supported - not a good place to be, I know).

I'd generally agree here.

However, you say Tyrion behaves "less badly" than other bridegrooms might have. My question to you is, where exactly did Tyrion behave badly toward Sansa on this occasion?

9 hours ago, Springwatch said:

When looking at Sansa, you have to take into account that she had no expectation whatsoever of avoiding the deflowering. It appears she just wanted the whole thing over as quick as possible - so I think her actions were not positive moves forwards, but the opposite: an escape away looking for the least worst option.

Agreed.
But the fact remains, she assented (we use that word because by a modern definition he could not truly consent in that situation) repeatedly. They bot had a hard duty to do. Hers harder than his, absolutely, but not one either of them wanted. Its the best of bad options for her, and Tyrion is very cognisant of this I think - its shows in a number of quotes from both her and hims. But he does everything in his power to both improve it for her, give her the opportunity to make it less bad, and even give her power over him. 
Given the situation already exists, and is outside the control of either of them, is there anything more he could do for her than what he did - especially given that she made conscious choices along the way which he morally is obliged to respect?

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I'd like to offer a different interpretation of the Tyrion/Sansa wedding and wedding night, minefield though it is. I'm not doing so in opposition to corbon's analysis, but in addition to it. I think that character's interactions can have multiple levels which are operating simultaneously, especially when GRRM is the author.

In ASOS, Sansa III, Tyrion says:

Quote

"My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding. I am sorry for that. And for making this so sudden, and so secret. My lord father felt it necessary, for reasons of state. Else I would have come to you sooner, as I wished." He waddled closer. "You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so and I will end this farce."

I would posit that Tyrion is not saying this in 100% good faith here. He's clearly operating to his father's dictates ("My lord father felt it necessary"). But I think there is good reason to believe that Tyrion understands that the option of Lancel is a non-starter and won't happen no matter what Sansa says. For some background that illuminates Tyrion's pseudo-offer of Lancel, here's the background from Tyrion III:

Quote

"If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins," said his father. "Kevan, is Lancel strong enough to wed, do you think?"

Ser Kevan hesitated. "If we bring the girl to his bedside, he could say the words ... but to consummate, no ... I would suggest one of the twins, but the Starks hold them both at Riverrun. They have Genna's boy Tion as well, else he might serve."

Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew.

[...]

(Tywin) "You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon."

This discussion of possible other bridegrooms is a charade and Tyrion understands it to be a charade, a bit of byplay. Tywin makes it clearer still with his direct order which is the final sentence (in more ways than one!) of the chapter, shorn of any pretense: Sansa will be wed to Tyrion and nobody else, no matter what.

So Tyrion could make an offer of Lancel instead of himself, knowing full well that it isn't a viable option. He has good reasons to make this pretend offer: it's face-saving for him, it eases his qualms about marrying so young a girl, he hopes she will think better of him for having done so. And it costs him nothing, since there's no chance that anyone other than himself will be wed to Sansa.

 

The next thing concerns Sansa's consent. ASOS, Sansa III:

Quote

"You are kind, my lord," she said, defeated. "I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands."

First of all: "You are kind, my lord". One one level, yes, she is recognizing Tyrion's kindness. But it's also a standard courtesy which can be meaningless in its essence. How many times have all of us answered the question "how are you?" with "fine" even if we're not actually fine? So, explicitly she's acknowledging kindness but implicitly, she's also saying the correct, polite, socially-acceptable thing, as she as been so relentlessly taught all of her 12 years.

Secondly, I would like to emphasize the nature of Sansa's acquiescense: "You are kind, my lord," she said, defeated. Defeated. She's simply recognizing the inevitable. She has no way out and she finally understands that. At this point, the societal rules governing her behavior take over completely and she has to abide by them.

All of Sansa's other consents on the wedding night are of the same nature, I would argue. Explicitly she's consenting, but implicitly she's bowing to the inevitable. She's behaving in the way a girl of her social class and training is expected - required - to behave. She's a firm believer in her society's hierarchical structure (indeed, since she's only 12 she has neither the life experience nor the wherewithal to question or doubt such structures) in which marriage makes the husband and wife one person and the husband is that person.

I think there is a pretty sizable gulf between "consent" and "bowing to the inevitable". I would call Sansa's consent "consent with an asterisk".

 

 

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34 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

would posit that Tyrion is not saying this in 100% good faith here. He's clearly operating to his father's dictates ("My lord father felt it necessary").

