Daenerys is Azor Ahai Reborn

[Jaenara Belarys]

4 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

There's no reason to believe that prophecies will be fulfilled in a totally literal way. Remember Jojen's prophecy of the drowning of Winterfell.

Exactly. Thank you.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Jaenara Belarys

[divica]

Just now, Springwatch said:

There's no reason to believe that prophecies will be fulfilled in a totally literal way. Remember Jojen's prophecy of the drowning of Winterfell.

It doesn't need to be literal, but calling 3 dragons a sword is a stretch. What happens when each dragon has a rider? And what is the diference between these 3 dragons and the dragons that existed during the first long night? And what happens if one of the dragons dies? 

I am not saying it can't work. But there are a lot of things that if you focus on them don't really work as the profecy says. It can be simply the way profecy work or that danny is a red herring. 

And if people want to take so many liberties with the profecy then any flaming sword can fulfill it. Even something like beric's sword.

[Springwatch]

35 minutes ago, divica said:

It doesn't need to be literal, but calling 3 dragons a sword is a stretch.

It is, but it's a stretch made by grrm himself when he put it the mouth of Xaro. I'm not going to worry about it. GRRM promised that prophecies would bite you.

There is another hint in the text - the eyes of a monster killed by Lightbringer melted; and so did the eyes of a slaver killed by Drogon (iirc).

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What happens when each dragon has a rider? And what is the diference between these 3 dragons and the dragons that existed during the first long night? And what happens if one of the dragons dies? 

The dragon has three heads. That's got to come true somehow. Maybe the first AA did things differently. Maybe he didn't exist at all. If a dragon dies, the sword of dragon power will be that much weaker.

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I am not saying it can't work. But there are a lot of things that if you focus on them don't really work as the profecy says. It can be simply the way profecy work or that danny is a red herring. 

You're being literal again. But who knows? GRRM will do what he likes. But he would have to do a lot of work to make a 'red herring' twist satisfying to me. I don't see it at all.

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And if people want to take so many liberties with the profecy then any flaming sword can fulfill it. Even something like beric's sword.

Which is a literal flaming sword, yes, but there's a lot more in the prophecy.

I'm not prepared to ditch any AA candidates yet - if the signs are there, they mean something. I haven't given up on Stannis yet.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Springwatch

[divica]

12 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

It is, but it's a stretch made by grrm himself when he put it the mouth of Xaro. I'm not going to worry about it. GRRM promised that prophecies would bite you.s

There is another hint in the text - the eyes of a monster killed by Lightbringer melted; and so did the eyes of a slaver killed by Drogon (iirc).

They eyes of anyone burned would melt. I think it is just grrm way of describing death by fire than anything else.

13 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The dragon has three heads. That's got to come true somehow. Maybe the first AA did things differently. Maybe he didn't exist at all. If a dragon dies, the sword of dragon power will be that much weaker.

Here you assuming that the targ prophecy is the same thing and the AA profecy. And we not know if the dragon must have 3 heads at the beguing but 2 or 20 at the midle.

15 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

You're being literal again. But who knows? GRRM will do what he likes. But he would have to do a lot of work to make a 'red herring' twist satisfying to me. I don't see it at all.

The story is full of red herrings. It would be weird if there weren't some included in the AA profecy. And I am not completly against grrm creating several scenarios where multiple characters can be AA. Leave it open to interpretation.

19 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Which is a literal flaming sword, yes, but there's a lot more in the prophecy.

I'm not prepared to ditch any AA candidates yet - if the signs are there, they mean something. I haven't given up on Stannis yet.

meh, you are you still waiting for when ned wrote "until his rightful heir" instead of son in robert's will to mean something? Or for rhaego to be the stallion that mounts the world?

[El Guapo]

All I know is that if someone gave Dany a book to read and the passage she highlights describes how AAR killed a monster in an almost word to word way on how Jon killed a monster there would be no more debate and the Jon fans would tout it absolute proof.

Just sayin'

And one has to ask oneself why would GRRM even include that at all as what Jon actually reads is of no use to him whatsoever. 

