Daenerys is Azor Ahai Reborn

[Megorova]

17 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ok , but he won't be Azor Ahai. AA was not a king, he was a smith.

Azor Ahai was a priest, not a smith. ACOK, Davos I:

Quote

"Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes."

He forged that sword for 180 days in total, that's 6 months. Unless he was a priest of that temple, it's unlikely that he would have had such an extended access to the sacred fires of that temple. Also because the fire is sacred in R'hllor's religion, it means that Azor Ahai was R'hllor's priest. That's how Melisandre knows the prophecy about Azor Ahai Reborn - the followers of the first Azor Ahai recorded that prophecy at Asshai. Azor was from Asshai, that's where was build first temple of R'hllor, not at Volantis.

Just because Azor forged Lightbringer, doesn't mean that he was a smith. It's the same as - just because you can cook food, it doesn't make you a chef.

 

@CamiloRP @Lilac & Gooseberries According to the prophecy - the dragon has three heads, so there are going to be three Messiahs (because there are three dragons). Each of those three will fullfil his/her part of the prophecy - Dany had awakened dragons from stone, Rhaego was born under the Bleeding Star, Jon will wield Lightbringer.

The dragon from the prophecy is like the Holy Trinity from the Bible, only instead of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit we will have The Mother, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. Also all three of them - Dany, Rhaego, and Jon, are parellels to Biblical Jesus and the Second Coming of Jesus. ASOIAF is overflowing with Biblical symbolism. So are some of GRRM's other books, for example "The way of cross and dragon", "Call him Moses", "Manna from Heaven", "Loaves and Fishes". So, there are three Azor Ahais Reborn, not one.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

25 minutes ago, Megorova said:

@CamiloRP @Lilac & Gooseberries According to the prophecy - the dragon has three heads, so there are going to be three Messiahs (because there are three dragons). Each of those three will fullfil his/her part of the prophecy - Dany had awakened dragons from stone, Rhaego was born under the Bleeding Star, Jon will wield Lightbringer.

The dragon from the prophecy is like the Holy Trinity from the Bible, only instead of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit we will have The Mother, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. Also all three of them - Dany, Rhaego, and Jon, are parellels to Biblical Jesus and the Second Coming of Jesus. ASOIAF is overflowing with Biblical symbolism. So are some of GRRM's other books, for example "The way of cross and dragon", "Call him Moses", "Manna from Heaven", "Loaves and Fishes". So, there are three Azor Ahais Reborn, not one.

I disagree with everything you said. It’s one dragon. As Rhaegar said He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire. The dragon might need two supporters and companions but there is only one dragon. Even the example you gave about the Holy Trinity is against your proposition. The three are one, they coexist and they are consubstantial. They are not three different entities with their own agendas and no connection between them.

There is an old thread to explain that idea https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/96825-the-three-headed-trios-er-dragon/

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, Megorova said:

He forged that sword for 180 days in total, that's 6 months. Unless he was a priest of that temple, it's unlikely that he would have had such an extended access to the sacred fires of that temple. Also because the fire is sacred in R'hllor's religion, it means that Azor Ahai was R'hllor's priest. That's how Melisandre knows the prophecy about Azor Ahai Reborn - the followers of the first Azor Ahai recorded that prophecy at Asshai. Azor was from Asshai, that's where was build first temple of R'hllor, not at Volantis.

Yup, I agree with this part.  Further, how did he do this without eating or sleeping?  It makes the whole story suspect until we find out from Mel in DwD that she doesn't need to eat or sleep.  So yes,  AA was a fiery priest - likely holy fire or dragon fire was used to forge Lightbringer. And like Mel, Nissa Nissa's heart was bathed in holy fire. 
 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

"A burning sword," corrected Davos.

"Burnt," said Salladhor Saan, "and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

 

     

Edited February 19, 2021 by LynnS

[Megorova]

49 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I disagree with everything you said. It’s one dragon. As Rhaegar said He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.

Yes, it is one dragon, but that "dragon" has three heads - Dany, Rhaego and Jon are those three heads. Jon is the Prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire, and he is Lightbringer's/Dawn's wielder; while Dany is the Mother of dragons, who awakened them fom stone; and Rhaego is R'hllor's champion and the Stallion that mounts the world - ACOK, Dany IV -

"A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.".

