Tyrion and Sansa

[Elegant Woes]

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I agree there isn't much judgment going on in this thread by neither you or Corbon but unfortunately what I did see was Sansa being given far more agency and responsibility in this situation then she was realistically afforded by her society, the Lannisters and Tyrion himself. By the virtue of being a child and woman, the actions and choices Sansa makes aren't equal to Tyrion's and that should be taken into account. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I agree there isn't much judgment going on in this thread by neither you or Corbon but unfortunately what I did see was Sansa being given far more agency and responsibility in this situation then she was realistically afforded by her society, the Lannisters and Tyrion himself. By the virtue of being a child and woman, the actions and choices she makes aren't equal to Tyrion's and that should be taken into account. 

I guess I feel they have been taken into account. For some background, the original thread was titled 'Why didn't Tyrion consummate the marriage with Sansa' or something to that affect so the conversation started under that question & naturally progressed further. The second time it came up was in the Tyrion & Tysha thread where it was being discussed what responsibility Tyrion holds in the situation with Tysha - not the gang rape itself necessarily but the choices he made to marry her understanding that it would potentially turn out bad (not that he would have known exactly how bad) Nagini's Neville felt as if Corbon & I were holding Tyrion responsible for too much in that case while simultaneously not holding him accountable for enough in the case of Tyrion & Sansa. So, to me I guess, the point of this thread is how much responsibility does Tyrion hold irt the marriage & attempted consummation with Sansa & analyzing his choices in that regard. In an attempt to analyze Tyrion's actions we take a look at what he is seeing from Sansa & her actions, to better understand why Tyrion acted & reacted the way he did. Not to (at least for me) point any blame at Sansa but to explain why, in our opinion, Tyrion's actions at the wedding & the wedding night are understandable. 

He still holds 100% responsibility for his own actions even though they may be understandable (which was the point being made in the Tyrion & Tysha thread, that he still holds responsibility for his own actions) but it logically follows, then, that Sansa is responsible for her own actions as well (of course only the ones she had a choice for) So, she was forced to marry, I certainly don't contend that. I don't feel as if Tyrion holds blame for that particular act though, as he is not the one or part of the group that is forcing her. The rest of the interaction between Tyrion & Sansa show that she was offered choices, as they were available to Tyrion to offer. In short, not that Sansa has some great agency or choice to do as she pleases, but that Tyrion has offered her what is within his power to offer, if that makes sense? 

[Springwatch]

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Acknowledging that the match is a great one for him isn't the same as not having the will to stop it though. 

Right. The two go easily together though.

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What passage/s lead you to believe he "needs, needs, needs the money & power"? 

Seriously? How about everything he says and does before his fall?

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It is real, all of it, he thought, the wars, the intrigues, the great bloody game, and me in the center of it... me, the dwarf, the monster, the one they scorned and laughed at, but now I hold it all, the power, the city, the girl. This is what I was made for, and gods forgive me, but I do love it... [ACOK - TYRION VII]

These things are out of reach for the average dwarf. He is repelled to the core by the lives of Penny and Groat (even hates their names, for being so small).

Additionally. He goes round the country compulsively insulting and enraging important people ('My big mouth will be the death of me, I swear it.') How does he get away with it? He's a Lannister. If that doesn't work, he buys his way out of trouble - buys a messenger at the inn, buys Bronn, buys Mord, buys the Mountain wildlings. He wouldn't look half so clever without endless moneybags.

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

How can she easily see a switch of bridegrooms is not going to happen? 

Well I can see it. The wedding is a big event, as shown by the fine clothes, the premier venue and a-list guests. People who organise such events don't like postponing them, due to the heavy loss of money and prestige. Lannisters especially are bad losers. It cannot be assumed that a reserve bridegroom is waiting in the wings - the wedding would be a laughing-stock if there was.

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't recall the last time Tywin threatened to throw him out of the family for disobedience but he certainly hasn't done so here. His threat was clear & concise - If Tyrion does not agree to marry Sansa, Tywin will marry her to someone else. 

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... he had cherished a dream that one day he would travel the world ... Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son's sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at the same age.... And when Tyrion reminded him that in ten days he would be a man grown, free to travel where he wished, Lord Tywin had said, "No man is free. Only children and fools think otherwise. Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning." At that the boy's defiance had crumbled.

[ADWD Tyrion III]

 

If young Tyrion disobeyed Tywin in this very insignificant matter, he would be thrown out of the family. And the thing is, Tywin doesn't change. He hasn't got a character arc, he's the same pitiless monster from the Rains of Castermere, to the murder of Rhaegar's family, to the Red Wedding.

From his children, he requires obedience. Tyrion's whoring was indulged for a while, but now Tywin is cracking down hard: banning Shae; flogging Alayaya/Shae; saying, 'You are done with whores. The next one I find in your bed, I'll hang', and finally, telling Tyrion it's time he settled and had children. It's a campaign, and Tywin will not tolerate being thwarted.

So to Sansa's wedding, which is not a small matter, since Tywin plans that through her, the Lannisters will inherit the North. This is a massive move in the game of thrones, and if Tyrion rebels even in something as important as this, then what use is he to the family? He's a lost cause, get rid of him.

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I would also be curious to know the evidence that supports Tyrion not having the will to stop the marriage.

As above. The impulse might be genuine, but if Tywin threatens to throw him out, he must give in. He can't imagine not being a Lannister.

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If Sansa had said yes, I do want you to stop this marriage what do you think Tyrion would have done at that point? 

Easy. He would say, ok, I'll go and tell my father.  And then, after a short or long interval, he would come back saying, sorry my love, I really tried, but it is the king's command, we have to go through with it.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

Right. The two go easily together though

I think it depends on what you mean by that. Sure, someone is going to be less willing to give up something that is good for them than something that is bad for them but to state with a certainty that he didn't possess the will to stop the marriage because of what he would be losing, even in light of him saying he would, requires some sort of evidence to be convincing to me. 