Edited April 28, 2021 by El Guapo

[divica]

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

All I know is that if someone gave Dany a book to read and the passage she highlights describes how AAR killed a monster in an almost word to word way on how Jon killed a monster there would be no more debate and the Jon fans would tout it absolute proof.

Just sayin'

And one has to ask oneself why would GRRM even include that at all as what Jon actually reads is of no use to him whatsoever. 

In order to show that stannis LB is a fake because it doesn't emit heat as the true one must.

What he reads is pretty usefull for jon to know that stannis and mel are lying.

[Rose of Red Lake]

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

GRRM promised that prophecies would bite you.

The promised hero was a dragon burning everyone. That was Tolkien's twist.

[Jaenara Belarys]

7 hours ago, divica said:

It doesn't need to be literal, but calling 3 dragons a sword is a stretch. What happens when each dragon has a rider? And what is the diference between these 3 dragons and the dragons that existed during the first long night? And what happens if one of the dragons dies? 

 

Think of the Sword of Damocles. 

[divica]

58 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Think of the Sword of Damocles. 

The point is that just because up until now danny has done several things that resemble the profecy doesn't mean there is a definite proof she is AA.

It is easy to proof that there are several ways that what she has done isn't exactly what the profecy says. 

Hell, stannis converted to r'hllor in dragonstone probably under the red comet so he was reborn amidst salt and smoke under a bleeding star. He is responsable for curing shireen of greyscale and she has dragon blood, so in a way he woke a stone dragon. He took a sword from a fire and called it LB. If you take liberties stannis also is AA.

[U. B. Cool]

Stannis, fake Aegon, and Jon are the impostors, the fake Azor Ahai, who are the lies that will be slain.  Dany's identity has proven them for the impostors that they are and will be.  She became Azor Ahai when the dragons came to life.  She was also reborn in that fire.  

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, divica said:

The point is that just because up until now danny has done several things that resemble the profecy doesn't mean there is a definite proof she is AA.

It is easy to proof that there are several ways that what she has done isn't exactly what the profecy says. 

Hell, stannis converted to r'hllor in dragonstone probably under the red comet so he was reborn amidst salt and smoke under a bleeding star. He is responsable for curing shireen of greyscale and she has dragon blood, so in a way he woke a stone dragon. He took a sword from a fire and called it LB. If you take liberties stannis also is AA.

The whole warrior of light business points to a red priest and priestess.  AA forged his sword in a temple and he didn't eat or sleep for 120 days and nights while he was doing so.  He tempers the sword in a heart bathed in holy fire (a soul transformed by dragon fire) capturing Nissa Nissa's soul in the blade, making it warm to the touch.  This is far different from Beric setting his sword on fire with his blood.  It's only a representation of LB,  not even close the the real thing.  Same with Stannis' sword cludged by Mel to impress the ignorant.  I think the blank sword has to be valyrian steel forged with magic and dragonfire, then tempered in the heart of someone who's soul has been cleansed by fire.

The lore for making Valyrian steel has been lost so we won't see 120 days making the sword.  However since valyrian swords exist, presumably one could be used to temper the sword in a heart bathed in holy fire.  Mel certainly qualifies and potentially Dany.  They may play a part in tempering the sword but they won't be the one who wields it. 

  

[divica]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

The whole warrior of light business points to a red priest and priestess.  AA forged his sword in a temple and he didn't eat or sleep for 120 days and nights while he was doing so.  He tempers the sword in a heart bathed in holy fire (a soul transformed by dragon fire) capturing Nissa Nissa's soul in the blade, making it warm to the touch.  This is far different from Beric setting his sword on fire with his blood.  It's only a representation of LB,  not even close the the real thing.  Same with Stannis' sword cludged by Mel to impress the ignorant.  I think the blank sword has to be valyrian steel forged with magic and dragonfire, then tempered in the heart of someone who's soul has been cleansed by fire.

The lore for making Valyrian steel has been lost so we won't see 120 days making the sword.  However since valyrian swords exist, presumably one could be used to temper the sword in a heart bathed in holy fire.  Mel certainly qualifies and potentially Dany.  They may play a part in tempering the sword but they won't be the one who wields it. 