I would disagree it's not in good faith, as this is the truth.

34 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

But I think there is good reason to believe that Tyrion understands that the option of Lancel is a non-starter and won't happen no matter what Sansa says. For some background that illuminates Tyrion's pseudo-offer of Lancel, here's the background from

I think what Tyrion understands & what can be taken from the quoted conversation is not that Lancel or another Lannister wouldn't be married to Sansa in his stead, but that Tywin & Kevan are using this to convince or persuade him. Similar to how we might try to get a child to do something we want them to do (tell them, ok, if you won't I'll have your brother/sister do it) pretty much saying alright but if you don't take this 'prize' it will be given to someone else. Not because it wouldn't indeed be given to someone else if Tyrion refuses, but as a means of persuasion. 

I think your line of thought leads to believing that Tyrion could not refuse. That he would be forced in some way if he tried to refuse. While, I don't believe Tyrion would ultimately get away with refusing his Lord father with no repercussions, I also don't see how he would be forced to partake in this marriage. I also believe that if Tyrion does refuse Tywin has no choice but to marry her to Lancel or another Lannister. He has to marry her to someone under his control or risk losing her to the Tyrell's. So, short, I think the offer to stop the marriage if she preferred another Lannister was in earnest. 

Also, if we operate under the assumption that Tyrion could not refuse, would be married to her regardless of what he agrees to, then he has to be held responsible to a much, much lesser degree in regards to anything that follows right? 

41 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

This discussion of possible other bridegrooms is a charade and Tyrion understands it to be a charade, a bit of byplay. Tywin makes it clearer still with his direct order which is the final sentence (in more ways than one!) of the chapter, shorn of any pretense: Sansa will be wed to Tyrion and nobody else, no matter what

Sorry, I got ahead of myself & responded to this post above. 

41 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

So Tyrion could make an offer of Lancel instead of himself, knowing full well that it isn't a viable option. He has good reasons to make this pretend offer: it's face-saving for him, it eases his qualms about marrying so young a girl, he hopes she will think better of him for having done so. And it costs him nothing, since there's no chance that anyone other than himself will be wed to Sansa

I disagree. I'm kind of at odds with what you are saying here, so maybe you could clarify? 

The way I'm understanding what you are saying is that ultimately Tyrion had no choice in the matter & would be wed to Sansa regardless of what he agreed to. If that's true, it's my opinion, that he then cannot be held responsible for most of his actions that were done to follow through with the marriage, because he had no choice. In that case it doesn't make much sense to me for him to tell Sansa this to make him self look better or to offer her a 'fake' second choice. He could simply tell her he is as forced as she is into this marriage. 

On the other hand, if you believe (as I do) that he can refuse, albeit not without consequences, but chooses not to, then it logically follows that if he refuses there has to be a back up Lannister she can be married to, making the offered choice genuine. 

48 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

First of all: "You are kind, my lord". One one level, yes, she is recognizing Tyrion's kindness. But it's also a standard courtesy which can be meaningless in its essence. How many times have all of us answered the question "how are you?" with "fine" even if we're not actually fine? So, explicitly she's acknowledging kindness but implicitly, she's also saying the correct, polite, socially-acceptable thing, as she as been so relentlessly taught all of her 12 years.

Agreed. I would point out though, that this isn't the only time she recognizes he is kind. At another point when he is telling her that he is no Knight of Flowers but neither is he Joffrey, she says I know, you've been kind to me, or something to that affect. 

49 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Secondly, I would like to emphasize the nature of Sansa's acquiescense: "You are kind, my lord," she said, defeated. Defeated. She's simply recognizing the inevitable. She has no way out and she finally understands that. At this point, the societal rules governing her behavior take over completely and she has to abide by them

Also agreed. She does not have anyway out of marrying a Lannister in some form or another. She knows this & so does Tyrion. 

50 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

All of Sansa's other consents on the wedding night are of the same nature, I would argue. Explicitly she's consenting, but implicitly she's bowing to the inevitable. She's behaving in the way a girl of her social class and training is expected - required - to behave. She's a firm believer in her society's hierarchical structure (indeed, since she's only 12 she has neither the life experience nor the wherewithal to question or doubt such structures) in which marriage makes the husband and wife one person and the husband is that person

Indeed. The issue being that Tyrion is not in her head. Outwardly she gives every sign of consenting (or as much as any woman in that setting has agency to consent) regardless of her reasons. We understand that she doesn't want to do this, Tyrion likely sees this as well. But he gives her every opportunity to come clean, be honest with him, understand that he isn't forcing her against her will & she does not. I don't blame her for that, he is, after all, a Lannister & someone she does not trust to be true to his word. 

