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James Fenimore Cooper XXII

Daenerys is Azor Ahai Reborn

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On 4/4/2020 at 10:47 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings.  In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.  “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.”

 

On 4/4/2020 at 10:47 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

We assumed in the first discussion that these men were not the Targaryen kings of Westeros.  The Targaryens do not name themselves or their reign in terms of gem stones.  These men were older, from a long time ago.  These men were Azor Ahai of his time.  Their clothes were ragged because they were living through the long night.  So why is Daenerys important to them?  I believe it is because she is Azor Ahai for this time.  She is the one who can "wake the dragon."  The dragon represents fire and light. 

 

Lightbringer has qualities which reminds me of Bilbo's dagger, sting.  She is Azor Ahai and the candles are lit because of the White Walkers.  

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Posted (edited)

She is literally called Mhysa! Mhysa!

Can’t be Azor Ahai. She is Nissa Nissa.

Edited by Egged

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6 hours ago, Egged said:

She is literally called Mhysa! Mhysa!

Can’t be Azor Ahai. She is Nissa Nissa.

I'll go with that.  Mother of dragons, bride of fire and AA will be the one who plunges his sword into her fiery heart to 'forge' Lightbringer.  I think we've been given the template.  A valyrian steel sword will do.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'll go with that.  Mother of dragons, bride of fire and AA will be the one who plunges his sword into her fiery heart to 'forge' Lightbringer.  I think we've been given the template.  A valyrian steel sword will do.

I think it will be Jorah with Heartsbane. I think the Bear and the Maiden Fair is a song about Jorah and Dany. He is infatuated with her, but it is not reciprocal. In the song it's clear the maid feels harassed by him, and the last line when it sounds like she suddenly loves the bear when she was kicking him screaming just the line before it is a lie, because songs are like that. Jorah is an obsessive-possessive man and clearly doesn't love any woman, he just has an obsession with young beautiful girls. He is a northerner who became a knight, probably due to a passion for stories of chivalry and honor and damsels in distress. He's a foolish romantic. She will never love him.

The Dornishman's Wife I think is the sequel to the Bear and the Maiden Fair, and I think it's after Jorah kills her. There is the line about Valyrian Steel (black steel), that the sword has a bite sharp like a leech (Nissa Nissa's soul went in the sword, and we know blood is involved with the creation of Valyrian steel), and there is the line about her voice being like a sweet peach which is what Jorah gave her before, which Dany found so sweet she could cry. All that's missing is for her to marry a Dornishman, like Darkstar.

Jon will never bring himself to kill Daenerys, I think. She is the only one with the power to protect the wildlings from the Westerosis who will never accept them, and from slavers that will inevitably come for them through the GC or the Bank of Braavos. He'll be in a position to do it but won't. Jorah on the other hand, he would do it "out of love" for her, with his typical clouded-judgement where killing her is seen as done out of love for who "she truly is" and save her from "what she has become" which he would typically blame on others.

The dream she has where the old kings tell her to run faster and faster sounds to me like her about to get stabbed in the back, and then she skinchanges into a dragon.

Victarion has, for some reason, been linked to Heartsbane by George in the books already as he says he'd take it from Tarly. I think he will, but eventually Dany gives the sword to Jorah (probably after Vic dies), as she had promised she'd get him one.

Edited by Egged

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22 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

 

Lightbringer has qualities which reminds me of Bilbo's dagger, sting.  She is Azor Ahai and the candles are lit because of the White Walkers.  

Agreed

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3 hours ago, Egged said:

I think it will be Jorah with Heartsbane.

I think it will be Jon, the soul of ice transformed when he plunges Longclaw into the the fiery heart.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think it will be Jon, the soul of ice transformed when he plunges Longclaw into the the fiery heart.

I think even that could be about her getting stabbed with Ice:

Quote

Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice.

But my line of thinking is that all of the prophecies are the result of people accessing the weirwood in the past and seeing what went into it in the future, and that Bran will literally figure out how to change the timeline.

Quote

Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come.

