Should Renly and the Tyrells have stayed neutral until after the Battle of Backwater

[frenin]

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Robb's actions before being crowned at Riverrun would be perfectly compatible with him declaring his support for Stannis afterwards. The Northmen weren't fighting "the crown's representatives", but the Lannisters. Given that Joffrey was still a minor and late king Robert had named Ned as regent, their hold on power was more than questionable in legal grounds (of the 7 members of Robert's Small Council, only 3 supported the Lannister's usurpation).

In any case, I think that it's reasonable to assume that if Stannis had claimed the crown before Robb reached Riverrun and Renly hadn't crowned himself, Robb would have declared for Stannis.

Since Robb himself was looking for a way to end the Lannisters without becoming a traitor, he would've surely declared  for Stannis. How long it would last with Meli around creeping everyone i can't tell. The Northmen don't play with religion  nor Stannis would be strong enough to enable Meli's shenaningans in front of the Rivermen.

The only King's representatives at that point were Beric's gang. I don't remember the crown ever enabling Tywin's conduct, more like suddenly the people Tywin was fighting became rebels.

[Saminstark]

On 4/4/2020 at 8:12 PM, Trigger Warning said:

Renly was crowned and on the march before Stannis even made his claim, why would he wait for Stannis to fight Joffrey?

Renly's claim is behind Stannis's. That's why he should not just wait, but declare for Stannis.

[Dreadscythe95]

15 hours ago, frenin said:

There far stronger houses?? Sure, the Florents are among the strongest and wealthiest?? Also true. The Florents are considered great lords.

 

Highgarden reaped the richest harvest. Tyrion eyed Mace Tyrell's broad belly and thought, He has a prodigious appetite, this one. Tyrell demanded the lands and castles of Lord Alester Florent, his own bannerman, who'd had the singular ill judgment to back first Renly and then Stannis. Lord Tywin was pleased to oblige. Brightwater Keep and all its lands and incomes were granted to Lord Tyrell's second son, Ser Garlan, transforming him into a great lord in the blink of an eye. His elder brother, of course, stood to inherit Highgarden itself

 

Do you have a quote?? It's like me saying that Robert holds a grudge over Randyll for defeating him at Ashford. 

 

I did not argue that.

No they are not amongst the strongest. They have one of the smallest armies in the Reach and they are far from the wealthiest as well.

Tyrells, Hightowers, Redwynes, Tarlys, Red and Green Fossoways, Hewetts, Oakhearts and Rowans are all bigger Houses that either control more wealth or bigger armies or both.

Also don't compare Robert with Stannis, very diferent characters and they followed very different politics. And anyway as I told you it's not only about Stannis, it's also that there is no way that The Tyrells would want a King that doesn't like them on The Iron throne, Teh Tyrells of that time are very strong and they want to put a heir on the Iron Throne, nto watch The Florents sit on it, stop removing politics from the story.

[frenin]

56 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

No they are not amongst the strongest. They have one of the smallest armies in the Reach and they are far from the wealthiest as well.

Tyrells, Hightowers, Redwynes, Tarlys, Red and Green Fossoways, Hewetts, Oakhearts and Rowans are all bigger Houses that either control more wealth or bigger armies or both.

Also don't compare Robert with Stannis, very diferent characters and they followed very different politics. And anyway as I told you it's not only about Stannis, it's also that there is no way that The Tyrells would want a King that doesn't like them on The Iron throne, Teh Tyrells of that time are very strong and they want to put a heir on the Iron Throne, nto watch The Florents sit on it, stop removing politics from the story.

(1) Are you unable to understand the difference between, "one of the strongest and wealthiest"  and "strongest and wealthiest"??  In the Reach there are according to you 10 more important Houses, how many Houses do you think the Reach has exactly?? Garlan has become a Great Lord by being granted Brightwater Keep, your claim is simply inconsistent with the books.

 

(2) I'm going to need some quotes  backing up your claim that the Tarlys, Oakhearts, Fossoways and Hewetts have either a bigger army or more wealth  than the Florents.