AGOT, Dany IX - "Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo’s copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash."

That's Biblical symbols - Jesus' burning heart (in ASOIAF it's R'hllor's symbol)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Heart

Mother Mary's heart pierced with a sword/Nissa Nissa as a parallel to Mary

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Heart_of_Mary

Fire, which is R'hllor's weapon, coming out of Rhaego's mouth is a parallel to this scene fom the Bible:

https://biblehub.com/bsb/revelation/19.htm

"The Rider on the White Horse

11Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood,c and His name is The Word of God.

14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. 15And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter.d He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

Rhaego is Khal of khals. Khal means King, thus Rhaego is the King of kings, same as in the Bible the Second Jesus, the son of the Woman Clothed in the Sun.

The armies of heaven in the Bible are horsemen, same as will be Rhaego's khalasar in which he will unite all other khalasars.

When Rhaego was born, following the Bleeding Star, three wisemen from the east came to Dany to see her children. It's a parallel to how three wisemen from the east came to Mother Mary to se her son. They came to her while following the Star of Bethlehem/The Christmas Star. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem

Jon is a parallel to the Lamb of God/Agnus Dei.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_of_God

And fAegon/mummer's dragon is a parallel to Antichrist, while Golden Company is a parallel to the Beast out of the Sea:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beast_(Revelation)#Beast_from_the_sea

Varys is the Great Red Dragon/Satan, and Dany is the Woman Clothed in the Sun

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman_of_the_Apocalypse

Cersei and Euron Greyjoy are the Great Harlot and the Scarlet Beast

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon

Petyr Baelish is the False Prophet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_prophet#The_false_prophet_of_Revelation

The part of ASOIAF about the Second Long Night is a parallel to the Book of Apocalypse:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

 

There's too many Biblical elements in ASOIAF for those elements to be irrelevant or red herrings. And the three-headed dragon from the prophecy is three Messiahs, three Azor Ahais Reborn, three dragonriders. Why else GRRM added into the story not one, not two, not four, five or any other random number of dragons, but specifically three? Three dragons - three riders - three heads of the dragon, all three are King Jaehaerys' descendants, all three fulfill part of the prophecy about the Second Long Night, and each of them has his/her own role to play.

You'll see later, I am right about this.

P.S. Actually that part about the rider on white horse in the sky is not only parallel to Rhaego, it's also a parallel to Jon, who will be the only one who will know his real name - "Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows." Jon's dragon will be Viserion, which is white-gold-colored, so Jon is the rider on white "horse". He has many crowns because he is the King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men.

As you can see - it's all very tightly interwined. GRRM on purpose wrote complex parameters for the Prince that was Promised, because it's three people TOGETHER, not one.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Megorova

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

@Megorova 

Sorry but as I explained when it comes to the Holy Trinity the God is three and the three are one, they coexist and they are consubstantial.  They are not three different persons who work together.

The poster who wrote the previous thread I mentioned has also posted this one 

Its much better explained and connected with the story than your post and this is why what you said doesn’t make me question my belief.

14 minutes ago, Megorova said:

You'll see later, I am right about this.

You'll see later, you are not right about this. Is this the kind of discussion we should have?

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Yes, it is one dragon, but that "dragon" has three heads

If there is symmetry to this; then we should consider the ice dragon as well.  Dragons are fire made flesh and white walkers are ice made flesh.  I think two dragons are the Great Wolf and the man wreathed in flame.  the old powers.  Now that Bran is joined to the weirwood, he essentially becomes one of the old powers, i.e. the Great Wolf.  Dany can't see his face.  Bran needs agents to act for him.  I think that will turn out to be Jon, Arya and Sansa . They are his instruments on the ice side. Or, the three heads of the ice dragon.

On the fiery side is the man wreathed in flames and the dragon that transforms her soul in her wake the dragon dream.  Dany is one of his instruments.  Jon is also an instrument and I'm guessing Tyrion will turn out to be the 3rd instrument., 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

"What do you see, my lady?" the boy asked, softly.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow. Whenever she was asked what she saw within her fires, Melisandre would answer, "Much and more," but seeing was never as simple as those words suggested. It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R'hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow. "Devan," she called, "a drink." Her throat was raw and parched.

 

How's that for outside the box?