How can you not change the future if you see it clearly? Bloodraven's answer is that because the future is not clear you can't change it. Well is Bloodraven the TEC? Is he the one pecking at Bran to reveal his third eye? Or was that someone else? He's the Three Eyed Crow, not Three Eyed Raven, and Old Nan said all crows are liars. I believe Bran will do what BR did not expect and that will trigger Bran's exit from the cave.

So the whole "Prince that was promised" thing will exist in the current timeline, but Bran will knock it out the way and it will never come to pass. Bran will literally prevent Jon from being the story's hero through puppeteering shenanigans. I think Jon will feel something is up, that some force is trying to push him to kill her, and he'll stand his ground and refuse to. So in comes Jorah, redeemed in the history of men as a double agent, and Jon getting the really bad reputation (the whole Lord Snow thing with Ramsay is probably going to rub off on him, rumors spread, history gets distorted easily).

Bran is a highly impatient kid, constantly cuts of Meera as she tells her story like he's the boss, he skinchanges Hodor when he's bored, heck it wouldn't surprise me if skinchanged Coldhands to be a bad ass.

Bran has no more father or mother figure, he's not trustworthy, he's not mature, and if his maturity comes from accessing the weirwood and seeing thousands of years of history I don't think it will turn out too well. No boy who mouths off Old Nan is a good boy ;)

Edited by Egged

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On 3/4/2021 at 11:29 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean let's be honest all of us here on this forum are just arguing for the fun of it, why else would we be here if not to debate and argue?

Sure. But also to hear people's thoughts, actual new ideas. So don't you shoot down our high-flying phoenixes - I like them.

On 3/4/2021 at 11:29 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Now as for the evidence, the only pieces of evidence are the the dragons and Azor Ahai's thing about waking the stone dragons.

Also smoke and salt, a bleeding star, a true love killed, a burning sword that melts the eyes of monsters. I'm not saying Dany's story follows AA's step by step, but she comes a lot closer than Jon does.

On 3/4/2021 at 11:29 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

There are at least three options for the savior mythos, there's the Last Hero, there's Azor Ahai and there's the Rhoynar story. Only one of them features dragons.

I suspect the PtwP is a fork of the AA legend. The Last Hero is so different, there's not point calling him AA, and the same for the-Last-Hero-reborn, if that appears. Don't know the Rhoynar story, sorry.

On 3/4/2021 at 11:29 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

But even with the dragons, just MMD giving her dragons is not really a good basis for becoming Azor Ahai or even worse Queen.

MMD didn't give her anything. The pyre ceremony was designed by Dany.

On 3/4/2021 at 11:29 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical desert ceremony. You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some Lazareen tart threw some lizards at you. I mean if I went around saying I was an King just because some desert bink had lobbed a lizard at me they'd put me away.

Democracy is an incredibly small part of human history, and sometimes feels so fragile. Scary thought. Most of the time it's the strong men.

Anyway. In the books, some kind of godhead actually exists, which appears to be re-creating the hero AA. People's mandate not required.

On 3/4/2021 at 11:29 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Jokes aside, the dragons are I think the greatest arguments against Dany being Azor Ahai.

Two of the savior story we know are about making peace to fight a greater enemy, only the Rhallo version being about the savior riding dragons and wielding Lightbringer saving the day.

Most likely there are two or more heroes, one of which is AA.

On 3/4/2021 at 11:29 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Therefore I think the hero will be the one to bring the forces against the Others through peace and compromise. That will be either Stannis giving up his kingship for the greater good, or Jon rallying everything and everyone against the Others.

And like really think about it from GRRM's POV. How should the hero save the world? Through peace and compromise or through nukes?

Life as a song, in other words. You're probably right.

Real life is a lot more complicated.

On 3/4/2021 at 11:29 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Finally, there's also the fact that Dany's plot is not tied to the WW in any way shape or form. Her being Azor Ahai makes as much sense as Arya being the one to end the Long Night.