 

(3) I can compare Robert and Stannis, neither Robert has ever shown having anything against Tarly for Ashford nor Stannis has ever displayed any kind of grudge against the Reach for the siege. So, the idea that the Tyrells think that Stannis is angry at them is fanfic at this point.

 

(4) I did not remove anything, I've told you that is perfectly reasonable that the Tyrells don't want a Florent nowhere near the Throne. 

[Trigger Warning]

5 hours ago, Saminstark said:

Renly's claim is behind Stannis's. That's why he should not just wait, but declare for Stannis.

How can you declare for a man that hasn't declared his intentions. Renly's usurping Joffrey and Tommen before Stannis, Stannis is an afterthought until he stakes his claim which he does when Renly's already crowned and marching at the head of nearly 100,000 men.  

[Dreadscythe95]

16 hours ago, frenin said:

 I did not remove anything, I've told you that is perfectly reasonable that the Tyrells don't want a Florent nowhere near the Throne. 

Ok we can agree at least on that because I am exhausted of this convo at this point.

It's not like I haven't given you many clues already that The Stannis-Florent marriage feels completely random if you dont put the Highgarden claim they have to the table. 

Anyway...

[dsjj251]

12 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

How can you declare for a man that hasn't declared his intentions. Renly's usurping Joffrey and Tommen before Stannis, Stannis is an afterthought until he stakes his claim which he does when Renly's already crowned and marching at the head of nearly 100,000 men.  

The Prologue of ACoKs makes it seem as though Stannis has long ago made his claim for the throne seeing as he sent Davos as an envoy to gain support in the Stormlands. Not to mention AGOT having Varys say they believe Stannis was building ships. Stannis likely declared the moment he found out Robert died. 

[dsjj251]

On 4/6/2020 at 6:02 PM, Dreadscythe95 said:

And long before WOT5K, yes. It was obviously a political marriage, like all marriages between nobles. Why would stannis marry the daughter of a Noble man of The Reach, and from a House that is not even amongst the strongest, biggest or wealthiest. The only thing that The Florents had that The Baratheons wanted was a strong claim to Highgarden. The Brother of the King could marry any woman in Westeros he desired, yet he took a Florent. Still, The Tyrells now knew that if they ever tried to rebel or do anything against the interests of the crown the Florents were there to take their place. It's a straight up threat.

This doesnt really make sense. Selyse is like 9th in line to Brightwater Keep. And the claim the Florents have to Highgarden is 300 years removed. 

 

 

[Dreadscythe95]

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

This doesnt really make sense. Selyse is like 9th in line to Brightwater Keep. And the claim the Florents have to Highgarden is 300 years removed. 

 

 

It is not at all. A claim is a claim and 300 years is not much compared to the lineages that Westerosi use to consolidate their power. Bran The Builder, Garth Greenhand, Lan the Clever, Durrandon etc are all legendary figures from hundreds of years ago that the Westorosi use to hold strength to their lineages. The Starks have ancient First men blood which makes their hold of The North very strong, they are bind with the history of the North. The Tyrells are Andals that have weak relations to the Gardeners (only through marriages) compared to many Houses of the Reach that have a direct lineage bond to Garth Greenhand. And it doesn't matter if Selyse is 9th to brightwater keep because the Baratheons don't want to claim the Brightwater Keep. They want to have a Florent to a position that threatens the Tyrells because if Stannis becomes king The Florents sit on the Iron Throne which is a no no for The Tyrells.

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Ok we can agree at least on that because I am exhausted of this convo at this point.

It's not like I haven't given you many clues already that The Stannis-Florent marriage feels completely random if you dont put the Highgarden claim they have to the table. 

Anyway...

The claim had much to di, the Florents being wealthy and powerful also did.

[Dreadscythe95]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

The claim had much to di, the Florents being wealthy and powerful also did.

They were not that god for the brother of the King though. He could have a very powerful wife.

