Daenerys is Azor Ahai Reborn

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 5/19/2020 at 4:25 AM, LynnS said:

I like this idea.  I think the other important sword is the Dawn sword. 

Dawn, even the name fits. 

[BlackLightning]

On 5/24/2020 at 10:21 PM, Son of Man said:

This could be the case b/c the world of ice and fire is low magic.  The comet arrives on its own schedule determined by the orbit.  It is on a long orbit around the planet.  The gravitational pull of the object wreaks havoc with the climate.   Belief drives prophecy b/c they lack an understanding of astronomy.

On 5/23/2020 at 8:16 PM, Bowen 747 said:

The comet arrives at the same time as the pole shift of the planet.  The red comet arrives at the same time the axis is about to tilt.  The comet does not have to be the cause as long as it is on the same schedule. 

George could say later on something different.  Like the comet's pull tilts the planet's axis. 

I agree. It's not just astronomy that they lack understanding of.

It's astrology too.

Astrology and astronomy are two sides of the same coin. The Dosh Khaleen study the stars and are able to preside over the khals because of their prediction and knowledge of current and future events. There's a good chance that when Dany hooks up with them, she'll slowly realize that the Long Night along with all magical activity are all results of extreme once-in-a-billion astronomical events. It's not even just the Dosh Khaleen. Archmaester Marwyn can offer lots of insight in that regard (maesters also seem to function as traditional astronomers as it is) but almost every single iteration of Quaithe has been tied to the stars and the planets. And then there is the matter of Shiera Seastar (I'm beginning to believe Quaithe is Shiera) whose name points in that direction.

It all makes sense.

The more educated people of Planetos are aware of the planets. In Westeros, Jupiter, Saturn, Mars, Venus and Mercury are all ascribed to the seven gods. Venus in particular is split between the Maiden and the Mother because the maester's mistakenly interpret Venus the Morning Star and Venus the Evening Star as two different planets instead of one planet (GRRM is telling us that science is just as vulnerable to gross misinterpretation as religion) that is just that visible. In any case, that only accounts for six of the seven gods. What about the seventh, the Stranger?

Methinks that the other comet you all are speaking of is actually the seventh "wanderer" that has such an erratic orbit that it actually passes through and interferes with the Earth's revolution around the Sun. Not only does it lend credence to the Dothraki story about how there were once two moons and one of them was much, much closer to Earth than the other, but the comet would actually have to be bigger or just as big as the planet Earth in order turn Earth into a frozen, sunless hellscape.

The interference of the Earth, the Sun and the Moon's gravitational relationship can also be attributed to the rise and fall of magic. And there is a lot to suggest that dragons, wyverns and the other monstrosities of Valyria and the Long Night (and maybe even the Valyrians and Others themselves) are aliens, extraterrestial creatures not native to Earth. Not only that but that Asshai and the Shadow Lands have a direct connection to the planet Stranger.

GRRM has made it a concentrated habit over the years to express his conviction that science fiction and fantasy are actually the same exact genre. He does that in almost all his other novels (for example, A Song for Lya) in many different ways and I think he's going for the big masterstroke with A Song of Ice and Fire. The work of HP Lovecraft (GRRM's idol) is rather fantastical but it blurs the lines between science fiction, fantasy and horror so much so that they became indistinguishable. No one has quite been able to follow Lovecraft's footsteps and do what he did so the things that Lovecraft did became its own genre. While sci-fi and horror became so popularly enmeshed that no one blinks an eye when they are fused (Alien, 28 Days Later) and sci-fi and fantasy have practically become one genre (Star Wars, Avatar), people seem to struggle with the concept of mixing horror and fantasy. It's something that no one wants to touch but when it works, it works and everyone is blown away (Pan's Labyrinth, Dracula, Coraline)

Not only is it rare to get a good fantasy/horror but no one has really seen fantasy/horror/sci-fi hybrid on a big level since Lovecraft.