The dragons are definitely Fire, the Others definitely Ice - so they are equivalent power blocs. The task of the peacemakers will be a lot easier if they can point out the incredible costs of these two going to war - instead of dealing with Ice only and doing a lot of polite begging.

If the Long Night can be ended by killing something, Arya is the one to do it.

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Posted (edited)

The Last Hero had a sword which snapped from the cold as his companions were dying and the Others were closing in on him. Then somehow he survives and later on he has a new sword the Others can’t stand against. Sure sounds like he forged himself a new special sword.

Also twelve companions and thirteenth lord commander, there is a potential link. In which case the LH came back with the corpse bride, but as old Nan said he was “man by day but the night was his to rule” he was conflicted and eventually tried to forge a sword that could break what may have been a Craster-like pact. He kills his bride (skin white like the moon) with it, she cracks like the Other did when Sam killed one, “left a crack on the face of the moon”.

So LH, NK, AA and possibly even BtB could be the same person.

Hightower stands on salt water and it is a smoking tower where something is being prepared by Leyton Hightower and his daughter and we have the vision of a stone beast flying from it and there was a grey plague at Old Town in the past:

Quote

And beyond, where the Honeywine widened into Whispering Sound, rose the Hightower, its beacon fires bright against the dawn. From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword.

From the maesters’ point of view, they are the ones who bring dawn against the old gods’ own dawn.

Quote

"Gone down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

Leaf literally says here, a long night for them is a dawn for humans.

Edited by Egged

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47 minutes ago, Egged said:

The Last Hero had a sword which snapped from the cold as his companions were dying and the Others were closing in on him. Then somehow he survives and later on he has a new sword the Others can’t stand against. Sure sounds like he forged himself a new special sword.

This my take on the Last Hero.  Broad stokes and uncertainty principles apply.

Who forged Ice? - Page 2 - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones (westeros.org)

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Azor Ahai and her dragons will usher in the new dawn after the ice has receded.  The wights can be burned away as we saw in the Trident vision.  This army of ice will consists of wightified northern people led by a Stark.  So yes, it will be a fight between the fire of the dragons and their allies against the ice of the Starks and the White Walkers.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/6/2021 at 10:14 AM, Springwatch said:

If the Long Night can be ended by killing something, Arya is the one to do it.

I think Arya will be instrumental in bringing down the House of Black and White and putting an end to the Faceless Men.

Perhaps some foreshadowing:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"Swear it," Arya said. "Swear it by the gods."

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."

He has sworn. "Even if I named the king . . ."

"Speak the name, and death will come. On the morrow, at the turn of the moon, a year from this day, it will come. A man does not fly like a bird, but one foot moves and then another and one day a man is there, and a king dies." He knelt beside her, so they were face-to-face. "A girl whispers if she fears to speak aloud. Whisper it now. Is it Joffrey?"

Arya put her lips to his ear. "It's Jaqen H'ghar."

In the end, I think the House of Black and White has to be destroyed.  I think that can only be done by an insider.  It may be that the Faceless Men eventually pursue Arya:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief," the dwarf woman was saying. "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." She turned her head sharply and smiled through the gloom, right at Arya. "You cannot hide from me, child. Come closer, now."

The maid is Arya, rather than Sansa, as a medusa figure.  The feast is the Weasel Soup incident at Harrenhall.  The savage giant may be a reference to the stone giant of Braavos and the Faceless Men.

Edited by LynnS

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On 4/4/2020 at 10:47 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

No people in their right mind would build with this stone in a place like this.  Unless it wasn't like this when it was built.  Asshai must have been normal in the past.  Something happened to corrupt the very stone of the city itself and contaminate the land around it.  Perhaps this is the after effects of the long night.

Bran is beginning to like the darkness.  Maybe his magic will get strong enough to turn Winterfell into something like Asshai.  

 

On 4/4/2020 at 10:47 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Some say that the city is built of black stone.  Some say as well that the stone of Asshai has a greasy, unpleasant feel to it, that it seems to drink the light, dimming tapers and torches and hearth fires alike.