It becomes clear to Tyrion that she is only doing her duty & while that isn't necessarily the way he wants it, he is willing to do his duty as well. At the very first sign of outward distress on Sansa's part Tyrion stops, vows to never touch her again unless she asks him to, & remains true to that. 

55 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

think there is a pretty sizable gulf between "consent" and "bowing to the inevitable". I would call Sansa's consent "consent with an asterisk"

Indeed, even excluding the fact that no noble woman really has the opportunity to assent or dissent to consummating their marriage, Sansa's situation is even a step further because she is being forced to marry, by enemies of her house. 

Tyrion, though, did not do the forcing. He offered her every choice that was within his power to offer her so that she could avoid marrying him & avoid consummating that marriage & at each step along the way Sansa repeatedly tells him, no she does not want him to call off the marriage & yes, she is agreeing to do her duty where the marriage is concerned. 

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38 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I'd like to offer a different interpretation of the Tyrion/Sansa wedding and wedding night, minefield though it is. I'm not doing so in opposition to corbon's analysis, but in addition to it. I think that character's interactions can have multiple levels which are operating simultaneously, especially when GRRM is the author.

In ASOS, Sansa III, Tyrion says:

I would posit that Tyrion is not saying this in 100% good faith here. He's clearly operating to his father's dictates ("My lord father felt it necessary"). But I think there is good reason to believe that Tyrion understands that the option of Lancel is a non-starter and won't happen no matter what Sansa says. For some background that illuminates Tyrion's pseudo-offer of Lancel, here's the background from Tyrion III:

This discussion of possible other bridegrooms is a charade and Tyrion understands it to be a charade, a bit of byplay. Tywin makes it clearer still with his direct order which is the final sentence (in more ways than one!) of the chapter, shorn of any pretense: Sansa will be wed to Tyrion and nobody else, no matter what.

I don't think you've thought that thought all the way through. Perhaps I'm wrong and you can explain another meaning.

I agree its a charade a byplay for his benefit, because they really do want him to marry Sansa. But what does it actually mean? I read it as indicating that there is still a possible alternative should he really wish to take a stand - indeed, its that very alternative possibility that removes the power of his potential stand.
Should Tyrion defy his father and refuse to marry Sansa, Tywin can't actually make him the same way he could when he was 13. Tywin does actually need a compliant bridegroom for this ploy of state to succeed.
But if Tyrion takes such a stand, he just double loses, because Sansa can be just given to another Lannister, and no doubt treated worse than he would treat her. Thats the true subtext of the byplay - what else is its purpose?

The final direct order only has power because of the byplay.

38 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

The next thing concerns Sansa's consent. ASOS, Sansa III:

First of all: "You are kind, my lord". One one level, yes, she is recognizing Tyrion's kindness. But it's also a standard courtesy which can be meaningless in its essence. How many times have all of us answered the question "how are you?" with "fine" even if we're not actually fine? So, explicitly she's acknowledging kindness but implicitly, she's also saying the correct, polite, socially-acceptable thing, as she as been so relentlessly taught all of her 12 years.

This is simply not true, or at least, it is not true that she's saying it as a courtesy only.
We have already been in Sansa's own head where she acknowledged to herself in her thoughts that Tyrion had been kind to her in the past (saved her from a beating) and was not as bad as the other Lannisters.

38 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Secondly, I would like to emphasize the nature of Sansa's acquiescense: "You are kind, my lord," she said, defeated. Defeated. She's simply recognizing the inevitable. She has no way out and she finally understands that. At this point, the societal rules governing her behavior take over completely and she has to abide by them.

All of Sansa's other consents on the wedding night are of the same nature, I would argue. Explicitly she's consenting, but implicitly she's bowing to the inevitable. She's behaving in the way a girl of her social class and training is expected - required - to behave. She's a firm believer in her society's hierarchical structure (indeed, since she's only 12 she has neither the life experience nor the wherewithal to question or doubt such structures) in which marriage makes the husband and wife one person and the husband is that person.

I think there is a pretty sizable gulf between "consent" and "bowing to the inevitable". I would call Sansa's consent "consent with an asterisk".