Since GRRM originally wanted to create something unfilmable and is so deeply inspired by Pan's Labyrinth, I'm thinking that A Song of Ice and Fire is the lovechild of Tolkien's dungeons-and-dragons epics, Druon's medieval histories and Lovecraft's cautionary tales of reality-breaking cosmic horror.

It suddenly makes sense why Dany and only Dany was positioned and kept in the far east for so long. She is the one character who has the strongest ties to the Red Comet, other astronomical activity (everything done under the open sky...) and all the magica and prophecies that have their roots outside of Westeros.

If Dany learns the truth of the matter in The Winds of Winter or even A Dream of Spring, then it makes her fight against the establishment in Essos and Westeros that much more vital to the main thrust of the story.

Edited May 30, 2020 by BlackLightning

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Astrology and astronomy are two sides of the same coin. The Dosh Khaleen study the stars and are able to preside over the khals because of their prediction and knowledge of current and future events. There's a good chance that when Dany hooks up with them, she'll slowly realize that the Long Night along with all magical activity are all results of extreme once-in-a-billion astronomical events. It's not even just the Dosh Khaleen. Archmaester Marwyn can offer lots of insight in that regard (maesters also seem to function as traditional astronomers as it is) but almost every single iteration of Quaithe has been tied to the stars and the planets. And then there is the matter of Shiera Seastar (I'm beginning to believe Quaithe is Shiera) whose name points in that direction.

This is interesting.  I hadn't considered that the great red comet could be a planetesimal pushed out of orbit.  Or just an object that has the long periodic orbit of a comet.  An object that comes close enough  Planetos that it burns red (which is uncharacteristic of comets).  

It makes sense to me that something like this would make it into Dothraki legends and something that is reflected in their language: sun and stars, moon of my life.  Two moons in the sky, one that went too close to the sun and burned.

That does make me think of Quaithe, with eyes full of stars, who comes to Dany in her dreams, by other means.  This seems to be a different kind of magic that we have not yet seen, but very similar to glass candles.  Dany describes Quaithe's eyes as wet, so I wonder if this is a scrying method using water, something that would reflect the stars.

Searching the text for black water reveals this:
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

At the center of the grove an ancient weirwood brooded over a small pool where the waters were black and cold. "The heart tree,"

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

Catelyn found her husband beneath the weirwood, seated on a moss-covered stone. The greatsword Ice was across his lap, and he was cleaning the blade in those waters black as night.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

They rode to the lake the Dothraki called the Womb of the World, surrounded by a fringe of reeds, its water still and calm. A thousand thousand years ago, Jhiqui told her, the first man had emerged from its depths, riding upon the back of the first horse.

The procession waited on the grassy shore as Dany stripped and let her soiled clothing fall to the ground. Naked, she stepped gingerly into the water. Irri said the lake had no bottom, but Dany felt soft mud squishing between her toes as she pushed through the tall reeds. The moon floated on the still black waters,

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

 At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

 

The list goes on. 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire .

There could be something to Quaithe as Shiera Seastar, except that Dany only describes Quaithe's eyes as watery.  Shiera had mismatched eyes; one blue and one bright green.  I think she would notice,  if she was looking at her eyes.  We are not given any indication of Quaithe's hair color either, only that she is wearing a mask.  Dany would also notice silver/white hair.
 

Quote

In J. R. R. Tolkien's fictional universe of Middle-earth (especially in The Lord of the Rings), the Palantír is a stone that allows a viewer to see what any other Palantír sees, and the Mirror of Galadriel is used as a scrying device to see visions of the past, present, or future.

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by LynnS

[Shi Qiang]

Almost all of his work before this one was science fiction.  The thousand-worlds stories in particular.  Why should this one be any different.  

Were his thousand-worlds stories commercially successful?

[Shi Qiang]

On 5/28/2020 at 4:30 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Dawn, even the name fits. 

The color as well.  Milky white.  