Edited February 19, 2021 by LynnS

[Megorova]

43 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Sorry but as I explained when it comes to the Holy Trinity the God is three and the three are one, they coexist and they are consubstantial.  They are not three different persons who work together.

Jesus was crucified. His Father and the Holy Spirit weren't crucified.

Jesus' mother was Mary. Mary wasn't the Father's mother, nor did she gave birth to the Holy Spirit.

Jesus died, the God (Father) didn't.

See here the controversity?

Even though the Holy Trinity is one being, nevertheless they had different (life) experiences. Like Jesus was born, was growing up amongst people (for 33 years), died, was resurrected, went to Heaven. While the Father in the beginning of times was busy with creating the world, people, etc. And the Holy Spirit, prior the creation of the world, was roaming in space above nothingness, in which God then created the world.

Etc.

Three. Not the same.

43 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

You'll see later, you are not right about this. Is this the kind of discussion we should have?

35 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think two dragons are the Great Wolf and the man wreathed in flame.  the old powers. 

Or - the first dragon/head of the dragon is Dany. White the Great Wolf, or rather it was there - the man with a wolf's head, is Jon; and the man in flames is Rhaego/R'hllor's champion.

35 minutes ago, LynnS said:

How's that for outside the box?

If we had an applauding smiley, amongst Emojis available on this forum, then I would have posted it here.

That's a fairly straightforward information from GRRM, thru Mel's vision he informed readers that Jon is Azor Ahai. I don't get it why people are arguing that Jon isn't, it's Dany and Dany only, and completely ignore the part that AAR is supposed to be a warrior, and he supposed to wield Lightbringer. The idea that Lightbringer is not a sword, but rather it's Dany's three dragons is laughable. Laughable and ridiculous.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Megorova

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Azor Ahai was a priest, not a smith. ACOK, Davos I:

He forged that sword for 180 days in total, that's 6 months. Unless he was a priest of that temple, it's unlikely that he would have had such an extended access to the sacred fires of that temple. Also because the fire is sacred in R'hllor's religion, it means that Azor Ahai was R'hllor's priest. That's how Melisandre knows the prophecy about Azor Ahai Reborn - the followers of the first Azor Ahai recorded that prophecy at Asshai. Azor was from Asshai, that's where was build first temple of R'hllor, not at Volantis.

Just because Azor forged Lightbringer, doesn't mean that he was a smith. It's the same as - just because you can cook food, it doesn't make you a chef.

 

@CamiloRP @Lilac & Gooseberries According to the prophecy - the dragon has three heads, so there are going to be three Messiahs (because there are three dragons). Each of those three will fullfil his/her part of the prophecy - Dany had awakened dragons from stone, Rhaego was born under the Bleeding Star, Jon will wield Lightbringer.

The dragon from the prophecy is like the Holy Trinity from the Bible, only instead of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit we will have The Mother, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. Also all three of them - Dany, Rhaego, and Jon, are parellels to Biblical Jesus and the Second Coming of Jesus. ASOIAF is overflowing with Biblical symbolism. So are some of GRRM's other books, for example "The way of cross and dragon", "Call him Moses", "Manna from Heaven", "Loaves and Fishes". So, there are three Azor Ahais Reborn, not one.

Well, I fundamentally mistrust prophecy, so I doubt it, I specially mistrust prophecy in asoiaf, as George beats us over the head with it not being trustworthy (and he does the same in his other works) and I specially mistrust Red Raloo's prophecy, as that religion is in the top two for the most disgusting religions and I doubt George would prove them right.

 

1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I disagree with everything you said. It’s one dragon. As Rhaegar said He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire. The dragon might need two supporters and companions but there is only one dragon. Even the example you gave about the Holy Trinity is against your proposition. The three are one, they coexist and they are consubstantial. They are not three different entities with their own agendas and no connection between them.

There is an old thread to explain that idea https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/96825-the-three-headed-trios-er-dragon/

Rhaegar can be wrong tho.

 

I think prophecy is a mere tool of manipulation by telepathic pupetmasters. George has written about prophecy being a sort of manual (if you do X then Y will happen) so anyone could be Azor Ahai, as long a they follow the instructions. But that isn't a good thing as AA is a warrior, and is that what Westeros needs? More warriors? A warrior-king-god?