Indeed, we are in full agreement. Thats why we have changed the word to assent, rather than consent, because consent is confusing since it both exists outwardly from her words and actions, and cannot exist inwardly due to her situation, at the same time. You might say its an attempt to be as clear as possible in a difficult and complex situation.

However its not true that she has no options, no choices. Tyrion gives her possibilities. She rejects them - I believe due more to the psychological hold over her established by Cersei and Joffrey than anything else - but none-the-less, Tyrion is bound morally to accept her choices when he gives them to her - given that neither of them have the power to offer choices she'd truly prefer.

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Thank you @corbon for having taken the time and effort for this! No matter, if we agree or disagree this is a really well-written, well structured post! So I say merci for that. I see your logic, I disagree on several points however.

I don't know, if I'm going to answer yet, because I'm not so sure how fruitful it will be, and I'm quite enjoying the peaceful life rn lol. 

I guess I've shared most of my points already here: 

But I very much appreciate, that you answered me! 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

It was argued in that thread that Tyrion was a rapist, a molester, an abuser of Sansa.

I do however wanna clarify, that I've never called Tyrion a rapist of Sansa (nor have I ever seen someone else do- definitely not in that thread) simply for the fact, that he doesn't rape her.

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Thank you @corbon for having taken the time and effort for this! No matter, if we agree or disagree this is a really well-written, well structured post! So I say merci for that. I see your logic, I disagree on several points however.

You are welcome. In that old thread, it jumped from pg20 to page 23-and-closed overnight, from my timezone perspective, so I had no opportunity to reply to a number of things that were said.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I don't know, if I'm going to answer yet, because I'm not so sure how fruitful it will be, and I'm quite enjoying the peaceful life rn lol. 

It may be more fruitful now, when emotions are more relaxed after time away.
Or it may just ramp them up again.
I don't know. 
You are free to choose not to reopen further.

I don't want to make replies to some of the things said at the end there, precisely because they were said in a different atmosphere. And I feel that if I reply to them here now, I'm reopening that atmosphere with them, which may not be to the benefit of discourse.

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think your line of thought leads to believing that Tyrion could not refuse. That he would be forced in some way if he tried to refuse. 

No, that isn't what I meant. What I meant was more like what you said in your paragraph previous to this one, with the persuasion. They're manuevering him. They would be in a bit of a pickle after all, if Tyrion went ahead and outright refused to marry her. Sansa needs to be wedded and bedded (to forestall a possible annulment) in order for the Lannisters to claim the prize she represents. And it needs to be done soon; there is still a war going on and their fortunes could change rapidly. They need the deed to be done.

 

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

On the other hand, if you believe (as I do) that he can refuse, albeit not without consequences, but chooses not to, then it logically follows that if he refuses there has to be a back up Lannister she can be married to, making the offered choice genuine. 

Who would that back-up Lannister be, though? The other candidates they mention are unavailable: the twins and Tion are currently imprisoned prisoners of war while Lancel, despite being physically present, would not be able to make the marriage final by consummating it. From Tywin's point of view, it really has to be Tyrion.

By my reading, the alternate bridegrooms are pretty clearly not meant by Kevan and Tywin to be taken seriously as candidates. Which is why Tyrion doesn't either.

 

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The way I'm understanding what you are saying is that ultimately Tyrion had no choice in the matter & would be wed to Sansa regardless of what he agreed to.

No, I'm not saying that. I don't think Tyrion was forced into it. I think Tyrion agreed to it. I think he grew to like the idea. I think he wanted to marry her and get her to fall in love with him and be lord of Winterfell.

 

Edited by The Ned's Little Girl
changed "imprisoned" to "prisoners of war"

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6 hours ago, corbon said:

I don't think you've thought that thought all the way through. Perhaps I'm wrong and you can explain another meaning.

I hope my reply to Lyanna <3Rhaegar explains it well enough.

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

This is simply not true, or at least, it is not true that she's saying it as a courtesy only.

Yes, that's why I didn't argue that she said it as a courtesy only. My point was that she said it as a courtesy also. Recall at the very beginning of my post when I explained that I think character's interactions have differing levels of meaning that are operating simultaneously. That's why I was careful to write things like, "Explicitly she said this, but implicitly there's also this interpretation of her words".

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Indeed, we are in full agreement. Thats why we have changed the word to assent, rather than consent, because consent is confusing since it both exists outwardly from her words and actions, and cannot exist inwardly due to her situation, at the same time. You might say its an attempt to be as clear as possible in a difficult and complex situation.