[Kierria]

Dany's future purpose is to start the new Great Empire of the Dawn after the Long Night.  It has to happen because humans will start over.  She is the mother figure who will begin this project.  I just don't know if we will actually get to read about it.  George R. R. Martin may leave that part untold.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

A new civilization will rise as the snows melt away.  It will be another dawn civilization.  It might start out as a keep and grow into a city.  And I have a hunch it will start in the west this time.  Daenerys will choose to go back home and leave Essos.  Essos will fall to the creatures of the dark.  So the Sun will rise in the west and set in the east.  

[BlackLightning]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is interesting.  I hadn't considered that the great red comet could be a planetesimal pushed out of orbit.  Or just an object that has the long periodic orbit of a comet.  An object that comes close enough  Planetos that it burns red (which is uncharacteristic of comets).  

It makes sense to me that something like this would make it into Dothraki legends and something that is reflected in their language: sun and stars, moon of my life.  Two moons in the sky, one that went too close to the sun and burned.

That does make me think of Quaithe, with eyes full of stars, who comes to Dany in her dreams, by other means.  This seems to be a different kind of magic that we have not yet seen, but very similar to glass candles.  Dany describes Quaithe's eyes as wet, so I wonder if this is a scrying method using water, something that would reflect the stars.

Searching the text for black water reveals this:
 

The list goes on. 

There could be something to Quaithe as Shiera Seastar, except that Dany only describes Quaithe's eyes as watery.  Shiera had mismatched eyes; one blue and one bright green.  I think she would notice,  if she was looking at her eyes.  We are not given any indication of Quaithe's hair color either, only that she is wearing a mask.  Dany would also notice silver/white hair.
 

 

Great points about how astronomy impacts Bran and Dany's (especially Dany's) stories.

But it's not even about the Red Comet.

What I am saying is that the Long Night may actually be caused by another planet that essentially does what the Moon does during a solar eclipse. Except that you have a whole ass planet that may or may not be bigger than Earth passing in front of the Sun. If it's a planet, it's likely bigger than the Moon and may even 

Although astronomy talks about it, astrology makes an even bigger deal out of conjunctions. A conjunction is when two planets align and converge in a particular constellation (aka zodiac sign) for a specific period of time.

Early this year, Jupiter, Saturn, Pluto and Mars were all conjunct in Aquarius (that's why so many people were foretelling doom and chaos and misfortune, and that is exactly what we got). Pluto has a really bizarre elliptical orbit. In fact, Pluto's orbit is so bizarre that it is a regular occurrence for Neptune to be the planet furthest away from the Sun. Not Pluto.

Imagine if we had a planet the size of Venus (or worse, one of the gas giants) with an Plutonian orbit passes in between Earth and the Sun. Imagine if this planet was so slow-moving that it ran conjunct with Earth for 10 years. The Sun would not be eclipsed, it would be hidden.

Talk about an environmental catastrophe. A nuclear winter without the nuclear weapons.

And let's say that it is very close to Earth. While we're at it, let's say there are creatures or objects native to that planet who start appearing on Earth.

The sword of House Dayne, Dawn, is a special sword. It is said to be forged out of some meteorite. It doesn't resemble any other Vayrian steel sword. As a matter of fact, what it more closely resembles are the weapons of the Others.

And then there is the matter of that weird oily black stone substance that no one can identify or explain. It's been found in Moat Cailin, Pyke, Oldtown, Asshai, Yi Ti and the Basilisk Isles and it may even be somewhat related to the stone used by the Valyrians to create the Valyrian roads, Dragonstone and the Black Wall of Volantis.

13 hours ago, Allardyce said:

Almost all of his work before this one was science fiction.  The thousand-worlds stories in particular.  Why should this one be any different.  

You're right.

It shouldn't be.

I think we're about to see what happens when magic is actually extraterrestrial science and that the gods humans talk about turn out to be aliens.

13 hours ago, Allardyce said:

Were his thousand-worlds stories commercially successful?

