Marrying for Love in Westeros?

[Loose Bolt]

I suspect that if members of the Watch would have had right to marry then instead of 1 institution there would have been many petty houses each ruling part of the Gift. Or VIPs like senior officers would have left their "property" to their children and so united brotherhood of Gulag would have became many potentially hostile mini states.

[Tyrion1991]

17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, Jon’s got a lot of competition for worst character in the entire series. Joffrey “Baratheon” and Ramsay Bolton for starters. At least Jon doesn’t try to force a girl to have sex with dogs.

Also, there’s a number of characters who volunteered for the Night’s Watch; Lord Commander Jeor Mormont himself abdicated his title of Lord of Bear Island to his son Jorah, Maester Aemon joined the Night’s Watch to prevent himself from being a tool to use against his brother Aegon V, Benjen Stark joined near the end or almost immediately after Robert’s Rebellion ended (and Ned allowed him despite House Stark’s fate being on tenterhooks), and Waymar Royce joined the Night’s Watch of his own free will because he wasn’t going to gain anything as a third son. 

 

Aemon could have joined a monastery or left the country. Going to a gulag is odd. I don’t get how sold everyone is on the tin pot romanticism. This is not a heroic or grand institution. 

I was more aiming at Jon being a bad character with a bad story. He doesn’t necessarily do anything evil and I am not sold by people insisting he’s going to have a “dark turn”. 

It’s extremely contrived that he blindly volunteers to join an organisation which he can’t easily opt out of. This is not a young idealist, that is just an idiot.

He is an entitled and over privileged jock who thinks he’s been wronged his entire life. This makes him a whiny little freak. That is difficult to take seriously when other characters are facing real problems. He is not remotely an outcast and his self pity is obnoxious.

Giving him the bookish nerd friend to protect is excessive and on the nose. Why would he be friends with Sam exactly except to score brownie points with the reader?

George insincerely depicts this as a character arc in book 1. Which is neatly resolved when he has a fireside chat with Tyrion and then he’s suddenly the man of the people. He did not go through any real conflict or internal struggle. He was not in any actual danger.

He does a hack job repackaging scenes from Full Metal Jacket. Which has never been done before...

He basically does nothing for several books as the whole story is in a holding pattern since George can’t have the Others enter the story until the final act.

You know he’s a royal bastard within the first few scenes of Rob B interacting with Ned. 

It’s cringe worthy when in ADWD George starts floating the entire that “oh, wow the Watch might not be fit for purpose and need to change”. So he’s basically made this idiotic and broken institution to give his idiot character to knock heads against.  

Hes an idiot for betraying the Wildlings trust in him. That they continue to respect and like him after thousands of their people have died because of him makes no sense. They should want him dead.

Realising the character hadn’t done anything to suggest he would amount to anything George suddenly has him advising an ignorant Stannis on how to conquer the North.

It’s a contrived to have a scenario where he is given an excuse to kill all the people who disagree with him in the Nights Watch. 

He undermines the weight of his decision to side with the Watch when he’s given chances to flip flop back to helping them anyway. 

Giving your character plot armour where he can come back from the dead without serious repercussions. With a convenient excuse to walk away from vows. Such as, you know, being a corpse that’s been hacked to pieces. None of them went for the face or tried to mutilate him. Really?

Every single character he meets is impressed by him despite having no legitimate reason to. He hasn’t won any battles. He hasn’t bested anyone of note in combat where his Direwolf didn’t help him. He isn’t particularly intelligent beyond other characters saying they’re impressed by him stating the obvious like Benjin. Beyond being Neds bastard there’s nothing of note about him. People talk about him like he’s Rand from Wheel of Time and he’s done nothing in five books worthy of note.

George uses him to advocate that love is the death of duty and will lead you to ruin. That is an absurd notion and no he is not just telling a tragedy. He is very much advocating this point with Jon Snow. I can’t tell you why. It’s a bizarre thing to go on about and entirely due to these contrived situations he creates. But he wants to batter the reader over the head with this point; especially in Jons story. I don’t think this is a nuanced theme within the books. 

I was incredibly bored by his chapters and they cheapen the series as a whole. I would never have picked up this series or watched the show if he was the only character. I cannot relate to the character or anyone who likes him. 

 

[Vaith]

I imagine that maybe some personal preference is allowed, within one's own social sphere. E.g. Oakheart daughter goes to court, meets Rowan heir and Tarly heir. Both are her social equals, so if she writes to her father and expresses a personal preference to the Tarly, that might be taken into account. But falling in love with a Smallwood second son might be a no, let alone a commoner.

This sort of deal might happen in more peaceful times. Our main characters have usually been forced to marry by circumstance, such as Robert's Rebellion or the War of Five Kings. In a more normal time, things may be different.

We see a few love marriages like Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was choosing Corlys Velaryon. And there's even a more out-there marriage in the main series, such as Doran and Mellario.

[Angel Eyes]

On 4/12/2020 at 1:54 PM, Vaith said:

I imagine that maybe some personal preference is allowed, within one's own social sphere. E.g. Oakheart daughter goes to court, meets Rowan heir and Tarly heir. Both are her social equals, so if she writes to her father and expresses a personal preference to the Tarly, that might be taken into account. But falling in love with a Smallwood second son might be a no, let alone a commoner.

This sort of deal might happen in more peaceful times. Our main characters have usually been forced to marry by circumstance, such as Robert's Rebellion or the War of Five Kings. In a more normal time, things may be different.

We see a few love marriages like Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was choosing Corlys Velaryon. And there's even a more out-there marriage in the main series, such as Doran and Mellario.

Except that Rickard Stark made his matches of Brandon to Catelyn Tully and Lyanna to Robert Baratheon during peacetime and little thought for compatibility. Lyanna doesn't seem like a suitable bride for Robert Baratheon; given his philandering behavior, marital rape tendencies, and Lyanna's wilful personality, we saw the results of that with Cersei Lannister's marriage with Robert Baratheon. How long would it have taken for Lyanna to snap and put a few holes in Robert?