You are right; assent is a better word than consent. I still abide by "assent with asterisk" though. I'm inclined to take the view that Sansa, by dint of being hopelessly well-trained in the behavior required of a noble lady, was simply unequipped to conceive that she had other choices or options. She's the rule-follower; she doesn't have the life experience (being only 12) to realize that the social rules that have governed her entire life are artificial constructs that she doesn't have to obey. As far as she knows, there is only one narrow path for her to follow and that is to submit herself fully to her lord and master. One cannot choose what one cannot conceive.

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55 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I hope my reply to Lyanna <3Rhaegar explains it well enough.

Not really. See below.

55 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Yes, that's why I didn't argue that she said it as a courtesy only. My point was that she said it as a courtesy also. Recall at the very beginning of my post when I explained that I think character's interactions have differing levels of meaning that are operating simultaneously. That's why I was careful to write things like, "Explicitly she said this, but implicitly there's also this interpretation of her words".

Ok. I just don't see the relevance of that point unless it is to imply that she didn't actually mean it. There are often multiple layers of meaning in conversations and phrases.

55 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

You are right; assent is a better word than consent. I still abide by "assent with asterisk" though.

As do we all. Its laborious to write that every time, so simple assent does the job, differing from consent.

The point is we are examining Tyrion's behavior and responsibility here, not Sansa's. Tyrion doesn't get the asterisk. He gets what she gives him, nothing more. 

55 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I'm inclined to take the view that Sansa, by dint of being hopelessly well-trained in the behavior required of a noble lady, was simply unequipped to conceive that she had other choices or options. She's the rule-follower; she doesn't have the life experience (being only 12) to realize that the social rules that have governed her entire life are artificial constructs that she doesn't have to obey. As far as she knows, there is only one narrow path for her to follow and that is to submit herself fully to her lord and master. One cannot choose what one cannot conceive.

I agree in general, but not entirely. I think, for example that she could have conceived changing the marriage to Lancel as Tyrion offered - once he offered it. It shouldn't affect the politics of the match, so should be an acceptable alternate, and Tyrion should have the power to arrange it - the Lannister's can't very well force him to act against his will in this area and expect to keep the political gain. They do need a willing bridegroom, so Tyrion does actually have this power. Sansa's not stupid, just afraid.
It wasn't an inability to understand or accept it as possible that stopped her, it was the psychological hold that Cersei and Joffrey had over her.

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

No, that isn't what I meant. What I meant was more like what you said in your paragraph previous to this one, with the persuasion. They're manuevering him. They would be in a bit of a pickle after all, if Tyrion went ahead and outright refused to marry her. Sansa needs to be wedded and bedded (to forestall a possible annulment) in order for the Lannisters to claim the prize she represents. And it needs to be done soon; there is still a war going on and their fortunes could change rapidly. They need the deed to be done.

Yes, but although they need the deed done, they don't actually need it to be Tyrion to gain the political capital it represents.

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Who would that back-up Lannister be, though? The other candidates they mention are unavailable: the twins and Tion are currently imprisoned prisoners of war while Lancel, despite being physically present, would not be able to make the marriage final by consummating it. From Tywin's point of view, it really has to be Tyrion.

Not true. There are more Lannisters. Both Ser Daven and Ser Lucion would be suitable, especially Ser Daven who is not yet matched to a Frey at this stage. There are probably even more, unnamed, suitable Lannisters from even more distant branches. Its a large family.
Those two are older, from a slightly more distant branches so likely more independently minded and less controllable. Thus they are less suitable than younger and closer family, but they will still suffice in political terms if necessary.

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

By my reading, the alternate bridegrooms are pretty clearly not meant by Kevan and Tywin to be taken seriously as candidates. Which is why Tyrion doesn't either.

Those particular candidates, no. But the family is larger than that and the point is made. If it had no teeth, it wouldn't be a point at all.

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

No, I'm not saying that. I don't think Tyrion was forced into it. I think Tyrion agreed to it. I think he grew to like the idea. I think he wanted to marry her and get her to fall in love with him and be lord of Winterfell.