Some of them were. But nowhere near as successful as A Song of Ice and Fire.

7 hours ago, Kierra said:

Dany's future purpose is to start the new Great Empire of the Dawn after the Long Night.  It has to happen because humans will start over.  She is the mother figure who will begin this project.  I just don't know if we will actually get to read about it.  George R. R. Martin may leave that part untold.

6 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

A new civilization will rise as the snows melt away.  It will be another dawn civilization.  It might start out as a keep and grow into a city.  And I have a hunch it will start in the west this time.  Daenerys will choose to go back home and leave Essos.  Essos will fall to the creatures of the dark.  So the Sun will rise in the west and set in the east.  

Well, then if this is Dany's purpose, then Dany going to Westeros (or Pentos, for that matter) is the exact opposite of what she should have been doing.

Granted, if this is Dany's true destiny, then while Dany was right to not go back to Pentos and to abolish slavery, she got off track trying to rule and appease Meereen. Dany has much more important business to attend to in Asshai and Yi Ti and she needs to hurry up and go. This excursion back to Vaes Dothrak may not only get her the super-khalasar she's lowkey always wanted but it may be an opportunity for her to learn what is really going on and how she can get back on the right track.

But it makes you wonder though.

If Dany is to be the slayer of lies and Stannis, Aegon/Varys and that stone monstrosity breathing shadow fire are the lies, then that may mean that Stannis and Aegon present truly an existential threat to all humanity.

Dany saw four dwarves ravaging a woman that is understood to be Westeros. How do we know that the woman is acutally a symbol for the world not Westeros and the four dwarves are not Westerosi kings fighting for power?

And am I the only one who finds it intriguing that Dany saw that they were dwarves and not regular men? Interesting. What were Dany's visions trying to tell her about dwarves...or were they trying to tell her about one dwarf in particular.

 

[Anck Su Namun]

We normally think of small string puppets being moved by humans.  Perhaps it is the small rat people moving humans around.  Mind control is used instead of strings. 

[LynnS]

44 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

What I am saying is that the Long Night may actually be caused by another planet that essentially does what the Moon does during a solar eclipse. Except that you have a whole ass planet that may or may not be bigger than Earth passing in front of the Sun. If it's a planet, it's likely bigger than the Moon and may even 

Although astronomy talks about it, astrology makes an even bigger deal out of conjunctions. A conjunction is when two planets align and converge in a particular constellation (aka zodiac sign) for a specific period of time.

I am familiar with astrology and making of natal charts.  A conjunction is the strongest aspect in relation to trines, squares and oppositions, leaving out the minor aspects.  Transitions and horoscopes are another thing.  You are talking about an unknown planet transiting the sun to form a conjunction in a particular sign and a particular house.

I don't think there is an equivalent to astrology in aSoIaF.  There is certainly a study of the stars (constellations) and 'planetary' wanderers.  An interest in celestial events like comets as messengers and heralds.

What you  describe as an unknown planet with an eccentric orbit like Pluto fits the bill for the great red 'comet'.  

It's more likely the long night is caused by magic which interferes with the normal seasons.  We've been told as much by GRRM. 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by LynnS

[LynnS]

42 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The sword of House Dayne, Dawn, is a special sword. It is said to be forged out of some meteorite. It doesn't resemble any other Vayrian steel sword. As a matter of fact, what it more closely resembles are the weapons of the Others.

Yes, forged from a meteorite with magic possibly even the pre-curser to valyrian steel swords of another metal.  It's lore seems to be lost.

42 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

And then there is the matter of that weird oily black stone substance that no one can identify or explain. It's been found in Moat Cailin, Pyke, Oldtown, Asshai, Yi Ti and the Basilisk Isles and it may even be somewhat related to the stone used by the Valyrians to create the Valyrian roads, Dragonstone and the Black Wall of Volantis

Sounds a lot like bitumen or asphalt, something that Planetos could produce on it's own.   Possibly used to make the stone roads of Valyria, the fourth wonder of the world. 