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Seriously? How about everything he says and does before his fall?

Yes, seriously. He says many things through out the book. I suppose I could quote thing she says that have naught to do with money & power but it would be much easier if you quoted or advised which specific thoughts or words from Tyrion lead you to believe he needs money & power. He is a good aristocrat, he certainly needs money to survive, as much as anyone does but I don't think that is what you were suggesting. I understood you to mean that he needs money & power on an emotional level to the point that he cannot and will not refuse something that is providing him such. 

7 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

These things are out of reach for the average dwarf. He is repelled to the core by the lives of Penny and Groat (even hates their names, for being so small).

Yeah, they are out of reach for the average dwarf, I made that point earlier. Being a Lannister allows him to live a much more comfortable life than virtually any other dwarf in the land. I think there is a far stretch from being repelled at the lives of other dwarves to needing money & power on the level you suggested & then another jump to make that equate he will not refuse this marriage if Sansa asked him to. 

12 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Additionally. He goes round the country compulsively insulting and enraging important people ('My big mouth will be the death of me, I swear it.') How does he get away with it? He's a Lannister. If that doesn't work, he buys his way out of trouble - buys a messenger at the inn, buys Bronn, buys Mord, buys the Mountain wildlings. He wouldn't look half so clever without endless moneybags.

For sure, he does have a big mouth & it's very lucky for him that he has the moneybags but he has those moneybags with or without his marriage to Sansa. His father has not threatened to disown him or remove his money flow if he doesn't marry Sansa. 

13 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Well I can see it. The wedding is a big event, as shown by the fine clothes, the premier venue and a-list guests. People who organise such events don't like postponing them, due to the heavy loss of money and prestige. Lannisters especially are bad losers. It cannot be assumed that a reserve bridegroom is waiting in the wings - the wedding would be a laughing-stock if there was.

It wasn't an especially big event, it was held relatively in secret because they didn't want the Tyrell's to know until it was over. It would be an inconvenience if Tyrion refused, certainly. It would likely anger Cersei & Tywin. I don't think anyone, my self included assumed there was a reserve bridegroom waiting in the wings. The wedding was a laughing stock anyway. I don't see these points making any difference as to whether or not Tyrion could/would refuse & if Sansa could/would be married to another Lannister but the question was: How can Sansa see a switch of bridegrooms is not going to happen? 

Keep in mind, this exchange is done in Sansa's POV & not once does she think anything about the offer being insincere because there is no replacement, because the people organizing these events don't like postponing them, because the Lannisters are bad losers, because there is no alternative bridegroom - or for any reason at all. In fact she appears to believe it is genuine, as she considers it in her mind. 

19 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

If young Tyrion disobeyed Tywin in this very insignificant matter, he would be thrown out of the family. And the thing is, Tywin doesn't change. He hasn't got a character arc, he's the same pitiless monster from the Rains of Castermere, to the murder of Rhaegar's family, to the Red Wedding.

Indeed he is but I think we have to ask, if he was this clear & concise about what would happen if Tyrion disobeyed his father's command in this; why would he not tell him the same thing in re to marrying Sansa? The only answer I can think of is because disownment is not a punishment he is willing to exact on Tyrion for refusing to marry Sansa. 

After all, we do know of a time he disobeyed his father in a much more significant manner; marrying Tysha, and yet he was not disowned. So there really is not a shred of evidence to suggest he would have disowned him for refusing Sansa. 

22 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

From his children, he requires obedience. Tyrion's whoring was indulged for a while, but now Tywin is cracking down hard: banning Shae; flogging Alayaya/Shae; saying, 'You are done with whores. The next one I find in your bed, I'll hang', and finally, telling Tyrion it's time he settled and had children. It's a campaign, and Tywin will not tolerate being thwarted.

Agreed, but his punishment or threat is not always to disown him. Iirc the only time he has threatened such is the time you posted. His threats or punishments seem to change with the offense he believes Tyrion is making. 

I haven't argued there would be no repercussions for Tyrion if he refused. Tywin doesn't seem to have any qualms with letting Tyrion know up front what exactly his punishment or consequences would be, so if disownment was going to be the punishment for not marrying Sansa there is no reason to believe Tywin wouldn't have said just that, yet he didn't. 

25 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

So to Sansa's wedding, which is not a small matter, since Tywin plans that through her, the Lannisters will inherit the North. This is a massive move in the game of thrones, and if Tyrion rebels even in something as important as this, then what use is he to the family? He's a lost cause, get rid of him.

No, he isn't a lost cause & there is no evidence to suggest Tywin thinks so. I would wager the reason he threatened to disown Tyrion the time he did is because he views what Tyrion was wanting to do as an embarrassment to his name & family - something that bothers him very much. If Tyrion refuses Sansa, Tywin can have someone else married to her & keep Tyrion for another politically made match in the future. Not to mention Tyrion serves his house in other manners so is hardly a lost cause or useless. 

I understand your line of thinking, the issue is that there isn't one thing to say this is Tywin's line of thinking & there are things to say this wasn't his line of thinking. 

28 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

As above. The impulse might be genuine, but if Tywin threatens to throw him out, he must give in. He can't imagine not being a Lannister.

Possibly, if Tywin threatened to throw him out, he would have went through with the marriage regardless of his offer to Sansa but what difference does that make? He wasn't threatened to be thrown out, and nothing suggests to us that he thought he might be; not his thoughts later when we are in his POV, not Tywin's words, not Sansa's thoughts or words. Tyrion appears to be giving this offer in earnest & Sansa does not question his earnestness. 

