Tyrion and Sansa

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

is from 1999 when he was still writing ASOS which was published one year later. So I think Tyrion is not supposed to be one of the good guys and although he is obviously not as bad as Tywin, Cersei and Joff, he is on their side and does his best to keep his family in power. Imo not trusting him was one of Sansa's best decisions.

I agree Tyrion is a darker shade of gray than some, lighter than others, but never white. I also agree he is on their side & does his best to keep his family in power. I would argue though, that isn't a bad thing in & of itself. Keeping his family in power keeps himself in power & more importantly, keeps himself protected. If he were to work against his family & try to orchestrate their downfall not only would he be in danger from his family but once the Lannister's fell he would also be in danger from others. 

I completely understand Sansa's decision not to trust him but would disagree that it was one of her best decisions. We do have his inner thoughts & we know he has no intention of harming her or manipulating her. He is kind to her & genuinely wants to make her time there more bearable. He sincerely feels bad when Robb dies, even though Robb is an active enemy of his own house. I would agree that she could not trust him to tell him things like the plans to escape KL though, so if that's what you are referring to, I agree. I only mean it may have been to her benefit to open up a little to Tyrion & tell him her true feelings rather than use her courtesy as armor. I don't see any reason to believe Tyrion would have used that against her. 

[Nagini's Neville]

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I believe that you are & were making is that if Sansa knew that Joffrey is a bastard & not Robert's true heir, she would act/react differently.

Not only would Sansa act differently, but Joffrey would simply not have the right to do it. Because it's her brother's right to do so. She would also not be allowed to just marry without her brother's consent- even if she wanted to. 

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Joffrey holds the throne. For all intents & purposes he is the King & his word is law, he is the acting ruler of the realm.

If we only look at this, than killing Ned was also right, wasn't it? He is the King and a lord tried to slander him so he has the right to execute him.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Not only would Sansa act differently, but Joffrey would simply not have the right to do it. Because it's her brother's right to do so. She would also not be allowed to just marry without her brother's consent- even if she wanted to. 

Yep, he would still hold the power to do so though & so it would still be done. I think the main difference would be that Sansa would know he has no true right, whether or not he has the power. 

3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

If we only look at this, than killing Ned was also right, wasn't it? He is the King and a lord tried to slander him so he has the right to execute him.

Indeed. Agreed. It's a twisty thing & I agree only looking at this makes Ned's punishment 'right' whether or not I agree with the actual execution. When we look at more of it, it gets all muddied up in my mind & I don't know which way is the "right" way of it. I expanded a little more in the next post irt Ned & his punishment. 

[Nagini's Neville]

28 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is quite interesting to me because I think there is some merit to that. Sansa behaves as the good girl should, following the rules, doing her duty, doing what is expected of her as a high-born woman in her society. If she was aware that Joffrey has no legal right over her, she may indeed behave differently. She would still be forced to marry a Lannister, of course, but that's not the point. The point is she may have refused Tyrion outright. She may have told him, No, I do not want to consummate this marriage because this marriage is unlawful & I've been forced against my will by someone who has no legal authority to do so. That would in turn, I believe, change Tyrion's behavior as well. 

agreed

28 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

1. Did Tyrion have a moral or legal obligation to tell Sansa the truth of Joffrey? Namely that he is a bastard born of incest & no blood of Robert Baratheon's - I don't think he did. I think his moral & legal obligations should be to his family & more importantly, to himself. It is not in junction with his well-being to tell this secret. Not only would nothing, outside of Sansa perhaps refusing to consummate, come of this it also has a large potential to cause retaliation & harm against him. 

If he, confides in Sansa that Joffrey is a bastard, she still will be forced to marry a Lannister. It will do nothing to remove Joffrey from the throne because even if she could prove Tyrion said it she nor he can prove it's true. So, she would still be married to a Lannister & the Lannisters would still be in power. Now, though, the Lannisters also know that Tyrion is walking around spilling their secret. What is to stop them from killing him for it? I would say nothing, especially in light of the fact that Cersei, we believe, has already tried to have him killed. If he w ere threatening the entire Lannister dynasty Tywin & Cersei would ensure he paid for it. 