Sure.
But at the same time, he really didn't want Sansa Stark for the reasons he clearly enunciated. She's not actually what he wants in a partner, at least not at that time (she could be in the future in different circumstances). Only after the little byplay conversation did he start considering that he might be able to make it work with her - as much or more because she was going to suffer her fate anyway and he knew he would be better for her than any other Lannister would, as for the rewards.
Like I said, the byplay made it clear refusing was a lose-lose option for him. Some one else would get the rewards, Sansa would still suffer her fate (but worse for her) and he'd be further into the family bad books. That was the whole purpose of the conversation. Without that idea, there is no purpose to that conversation. 

Simply put, you need to explain what the point of that conversation is. Its only value is to persuade him not to refuse, and the only thrust it has in that direction is that if he refuses he misses out on the prize and she still suffers the same fate.
 

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11 hours ago, corbon said:

I don't want to make replies to some of the things said at the end there, precisely because they were said in a different atmosphere. And I feel that if I reply to them here now, I'm reopening that atmosphere with them, which may not be to the benefit of discourse.

Alright. I definitely have called Tyrion a rapist in another context regarding that slave girl, but not in regards to Sansa. I've said he molested her.

11 hours ago, corbon said:

It may be more fruitful now, when emotions are more relaxed after time away.

It's not really "an emotional thing", just more a question of how to approach it to not just recreate the thread from before. I guess all in all I just thought, when I first read Clash, that Tyrion was a better man than this, that he right from the beginning did not want to make her do this, on the first night, without them even knowing each other and not like this. That he would risk something for her, risk something to do the right thing from the beginning (it's not, that he didn't have time to think about what to do), the same way he had risked something, when he was fucking Shae. But in the end this marriage is an act of war against the Starks (which makes it so cruel for Sansa as Tyrion notes) and Tyrion is a Lannister. So "finalizing" this marriage is in Tyrion's interest as much as it is in the rest of the Lannister's.

If this was a "normal" arranged marriage, I'd agree with a lot of what you have said (like NLG I also wouldn't use the word consent though, if her father forced her into it), if she was forced into it by her father/brother then the guilt would be mostly with them.

But it is not only a forced marriage, but also an unlawful one, the same way that executing Ned was unlawful. Joffrey is not the legitimate king, he is a bastard and Ned Stark was no traitor and therefore was executed unlawfully. Resulting in his daughter being imprisoned unlawfully for a crime Ned stark did not commit. And because Joffrey is just a bastard, he does not have the right marry Sansa off as his ward, she has a brother, who has the right to do so. Tyrion knows all of this. By wanting to finalize/consummate the marriage he is not only complicit in this crime against the Starks, but also actively plans to play his part in it.

Marrying Sansa is as wrong as executing Ned, since the former results out of the later.

It is not a normal arranged marriage Tyrion is marrying his hostage.

"Her eyes widened. “She wouldn’t—” “—kill Jaime? Why not? What would you do if Joffrey and Tommen were murdered?” “I still hold Sansa!” the queen declared. “We still hold Sansa,” he corrected her,"

A Clash of Kings, Tyrion 11

He is marrying his hostage, who has been imprisoned for a year even though her father has done nothing wrong (which Tyrion is privy to). She has been physically and emotionally abused for a year (and he didn't go out of his way to stop it, even though he suspected Joff would treat Sansa badly, not until he run into to her abuse by change. So the girl he claims was his hostage, was still being abused for half a year, while being in his captivity) And he himself sees her as a child and think she is too young for marriage.

All of the above IMO would have been reason enough to decide from the beginning to put her well-being, before the one of the Lannisters' (take a risk for her) and decide beforehand no matter what to at least give her more time. Especially since he thinks she is going to stay his wife forever.

But the Lannister interests were more important. It is a war act. I just wonder, if Sansa looked like Lollys, if he'd felt the same way.

But it's fine, if we disagree, it's just a book- the world won't end because of it ;)

 

Edited by Nagini's Neville
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On 5. April 2020 at 12:49 PM, Springwatch said:

Tyrion behaves less badly than the majority of Westeros bridegrooms, who would commit marital rape without much hesitation

But this is not a normal arranged marriage, but a forced one. He is marrying a girl he himself thinks is too young for marriage, is his abused hostage, because of a crime her father did never commit. She is not the ward of Joffrey, because he is a  no legitimate king-just a bastard. Only her brother has the right to marry her off.

If executing Ned Stark was wrong, so is marrying Sansa. The later results out of the former. 

It is an act of war (that's why it's much more crueler for Sansa, than a normal arranged marriage, that would usually benefit her family and House, now she is forced to aid in their downfall). And by wanting to consummate/finalize the marriage Tyrion is contributing his part.