31 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Easy. He would say, ok, I'll go and tell my father.  And then, after a short or long interval, he would come back saying, sorry my love, I really tried, but it is the king's command, we have to go through with it.

What makes this scenario more likely than Tyrion actually refusing after giving the offer to Sansa? To reiterate: Tywin did not threaten to throw Tyrion out, Tywin did threaten to marry Sansa to someone else. Tyrion does have concern for Sansa, as shown in his actions & words & offers a choice to her that was given to him; to marry another Lannister. There is nothing in his thoughts or words to suggest the offer isn't genuine & Sansa appears to think it's genuine as well. 

We have to assume way too much & go against the text we have to believe the offer was not genuine. We have to assume that Tywin would threaten to throw Tyrion out upon his refusal, against the text we have where Tyrion is offering objections & Tywin does not threaten to throw him out. We have to assume that Tyrion also knows of this supposed, un-stated threat to be thrown out in even though we have no thoughts or words of his suggesting such. We have to assume that Tyrion is playing Sansa false in order to make himself look better against the text & his character showing he is pretty up front & honest with her about the whole thing. We have to assume that Sansa also understands not only the un-stated, supposed threat & what that would mean for Tyrion but also that there is no replacement for Tyrion, against the text where it is noted that if Tyrion refuses he will be replaced. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

12 hours ago, corbon said:

You explained it clearly I think, I just don't think this is accurate, The reasoning behind it is flawed. I'll go through that below.

If you are right, then everything Tyrion does all day and all evening is a lie. It makes a nonsense of him risking his skin (literally) to protect her from the bedding, it makes a nonsense of him making himself ultimately vulnerable to her rejection.

If you are wrong, then you have no point at all here.

I don't think it's a question of accuracy or flawed reasoning or of being wrong. My basis for interpreting Tyrion is skeptical, gives him less benefit of the doubt and not taking his words at face value without corroboration, as it were. Your basis is less skeptical, more benefit of the doubt, etc. The resulting analyses are going to be at variance with each other.

That's fine.

And below will be my last comment in this topic.

12 hours ago, corbon said:

Listen to yourself. Its not lying.
You want Tyrion to break down all his objections and reasoning, the motivations for and against and explain everything to Sansa in detail? While they stand there in public waiting to go to the Altar. Thats insane. 
You demand that he frighten her more by telling her that he does want her body, her title, her lands, despite the fact that those aren't the things he wants most, and he's willing to give them up? Thats despicable.

1) "Listen to yourself. It's not lying."

Listen to yourself. I literally said the exact opposite of that. You even underlined the part where I said it's not lying ("there's no way I could characterize that as lying").

2) The rest of it, where in the hell did that come from? You just made all that up! I "want"? I "demand"? I didn't say anything resembling that in any way, shape or form! Feel free to call it insane or despicable if I actually do say that, but unless or until I do, keep your insulting judgments to yourself.

 

[corbon]

22 hours ago, corbon said:

It is dishonest to say he's sacrificing her wellbeing, since his choices are irrelevant in her wellbeing - except where he chooses to make her wellbeing as good as it possibly can in the circumstances.

15 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Also could you please stop calling my opinions dishonest! I find that rather offensive. I understand you have a different opinion and that's fine, but I'm also not calling your opinion's dishonest and suggesting you are lying, just because I disagree with you! First of all it's not true, second of all morally judging other posters, just because you disagree is not appropriate, either let's stick to the content and to specifics or not do this at all.

Thats an argument, not an opinion. There is a difference. I'm not calling you a liar. A dishonest argument is when you say something deceptive because it looks entirely reasonable but is based on a fallacy. 

On 4/7/2020 at 1:17 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

Here you say it yourself: Tyrion's priority is to protect his House and himself and therefore he is willing sacrifice the well-being of an completely innocent child.

That looks reasonable, because if his priority is protecting his house and himself then protecting Sansa is by definition a lower priority and can fall by the wayside.
But, Tywin and Cersei are sacrificing Sansa's well-being. It is a fallacy to claim that Tyrion is sacrificing Sansa's well-being.

On 4/7/2020 at 1:17 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm not suggesting, that he should tell her Joffrey is a bastard, but to consider that her asking to undress probably came out of a false sense of duty and was not her indeed agreeing, but feeling she has no other choice, because she thinks of herself as the ward of the King.  

First, it doesn't matter why she asked if she should undress. the detailed facts in the background are irrelevant to both of them at this point. The wedding is done, the bedding ceremony has been thankfully avoided, but they both accept that the thing is not yet finished. They are both committed to the path now, the why is irrelevant at this point. 

Second, he's already given her a direct out, which she declined. He's delayed and prevaricated, but at every instance she'd indicated her will is to press forward (and get it over with).

Third, that happens to be an actual legal fact. yoru whole argument around that is null and void anyway, as explained.
There are clouds around it, some of which Tyrion suspect and some of which he is clueless about. But its not reasonable to expect him to operate against the law due to his suspicion when the 'fact' of the law and the current situation is settled already. 
Joffrey should not be King, and Sansa should not be his ward. But he is, and she is, and her father publicly admitted his treachery (which wasn't actually the real treachery he committed). 

On 4/7/2020 at 1:17 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO this is the least he could have done for her after all his family has put her through.

I note that you have refused to answer any of the questions I posed you. Why is that?

15 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yes, he could. By risking something for her like I have mentioned before. Please look at #24

That wouldn't improve her wellbeing though, would it? In fact it would lessen it.

Plus, he actually offered to do exactly that, and she turned him down. 

 

[corbon]

15 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@corbon You are right Tyrion is being held to a higher standard

I don't think I've ever complained that. In fact I search the first three pages for every instance of the letters "high" and I haven't said or complained that (perhaps in one of the edited posts before it was edited, but I don't think so there either, though there was something similar, but different in one that I removed).