[dsjj251]

7 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

It is not at all. A claim is a claim and 300 years is not much compared to the lineages that Westerosi use to consolidate their power. Bran The Builder, Garth Greenhand, Lan the Clever, Durrandon etc are all legendary figures from hundreds of years ago that the Westorosi use to hold strength to their lineages. The Starks have ancient First men blood which makes their hold of The North very strong, they are bind with the history of the North. The Tyrells are Andals that have weak relations to the Gardeners (only through marriages) compared to many Houses of the Reach that have a direct lineage bond to Garth Greenhand. And it doesn't matter if Selyse is 9th to brightwater keep because the Baratheons don't want to claim the Brightwater Keep. They want to have a Florent to a position that threatens the Tyrells because if Stannis becomes king The Florents sit on the Iron Throne which is a no no for The Tyrells.

Since Both the Tyrell and Gardeners lines continued, im guessing those marriages resulted in children, who would have, at some point, intermarried again, so they have blood ties as well. 

And if it was a power move to put the Tyrells on notice, Marrying a Hightower makes more sense, or atleast a Florent closer to the front of the line. By the way, she was 9th when she married Stannis, Behind her uncles, father, all her uncles male children and oldest uncles female children, she is like 17th now. 

[The Merling King]

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

And if it was a power move to put the Tyrells on notice, Marrying a Hightower makes more sense, or atleast a Florent closer to the front of the line. By the way, she was 9th when she married Stannis, Behind her uncles, father, all her uncles male children and oldest uncles female children, she is like 17th now. 

I agree but Mace was already married to Alerie Hightower before RR. The Hightower’s would have been able to give Stannis more support and influence but I’m not sure if John Arryn trusted the Hightower’s or Redwynes to break there recent marital ties to the Tyrells if they had to choose a side. Also I don’t think Robert cared but it would make Stannis very powerful if he had control of both the royal fleet and potentially the Hightower army.
 

If your trying to reduce the strength of the Tyrell-Hightower-Redwyne trifecta, which is not easy as these three house could rally as many men as some of the smaller kingdoms, would the Rowans be at the top of the second tier Reach houses?

[dsjj251]

3 hours ago, The Merling King said:

I agree but Mace was already married to Alerie Hightower before RR. The Hightower’s would have been able to give Stannis more support and influence but I’m not sure if John Arryn trusted the Hightower’s or Redwynes to break there recent marital ties to the Tyrells if they had to choose a side. Also I don’t think Robert cared but it would make Stannis very powerful if he had control of both the royal fleet and potentially the Hightower army.
 

 

Isnt it better to have a divided House Hightower because of marriages to both Baratheon and Tyrell ,rather than one united behind the Tyrells  ?? I mean, the Florents were not even wholly behind Stannis.

And another clue of the Hightowers being willing to do this (although, we dont know the outcome yet) is that Alekyne is hiding in the Hightower with his sister and its assumed Leyton allows it. 

Quote

If your trying to reduce the strength of the Tyrell-Hightower-Redwyne trifecta, which is not easy as these three house could rally as many men as some of the smaller kingdoms, would the Rowans be at the top of the second tier Reach houses?

The Rowans are indeed powerful, at least enough for the Hightowers to fear a direct confrontation with them and the combined forces of House Oakheart. But that is 250 years before our story. 

But if thats still true, wouldnt the Rowans be first tier ? If we believe Stannis, the Florents can only raise 2,000 men, and if we look at a map of The Reach and what we know of others lands, the Florents would be below many  Houses.  Second teir at best. 

I have never understood why Stannis marrying Selyse has always been seen as a good political marriage( or why people believed it was a political marriage at all)

 

I know its not a popular opinion, but Selyse and Stannis may have actually married because they are like minded individuals. And if Robert cared about political marriages, then why is Renly still single at 22 ?????

 

[Arthur Peres]

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

I have never understood why Stannis marrying Selyse has always been seen as a good political marriage( or why people believed it was a political marriage at all)

 

Agree

To quote @James Steller

Stannis really got screwed over with that marriage. Selyse Florent didn’t offer anything politically or financially to Stannis, and the perceived “threat” to House Tyrell was meaningless because the Florents would never be strong enough to take them on. It just seems like Robert and Alester Florent both got together over drinks and said “hey, we both have relatives that we hate, let’s pair them up!” 