 

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On 4/4/2020 at 10:47 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

I pulled up an old topic from long ago.  I thought it worth the effort to widen the scope of this discussion. 

We started off talking about the "ghosts" in the hallway and their swords.  I want to bring in additional materials that may help in the discussion, for those who would care to talk about this old topic.

From Pate:

There are at least four of these "candles."  Valyria is the accepted origin.

From Armen:

Why would a candle have sharp edges?  Only weapons have sharp edges.  Knowledge can be dangerous but not as dangerous as ignorance.  I don't agree with this part of Armen's opinion.

From Leo:

The source of light is obviously not a flame. 

From Armen:

No it does not.  Marwyn thinks it's obsidian though. 

From Samwell:

So what kind of light makes whites look like that?  Something that has ultra-violet.  The perfect light to use against creatures who live at night.  They burn instead of getting a sun tan. 

From Will:

So once again, we have swords that glow in the dark.  This one gives off blue light. 

From Ned:

Arthur's sword glows in the dark?  It is described as glass-like.

From Daenerys:

We assumed in the first discussion that these men were not the Targaryen kings of Westeros.  The Targaryens do not name themselves or their reign in terms of gem stones.  These men were older, from a long time ago.  These men were Azor Ahai of his time.  Their clothes were ragged because they were living through the long night.  So why is Daenerys important to them?  I believe it is because she is Azor Ahai for this time.  She is the one who can "wake the dragon."  The dragon represents fire and light. 

From Quaithe:

It is my opinion that the death of Khal Drogo lit the candles.  Khal Drogo is Nissa Nissa. 

From The World of Ice & Fire:

So it is believed the Blood Betrayal caused the Long Night.  I'm doubtful, but let's continue.  It is obvious to me, Maiden-Made-of-Light is the Sun.  Lion of Night is the Moon.

From Old Nan:

This looks like a climate change to me.  Change the environment and it favors another species.  The definition of who is fittest can change.  Darkness and cold favor the white walkers.

From The World of Ice & Fire:

This is clear evidence.  The threat existed long before the blood betrayal took place.  Why else would the effort to build and guard these fortresses be sensible.  The size of the defense is equal to the seriousness of the threat.  The blood betrayal did not create the threat.

From The World of Ice & Fire:

The "ghosts" must have failed.  They are hailed as heroes in the records but I think the climate changed on its own.  The long night ended but the empire remained broken.  I believe this is important, but more on this later.  Parts of the old ruling families still exists and rule fractions of what was the old empire. 

From The World of Ice & Fire:

Amethyst is a purple-blue color.  This guy, Bu Gai, must have descended from the Amethyst Empress (family) of old. 

From George Martin: (not an exact quote)

From Quaithe:

From Daenerys and Quaithe:

From The World of Ice & Fire:

No people in their right mind would build with this stone in a place like this.  Unless it wasn't like this when it was built.  Asshai must have been normal in the past.  Something happened to corrupt the very stone of the city itself and contaminate the land around it.  Perhaps this is the after effects of the long night.

I know.  Whew that was long.  But I hope you will agree with me.  It is important for Daenerys Targaryen to learn this truth to avoid a repeat of what happened in this part of the world.  The Amethyst Empress was not an individual but a political faction and family branch.  The Red was also a political faction.  Much like the Tigers and the Elephants in the free cities today.  The blood betrayal caused a political and social divide.  The empire could no longer properly defend its borders because they were divided.  Daenerys assumed Asshai but Quaithe probably meant Yin.  Lightbringer's role is to restore and to rebuild after the end of the long night.  It is easier to accept Lightbringer being glass lanterns to light the world through the long night.  It may even be a weapon because it is sharp.  At least some enable communication.  I don't rule out that there is an actual sword called Lightbringer but an object with multiple uses, weapon, lantern, and telephone, is much more useful.  The Valyrians perhaps didn't know what it was and repurposed the glass objects into communication devices.  The phrase "to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow" mean the long night cannot be stopped nor avoided.  Daenerys will have to live through the darkness before she can again enjoy light and warmth.  Which is fitting because the last title will be A Dream of Spring.  Knowing this truth will help her prepare herself and her people to live through the long night and rebuild afterwards.  The last part is something the previous Azor Ahai was never able to do.