IMO all of those points should be taken into consideration, when judging Tyrion's behavior on their wedding night. 

I'd also argue there are a lot of men, who would refuse such a marriage in the first place or at least wouldn't want to consummate it right away (as it was actually custom with a girl that young in the actual Middle Ages). For sure not Ned Stark, Robb, Jon, Davos and Sam.

But maybe my standards for Tyrion were just too high.

Edited by Nagini's Neville
edited one sentence out; Spelling

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49 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But yeah, maybe my standards for Tyrion were just too high. 

Interviewer: Do you have a favorite character?

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

This interview is from 1999 when he was still writing ASOS which was published one year later. So I think Tyrion is not supposed to be one of the good guys and although he is obviously not as bad as Tywin, Cersei and Joff, he is on their side and does his best to keep his family in power. Imo not trusting him was one of Sansa's best decisions.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Alright. I definitely have called Tyrion a rapist in another context regarding that slave girl, but not in regards to Sansa. I've said he molested her.

It's not really "an emotional thing", just more a question of how to approach it to not just recreate the thread from before. I guess all in all I just thought, when I first read Clash, that Tyrion was a better man than this, that he right from the beginning did not want to make her do this, on the first night, without them even knowing each other and not like this. That he would risk something for her, risk something to do the right thing from the beginning (it's not, that he didn't have time to think about what to do), the same way he had risked something, when he was fucking Shae. But in the end this marriage is an act of war against the Starks (which makes it so cruel for Sansa as Tyrion notes) and Tyrion is a Lannister. So "finalizing" this marriage is in Tyrion's interest as much as it is in the rest of the Lannister's.

If this was a "normal" arranged marriage, I'd agree with a lot of what you have said (like NLG I also wouldn't use the word consent though, if her father forced her into it), if she was forced into it by her father/brother then the guilt would be mostly with them.

But it is not only a forced marriage, but also an unlawful one, the same way that executing Ned was unlawful. Joffrey is not the legitimate king, he is a bastard and Ned Stark was no traitor and therefore was executed unlawfully. Resulting in his daughter being imprisoned unlawfully for a crime Ned stark did not commit. And because Joffrey is just a bastard, he does not have the right marry Sansa off as his ward, she has a brother, who has the right to do so. Tyrion knows all of this. By wanting to finalize/consummate the marriage he is not only complicit in this crime against the Starks, but also actively plans to play his part in it.

Marrying Sansa is as wrong as executing Ned, since the former results out of the later.

It is not a normal arranged marriage Tyrion is marrying his hostage.

"Her eyes widened. “She wouldn’t—” “—kill Jaime? Why not? What would you do if Joffrey and Tommen were murdered?” “I still hold Sansa!” the queen declared. “We still hold Sansa,” he corrected her,"

A Clash of Kings, Tyrion 11

He is marrying his hostage, who has been imprisoned for a year even though her father has done nothing wrong (which Tyrion is privy to). She has been physically and emotionally abused for a year (and he didn't go out of his way to stop it, even though he suspected Joff would treat Sansa badly, not until he run into to her abuse by change. So the girl he claims was his hostage, was still being abused for half a year, while being in his captivity) And he himself sees her as a child and think she is too young for marriage.

All of the above IMO would have been reason enough to decide from the beginning to put her well-being, before the one of the Lannisters' (take a risk for her) and decide beforehand no matter what to at least give her more time. Especially since he thinks she is going to stay his wife forever.

But the Lannister interests were more important. It is a war act. I just wonder, if Sansa looked like Lollys, if he'd felt the same way.

But it's fine, if we disagree, it's just a book- the world won't end because of it ;)

 

Not to ignore your other points but I would like to focus on where I agree to an extent. You brought this up before & I think it's a very interesting point. Sansa behaves as a 'good' wife should, doing her 'duty'. She says 'I am a ward of the throne and it is my duty to marry as he commands' Sansa believes this to be true, but we, and more importantly, Tyrion know it is not true, not legally anyway. 

I get so twisted around when talking about this because I can see if from both angles so to clarify a moment before carrying on in that line of thinking: Joffrey holds the throne. For all intents & purposes he is the King & his word is law, he is the acting ruler of the realm. If we stop there, she is a ward of the throne & legally must do her duty & marry as he commands. BUT we wouldn't be looking at the full picture if we did stop there. The truth of the matter is that he holds that throne by deceit. He is not the rightful heir of Robert Baratheon & thus has no right or power to be holding that throne. I don't know where one cancels out the other & like I said I get all twisted around with it when I start thinking about it but for the purpose of this discussion I'm going to speak in terms of him not having the right or power to hold that throne because I don't think it matters much to the point you were making. 