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but I don't think you get why it's being done in the first place. By no means do I speak for either Nagini's Neville or Ned's little girl, and feel free to correct me on this if I am wrong ladies, but from what I understand is that they are doing this

Well, first we have to be clear on what the "this" is. 
What I think they (general, not specific to either of them, specifics depend on the post by post scenario) but 'that side' in general) are doing is using irrational and flawed arguments to reach the place they are at and refusing to address discussion about their arguments. No one, for example, has answered any of the fairly simple questions I asked (in an attempt to go back to basics politely instead fo just shredding their arguments combatively).
Its hard to do this. We're all at where we are at in our thoughts. Its hard to go back and reexamine some fundamentals that underpin out thoughts - and risky too - what if we are wrong.

I understand that the same text can be read with different 'accents' and lead to different interpretations. that part of fair enough, initially. But that doesn't mean that all 'accents' are equal and that all interpretations are equal. We examine deeper to test the 'accents' for validity. 
 

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to Tyrion because at the beginning of this thread it was argued by someone that Tyrion was holding Sansa's best interest by marrying her.

Was it in her best interest to marry Tyrion, or to be married off to a different Lannister?

Tyrion certainly doesn't want to marry her. He put up multiple arguments why he shouldn't, gave convincing reasons why he didn't want to, and had to be persuaded by a combination of carrot and stick.
In the end, the reasons why he accepts he has to marry her are multiple, and include both self-serving and Sansa-serving ones. 

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By holding Tyrion to a higher standard they are highlighting that no Tyrion does not have her interest at heart. Tyrion has no moral obligation to Sansa,

And yet, it seems that the essence of their position is that Tyrion 'ought' to be holding her best interest above all things. Surely, like Sansa, like anyone he gets to balance his own best interest with doing the least harm to others?
The whole approach here doesn't seem reasonable. Tyrion has no moral obligation to Sansa yet  he is apparently morally obligated to save Sansa from her fate no matter what the cost to him or anyone else, no matter whats actually possible, no matter what she actually indicates to him. Is that an unfair summary? If so, how exactly?

Then we get back to the whole 'save her from her fate' thing. Is it even possible for him to do so? I can't see how. I've explained already the flaws in the whole "choose not to marry her and that saves her" scenario.
All I can see is ways that he can make it less bad for her. What of those did he not take throughout their wedding and wedding night?

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he barely knows her, but at the same time, Sansa also has no obligation to him either. She shouldn't either be judged for responding to him the way she did.

Who has? She's been excused utterly for having any responsibility for her fate because her situation is so bad. I'm not entirely sure thats entirely fair, but I'm happy to stay there anyway.

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And if you are wondering where this so-called judgment is coming from, when people talk about the Sansa and Tyrion situation we are bound to engage in morally judging characters especially on this forum. And considering the delicate topic that is also always being brought up when we talk about this topic, we once again engage in a certain level of blame game whether we want to or not. 

Sure. Although when there is consistent explicit denial of any blame to Sansa, its hard to see where the idea that Sansa is being blamed can reasonably come from...

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The point in the conversation was that if Sansa were aware that Joffrey was a bastard born of incest would it change her behavior on the wedding night. For instance would she feel less compelled to do her 'duty' knowing the King is not Robert's true son? Could/would that, in turn, cause her to tell Tyrion - no, this isn't my duty or no I'm not doing this, not assent  etc. She would be forced to marry either way, but had her behavior on their wedding night been different, so would have Tyrions. 

I doubt it. She's literally been traumatised into this, regardless of the truth.
Look, she actually literally ran in the morning when Cersei told her she was marrying Tyrion. 

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"You can't make me."

"Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same." The queen opened the door. Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Osmund Kettleblack were waiting without, in the white scale armor of the Kingsguard. "Escort Lady Sansa to the sept," she told them. "Carry her if you must, but try not to tear the gown, it was very costly."

Sansa tried to run, but Cersei's handmaid caught her before she'd gone a yard. Ser Meryn Trant gave her a look that made her cringe, but Kettleblack touched her almost gently and said, "Do as you're told, sweetling, it won't be so bad. Wolves are supposed to be brave, aren't they?"
...

"You're not," she flared. "You'll never be."

His face darkened. "I am. I'm your father, and I can marry you to whoever I like. To anyone. You'll marry the pig boy if I say so, and bed down with him in the sty." His green eyes glittered with amusement. "Or maybe I should give you to Ilyn Payne, would you like him better?"

Her heart lurched. "Please, Your Grace," she begged. "If you ever loved me even a little bit, don't make me marry your—"

I don't think knowing that Joffrey is technically illegitimate would make the slightest difference at this stage. 
 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

13 minutes ago, corbon said:

don't think I've ever complained that. In fact I search the first three pages for every instance of the letters "high" and I haven't said or complained that (perhaps in one of the edited posts before it was edited, but I don't think so there either, though there was something similar, but different in one that I removed).

I'm pretty sure NN said she was holding Tyrion to a higher standard. 

17 minutes ago, corbon said:

doubt it. She's literally been traumatised into this, regardless of the truth.
Look, she actually literally ran in the morning when Cersei told her she was marrying Tyrion. 

Tbf I'm not convinced of it, just think it's an interesting point to bat around. 

17 minutes ago, corbon said:

don't think knowing that Joffrey is technically illegitimate would make the slightest difference at this stage

Yeah, it wouldn't make any difference irt the marriage taking place, i'm just wondering if she didn't feel as if Joffrey was the lawful King if she would then feel less inclined to do her duty in the marriage bed. I think she would have ultimately would have exhibited the same behavior but do you think her words would have been different? For instance maybe she wouldn't have offered to disrobe if she knew Joff was not Robert's blood? 