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

21 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Three. Not the same.

I am sorry if I sound rude but I don’t believe that you understand how the Trinity works. I will quote the Wikipedia where you can find the books they use as their bibliography

Quote

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus "threefold")[1] holds that God is one God, but three coeternal and consubstantial persons:[2][3] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios).[4] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, whereas a "person" is who one is.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

 

14 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Rhaegar can be wrong tho.

 

I think prophecy is a mere tool of manipulation by telepathic pupetmasters. George has written about prophecy being a sort of manual (if you do X then Y will happen) so anyone could be Azor Ahai, as long a they follow the instructions. But that isn't a good thing as AA is a warrior, and is that what Westeros needs? More warriors? A warrior-king-god?

I agree and even more we have never seen the full prophecy just some fragments here and there. That is why I believe that all the prophecies are about one person. The characteristics of the person are based on his followers. In Asshai they make him a warrior of fire, a Targaryen believes that is a dragon with three heads. Much like in real world Jesus, Osiris and Dionysus seem to be the same character in light of different followers and cultures.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Lilac & Gooseberries

[HoodedCrow]

Oh, that’s why the wine miracle? Dionysus?

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Jesus was crucified. His Father and the Holy Spirit weren't crucified.

Jesus' mother was Mary. Mary wasn't the Father's mother, nor did she gave birth to the Holy Spirit.

Jesus died, the God (Father) didn't.

See here the controversity?

Even though the Holy Trinity is one being, nevertheless they had different (life) experiences. Like Jesus was born, was growing up amongst people (for 33 years), died, was resurrected, went to Heaven. While the Father in the beginning of times was busy with creating the world, people, etc. And the Holy Spirit, prior the creation of the world, was roaming in space above nothingness, in which God then created the world.

All the various religious comparison are interesting but often go too far into the weeds for me.  If there is a comparison, then Bran is the one who is metaphorically crucified.   But it's not a comparison I will carry on with.  It is in a sense a distraction and a place to get tangled up in the weeds.

17 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Or - the first dragon/head of the dragon is Dany. White the Great Wolf, or rather it was there - the man with a wolf's head, is Jon; and the man in flames is Rhaego/R'hllor's champion.

I'm going with Bran because we already saw Bran and Bloodraven break into Mel's fire vision when she searches for the ancient enemy.  Mel can't see past Bran when he is warging Summer.  His identity is hidden from her.  This is why he tells Jon at the Skirling Pass that isn't afraid anymore.  He can see them but they can't see him.  The same thing happens when Bran is warging Hodor.  Mel sees a face but she's expecting something evil so she dismisses the vision.  Jon isn't one of the old gods.  Bran has become one of the old gods when he weds the tree.

I do think Jon will become AA in the end and he will be the only one who is both the instrument of R'hllor and the old gods.  That he will "drink from both cups of ice and fire."

I think the dragon has 3 heads is referring to actors or agents of Bran and R'Hllor.  I think we should be looking for instruments of these powers rather than dragon riders.  Mel keeps asking to see R'hllor's instrument.  These powers have to act through others on both sides, ice and fire.

 

[Megorova]

55 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Well, I fundamentally mistrust prophecy, so I doubt it, I specially mistrust prophecy in asoiaf, as George beats us over the head with it not being trustworthy (and he does the same in his other works) and I specially mistrust Red Raloo's prophecy, as that religion is in the top two for the most disgusting religions and I doubt George would prove them right.

The part that AAR supposed to be a warrior, was recorded in the Book of Signs and Portents, written by Daenys the Dreamer. She's a trustworthy source of information, because what she previously predicted (the Doom of Valyria) did happened.

Also she predicted in her book that the dragons will return. Egg said to Dunk that his grandfather, King Daeron II, have read that prophecy in a book. And that's the same book, reading which, Rhaegar thought that he is the Promised Prince (about this part he was wrong), and also that the Prince is supposed to be a warrior, and that the song of ice and fire will be his song.

So it's not only Red Raloo's prophecy, it's also Daenys' prophecy. And what she predicted did happened once (about the Doom), twice (about the return of dragons), so it will happen third time too (Jon - the Promised Prince and wielder of Lightbringer, Dany - Mother of Dragons, Rhaego - the Stallion that mounts the world (whose birth was also predicted by the Dothraki prophets) and R'hllor's champion, born under the Bleeding Star.)

