Alyn Oakenfist Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 So in the prologue to ACOK, why is Stannis so rude towards Cressen? Sure he never learned anything about diplomacy, but at several points he goes beyond lack of diplomacy up to full blown mockery and disrespectfulness. Now Stannis has a lot of flaws, but not appreciating loyalty isn't one of them, so how come that in that chapter he's more toxic towards Cressen then towards his wife? (it doesn't help that in that chapter Stannis is at his most entitled in the whole series) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 Stannis is a dick, the sooner you interiorize that the less questions you'll have. I wonderhow good of a jpb Cressen did, the three bros are dicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltharion21 Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 My opinion along with others who theorized it also. To make him leave since Melisandre told him Cresen would try to kill her and die in attempt. First thing she learned to see in fires are threats to her own life and she needs to get Stannis trust, by correct visions of future, so he would give her sacrifices of King's blood. Not saying Stannis isn't generally a dick to people or he cares as much Cressen does to him , but he isn't cruel as to make him wear Patchface's antlered bucket , it was attempt to prevent his death, same as replacing him by younger maester, not calling for his advice and sort of retiring him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 Stannis behaved towards Cressen in same way he behaves toward everyone. Selyse said Cressen to wear patchface cap and Stannis said that his queen gave him order which is true, but thats only sign of disrespectfulness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted April 8, 2020 Author Share Posted April 8, 2020 1 hour ago, frenin said: Stannis is a dick, the sooner you interiorize that the less questions you'll have. I wonderhow good of a jpb Cressen did, the three bros are dicks. Except we never see him try to humiliate anybody else in the story. Sure he is a dick on occasion, but his behavior in the prologue of ACOK is something else entirely. 59 minutes ago, Putin said: Stannis behaved towards Cressen in same way he behaves toward everyone. Selyse said Cressen to wear patchface cap and Stannis said that his queen gave him order which is true, but thats only sign of disrespectfulness. Please point out a single other moment when Stannis tries to humiliate anybody, especially someone who has been with him for so long. 1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said: To make him leave since Melisandre told him Cresen would try to kill her and die in attempt. First thing she learned to see in fires are threats to her own life and she needs to get Stannis trust, by correct visions of future, so he would give her sacrifices of King's blood. Not saying Stannis isn't generally a dick to people or he cares as much Cressen does to him , but he isn't cruel as to make him wear Patchface's antlered bucket , it was attempt to prevent his death, same as replacing him by younger maester, not calling for his advice and sort of retiring him. That's actually a good explanation, especially seeing as Stannis wanted to test Mel and couldn't say outright to Cressen don't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 Stannis has never learned how to love, I think. He didn't understand how much Cressen cared about him and that the old maester saw him as a son. Stannis is someone who is bitter, I think the only person he trusts 100% is Davos, I don't believe he is even like that with Melisandre, since we can see he is not really a believer of the Lord of Light. Deep down, I think he sees everybody around him, but Davos, as flatterers and to be honest, a lot of them are flatterers, they all have an angle. Well, some of them just turned fanatic for the Lord of Light. Stannis is not only mean to Cressen, he is mean to a lot of people, he has flaws just like all other characters, I never understood why there are fans who think he is perfect, that he is flawless, because he is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted April 8, 2020 Author Share Posted April 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said: Deep down, I think he sees everybody around him, but Davos, as flatterers and to be honest, a lot of them are flatterers, they all have an angle. Well, some of them just turned fanatic for the Lord of Light. I mostly agree, but I can't see how he could view Cressen as a flatterer. 5 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said: I never understood why there are fans who think he is perfect, that he is flawless, because he is not. Are there such fans? For example I like Stannis a lot not because he is flawless, but because he has flaws, but is the only king to grow out of them (albeit hella slowly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 Cressen is no flatterer, but I think at that point, he thought Cressen was probably upset about Pylos and was trying to keep his position. Stannis also dislikes the fact Cressen didn't want Melisandre around, not that Stannis is a believer of that religion, but he sees Melisandre as an important asset to get the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 The answer is in the book. "My liege, Pylos is pleasant enough, but I cannot see the chain about his neck without mourning for Maester Cressen." "Is it his fault the old man died?" Stannis glanced into the fire. "I never wanted Cressen at that feast. He'd angered my, yes, he'd given me bad counsel, but I did not want him dead. I'd hoped he might be granted a few years of ease and comfort. He had earned that much, at least, but" -- he ground his teeth together -- "but he died. And Pylos serves me ably." (Davos I, ACoK 10) Stannis felt Cressen did not give him good advice. We're talking about Stannis joining forces with Robb, and his reaction at kinslaying. It's not what Stannis wanted to hear, so he behaved like Stannis behaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 The answer is easy. Stannis himself is a dick. He is a bad person with a few good traits, not the other way around. But the real question should not be why he was a dick to Cressen but why he let Mel get away with what she did. She could have saved Cressen, couldn't she? She could have taken the glass from him so he would not drink the poison, no? Stannis must have learned that all after the fact. A man caring about justice and a man caring about a man who was a second father to him should have reacted differently. Stannis shows his true colors early on in ACoK. He is willing to