2. Did Tyrion keep this information from Sansa because he knew it would likely make her less compliant in the marriage & consummation? Again, I don't think so. I think it can be argued that he should have known this or that at least he should have thought of this but I think his # 1 motivation for keeping this secret would be the safety of himself & preventing the downfall of his family. In the end, if his family falls, so does he, so he has much & more reason to keep this secret, IMO. 

Here you say it yourself: Tyrion's priority is to protect his House and himself and therefore he is willing sacrifice the well-being of an completely innocent child.

I'm not suggesting, that he should tell her Joffrey is a bastard, but to consider that her asking to undress probably came out of a false sense of duty and was not her indeed agreeing, but feeling she has no other choice, because she thinks of herself as the ward of the King.  

IMO this is the least he could have done for her after all his family has put her through.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Here you say it yourself: Tyrion's priority is to protect his House and himself and therefore he is willing sacrifice the well-being of an completely innocent child.

I'm not suggesting, that he should tell her Joffrey is a bastard, but to consider that her asking to undress probably came out of a false sense of duty and was not her indeed agreeing, but feeling she has no other choice, because she thinks of herself as the ward of the King.  

IMO this is the least he could have done for her after all his family has put her through.

Indeed. His priority is to himself & his house, not to say he has no care for the well-being of Sansa though, he does, she just isn't his # 1 priority. 

Yeah, I see where you are coming from with this. He, at the very least, could have considered that & maybe he should have. I don't think he did, but I don't think that takes away from the fact that he probably should have. 

[Nagini's Neville]

30 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yep, he would still hold the power to do so though & so it would still be done. I think the main difference would be that Sansa would know he has no true right, whether or not he has the power. 

Yeah and Tyrion knows Joffrey is deceiving Sansa. And it doesn't take a genius to understand that behavior based on lies (offering to undress) is not reflective of what that person would do, if they knew the truth.

If your son comes to you asking for money, because he has been robbed, you give it to him, but if you knew he actually lost all his money gambling, you wouldn't.

37 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Indeed. Agreed. It's a twisty thing & I agree only looking at this makes Ned's punishment 'right' whether or not I agree with the actual execution. When we look at more of it, it gets all muddied up in my mind & I don't know which way is the "right" way of it. I expanded a little more in the next post irt Ned & his punishment.

Yeah, I guess it's the nature of ASOIAF. We wouldn't all been discussing it, if it was all so clear all the time.

[broken one]

tyrion is member of powerful house, a young lord, so he behaves like lords do. still he's probably more humane than most of his kind, not too brutal nor eager to take advantage of his privileged position (with his sex drive he could have been sb like mini aegon IV I think). In the beginning he's even full of lofty ideals. do not exactly know what people mean when they talk about his 'darkness'. he's just has become bitter and disillusioned. 

loyalty to ones house / family is sacred in the world, so he tries hard as long as its possible

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah and Tyrion knows Joffrey is deceiving Sansa. And it doesn't take a genius to understand that behavior based on lies (offering to undress) is not reflective of what that person would do, if they knew the truth.

If your son comes to you asking for money, because he has been robbed, you give it to him, but if you knew he actually lost all his money gambling, you wouldn't.

 

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah and Tyrion knows Joffrey is deceiving Sansa. And it doesn't take a genius to understand that behavior based on lies (offering to undress) is not reflective of what that person would do, if they knew the truth.

If your son comes to you asking for money, because he has been robbed, you give it to him, but if you knew he actually lost all his money gambling, you wouldn't.

Yeah, I guess it's the nature of ASOIAF. We wouldn't all been discussing it, if it was all so clear all the time.

Agreed 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, broken one said:

tyrion is member of powerful house, a young lord, so he behaves like lords do. still he's probably more humane than most of his kind, not too brutal nor eager to take advantage of his privileged position (with his sex drive he could have been sb like mini aegon IV I think). In the beginning he's even full of lofty ideals. do not exactly know what people mean when they talk about his 'darkness'. he's just has become bitter and disillusioned. 

loyalty to ones house / family is sacred in the world, so he tries hard as long as its possible

The last thing I want to do is turn this into a Tyrion 'hate-thread' (not that I'm suggesting you are, I'm saying I'm not attempting to that with my post) Tyrion is one of my favorite characters. But to be fair, he starts out grey & gets quite a bit darker IMO. 