Edited May 31, 2020 by LynnS

[BlackLightning]

9 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said:

We normally think of small string puppets being moved by humans.  Perhaps it is the small rat people moving humans around.  Mind control is used instead of strings. 

Good point.

Maybe it is the gods who are playing games of thrones with the humans.

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I am familiar with astrology and making of natal charts.  A conjunction is the strongest aspect in relation to trines, squares and oppositions, leaving out the minor aspects.  Transitions and horoscopes are another thing.  You are talking about an unknown planet transiting the sun to form a conjunction in a particular sign and a particular house.

I don't think there is an equivalent to astrology in aSoIaF.  There is certainly a study of the stars (constellations) and 'planetary' wanderers.  An interest in celestial events like comets as messengers and heralds.

What you  describe as an unknown planet with an eccentric orbit like Pluto fits the bill for the great red 'comet'.  

It's more likely the long night is caused by magic which interferes with the normal seasons.  We've been told as much by GRRM. 

True.

But the point that what I'm getting at is that GRRM is blurring the lines between science fiction and high fantasy. A lot of what people used to call magic in real life is actually widely known or explained as science today. A lot of the technology we have can and has interfered with the normal seasons. It should also be noted that GRRM particularly loves the space opera sub and his most famous novels outside A Song of Ice and Fire are space operas.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

But the point that what I'm getting at is that GRRM is blurring the lines between science fiction and high fantasy. A lot of what people used to call magic in real life is actually widely known or explained as science today. A lot of the technology we have can and has interfered with the normal seasons. It should also be noted that GRRM particularly loves the space opera sub and his most famous novels outside A Song of Ice and Fire are space operas.

You could consider that Martin is using magic as a form of technology.  The Wall may be a form of magic technology that interferes with the seasons.  It's 400 miles long and 700 feet high in places.  It's an unnatural barrier that wouldn't normally stand up under it's own weight. . 

[BlackLightning]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

You could consider that Martin is using magic as a form of technology.  The Wall may be a form of magic technology that interferes with the seasons.  It's 400 miles long and 700 feet high in places.  It's an unnatural barrier that wouldn't normally stand up under it's own weight. . 

Exactly.

Is it really that hard of a stretch to consider that the Long Night might be a purely astronomical event and the Others are essentially aliens.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Exactly.

Is it really that hard of a stretch to consider that the Long Night might be a purely astronomical event and the Others are essentially aliens.

Well, when the planetary body shows up, I'll consider it.  For now, I'll come to the long night by other means. 

The Others might be very alien in some respects. A form of life that is very different from the humans in the story. 

[Darth Sidious]

I am not too sure about an object to call in the winter.  Cold and dark are the absence of heat and light.  In other words, the absence of those elements needed for life.  The warmth and the light must constantly fight to overcome the cold and the darkness.  Dark is the default state of the universe.  It takes energy and work to have light.

Humans are like bugs.  Hard to exterminate.  Humans will survive and will rebuild.  So obviously the first city will be later known as an empire of the dawn.  And it very well could start in Westeros.  Basically it will be the cradle of the civilization again.

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 5/9/2020 at 2:42 AM, Loose Bolt said:

But as a female Dany lacks necessary legitimacy. Or Westerosi do not accept female rulers. So if she somehow gains Iron Throne her rule would be challenged by rebellions, assassinations and passive resistance by nobility.

Laws can be changed.  Should be changed in this case.  That silly custom will have been done away with by the time Cersei, Marge, and Arrianne have had their way in King's Landing.  It should no longer be an issue upon her arrival.

 

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 5/31/2020 at 1:44 PM, BlackLightning said:

Exactly.

Is it really that hard of a stretch to consider that the Long Night might be a purely astronomical event and the Others are essentially aliens.

Good theory.  Though I am thinking the comet and the planet are on a non-circular orbit around their sun.  