41 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I am sorry if I sound rude but I don’t believe that you understand how the Trinity works. I will quote the Wikipedia where you can find the books they use as their bibliography

As "the blood of the dragon"/Targaryens by blood, all three of them - Dany, Rhaego, and Jon - are "fire made flesh", same as dragons, thus all of them are one - R'hllor's weapon. The three-headed dragon. Same as Targaryen sigil, which represents Aegon and his sister-wives, or - House Targaryen as one entity.

31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think the dragon has 3 heads is referring to actors or agents of Bran and R'Hllor.  I think we should be looking for instruments of these powers rather than dragon riders.  Mel keeps asking to see R'hllor's instrument.  These powers have to act through others on both sides, ice and fire.

Sorry, but that's all wrong. The Others don't have agents. Both Bloodraven and Bran are not agents, rather they are snacks, food for the Weirwood, nothing more.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Megorova

[LynnS]

46 minutes ago, Megorova said:

That's a fairly straightforward information from GRRM, thru Mel's vision he informed readers that Jon is Azor Ahai. I don't get it why people are arguing that Jon isn't, it's Dany and Dany only, and completely ignore the part that AAR is supposed to be a warrior, and he supposed to wield Lightbringer. The idea that Lightbringer is not a sword, but rather it's Dany's three dragons is laughable. Laughable and ridiculous.

I don't think it is straight forward. Martin is always throwing curve balls and don't want to ridicule people because for all intents and purposes, it does look like Dany is AAR.   But we are also told that she is mother of dragons and bride of fire.  So I'm not sure anymore that she is AAR.  

Mel refers to the soul of ice.  So is there a soul of fire?  I'd say yes - the man wreathed in flame who shows up in Dany's wake the dragon dream as the Great Dragon who transforms her with holy fire.  Her soul is joined to the soul of fire and she becomes the bride of fire and then mother of dragons..  This is when she has temporary immunity from fire, hatches the dragon eggs and ambient fire magic is strengthened. 

Martin has come out now and said the fire is love, life and light.  Dany represents this side of the equation and I think she will turn out to be Nissa Nissa to the one will sacrifice herself for love to whomever comes out as AA.

So will someone join with the soul of ice.  I think yes and it will be Jon.  How does this happen?  I'm guessing that the original sword ice contains the soul of ice and by claiming it from crypts; Jon will become the soul of ice.   So he will be the Hate, dark, death side of stuff.

What Jojen tells us is that if ice can burn, then love and hate can mate.  Love and hate, fire and ice or more specifically ice and fire.

We suspect these magical swords (valyrian steel) can draw out the soul and contain it.  So what would happen should Jon plunge Longclaw through Dany's heart or Dany transformed into a dragon?  Does he make the fiery sword in the same way that AAR does? And if the sword and the warrior are one; does this spiritual fire then cleanse Jon's soul of darkness and hate?  Does this transform and cleanse the soul of ice once and for all?  Is this the meaning of Jojen's statement:  If ice can burn...

So there you go.  Broad strokes and swiss cheese.

     

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Sorry, but that's all wrong. The Others don't have agents. Both Bloodraven and Bran are not agents, rather they are snacks, food for the Weirwood, nothing more.

OK we're done.

[Megorova]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Mel refers to the soul of ice.  So is there a soul of fire?  I'd say yes - 1. the man wreathed in flame who shows up in Dany's wake the dragon dream as the Great Dragon who transforms her with holy fire.  2. Her soul is joined to the soul of fire and she becomes the bride of fire and then mother of dragons..  This is when she has temporary immunity from fire, hatches the dragon eggs and ambient fire magic is strengthened. 

Martin has come out now and said the fire is love, life and light.  Dany represents this side of the equation and I think she will turn out to be Nissa Nissa to the one will sacrifice herself for love to whomever comes out as AA.

Jon and Dany are parallels to Jesus and the Bride of the Lamb. In the Bible the wedding of the Bride and the Lamb is a simbolical union of the church, or whatever. The point is - Dany is the mother of dragons (Rhaego's mother, and she will have more childen with Jon after they will marry), and she is the bride of fire (because she will marry with Jon, and Jon is the fire/Azor Ahai Reborn (one of three)).