- he murders his father & ex-whore

- he has sex with a slave knowing, or at least believing she does not want to participate

-he talks about raping his sister

- he has a singer made into stew

- he tells his brother he killed his nephew

There are plenty of questionable things Tyrion has done & plenty of this gives him some level of darkness IMO. Of course there are reasons for every thing up there & for some, even good reasons but as good ole Stan says "The good does not wash out the bad" These things are not 'good' things & for the most part they are born from his spite & self-loathing. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

5 hours ago, corbon said:

I agree in general, but not entirely. I think, for example that she could have conceived changing the marriage to Lancel as Tyrion offered - once he offered it. It shouldn't affect the politics of the match, so should be an acceptable alternate, and Tyrion should have the power to arrange it - the Lannister's can't very well force him to act against his will in this area and expect to keep the political gain. They do need a willing bridegroom, so Tyrion does actually have this power. Sansa's not stupid, just afraid.

I obviously didn't express it clearly enough, but the point I began by making was that from the perception of the reader, Tyrion is not making an offer of Lancel as alternate bridegroom in good faith. Sansa, of course, has no way to be aware of this but the reader does, being privy to the previous Tyrion chapter wherein Lancel had already been rejected as unsuitable by Ser Kevan.

Even if Sansa had made that choice, I don't believe Tywin would have allowed it therefore it was a false choice.

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Not true. There are more Lannisters. Both Ser Daven and Ser Lucion would be suitable, especially Ser Daven who is not yet matched to a Frey at this stage. There are probably even more, unnamed, suitable Lannisters from even more distant branches. Its a large family.

Then it strikes me as odd that neither Tywin nor Kevan mention any other Lannister family member as a possible alternative, not a named possibility but also not an unnamed possibility. They don't even say, well if you won't do it and Lancel can't, then we'll find some other family member who will suffice even if we have to fling the net far and wide to find someone and by the way this needs to happen quickly as well. (Tywin: "You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon.")

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Simply put, you need to explain what the point of that conversation is. Its only value is to persuade him not to refuse, and the only thrust it has in that direction is that if he refuses he misses out on the prize and she still suffers the same fate.

Agreed, the persuasion of Tyrion was the point. Tywin, with an assist from Kevan, made a significant effort to persuade Tyrion to agree to the marriage. Indeed, Tywin was a good deal more patient with Tyrion and his marriage objections than he was with Cersei's objections to a marriage for herself directly prior.

So yes, that was the point of the conversation - for Tyrion. But for the reader, it's the essential background for understanding that it will be Tyrion only as Sansa's husband. Not Lancel, it was never going to happen and Tyrion's offer of him wasn't genuine.

 

And there's another thing I just thought of about Tyrion not dealing with Sansa in good faith. It's when he says, "You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did." So - technically - Tyrion is correct that he did not ask. He made objections, to be sure, but he was able to overcome them to the point where he agreed freely to marry her. So to then present himself as an unwilling or reluctant bridegroom - well, there's no way I could characterize that as lying but it's hardly absolutely truthful either.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

 

@broken one what @L<3R said. I also think he doesn't treat Sansa right on the WN, even though he eventually doesn't go through with it. He also can be fucking cruel to people, who have done him no wrong and have no power, for no reason whatsoever. IMO it is just very hypocritical considering his bastards, cripples and broken things mantra. 

" “I believe I have changed my mind,” he told her. “Wait for me abed. Naked, if you please, I’ll be a deal too drunk to fumble at your clothing. Keep your mouth shut and your thighs open and the two of us should get on splendidly.” He gave her a leer, hoping for a taste of fear, but all she gave him was revulsion. No one fears a dwarf. Even Lord Tywin had not been afraid, though Tyrion had held a crossbow in his hands. “Do you moan when you are being fucked?” he asked the bedwarmer. “If it please m’lord.” “It might please m’lord to strangle you. That’s how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me.” This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted."