[Trigger Warning]

5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Agree

To quote @James Steller

Stannis really got screwed over with that marriage. Selyse Florent didn’t offer anything politically or financially to Stannis, and the perceived “threat” to House Tyrell was meaningless because the Florents would never be strong enough to take them on. It just seems like Robert and Alester Florent both got together over drinks and said “hey, we both have relatives that we hate, let’s pair them up!” 

Not that I think it's a good marriage either but I'd imagine the threat is more that should Highgarden break faith with Robert then there'll be a Florent/Baratheon son (assuming they thought Stannis would have one) that could be installed as Lord of Highgarden with Royal backing. 

[Arthur Peres]

11 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Not that I think it's a good marriage either but I'd imagine the threat is more that should Highgarden break faith with Robert then there'll be a Florent/Baratheon son (assuming they thought Stannis would have one) that could be installed as Lord of Highgarden with Royal backing. 

If that would be the case, Stannis should have married someone from the main line of the Florents and probably a girl that is pretty or at least average. Selyse description, and Stannis attitude towards her, make it seems unlikely that a many childs would come of that marriage.

[Dreadscythe95]

On 4/8/2020 at 10:59 PM, dsjj251 said:

Since Both the Tyrell and Gardeners lines continued, im guessing those marriages resulted in children, who would have, at some point, intermarried again, so they have blood ties as well. 

And if it was a power move to put the Tyrells on notice, Marrying a Hightower makes more sense, or atleast a Florent closer to the front of the line. By the way, she was 9th when she married Stannis, Behind her uncles, father, all her uncles male children and oldest uncles female children, she is like 17th now. 

 They have intermarried to gether 10 times indeed and they have a strong blood bond (the bond may actually be stronger than the older Houses) but it has been noted many times that its not as improtant as having a common ancestor from the age of heroes, in The Reach coming from a kid of Garth Greenhand is the most impoortant thing (a brother of the first Gardener).  They are even First Men, The Tyrells come to Westeros a lot later, they are Andals. There is a reason that Highgarden has such an important Godswood.

Indeed marrying a Hightower would be better byt The Hightowers were already married with The Tyrells and The Redwynes as well so it would not happen while The Tyrells has no realtions with The Florents (I think that we even know that The Florents have defied Tyrell's claim to Highgarden more that every other House in The Reach)

[dsjj251]

20 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

 They have intermarried to gether 10 times indeed and they have a strong blood bond (the bond may actually be stronger than the older Houses) but it has been noted many times that its not as improtant as having a common ancestor from the age of heroes, in The Reach coming from a kid of Garth Greenhand is the most impoortant thing (a brother of the first Gardener).  They are even First Men, The Tyrells come to Westeros a lot later, they are Andals. There is a reason that Highgarden has such an important Godswood.

Indeed marrying a Hightower would be better byt The Hightowers were already married with The Tyrells and The Redwynes as well so it would not happen while The Tyrells has no realtions with The Florents (I think that we even know that The Florents have defied Tyrell's claim to Highgarden more that every other House in The Reach)

I agree with your in-book logic as to the Florents claim, i got caught up in the actual DNA argument LOL. However, it still makes more sense to marry into a more powerful house thant the Florents. 

 

The Hightower intermarriages with the Tyrells hurts a Baratheon-Florent alliance, but not a Baratheon-Hightower one. As I said before. A divided house Hightower with part of it being pro Baratheon is better than a united one against house Baratheon.

[Dreadscythe95]

2 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

I agree with your in-book logic as to the Florents claim, i got caught up in the actual DNA argument LOL. However, it still makes more sense to marry into a more powerful house thant the Florents. 

 

The Hightower intermarriages with the Tyrells hurts a Baratheon-Florent alliance, but not a Baratheon-Hightower one. As I said before. A divided house Hightower with part of it being pro Baratheon is better than a united one against house Baratheon.

Yeah this makes sense in paper but if you think about reality Leyton Hightower' s grandchildren are the heirs to Highgarden (since that marriage is far older), why would he try to hurt his own family (daughter and grandchildren) by marrying someone else from his House to The Baratheons and divide his own house in a war against his own blood, who are also The lords of his own region. Add to this the fact that The Tyrells are very close with The Redwynes as well who are also one of the strongest Houses in Westeros and they have a very connected economy with Oldtown (they are next to each other).