  

He forges the sword in a temple? And nissa nissa was bathed in holly fire? I don t remember that. But I like the idea that nissa nissa was special and it was because of it that she could temper LB instead of her relationship with AA. 

But to there are somethings really strange going on with LB. First, it is a weird jump from tempering a sword with water to using hearts of living creatures. 

Then it is clear than more than tempering he wanted to incorporate a soul into the sword. Which sounds awful and evil as fuck. 

And the problem with your valyrian sword theory is that those swords are already tempered and they don't break. I don't even know if the objective of LB is to be unbreakable like balyrian steel or to generate heat and light. It is also dubious if during the long night people knew how to forge steel. 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, divica said:

Then it is clear than more than tempering he wanted to incorporate a soul into the sword. Which sounds awful and evil as fuck. 

Salladhor Saans version:
 

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A Clash of Kings - Davos I

"A burning sword," corrected Davos.

"Burnt," said Salladhor Saan, "and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by LynnS

[LynnS]

In the above passage, AA labors in a temple - a religious building.  An assumption can be made that since he labors without sleep for such a long time, that he is a red priest and doesn't need to sleep or eat, as we learn in DwD from Mel.  She doesn't need to eat or sleep either.  

The holy fire is likely dragon fire and the steel of his blade, valyrian steel.  I think we can also make a fair assumption that Nissa Nissa is a priestess of the temple; transformed by fire in the same manner as Mel.  Her heart is bathed in holy fire according to Mel.

So we have the blood and fire of valyrian sorcery trapping Nissa Nissas soul in the blade.

This time around it isn't necessary to forge a valyrian steel sword since they exist.  To transform it into the Red Sword, someone only has to plunge it into a living heart that has been transformed by holy fire. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Khal Drogo was the Nissa Nissa whose life was sacrificed to bring the dragons back. His soul, as well as those of Viserys and Rhaego, are part of Dany's dragons. 

[Springwatch]

37 minutes ago, LynnS said:

In the above passage, AA labors in a temple - a religious building.  An assumption can be made that since he labors without sleep for such a long time, that he is a red priest and doesn't need to sleep or eat, as we learn in DwD from Mel.  She doesn't need to eat or sleep either.  

The holy fire is likely dragon fire and the steel of his blade, valyrian steel.  I think we can also make a fair assumption that Nissa Nissa is a priestess of the temple; transformed by fire in the same manner as Mel.  Her heart is bathed in holy fire according to Mel.

Good reasoning, but on the other hand, none of the red priests we've seen so far are married. Marriage seems incompatible with their fanatical devotion (slave of R'hllor). Mel could sacrifice fifty husbands without feeling woe or sorrow, and if they were all red priests, they probably wouldn't care either.

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So we have the blood and fire of valyrian sorcery trapping Nissa Nissas soul in the blade.

This time around it isn't necessary to forge a valyrian steel sword since they exist.  To transform it into the Red Sword, someone only has to plunge it into a living heart that has been transformed by holy fire. 

This is where is gets tricky. AA quenched the hot blade in a cooler liquid (we know this because the earlier blades shattered). To recreate LB, you'd have to heat up the VS steel, and why would anyone do that?

[ETA it wouldn't be tempering or quenching if the steel was room temperature]

If they did it, and it worked, there's another issue, which is there are lots of VS swords, and lots of devoted red priests. Why not multiple Lightbringers?

Edited April 29, 2021 by Springwatch
spelling, ETA

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 4/5/2020 at 12:14 PM, Wm Portnoy said:

I see a gender reversal going on with the kings in the hallway and Daenerys.  Dragons are not bound by gender.  That may be the advantage for Daenerys. 

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi.  Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat.  A thousand thousand dragons poured forth and drank the fire of the sun.  That is why dragons breathe flame.  One day, the other moon will kiss the sun too, and it will crack and the dragons will return."  [Doreah]

"Moon is no egg.  Moon is god, woman wife of the sun." [Irri]

In this case, Khal Drogo was the one who got too close to Daenerys and got burned.  Fire consumes after all.  His death brought Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal.  Daenerys represent the Sun, the Maiden Made Of Light.  Khal Drogo was the Moon.  It is easy to see why Qaithe wants her to go to Asshai.  She can bring the sun back to that darkened city. 