[corbon]

11 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I agree there isn't much judgment going on in this thread by neither you or Corbon but unfortunately what I did see was Sansa being given far more agency and responsibility in this situation then she was realistically afforded by her society, the Lannisters and Tyrion himself. By the virtue of being a child and woman, the actions and choices Sansa makes aren't equal to Tyrion's and that should be taken into account. 

It is taken into account. 
The point is twofold, and nothing to do with Sansa or her level of responsibility,

First, Tyrion gives her those opportunities. He didn't have to do that. He did it anyway. He tried his hardest to make this as easy for her as he possibly could, even at his own risk.

Second, having given her those opportunities, Tyrion doesn't get to abrogate her person-hood, and decide that his belief of her best option is more important than her choices.

[corbon]

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm pretty sure NN said she was holding Tyrion to a higher standard. 

Indeed. But @Elegant Woes said that I said it with the implication that I was complaining of it. 
I didn't say it.
I do understand why Tyrion would be held to a different standard to Sansa in this situation. I hold him to a different standard to her myself.

Its not the 'different' standard I have a problem with, it the inhuman standard he's being held to by people determined to assign him blame regardless of what was actually written.

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tbf I'm not convinced of it, just think it's an interesting point to bat around. 

Sure. But I think (without checking back, I'm doing a lot of that and it takes time and I've actually got some other things to do this morning - apologies in advance if I've got this worng) it was not being 'batted around' but used as an argument (by others, not you). Its not a fit point to be used as an argument the way it was.

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, it wouldn't make any difference irt the marriage taking place, i'm just wondering if she didn't feel as if Joffrey was the lawful King if she would then feel less inclined to do her duty in the marriage bed. I think she would have ultimately would have exhibited the same behavior but do you think her words would have been different? For instance maybe she wouldn't have offered to disrobe if she knew Joff was not Robert's blood? 

Its possible. I don;t think so at all though. She'd already expended her defiance, literally tried to make a break and run for it just before the wedding (before Tyrion was on the scene). The look from Trant then made her cringe, Cersei had already threatened her, Joffrey had further abused and threatened her during the post-wedding reception and thats on top of all the beatings and abuse over the last few months. 
Once she accepted the 'fact' of the wedding, she was defeated. All she had left was her armour, which she refused to take off.
I don't think she had it in her to fight in any way against the wedding and bedding any more.

She did flare up against Joffrey, when he told her Tyrion would bring her to Joffrey's bed whenever he wanted after the wedding. So I could be wrong. But thats a different level, I think. And I think its a natural follow from her understanding that Tyrion is now, both legally and in truth, her protector - and that he would take that duty seriously.. 

[corbon]

7 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I don't think it's a question of accuracy or flawed reasoning or of being wrong. My basis for interpreting Tyrion is skeptical, gives him less benefit of the doubt and not taking his words at face value without corroboration, as it were. Your basis is less skeptical, more benefit of the doubt, etc. The resulting analyses are going to be at variance with each other.

That's fine.

I agree, Coming from different base ponts we have our own biases and interpret the text with those biases influencing us - thus we get different results.

But basis doesn't stop at this first level. Your basis is fine, but the result you are getting from that basis don't hold up to analysis. 
My basis isn't inherently any better than your. But my results stand up to analysis, yours fail the examination. That, and only that, not the basis behind them, makes my result better than yours.

7 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

And below will be my last comment in this topic.

1) "Listen to yourself. It's not lying."

Listen to yourself. I literally said the exact opposite of that. You even underlined the part where I said it's not lying ("there's no way I could characterize that as lying").

I'm pretty confused here. You said its not lying. I suggested you take your own words seriously. How is me saying you said its not lying the opposite of you saying its not lying? Its exactly the same, no?

7 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

2) The rest of it, where in the hell did that come from? You just made all that up! I "want"? I "demand"? I didn't say anything resembling that in any way, shape or form! Feel free to call it insane or despicable if I actually do say that, but unless or until I do, keep your insulting judgments to yourself.

Perhaps I got ahead of case there, didn't apply my own advice from the OP well. My apologies for that. You will note that I phrased them both as questions, not statements, then effectively ruled them out. I'm still at a loss as to exactly what you do expect from him in this conversation.
I'll explain and perhaps you, or someone else if you still refuse, can explain where I went wrong.

Quote

And there's another thing I just thought of about Tyrion not dealing with Sansa in good faith. It's when he says, "You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did." So - technically - Tyrion is correct that he did not ask. He made objections, to be sure, but he was able to overcome them to the point where he agreed freely to marry her. So to then present himself as an unwilling or reluctant bridegroom - well, there's no way I could characterize that as lying but it's hardly absolutely truthful either.

20 hours ago, corbon said:

You want Tyrion to break down all his objections and reasoning, the motivations for and against and explain everything to Sansa in detail? While they stand there in public waiting to go to the Altar.<missing question mark here, sorry> Thats insane. 

What exactly is Tyrion supposed to say here? You claim he is not dealing with Sansa in good faith because he presents himself as an unwilling or reluctant bridegroom. Right?
But you agree that its not a lie. Right?
So if its not good faith, and not a lie, what would be in good faith and true and acceptable to you? 
I am forced to conclude that you want him to explain his position in more detail. There is only one alternative...

20 hours ago, corbon said:

you demand that he frighten her more by telling her that he does want her body, her title, her lands, despite the fact that those aren't the things he wants most, and he's willing to give them up? Thats despicable.

If its not good faith to tell her the truth about his reluctance, what do you want from him? The only other truth is that he tell her about the benefits he gets, the carrot part of the persuasion. 

There are three factors here. How he feels (he doesn't want this), the metaphorical stick he was threatened with to change his mind, and the metaphorical carrot he was tempted with, to change his mind.