Continuing on, the point, I believe that you are & were making is that if Sansa knew that Joffrey is a bastard & not Robert's true heir, she would act/react differently. That different action could/would make it clear to Tyrion at a much earlier stage that Sansa does not want to do her duty & is not agreeing to do so, because she does not feel it is her duty. 

This is quite interesting to me because I think there is some merit to that. Sansa behaves as the good girl should, following the rules, doing her duty, doing what is expected of her as a high-born woman in her society. If she was aware that Joffrey has no legal right over her, she may indeed behave differently. She would still be forced to marry a Lannister, of course, but that's not the point. The point is she may have refused Tyrion outright. She may have told him, No, I do not want to consummate this marriage because this marriage is unlawful & I've been forced against my will by someone who has no legal authority to do so. That would in turn, I believe, change Tyrion's behavior as well. 

Now, I think we are going to get into territory where we disagree here but the questions that this brings to mind to me are:

1. Did Tyrion have a moral or legal obligation to tell Sansa the truth of Joffrey? Namely that he is a bastard born of incest & no blood of Robert Baratheon's - I don't think he did. I think his moral & legal obligations should be to his family & more importantly, to himself. It is not in junction with his well-being to tell this secret. Not only would nothing, outside of Sansa perhaps refusing to consummate, come of this it also has a large potential to cause retaliation & harm against him. 

If he, confides in Sansa that Joffrey is a bastard, she still will be forced to marry a Lannister. It will do nothing to remove Joffrey from the throne because even if she could prove Tyrion said it she nor he can prove it's true. So, she would still be married to a Lannister & the Lannisters would still be in power. Now, though, the Lannisters also know that Tyrion is walking around spilling their secret. What is to stop them from killing him for it? I would say nothing, especially in light of the fact that Cersei, we believe, has already tried to have him killed. If he were threatening the entire Lannister dynasty Tywin & Cersei would ensure he paid for it. 

2. Did Tyrion keep this information from Sansa because he knew it would likely make her less compliant in the marriage & consummation? Again, I don't think so. I think it can be argued that he should have known this or that at least he should have thought of this but I think his # 1 motivation for keeping this secret would be the safety of himself & preventing the downfall of his family. In the end, if his family falls, so does he, so he has much & more reason to keep this secret, IMO. 

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But this is not a normal arranged marriage, but a forced one. He is marrying a girl he himself thinks is too young for marriage, is his abused hostage, because of a crime her father did never commit. She is not the ward of Joffrey, because he is a  no legitimate king-just a bastard. Only her brother has the right to marry her off.

If executing Ned Stark was wrong, so is marrying Sansa. The later results out of the former. 

I think we are in muddy waters here as well. She is in a forced marriage, but has not been forced by Tyrion. I think we discussed that pretty to death before & don't want to go in circles with it, just want to throw out my opinion there. As you said, we certainly can disagree :)

The part I think is muddy is; "If executing Ned Stark was wrong, so is marrying Sansa. The later results out of the former."

I agree with that statement & would agree forcing Sansa to marry against her will is wrong whether or not Ned was executed, IMO. 

However, and I want to be very careful here, because I am a big Ned fan & don't want to be misunderstood, Ned did change Robert's will. He did so with very understandable reasons, but he did it anyway. He did try to take the crown from Joffrey, who according to Robert's will, had it been written the way it was stated, is Robert's legal heir. So, in a sense, Ned is guilty of what he stand accused of. There are extenuating circumstances that the Lannisters are not going to allow Ned to include in his public confession, obviously, but he did pretty much what they said he did. That Joffrey is not the blood heir of Robert Baratheon leads me back to my twisted thoughts in the post above so I won't go into that again, but would be very interested in your & @corbon's thoughts, as well as anyone who would like to add their two cents to this. 

I actually just posted almost the same thing in another thread; I think it can be argued that Ned was rightfully imprisoned & rightfully punished. HOWEVER, I would argue that he was wrongfully executed as he made a plea deal of sorts with the crown; confess publicly & be allowed to take the black. The crown did not uphold their end of the deal there. 

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