do anything what it takes to get what he wants. Even crossing lines a sane person shouldn't cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted April 8, 2020 Author Share Posted April 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: I never wanted Cressen at that feast. He'd angered my, yes, he'd given me bad counsel I don't think he's saying that the motley bs was because he had angered him, but rather that he didn't want him at the feast due to the bad council. Also the: 1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: but I did not want him dead. I'd hoped he might be granted a few years of ease and comfort. He had earned that much, at least, but Seems to indicate that he did not want him at the feast in order to protect him. All in all I tend to agree with @Eltharion21 on this one. 42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Stannis himself is a dick. He is a bad person with a few good traits, not the other way around. Which Stannis, may I ask? Stannis at the beginning of ACOK or Stannis at the beginning of TWOW. Cause they are almost different characters by this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Which Stannis, may I ask? Stannis at the beginning of ACOK or Stannis at the beginning of TWOW. Cause they are almost different characters by this point. Not really. Stannis' take on 'saving Westeros' is an instrumental one. He wants to become king by saving the people. It is great to save the people, of course, but it is still a means to an end for him, not the other way around. He still has the same issues with women, he still has his inferiority complex and issues with Robert, etc. I recall that I was pretty annoyed that pretty much every character who just met Stannis talks about how he cannot stand women, etc. George is either not writing him very well there or he is supposed to be a walking cliché with terrible social skills and that shows immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted April 8, 2020 Author Share Posted April 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Not really. Stannis' take on 'saving Westeros' is an instrumental one. He wants to become king by saving the people. It is great to save the people, of course, but it is still a means to an end for him, not the other way around. I beg to differ. By now Stannis has saving the realm and getting the Iron Throne as equal goals, one no longer subservient to the other. I think that after he takes Winterfell he will be beset with his most difficult dilemma yet. March North or South. Till that point his goals for saving the realm and gaining the Throne led to the same place, Winterfell, but after that things become a lot less clear. I think in the end Stannis's ark will be complete with him choosing to lead his forces back to the Nightfort in order the fight the Others. 7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: He still has the same issues with women That's not really a flaw though, isn't it. It more of a quirk. 8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: George is either not writing him very well there or he is supposed to be a walking cliché with terrible social skills and that shows immediately Of course he has limited social skills. But even there he is making the effort. His managing of 3 different (fairly belligerent) religions on the march to Winterfell shows as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I beg to differ. By now Stannis has saving the realm and getting the Iron Throne as equal goals, one no longer subservient to the other. I think that after he takes Winterfell he will be beset with his most difficult dilemma yet. March North or South. Till that point his goals for saving the realm and gaining the Throne led to the same place, Winterfell, but after that things become a lot less clear. I think in the end Stannis's ark will be complete with him choosing to lead his forces back to the Nightfort in order the fight the Others. Stannis intends to sit the Iron Throne at the end. That's why he started the whole thing. It is commendable that he realized that to be able to do that means there has to be a people and a throne, but all things considered one doesn't really need a genius to conclude that. And I don't think there is any indication that Stannis wants to conquer the rest of Westeros until after he has dealt with the Others. He only marches against the Boltons because they are an immediate threat to him. There is not the slightest indication that he wants to start another campaign with the few men he has. And the sellswords he wants to recruit are supposed to join him at the Wall, also indicating it is the Others first and the Iron Throne second. The idea that this could ever be a dilemma is very hard to buy, considering the Northmen got their asses kicked the last time they marched down south with a Stark - and they lost many men at the Twins. They would not want to repeat that while their lands are threatened by a supernatural foe - assuming Stannis ever bothers to tell them about the danger they are in (which he curiously never does). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted April 8, 2020 Author Share Posted April 8, 2020 36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Stannis intends to sit the Iron Throne at the end. Yeah, well he is the rightful king. However that is becoming less and less of a priority to him. 36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: That's why he started the whole thing. It is commendable that he realized that to be able to do that means there has to be a people and a throne, but all things considered one doesn't really need a genius to conclude that. Try telling that to literally every other king in Westeros. Drag Stannis's name through the mud all you like, he was the only king to come to the NW's defence. You might say he did that to gain legitimacy, but hell Tommen or Joffrey, or even Robb Stark might have done the same, also for legitimacy, but they didn't give a damn. 36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: And I don't think there is any indication that Stannis wants to conquer the rest of Westeros until after he has dealt with the Others. He only marches against the Boltons because they are an immediate threat to him. There is not the slightest indication that he wants to start another campaign with the few men he has. And the sellswords he wants to recruit are supposed to join him at the Wall, also indicating it is the Others first and the Iron Throne second. Exactly. He is putting the realm before the Throne. Stannis in my opinion will be the greatest of the kings by giving up his crown in order to save the kingdom, kinda