You've said telling his truthful feelings is not good faith.
I can't see any point for her (or him) in explaining the stick (plus its real complicated to explain to her with her not knowing or understanding his history and position), not a possibility in a few second long conversation while they ready themselves to enter the Altar anyway.
So that leaves explaining to her the carrot. I don't really think you're pushing that, hence the rhetorical question being shot down. 

What is he supposed to say?
Why is what he did say bad?

[corbon]

2. Did Tyrion have control over his family's actions or policies?

3. What actions did Tyrion initiate, or plan,  that were politically or militarily aggressive against the Starks?

4. If Tyrion refused to marry Sansa, what would have happened to her?

5. Would any other Lannister have risked his skin to protected Sansa from the bedding ceremony?

6. Would any other Lannister have refused to consummate the way Tyrion did, and more, kept it that way while suffering the laughter and mockery of not just his peers, but even the servants?

7. Did Tyrion offer Sansa an alternative to marrying him?

8. Did Sansa affirm her choice was to wed (and therefore bed) him?

9. Did Sansa actively move towards their duty (asking if she should disrobe now) when they were alone together, which both knew was consummation?
Yes, we know she just wanted to get it over with, that wasn't the question.

10. Did Sansa show dissent from their path at any time that night?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

37 minutes ago, corbon said:

Indeed. But @Elegant Woes said that I said it with the implication that I was complaining of it. 
I didn't say it.
I do understand why Tyrion would be held to a different standard to Sansa in this situation. I hold him to a different standard to her myself.

Its not the 'different' standard I have a problem with, it the inhuman standard he's being held to by people determined to assign him blame regardless of what was actually written.

For sure. I was trying to clear up the misunderstanding, I probably should've quoted EW. 

38 minutes ago, corbon said:

Sure. But I think (without checking back, I'm doing a lot of that and it takes time and I've actually got some other things to do this morning - apologies in advance if I've got this worng) it was not being 'batted around' but used as an argument (by others, not you). Its not a fit point to be used as an argument the way it was.

Haha ikr! & Then you start looking back & lose your whole reply. Pisses me off every time lol

You are correct though, it was being used as an argument, I was trying to bat it around. 

40 minutes ago, corbon said:

Its possible. I don;t think so at all though. She'd already expended her defiance, literally tried to make a break and run for it just before the wedding (before Tyrion was on the scene). The look from Trant then made her cringe, Cersei had already threatened her, Joffrey had further abused and threatened her during the post-wedding reception and thats on top of all the beatings and abuse over the last few months. 
Once she accepted the 'fact' of the wedding, she was defeated. All she had left was her armour, which she refused to take off.
I don't think she had it in her to fight in any way against the wedding and bedding any more.

She did flare up against Joffrey, when he told her Tyrion would bring her to Joffrey's bed whenever he wanted after the wedding. So I could be wrong. But thats a different level, I think. And I think its a natural follow from her understanding that Tyrion is now, both legally and in truth, her protector - and that he would take that duty seriously

Right I get what you are saying & it's really all speculation anyway since it didn't happen. My thought process was more along the lines of her being the 'good' girl & following the rules, using her courtesy & etiquette as an armor. I think it's possible she may have dropped that courtesy some if she knew. 

[corbon]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha ikr! & Then you start looking back & lose your whole reply. Pisses me off every time lol

If you are very careful, you can look back without losing your reply by going to the page lists just above the thread and right clicking to open another tab with the older pages. Hit left click instead of right click though and you're screwed.
I also run into problems sometimes when the reply is long enough that you have to scroll up a bit to get the reply toolbar (for bold, underline etc) and then using the numbering system I sometimes use for text analysis point by point - well, the supercript button ends up just below the Activity button at the very top of the forum page and I've lost whole replies accidentally mis-clicking by a few mm twice now. Aargh!
the other one is when a notification for a new post come through. Hit that by accident while trying to close it and... gone-burger. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, it wouldn't make any difference irt the marriage taking place, i'm just wondering if she didn't feel as if Joffrey was the lawful King if she would then feel less inclined to do her duty in the marriage bed. I think she would have ultimately would have exhibited the same behavior but do you think her words would have been different? For instance maybe she wouldn't have offered to disrobe if she knew Joff was not Robert's blood? 

Here is the reason for Sansa giving up the fight- because ultimately there is nothing she can do, especially for her as a rule follower, conformist and also still being a child and therefore believing in those rules even more.

"she said, defeated. “I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands.” "

If she fought so hard beforehand (vey untypical for her), if she knew this was only a bastard and she wasn't his ward and it was not her duty to marry at Joffrey's command, she would have acted differently IMO- she would have felt betrayed.

When faced with injustice in Clash and Storm, she usually resists or fights back, because like the rest of the Starks she still ultimately believes in honor and honesty and true knights.

When Joff  let her be beaten in the beginning, she tells him all "the truths", that he is a monster, that he promised to be merciful and killed her father, that she hates him, she resists at first and begs not to go up the stairs to look at Ned's head, wants to push him off and tells him "her brother will give her his head". She saves Dontos, because she is so shocked, she talks back to Joffrey, before he has her stripped and beaten, that Lady didn't attack him and he still had her killed, and also during the riot ("holding the corpse of her dead baby above her head. It was blue and swollen, grotesque, but the real horror was the mother’s eyes. Joffrey looked for a moment as if he meant to ride her down, but Sansa Stark leaned over and said something to him. The king fumbled in his purse, and flung the woman a silver stag."; " “I want the man who threw that!” he shouted. “A hundred golden dragons to the man who gives him up.” “He was up there!” someone shouted from the crowd. The king wheeled his horse in a circle to survey the rooftops and open balconies above them. In the crowd people were pointing, shoving, cursing one another and the king. “Please, Your Grace, let him go,” Sansa pleaded.")