Edited June 2, 2020 by 300 H&H Magnum

[Son of Man]

On 5/30/2020 at 1:37 PM, Allardyce said:

Almost all of his work before this one was science fiction.  The thousand-worlds stories in particular.  Why should this one be any different.  

Were his thousand-worlds stories commercially successful?

Probably not.  It could why he chose to write a medieval fantasy instead of science fiction.  But you can't take the science out of a writer who has been doing it for the better part of 30 years.  The weather pattern is surely affected by science.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Son of Man

[Kierria]

On 5/31/2020 at 2:59 AM, BlackLightning said:

Great points about how astronomy impacts Bran and Dany's (especially Dany's) stories.

But it's not even about the Red Comet.

What I am saying is that the Long Night may actually be caused by another planet that essentially does what the Moon does during a solar eclipse. Except that you have a whole ass planet that may or may not be bigger than Earth passing in front of the Sun. If it's a planet, it's likely bigger than the Moon and may even 

Although astronomy talks about it, astrology makes an even bigger deal out of conjunctions. A conjunction is when two planets align and converge in a particular constellation (aka zodiac sign) for a specific period of time.

Early this year, Jupiter, Saturn, Pluto and Mars were all conjunct in Aquarius (that's why so many people were foretelling doom and chaos and misfortune, and that is exactly what we got). Pluto has a really bizarre elliptical orbit. In fact, Pluto's orbit is so bizarre that it is a regular occurrence for Neptune to be the planet furthest away from the Sun. Not Pluto.

Imagine if we had a planet the size of Venus (or worse, one of the gas giants) with an Plutonian orbit passes in between Earth and the Sun. Imagine if this planet was so slow-moving that it ran conjunct with Earth for 10 years. The Sun would not be eclipsed, it would be hidden.

Talk about an environmental catastrophe. A nuclear winter without the nuclear weapons.

And let's say that it is very close to Earth. While we're at it, let's say there are creatures or objects native to that planet who start appearing on Earth.

The sword of House Dayne, Dawn, is a special sword. It is said to be forged out of some meteorite. It doesn't resemble any other Vayrian steel sword. As a matter of fact, what it more closely resembles are the weapons of the Others.

And then there is the matter of that weird oily black stone substance that no one can identify or explain. It's been found in Moat Cailin, Pyke, Oldtown, Asshai, Yi Ti and the Basilisk Isles and it may even be somewhat related to the stone used by the Valyrians to create the Valyrian roads, Dragonstone and the Black Wall of Volantis.

You're right.

It shouldn't be.

I think we're about to see what happens when magic is actually extraterrestrial science and that the gods humans talk about turn out to be aliens.

Some of them were. But nowhere near as successful as A Song of Ice and Fire.

Well, then if this is Dany's purpose, then Dany going to Westeros (or Pentos, for that matter) is the exact opposite of what she should have been doing.

Granted, if this is Dany's true destiny, then while Dany was right to not go back to Pentos and to abolish slavery, she got off track trying to rule and appease Meereen. Dany has much more important business to attend to in Asshai and Yi Ti and she needs to hurry up and go. This excursion back to Vaes Dothrak may not only get her the super-khalasar she's lowkey always wanted but it may be an opportunity for her to learn what is really going on and how she can get back on the right track.

But it makes you wonder though.

If Dany is to be the slayer of lies and Stannis, Aegon/Varys and that stone monstrosity breathing shadow fire are the lies, then that may mean that Stannis and Aegon present truly an existential threat to all humanity.

Dany saw four dwarves ravaging a woman that is understood to be Westeros. How do we know that the woman is acutally a symbol for the world not Westeros and the four dwarves are not Westerosi kings fighting for power?

And am I the only one who finds it intriguing that Dany saw that they were dwarves and not regular men? Interesting. What were Dany's visions trying to tell her about dwarves...or were they trying to tell her about one dwarf in particular.

 

The new civilization does not have to happen in Essos.  It can happen in Westeros.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Kierra