1 is about Dany giving birth to Rhaego, and 2 is about Dany becoming Jon's wife. Just think about this.

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

OK we're done.

What else is missing on this forum is a sighing smiley, or else I would have posted it here.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Megorova

[CamiloRP]

47 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I am sorry if I sound rude but I don’t believe that you understand how the Trinity works. I will quote the Wikipedia where you can find the books they use as their bibliography

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

 

I agree and even more we have never seen the full prophecy just some fragments here and there. That is why I believe that all the prophecies are about one person. The characteristics of the person are based on his followers. In Asshai they make him a warrior of fire, a Targaryen believes that is a dragon with three heads. Much like in real world Jesus, Osiris and Dionysus seem to be the same character in light of different followers and cultures.

Yeah I get that, but the primary source we have is Raloo, and it would be validating him most of all.

 

8 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The part that AAR supposed to be a warrior, was recorded in the Book of Signs and Portents, written by Daenys the Dreamer. She's a trustworthy source of information, because what she previously predicted (the Doom of Valyria) did happened.

Also she predicted in her book that the dragons will return. Egg said to Dunk that his grandfather, King Daeron II, have read that prophecy in a book. And that's the same book, reading which, Rhaegar thought that he is the Promised Prince (about this part he was wrong), and also that the Prince is supposed to be a warrior, and that the song of ice and fire will be his song.

So it's not only Red Raloo's prophecy, it's also Daenys' prophecy. And what she predicted did happened once (about the Doom), twice (about the return of dragons), so it will happen third time too (Jon - the Promised Prince and wielder of Lightbringer, Dany - Mother of Dragons, Rhaego - the Stallion that mounts the world (whose birth was also predicted by the Dothraki prophets) and R'hllor's champion, born under the Bleeding Star.)

As "the blood of the dragon"/Targaryens by blood, all three of them - Dany, Rhaego, and Jon - are "fire made flesh", same as dragons, thus all of them are one - R'hllor's weapon. The three-headed dragon. Same as Targaryen sigil, which represents Aegon and his sister-wives, or - House Targaryen as one entity.

That's how fortune-tellers work, isn't it? They are correct once or twice and then you trust in them forever. I talked about this in here before, but to me there are four types of visions: already happened (Ned's death in Bran's POV), can't not happen (a vulcanic eruption), self fullying (younger more beautiful queen) and instructions (Azor Ahai). So, a puppet master sees Ned's death, they send the information far away, and it validifies them. Similarly, they see a bunch of magma about to eruption, and predict a vulcanic eruption, more validation, the they can send whatever they want because people will believe them. And this is not me making stuff up, this shows up in other GRRM stories. 

Who send Daenys her visions? Why? As Meera says, why would the gods send visions of we can't change what's to come? Either they want to be validated or they are manipulating the one receiving the visions.

[CamiloRP]

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

What else is missing on this forum is a sighing smiley, or else I would have posted it here.

Lynss right tho, while I don't personally agree with them, you keep acting like you have the absolute truth. There's no point in arguing with that. And it's close minded as hell.

Edited February 19, 2021 by CamiloRP

[Megorova]

5 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Who send Daenys her visions? Why? As Meera says, why would the gods send visions of we can't change what's to come?

R'hllor.

To save Targaryens from the Doom. Because he had plans to use them in the future, during the Second Long Night.

And Targaryens departing from Valyria didn't changed the outcome of what Daenys saw in her vision - the Doom of Valyria. Not the Doom of Targaryens. So, what was seen in the vision can't be changed/prevented, but other factors around that event/being/item/happening could be used by the prophet, or by whoever will know that prophecy.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Megorova

[CamiloRP]

3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

R'hllor.

To save Targaryens from the Doom. Because he had plans to use them in the future, during the Second Long Night.

And Targaryens departing from Valyria didn't chnaged the outcome of what Daenys saw in her vision - the Doom of Valyria. Not the Doom of Targaryens.

So, the god who's religion is based on burning people alive and hating anyone who doesn't practice it is the good guy? That's the least GRRM thing in the world. That would be proving right extremist (something he's fully against) and proving right the most disgusting people in Planethos.

[The Commentator]

On 4/4/2020 at 10:47 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

I pulled up an old topic from long ago.  I thought it worth the effort to widen the scope of this discussion. 