When severe injustice has happened Sansa has always spoken out or resisted in Clash and Storm

IMO you can't just assume, that a person's outlook and behavior wouldn't change, if they were privy to such a monumental, live altering truth. Especially in Westeros, where "class thinking" is everything- it has been especially important for Sansa in the past and has functioned her whole life as guideline of how to behave and how to view people and the world. like GRRM said himself in that Bernie Mac quote: "I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that."

Just look at Ned's reaction, when he learns the truth. There is no reason to believe Sansa would feel differently.

And she is telling Tyrion here directly to his face, why she is surrendering - out of a false sense of duty, because she thinks she is the ward of the rightful king, which Tyrion knows to not be true. So IMO he lets her knowingly do her "false duty". There is no reason for Tyrion to believe, that she is offering to undress for any other reason, but thinking she has no other choice, but to do her duty as a ward of the king.

[corbon]

10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Here is the reason for Sansa giving up the fight- because ultimately there is nothing she can do, especially for her as a rule follower, conformist and also still being a child and therefore believing in those rules even more.

Is that really the full reason though? She's not defeated because of duty. 
She's defeated because not only is it futile to continue to resist, but she literally fears the results of resisting.

10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

"she said, defeated. “I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands.” "

Did you look at what immediate preceded this comment though?

Quote

"I understand your reluctance. Cry if you must. In your place, I would likely rip my hair out. He's a loathsome little imp, no doubt of it, but marry him you shall."

"You can't make me."¹

"Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same."2 The queen opened the door. Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Osmund Kettleblack were waiting without, in the white scale armor of the Kingsguard. "Escort Lady Sansa to the sept," she told them. "Carry her if you must,³ but try not to tear the gown, it was very costly."

Sansa tried to run,⁴ but Cersei's handmaid caught her before she'd gone a yard. Ser Meryn Trant gave her a look that made her cringe,⁵ but Kettleblack touched her almost gently and said, "Do as you're told, sweetling, it won't be so bad. Wolves are supposed to be brave, aren't they?"

Brave. Sansa took a deep breath. I am a Stark, yes, I can be brave. They were all looking at her, the way they had looked at her that day in the yard when Ser Boros Blount had torn her clothes off.⁶ It had been the Imp who saved her from a beating that day, the same man who was waiting for her now. He is not so bad as the rest of them, she told herself. "I'll go."⁷
...

"You're not," she flared. "You'll never be."8

His face darkened. "I am. I'm your father, and I can marry you to whoever I like. To anyone. You'll marry the pig boy if I say so, and bed down with him in the sty."^9a His green eyes glittered with amusement. "Or maybe I should give you to Ilyn Payne, would you like him better?"^9b

Her heart lurched.¹⁰ "Please, Your Grace," she begged. "If you ever loved me even a little bit, don't make me marry your—"

"—uncle?" Tyrion Lannister stepped through the doors of the sept.¹¹ "Your Grace," he said to Joffrey. "Grant me a moment alone with Lady Sansa, if you would be so kind?"

The king was about to refuse, but his mother gave him a sharp look. They drew off a few feet.¹²

1. Sansa is defiant
2. She is threatened with a horrible possibility and her defiance is shown to be futile
3. Cersei shows Sansa the futility of resisting with a preemptive order to Trant and Kettleblack.
4. Sansa still resists
5. Trant's look suggests violence to her
6. Their looks remind her of a violent episode against her
7. She surrenders.
8. shortly after she's still defiant to Joffrey, though now on a different matter (his position in this)
9a+b. He threatens her with a horrible fate, or two
10. She understands and fears the threat. She moves from defiance to begging.
The next two are more relevent for general understanding of other discussions, not this particular one.
11. Tyrion arrives. Everything in her day before this point is unknown to him.
12. Cersei and Joffrey were still close by when Tyrion talked to Sansa

What I see here is that Sansa has small moments of defiance of resistance, and each time she suffers credible threats of significant punishment before backing down.
Its not just 'duty' here that defeats her, not even just the futility of resistance. Its literally fear of the consequences.  

10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

When faced with injustice in Clash and Storm, she usually resists or fights back, because like the rest of the Starks she still ultimately believes honor and honesty and true knights.

Agreed. 
What stops her when she stops?
You say futility (I agree in part) and (a false sense of) duty.  
I say, futility yes, duty no. The main reason with futility is fear, due to the credible threats and the brutality she has already received.

Duty is part of her response, her armour, her ability to wall herself off from the things she has to do. Its not the reason she accepts doing them.

10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

When Joff  let her be beaten in the beginning, she tells him all "the truths", that he is a monster, that he promised to be merciful and killed her father, that she hates him, she resists at first and begs not to go up the stairs to look at Ned's head, wants to push him off and tells him "her brother will give her his head".

Right. And the response to her defiance? A beating. the defiance came first, in response to psychological abuse, the beating second, not the other way round. Abuse (injustice) -> defiance -> beating.

10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

she talks back to Joffrey, before he has her stripped and beaten,

exactly. Same pattern. Defiance -> beating

10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

When severe injustice has happened Sansa has always spoken out or resisted in Clash and Storm

Yes, good for her. 
But when its been defiant (as opposed to cleverly un-defiant but manipulative, like the Dontos-saving and the pre-riot scene, neither of which led to violence against her from the Lannisters) she suffers for that defiance each time.

10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO you can't just assume, that a person's outlook and behavior wouldn't change, if they were privy to such a monumental live altering truth.

Its not just an assumption though, its a judgment based on the data we are given. Your judgement has been made based on a different cause-assumption from my judgement. I think that case-assumption is wrong and have explained why, I think.
Sansa has been defiant in the face of injustice repeatedly. She's learned that that leads to violence against her and personal pain and suffering. She's under direct threat at the wedding. She's finally defeated.
I don't think its just the futility and 'duty' that defeats her, its the probability of violence of one sort or another against her if she shows any defiance.