The apparitions of kings in Dany's vision were the male versions of Azor Ahai long ago.  The world goes through a cycle like the seasons.  Man and nature adapt to the cycle.  Humans build cities and increase their numbers.  The Long Night destroys what they built and reduce their numbers.  They rebuild and repopulate.  Azor Ahai, Dany in this case, always rebuilds after the end of the Long Night.  

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On 3/7/2021 at 4:18 PM, LynnS said:

I think Arya will be instrumental in bringing down the House of Black and White and putting an end to the Faceless Men.

Perhaps some foreshadowing:

In the end, I think the House of Black and White has to be destroyed.  I think that can only be done by an insider.  It may be that the Faceless Men eventually pursue Arya:

Yeah. The house of Black and White won't last; it's too extreme. But maybe it's a 'god' that needs to be killed.

On 3/7/2021 at 4:18 PM, LynnS said:

The maid is Arya, rather than Sansa, as a medusa figure.  The feast is the Weasel Soup incident at Harrenhall.  The savage giant may be a reference to the stone giant of Braavos and the Faceless Men.

I go along with this, but only because the ghost of HH looked at Arya.

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On 4/4/2020 at 10:47 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

It is my opinion that the death of Khal Drogo lit the candles.  Khal Drogo is Nissa Nissa. 

:agree:

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On 3/7/2021 at 4:16 AM, Bowen Marsh said:

Azor Ahai and her dragons will usher in the new dawn after the ice has receded.  The wights can be burned away as we saw in the Trident vision.  This army of ice will consists of wightified northern people led by a Stark.  So yes, it will be a fight between the fire of the dragons and their allies against the ice of the Starks and the White Walkers.

Like and agree.  :)

 

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On 4/4/2020 at 10:47 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

 

 

Dany outpaced the darkness in her dreams as well as within the Palace of Dust.  She will survive the long night and see the other side when Summer comes again. 

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On 4/5/2020 at 2:03 AM, Bowen Marsh said:

Azor Ahai is an Eastern legend.  This AA was a leader of  people during the long night.  He was never in the west.  Mellisandre will fail in her mission to sell him to the north of Westeros.  I saw a movie called At Play in the Fields of the Lord.  It is about protestant christian missionaries attempting to bring Jesus to an isolated tribe in the Amazon.  A wiser man is the Catholic priest who said "Christ will never be accepted here. A pale man from a desert country where it never rains".  Totally different setting from the rainforest.  The tribe could never understand.  Will never understand.  I think it's the same case with Mellisandre and the followers of the Old Gods.  AA comes from a far away land with different realities.  A handful of other heroes will use those candles in westeros if they are really swords.  It won't be AA.  AA will face her battles in the east and will not arrive in westeros until after the end of winter.  

There will be little resistance to religion later on.  The white walkers and their wights will reduce Westeros to tiny tribes and villages.  The survivors of the Ice Age will be few.  Each will have its own way of worshipping.  Daenerys may not even bring R'hllor to Westeros.  She uses religion as a tool.  She will do what she needs to accomplish the task of building an empire.  

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On 4/16/2021 at 8:30 PM, Rondo said:

There will be little resistance to religion later on.  The white walkers and their wights will reduce Westeros to tiny tribes and villages.  The survivors of the Ice Age will be few.  Each will have its own way of worshipping.  Daenerys may not even bring R'hllor to Westeros.  She uses religion as a tool.  She will do what she needs to accomplish the task of building an empire.  

Daenerys Targaryen and Bran Stark are the Sun and the Moon.  She is the sunlight and Bran is the dark of night.  Just as the Sun and the Moon do not occupy the same sky at the same time, Daenerys and Bran can't share space.  It's the age old Sun and Moon chasing each other across the sky.  Azor Ahai chased the darkness and it fled.  Daenerys will chase away Bran's darkness to return the light to Westeros.  

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