We started off talking about the "ghosts" in the hallway and their swords.  I want to bring in additional materials that may help in the discussion, for those who would care to talk about this old topic.

From Pate:

There are at least four of these "candles."  Valyria is the accepted origin.

From Armen:

Why would a candle have sharp edges?  Only weapons have sharp edges.  Knowledge can be dangerous but not as dangerous as ignorance.  I don't agree with this part of Armen's opinion.

From Leo:

The source of light is obviously not a flame. 

From Armen:

No it does not.  Marwyn thinks it's obsidian though. 

From Samwell:

So what kind of light makes whites look like that?  Something that has ultra-violet.  The perfect light to use against creatures who live at night.  They burn instead of getting a sun tan. 

From Will:

So once again, we have swords that glow in the dark.  This one gives off blue light. 

From Ned:

Arthur's sword glows in the dark?  It is described as glass-like.

From Daenerys:

We assumed in the first discussion that these men were not the Targaryen kings of Westeros.  The Targaryens do not name themselves or their reign in terms of gem stones.  These men were older, from a long time ago.  These men were Azor Ahai of his time.  Their clothes were ragged because they were living through the long night.  So why is Daenerys important to them?  I believe it is because she is Azor Ahai for this time.  She is the one who can "wake the dragon."  The dragon represents fire and light. 

From Quaithe:

It is my opinion that the death of Khal Drogo lit the candles.  Khal Drogo is Nissa Nissa. 

From The World of Ice & Fire:

So it is believed the Blood Betrayal caused the Long Night.  I'm doubtful, but let's continue.  It is obvious to me, Maiden-Made-of-Light is the Sun.  Lion of Night is the Moon.

From Old Nan:

This looks like a climate change to me.  Change the environment and it favors another species.  The definition of who is fittest can change.  Darkness and cold favor the white walkers.

From The World of Ice & Fire:

This is clear evidence.  The threat existed long before the blood betrayal took place.  Why else would the effort to build and guard these fortresses be sensible.  The size of the defense is equal to the seriousness of the threat.  The blood betrayal did not create the threat.

From The World of Ice & Fire:

The "ghosts" must have failed.  They are hailed as heroes in the records but I think the climate changed on its own.  The long night ended but the empire remained broken.  I believe this is important, but more on this later.  Parts of the old ruling families still exists and rule fractions of what was the old empire. 

From The World of Ice & Fire:

Amethyst is a purple-blue color.  This guy, Bu Gai, must have descended from the Amethyst Empress (family) of old. 

From George Martin: (not an exact quote)

From Quaithe:

From Daenerys and Quaithe:

From The World of Ice & Fire:

No people in their right mind would build with this stone in a place like this.  Unless it wasn't like this when it was built.  Asshai must have been normal in the past.  Something happened to corrupt the very stone of the city itself and contaminate the land around it.  Perhaps this is the after effects of the long night.

I know.  Whew that was long.  But I hope you will agree with me.  It is important for Daenerys Targaryen to learn this truth to avoid a repeat of what happened in this part of the world.  The Amethyst Empress was not an individual but a political faction and family branch.  The Red was also a political faction.  Much like the Tigers and the Elephants in the free cities today.  The blood betrayal caused a political and social divide.  The empire could no longer properly defend its borders because they were divided.  Daenerys assumed Asshai but Quaithe probably meant Yin.  Lightbringer's role is to restore and to rebuild after the end of the long night.  It is easier to accept Lightbringer being glass lanterns to light the world through the long night.  It may even be a weapon because it is sharp.  At least some enable communication.  I don't rule out that there is an actual sword called Lightbringer but an object with multiple uses, weapon, lantern, and telephone, is much more useful.  The Valyrians perhaps didn't know what it was and repurposed the glass objects into communication devices.  The phrase "to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow" mean the long night cannot be stopped nor avoided.  Daenerys will have to live through the darkness before she can again enjoy light and warmth.  Which is fitting because the last title will be A Dream of Spring.  Knowing this truth will help her prepare herself and her people to live through the long night and rebuild afterwards.  The last part is something the previous Azor Ahai was never able to do.

Very fitting.  Daenerys Targaryen is the Azor Ahai.  We should think of Azor Ahai as an inherited title passed down through the Targaryen bloodline.