Dance With Dragons, Tyrion 1

[winter daughter]

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar

I think it was a very good decision because one of the main reasons she was able to stay under the radar for such a long time and ultimately pull off her escape plan was because she kept Tyrion at arm's length.

Also this decision showed that she had learned her lesson regarding this family. Because kinder or not at the end of the day Tyrion was a Lannister acting in his family's best interests.

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

48 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I obviously didn't express it clearly enough, but the point I began by making was that from the perception of the reader, Tyrion is not making an offer of Lancel as alternate bridegroom in good faith. Sansa, of course, has no way to be aware of this but the reader does, being privy to the previous Tyrion chapter wherein Lancel had already been rejected as unsuitable by Ser Kevan.

I believe this reasoning is faulty on a few counts & I apologize in advance for the lengthy reply but I want to be sure I express what I'm saying clearly. 

You are saying Lancel was a false choice evidenced by Ser Kevan rejecting the idea & by Tywin saying Tyrion will marry Sansa correct? 

My first argument would be that Ser Kevan did not reject the idea as unsuitable, he said Lancel could not consummate presently. For that, among other reasons, Tywin (& possibly Kevan) would prefer Tyrion to marry Sansa because Tyrion can consummate, & the quicker it's consummated the quicker it's solidified. But this isn't a deal breaker for them, Lancel will be able to consummate eventually & Tyrion doesn't end up consummating it either so they are really in the same spot with Tyrion as they would have been with Lancel - with a marriage, unconsummated. Tywin does repeatedly urge Tyrion to consummate the marriage but he doesn't threaten him or put forth any consequence or punishment for not consummating. It is preferable, but not absolutely necessary right away. 

Secondly, Tywin does say "Tyrion you will marry Sansa" But he also says if Tyrion does not marry Sansa she will be married to Lancel. 

Another faulty point is that if we believe that Lancel is a false option & take Tywin's command to mean that no matter what, Tyrion will marry Sansa, then Tyrion has no choice in the matter & cannot be held responsible for his actions, because he has no choice. If there is no option other than Tyrion & Tywin will truly force him into the marriage regardless of his wishes he is a true victim here. If we believe that Lancel is a false option but that Tyrion does have the agency to refuse, then we are not only have to ignore your assertion that Tywin's command held water but also have to believe that if Tyrion refuses Tywin will just not have Sansa married to anyone. 

I believe Tyrion did have the option to refuse & by your earlier post I understand that you believe this as well. (I think it was you who agreed to this, if not please correct me but I don't want to look back & lose the reply I've written thus far) If you believe Tyrion had the right to refuse the marriage then I ask you: What is the point in reiterating the statement made by Tywin that Tyrion will marry Sansa? And secondly, what do you think would have been done if Tyrion did refuse, because I cannot fathom that Tywin would not find a way to have Sansa & thus the North married into his family rather than allowing her to be married to the Tyrell's. 

 

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Even if Sansa had made that choice, I don't believe Tywin would have allowed it therefore it was a false choice.

I don't know if this is relevant irt whether or not Tyrion was playing Sansa false here. Tywin has pretty much complete & utter control over Sansa & can make her marry whomever he wishes, but he needs a willing bridegroom. Whether or not Tywin would have allowed that bridegroom to be Lancel is anyone's guess (although I don't see why not if he lacked someone better) but to believe Tyrion is playing Sansa false here we have to believe that he would not have refused to marry her had she taken him up on his offer. I don't think that is the case at all because we don't have any evidence to suggest this. 

Tyrion offers to stop the marriage. That is within his power to do so, as I don't see any way Tywin can make him marry her. If he refuses, Tywin has no choice but to marry her to someone else under his thumb. 

To try to make this a little more organized as I know my thoughts jump around & are hard to follow sometimes:

-If you are arguing that, upon hypothetically taking Tyrion up on his offer, Tywin would then not allow her to "choose" Lancel, I agree, her choice would not matter one bit to Tywin, but this doesn't make the offer false coming from Tyrion. 

-If you are arguing, upon taking Tyrion up on his offer, that Tywin would not marry her to someone else I disagree, he really has no choice but to either marry her to someone he has control of or allow her to be married to the Tyrell's. 