 

Agreed

[Loose Bolt]

If Jon will be revived by power of fire then he should be able to fuck others to death with his "flaming sword". Or he could make campaign slogan of Garrison (South Park) happen in Westeros. At least Butters would not be surprised if that happens during Long Night.

[divica]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

In the above passage, AA labors in a temple - a religious building.  An assumption can be made that since he labors without sleep for such a long time, that he is a red priest and doesn't need to sleep or eat, as we learn in DwD from Mel.  She doesn't need to eat or sleep either.  

The holy fire is likely dragon fire and the steel of his blade, valyrian steel.  I think we can also make a fair assumption that Nissa Nissa is a priestess of the temple; transformed by fire in the same manner as Mel.  Her heart is bathed in holy fire according to Mel.

So we have the blood and fire of valyrian sorcery trapping Nissa Nissas soul in the blade.

This time around it isn't necessary to forge a valyrian steel sword since they exist.  To transform it into the Red Sword, someone only has to plunge it into a living heart that has been transformed by holy fire. 

I think you are wrong about the sacred flames and there is proof of that. Notice this

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 Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

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, Moqorro remained beside his nightfire, as he did every night. The red priest rested by day but kept vigil through the dark hours, to tend his sacred flames so that the sun might return to them at dawn.

It seems that it is usual to refer to some special flames the red priests use as sacred flames. At the moment there is no reason to link these sacred flames to dragons.

I think that this expression is also very interesting "Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder". It seems like he wanted to incorporate some fire magic into a sword and the steel just couldn't handle it.

So I don t think that LB needs to be valyrian steel. I can't think of a reason for VS to burst.

If you want some cracpot theory based on logic what makes sense to me is:

AA was some red priest or r'hllor follower that was leading the fight in that area against the others. However he didn't have valyrian steel and therefore his weapons shatered when facing the others. Therefore he decided to create a special magic sword that contained fire in order to protect it from shatering when it was in contact with the other's ice swords. And as followers of r'hllor he and his nissa believed in sacrifice in order to acomplish their goals. So nissa nissa was in exctasy to be sacrificed for r'hlor and he was also happy to do it. For some reason (either nissa nissa was special or r'hllor interfered) AA was capable to create a sword that contained fire without bursting.

 

So I kind of agree that any valyrian sword should be able to copy LB but I doubt those swords would need some sacrifice to temper them. Just some red priest that knows how to put fire inside the sword.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by divica

[Springwatch]

21 hours ago, divica said:

They eyes of anyone burned would melt. I think it is just grrm way of describing death by fire than anything else.

To me, melting sounds a bit odd - I'd have expected eyes to sizzle and steam, maybe - I assume the oddness is to highlight the link. Works for me anyway.

21 hours ago, divica said:

Here you assuming that the targ prophecy is the same thing and the AA profecy. And we not know if the dragon must have 3 heads at the beguing but 2 or 20 at the midle.

It's an assumption worth considering, because experts in both traditions think Dany is their hero.

I'm not really seeing the problem with the dragons. It's just another way of saying a team isn't it?

21 hours ago, divica said:

The story is full of red herrings. It would be weird if there weren't some included in the AA profecy. And I am not completly against grrm creating several scenarios where multiple characters can be AA. Leave it open to interpretation.

I wouldn't call them red herrings, because that says mistaken identity, but I'm going with Mel's idea of one man casting many shadows. (She only sees one AA; we see more.)

21 hours ago, divica said:

meh, you are you still waiting for when ned wrote "until his rightful heir" instead of son in robert's will to mean something? Or for rhaego to be the stallion that mounts the world?

Don't think Ned's a prophet. Sometimes a character makes a random remark that turns out later to come true, but there's no way of identifying it as prophetic except with hindsight.

I'm saying the crones correctly saw a shadow of the Stallion in Rhaego, but his path was cut short. (Mel also says not all futures come to pass. Mel is full of helpful tips. )

But here's the thing. Dany is a long way down her path - the bleeding star, the dragons from stone. Prophets swarm round her like bees at a honeypot. If Rhaego is a red herring, Dany would be a red whale, and there's no graceful way to dispose of a dead red whale.