similar to what Torrhen Stark did. 36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The idea that this could ever be a dilemma is very hard to buy, considering the Northmen got their asses kicked the last time they marched down south with a Stark - and they lost many men at the Twins. They would not want to repeat that while their lands are threatened by a supernatural foe - assuming Stannis ever bothers to tell them about the danger they are in (which he curiously never does). Stannis could easily march south right now. After the battle of Winterfell he should have a lot of men, and with the Riverlands still not completely dry of manpower, he might actually stand an actual chance, especially given the mess core Westeros is in right now. However he will not. He is no longer so prideful or ambitious that he forgets his duties or his brains. All in all that's why I like Stannis most out of all the kings (maybe except FAegon, we'll see how he turns out) he is the only king capable of acknowledging his flaws and mistakes and evolving from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Yeah, well he is the rightful king. However that is becoming less and less of a priority to him. He has no proof for his claims - which makes him a bloody usurper. 7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Try telling that to literally every other king in Westeros. Drag Stannis's name through the mud all you like, he was the only king to come to the NW's defence. You might say he did that to gain legitimacy, but hell Tommen or Joffrey, or even Robb Stark might have done the same, also for legitimacy, but they didn't give a damn. I daresay that Joff and Tommen being children are completely blameless here. Robb is a different case, though. 7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Exactly. He is putting the realm before the Throne. Stannis in my opinion will be the greatest of the kings by giving up his crown in order to save the kingdom, kinda similar to what Torrhen Stark did. I don't think he is ever going to do that, but who knows? 7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Stannis could easily march south right now. After the battle of Winterfell he should have a lot of men, and with the Riverlands still not completely dry of manpower, he might actually stand an actual chance, especially given the mess core Westeros is in right now. However he will not. He is no longer so prideful or ambitious that he forgets his duties or his brains. All in all that's why I like Stannis most out of all the kings (maybe except FAegon, we'll see how he turns out) he is the only king capable of acknowledging his flaws and mistakes and evolving from them. If you imagine he doesn't have many losses, perhaps, but that isn't a given. And he cannot just assume the Riverlanders will join - and even if they did, the Reach, he still cannot hope to defeat the Lannisters and Tyrells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 38 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Exactly. He is putting the realm before the Throne. Stannis in my opinion will be the greatest of the kings by giving up his crown in order to save the kingdom, kinda similar to what Torrhen Stark did. Given that he is never going to be king but has a chance to bleed Westeros some more if he marches south, him staying in the north, actually renouncing to his house's rights, would be by far the best outcome to him and the only to te redeem him after all he has done and what he is going to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aebram Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 Getting back to the original question ... First Mel put the fool's helm on Cressen. Then he took it off, but Selyse commanded him to wear it. Stannis didn't take an active role in ridiculing Cressen; he just tolerated the actions of his wife/queen and his mistress/sorceress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 6 hours ago, frenin said: I wonderhow good of a jpb Cressen did, the three bros are dicks. Savage. It's weird that none of the three talks much about him... maybe Cressen was just as self centered as the brothers... seems to be the only thing they have in common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted April 8, 2020 Author Share Posted April 8, 2020 54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: 1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Yeah, well he is the rightful king. However that is becoming less and less of a priority to him. He has no proof for his claims - which makes him a bloody usurper. Aye he has no proof, but that doesn't make him an usurper. There is enough circumstantial evidence to convince any sane man, however. As for being an usurper, he is the rightful king, he just can't prove it. 57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Quote Exactly. He is putting the realm before the Throne. Stannis in my opinion will be the greatest of the kings by giving up his crown in order to save the kingdom, kinda similar to what Torrhen Stark did. I don't think he is ever going to do that, but who knows? 38 minutes ago, frenin said: 1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Exactly. He is putting the realm before the Throne. Stannis in my opinion will be the greatest of the kings by giving up his crown in order to save the kingdom, kinda similar to what Torrhen Stark did. Given that he is never going to be king but has a chance to bleed Westeros some more if he marches south, him staying in the north, actually renouncing to his house's rights, would be by far the best outcome to him and the only to te redeem him after all he has done and what he is going to do. Allow me to rephrase. He will be the greatest of the countless kings that plague the Land, due to the fact that he will abandon any chance to become king in order to save his realm, kinda like Torrhen. 59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: If you imagine he doesn't have many losses, perhaps, but that isn't a given. And he cannot just assume the Riverlanders will join - and even if they did, the Reach, he still cannot hope to defeat the Lannisters and Tyrells. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying his chances aren't minor to none, I'm saying he could take them. Early Stannis would probably have taken those odds, therefore pointlessly killing even more men. 41 minutes ago, frenin said: after all he has done and what he is going to do. What has he done actually? Sure he did some nasty shit, but he is very tame when compared to every other King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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