-If you are arguing, upon taking Tyrion up on his offer, that Tyrion would then say "Ahhh... well that wasn't a true offer, sorry, I'm still going to marry you" I disagree fully & would be interested in hearing what evidence you have to suggest that. 

- If you are saying upon taking Tyrion up on his offer that Tyrion would indeed try to refuse the marriage but that Tywin (because he has no other choices) would force him to marry her anyway, this again does not make the offer false coming from Tyrion but also I would like to know how you suggest he would force him into this because I see no viable way to do so. 

If you are not arguing any of these things then, it seems I have misunderstood you & would like if you would clarify further, as I see no other hypotheticals to fit your argument. If none of these things are what you are saying it may be helpful to me if you tell me:

My argument is upon taking Tyrion up on his offer, Tyrion would X. 

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Then it strikes me as odd that neither Tywin nor Kevan mention any other Lannister family member as a possible alternative, not a named possibility but also not an unnamed possibility. They don't even say, well if you won't do it and Lancel can't, then we'll find some other family member who will suffice even if we have to fling the net far and wide to find someone and by the way this needs to happen quickly as well. (Tywin: "You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon.")

 

I think I probably covered this in my replies already but just to clarify I'm asking if you believe Tyrion had no choice? I think we can probably move forward from there after that is clarified (I believe you have already said this but just to reiterate it & ensure I'm not misremembering) 

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Agreed, the persuasion of Tyrion was the point. Tywin, with an assist from Kevan, made a significant effort to persuade Tyrion to agree to the marriage. Indeed, Tywin was a good deal more patient with Tyrion and his marriage objections than he was with Cersei's objections to a marriage for herself directly prior.

I agree here, the point was persuasion & he was allowed much more agency than Cersei was. 

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

So yes, that was the point of the conversation - for Tyrion. But for the reader, it's the essential background for understanding that it will be Tyrion only as Sansa's husband. Not Lancel, it was never going to happen and Tyrion's offer of him wasn't genuine.

I don't think Tywin was presenting an "offer" to Tyrion, more of a threat of sorts "If you don't, I'll find someone who will" sort of thing. I don't mean to argue semantics, just wanted to clarify that. 

I think I've said/asked all I can on the matter of whether or not it was going to happen without further reply from you (Lancel marrying Sansa) but would point out that if the threat to Tyrion was not genuine that doesn't mean Tyrion's offer to Sansa was also not genuine. Tyrion knows Sansa will be made to marry someone under Tywin's control, whether that is him or someone else. He also knows that his father cannot legally & especially not in front of witnesses force Tyrion to marry against his will, so I would contend the offer to call off the marriage was genuine. 

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

And there's another thing I just thought of about Tyrion not dealing with Sansa in good faith. It's when he says, "You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did." So - technically - Tyrion is correct that he did not ask. He made objections, to be sure, but he was able to overcome them to the point where he agreed freely to marry her. So to then present himself as an unwilling or reluctant bridegroom - well, there's no way I could characterize that as lying but it's hardly absolutely truthful either.

 

You say so yourself though - he did not ask for the marriage & indeed put up objections. I don't think he is stating any more or less than that here. If it's the truth, how can it be in bad faith? 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse here but I would again ask what the point in reiterating that Tywin said Tyrion will marry Sansa & soon if it is your position he agreed freely to marry her? 

He does not present himself as an unwilling bridegroom at all, he does present himself as a reluctant one & indeed he is. He is reluctant for Sansa herself. He has no reason to refuse this marriage other than for Sansa. This is a great match for him, she is beautiful, smart, is the presumed heir to WF & she allows him to help out his family in a manner that will likely never be presented to him again. His reluctance lies solely on the basis that he knows this is not her ideal match. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

52 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar

I think it was a very good decision because one of the main reasons she was able to stay under the radar for such a long time and ultimately pull off her escape plan was because she kept Tyrion at arm's length.

Also this decision showed that she had learned her lesson regarding this family. Because kinder or not at the end of the day Tyrion was a Lannister acting in his family's best interests.