Why would knowing Joffrey was really a bastard change that? I don't see how.

She's actually heard the charge before too, it wouldn't be a new idea for her that Joffrey was born from incest. The BotBW prisoners who were loyal to Stannis shouted it out in court in front of her in ACoK. 
Thats not the same as Tyrion saying he believes it, I understand. I don't think it would have any effect anyway.

10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And she is telling Tyrion here directly to his face, why she is surrendering - out of a false sense of duty, because she thinks she is the ward of the rightful king, which Tyrion knows to not be true. So IMO he lets her knowingly do her "false duty". There is no reason for Tyrion to believe, that she is offering to undress for any other reason, but thinking she has no other choice, but to do her duty as a ward of the king.

Is that the reason she is surrendering or the fact of her surrender? I don;t think its the reason she has stopped fighting injustice here. 

[Nagini's Neville]

40 minutes ago, corbon said:

I don't think it would have any effect anyway.

They might get her to marry him, but I don't think she would think it was her duty to let him bed her.

And even though she is beaten she reacts to injustice again and again. She doesn't just stop after her first beating. She gets beaten quite frequently. So why should she just stop now? When basically her whole life and that of her family is at risk. She doesn't want the Lannisters to get WF. As I said they might get her to marry Tyrion, but Question: 

If she knows she isn't the ward of the king, why should she undress for Tyrion and let him bed her? When the consummation is finalizing the marriage? Allowing the Lannisters to claim WF and binding her forever to them. Why should she do that? She has risked and endured severe beatings for minor things already and I don't think, she would fear Tyrion would beat her there and then.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

I don't think its just the futility and 'duty' that defeats her, its the probability of violence of one sort or another against her if she shows any defiance.

And you don't think Tyrion should consider, that the reason why she offers to undress for him is that she is afraid of said violence? Since he knows she has been severely beaten and has been left in the "care" of Joffrey and Cersei? 

[corbon]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

They might get her to marry him, but I don't think she would think it was her duty to let him bed her.

As I said, duty isn't her reason, its part of her armour to reduce the effect of her forced actions on her soul.

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

And even though she is beaten she reacts to injustice again and again. She doesn't just stop after her first beating. She gets beaten quite frequently. So why should she just stop now?

That plus the futility was finally too much?
I don;t know why now, except that she had just resisted this 'event', and been threatened for it. She gave up the 'resistance' before Tyrion came on the scene here. 

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

When basically her whole life and that of her family is at risk. She doesn't want the Lannisters to get WF. As I said they might get her to marry Tyrion, but Question: 

While I appreciate the tactical change, asking a question instead of challenging an answer (I've tried to do it that way when I can, to try to reduce conflict, but I'm far from perfect too), what exactly makes you think I should answer your questions when mine never get answered?

I will anyway, of course.

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

If she knows she isn't the ward of the king,

But she is. Legally.
Even if you posit that shee knows that the king is illegitimate, he's still has all the power of a legitimate king.

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

why should she undress for Tyrion and let him bed her?

First, please understand I'm not saying she should.

This isn't a discussion about her perspective. We all agree that no blame is associated on her for what is happening here, even though she has choices and opportunities she doesn't take up.
It seems like you are insisting that Tyrion must be judged based on her perspective, not his own. Is that an unfair description?

I'm saying because she's on this path, has accepted the futility of resistance, has turned down the offer to change paths, has accepted (and counted on) his protection from others, from Tyrion's perspective there is no other possibility. He's still reluctant, as shown by his prevarication etc, but she's accepted this must happened, chosen not to deviate from the path and from his perspective appears to be moving it forward.

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

When the consummation is finalizing the marriage? Allowing the Lannisters to claim WF and binding her forever to them. Why should she do that? She has risked and endured severe beatings for minor things already and I don't think, she would fear Tyrion would beat her there and then.

She shouldn't.
But she does. Repeatedly, and objects to his age excuse too.

Again, this discussion is not really about her. Its about him. She's not on trial here, he is.

[corbon]

4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And you don't think Tyrion should consider, that the reason why she offers to undress for him is that she is afraid of said violence? Since he knows she has been severely beaten and has been left in the "care" of Joffrey and Cersei? 

And you don't think he is at least partially aware of that, does consider it?
You don't think thats part of the reason he's reluctant, prevaricating, drinking heavily? He's said as much. He's literally complained that this was singularly cruel to her, that he didn't want to do.

The fact is its happening. The bedding is part of the wedding, necessary for political reasons, and he's done what little he can do to this point to change it. She's shot down his effort to do what he could for her. 
She's the one choosing to drive this forward. The why she chooses is irrelevant at this point. He either respects her choice, or ignores it.

At this stage, she hasn't given him strong enough evidence that he can be morally permitted override her expressed will. When she shudders at his touch, then he has that evidence and he does override her expressed will.

To answer your question, yes I think he should, and likely has. 
I would probably not blame him for not doing so anyway, at this stage, given the circumstances, her words earlier, that he doesn't want to do this either, the amount of drink he's had, etc etc. He has a duty of care, but he's human too. He stops when he gets enough info to tell him to stop. That more than cancels out any dubious subjective judgement that maybe he might have thought deeply about the situation they were in as they were in it and ignored her words and actions and stopped a teeny bit earlier.

He is not responsible for divining her true feelings and acting on his divination. He's responsible for responding to her words and actions. 
This goes dangerously close to the common 'was it consensual or not' argument when a women feels pressured into consenting to sex and so consents, then claims later that she wasn't actually consenting. She might actually be right - maybe she didn't truly consent, but she expressed that she did. Tthe man is not responsible for divining and acting on her unexpressed feelings. He's responsible for acting on what she expressed. Period. 
And vice versa of course. I guess that probably happens too, but we never hear about it.