 

 

I can agree with that. It was beneficial to keep him at arms length as a means to keep him from finding out her plans. I also think it could have been beneficial to her emotional & psychological well being to have someone being kind to her, that she could open up, a least a little to, also. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 

@broken one what @L<3R said. I also think he doesn't treat Sansa right on the WN, even though he eventually doesn't go through with it. He also can be fucking cruel to people, who have done him no wrong and have no power, for no reason whatsoever. IMO it is just very hypocritical considering his bastards, cripples and broken things mantra. 

" “I believe I have changed my mind,” he told her. “Wait for me abed. Naked, if you please, I’ll be a deal too drunk to fumble at your clothing. Keep your mouth shut and your thighs open and the two of us should get on splendidly.” He gave her a leer, hoping for a taste of fear, but all she gave him was revulsion. No one fears a dwarf. Even Lord Tywin had not been afraid, though Tyrion had held a crossbow in his hands. “Do you moan when you are being fucked?” he asked the bedwarmer. “If it please m’lord.” “It might please m’lord to strangle you. That’s how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me.” This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted."

Dance With Dragons, Tyrion 1

ugh, that passage flips my stomach every time I read it. 

[Mystical]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Here you say it yourself: Tyrion's priority is to protect his House and himself and therefore he is willing sacrifice the well-being of an completely innocent child.

And this is where the problem for me starts. Not with the wedding and bedding. Tyrion knows the Lannisters are illegitimately sitting on the throne. He does everything in his power to support and help this illegitimate regime to stay in power. Therefor he is complicit in everything that said regime does, especially to innocent people like Sansa (like her getting beat).

He knows his family has no right to arrange any marriage for Sansa (whether to him or anyone else) and Joffrey is definitely not the 'father of the realm' and has therefore no right to stand in as her father and give her away. All he does is help his family perpetrate injustice and carnage on the realm (and on Sansa specifically via himself for example). That's why Tyrion gets no cookies from me whatsoever. Dude, you could just run away to Essos or something and not support your family bringing death and destruction on everyone they please. That would be the right thing to do but that means no more wealth and power which are far more important to him. And he'd also loose out on beautiful, well mannered and educated child brides with a sizeable estates...

[winter daughter]

30 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

...I also think it could have been beneficial to her emotional & psychological well being to have someone being kind to her, that she could open up, a least a little to, also. 

Well she had Dantos to talk to so she didn't need Tyrion to comfort her especially since it was his family that was the source of her suffering.

[Nagini's Neville]

15 minutes ago, Mystical said:

And this is where the problem for me starts. Not with the wedding and bedding. Tyrion knows the Lannisters are illegitimately sitting on the throne. He does everything in his power to support and help this illegitimate regime to stay in power. Therefor he is complicit in everything that said regime does, especially to innocent people like Sansa (like her getting beat).

He knows his family has no right to arrange any marriage for Sansa (whether to him or anyone else) and Joffrey is definitely not the 'father of the realm' and has therefore no right to stand in as her father and give her away. All he does is help his family perpetrate injustice and carnage on the realm (and on Sansa specifically via himself for example). That's why Tyrion gets no cookies from me whatsoever. Dude, you could just run away to Essos or something and not support your family bringing death and destruction on everyone they please. That would be the right thing to do but that means no more wealth and power which are far more important to him. And he'd also loose out on beautiful, well mannered and educated child brides with a sizeable estates...

Yeah, I guess, that's why GRRM calls him a villain. I can however understand, that it can be hard to just leave the mafia, if you were born into the mafia and it involves risks to your own well-being. But if you are doing everything to make sure the Mafia stays in power, you also have responsibility for that and the actions committed in the Mafia's name and can't just deflect the guilt- you are part of it.

[Elegant Woes]

Tyrion's complicity in the Lannisters' grab for power and the downfall of House Stark convinces me that he won't have a happy ending in the end. Especially if he is the only Lannister of the mainline standing. Their crimes will be brought to light in the end by Bran and when that happens he will be punished for it. In result Sansa will finally be free of him. Of that I am certain. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

57 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Well she had Dantos to talk to so she didn't need Tyrion to comfort her especially since it was his family that was the source of her suffering.

I disagree that Dontos was a very helpful person to talk to but to each their own.