Tywin Manderly Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 Please continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 @DanteGabriel Continuing from the last thread: To be fair to Biden, he did release a statement aimed at Sanders supporters. Quote And to your supporters I make the same commitment: I see you, I hear you, and I understand the urgency of what it is we have to get done in this country. I hope you will join us. You are more than welcome. You’re needed. It's a nice, feel-good statement. I'm sure he's sincere about it. And I desperately hope he realizes just how small of a beginning this is. It's entirely possible that Biden's team makes the calculation that maintaining a moderate course is more important to his chances in the general than tacking to the left, banking on disaffection with Trump and the circumstances of a bad economy/global pandemic to shore up support on their left flank. I can't necessarily say that's a bad calculation given everything that is going on. But the U.S. is currently in the middle of mortgaging all of our futures so we can hopefully weather this crisis. I'm only hoping that we're buying something more than just the status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrist Simon Steele Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 @DanteGabriel "So you weren't aware of this speech and you weren't aware of things Biden was doing to stay visible in the early days of the Covid crisis. Why is this information not getting to you? I share your concerns that Biden and the Democratic establishment are too inflexible or up their own asses to properly reach out to Bernie supporters. But it doesn't seem like they're listening, or open to being swayed." I was not aware at all. I've seen so little of Biden, and I have quite a few news sources I peruse daily. I guess it's just possible that the Corona news is drowning everything else out. I didn't even see Bernie suspended through my news feed, but instead, through social media. ETA: That said, perhaps the key to being heard in the tumult is to focus your outreach on Coronavirus. Cuomo, for example, I'm seeing on every news-feed non-stop and I don't live in New York. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 @larrytheimp Quote Trump watches the Pelican Brief over Thanksgiving weekend. And in typical fashion, he can't pay attention long enough to get to the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 1 minute ago, The Great Unwashed said: It's entirely possible that Biden's team makes the calculation that maintaining a moderate course is more important to his chances in the general than tacking to the left, banking on disaffection with Trump and the circumstances of a bad economy/global pandemic to shore up support on their left flank. I can't necessarily say that's a bad calculation given everything that is going on. Okay, let's figure out what an outreach to the left Biden could do as policy goals - what would be sufficient? Would providing community college for free be something? How about forgiving student loans past a certain payment time, so that after 20 years or so they were entirely gone? How about a $15 minimum wage? If not M4A, what about giving everyone the ability to buy into something like medicare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, Simon Steele said: ETA: That said, perhaps the key to being heard in the tumult is to focus your outreach on Coronavirus. Cuomo, for example, I'm seeing on every news-feed non-stop and I don't live in New York. I don't think this is a good comparison though, Cuomo's job puts him right in the thick of things. His handling of the crisis is second only to Trump's in importance, given that NY has 1/3rd of cases nationally. Biden has no job, and thus very little to say. I'd also say that IF Cuomo were the nominee, Trump would make sure that NY were completely fucked to make Cuomo look bad. So it's probably for the best that Biden isn't a governor, because that state would be on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 From last thread... Breyer is 81 and a man. Actuarial tables only give him a year longer than Ginsburg currently has. Fortunately he doesn't have any known chronic health issues. Still, I don't think it's a risk worth taking of him hanging on 5 more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 Less Sanders supporters went to Trump in 2016, than Clinton supporters went to McCain in 2008. I imagine in 2020 it'll be very little different. Anyone seeking to blame ’Bernie-bros’ or whatever when/if Biden loses seems to have little reason to. If Biden runs a competent campaign-actually remains relevant to the public, and present himself as being a good alternative to Trump-not simply less bad some supporters from his nomination backing the other party’s candidate-something that happens in every election-shouldn’t matter much. 12 minutes ago, Maithanet said: I don't think this is a good comparison though, Cuomo's job puts him right in the thick of things. His handling of the crisis is second only to Trump's in importance, given that NY has 1/3rd of cases nationally. Biden has no job, and thus very little to say. I don't think that's true. I imagine there's plenty more ’controversial’ things that Biden could say in regards to Trump’s handling of the pandemic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 11 minutes ago, Maithanet said: I don't think this is a good comparison though, Cuomo's job puts him right in the thick of things. His handling of the crisis is second only to Trump's in importance, given that NY has 1/3rd of cases nationally. Biden has no job, and thus very little to say. Also, the national political media is based in New York City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 6 minutes ago, Fez said: Still, I don't think it's a risk worth taking of him hanging on 5 more years. Certainly isn't, just wondering if there were rumors I hadn't heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Kalbear said: Okay, let's figure out what an outreach to the left Biden could do as policy goals - what would be sufficient? Would providing community college for free be something? How about forgiving student loans past a certain payment time, so that after 20 years or so they were entirely gone? How about a $15 minimum wage? If not M4A, what about giving everyone the ability to buy into something like medicare? I like the thought exercise wrt negotiating with policy to get the Disaffected Left on board. I'd say probably some combination of a progressive, much younger woman VP pick, with free community college, forgiveness of the delinquent amount of student loans + interest, full forgiveness of student loans with more than 15 years of cumulative payments, public Medicare buy-in with either a subsidy being paid to individuals with low income/employer-provided insurance, or with the elimination of subsidies for employer-provided insurance, and significant tax increases across most levels of income. ETA: And the ability to discharge student loans in bankruptcy, perhaps under more stringent conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davos Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 16 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Okay, let's figure out what an outreach to the left Biden could do as policy goals - what would be sufficient? Would providing community college for free be something? How about forgiving student loans past a certain payment time, so that after 20 years or so they were entirely gone? How about a $15 minimum wage? If not M4A, what about giving everyone the ability to buy into something like medicare? If he was to run on a package that would include all the above items, I would be much more comfortable with him from a policy standpoint, maybe even enthusiastic about the platform, though I do have some issues with his personal history that I would need to consider carefully. I'm way to the left on most issues and these aims would still fall far short of what, in my view, we need as a nation. But, if enacted through well designed legislation, they would help a lot of people in significant ways. And I serious issues with those who would sacrifice meaningful change in the name of pursing an ideal that can't be reached right now. Of course, Biden would have to actually present this platform, or whatever components he was going to utilize in a convincing manner. But in the hypothetical, yes, there are things that could get this leftist to back him, not just reluctantly vote for him because he's not Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 7 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said: a progressive, much younger woman VP pick Who would be acceptable? Just reciting the top of the consensus list, which of Whitmer, Harris, Baldwin, Duckworth, Cortez Masto, Abrams would be acceptable and which wouldn't? If not them, who? The rest of what you said sounds good, btw - except, uh, no to raising taxes across most levels of income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 14 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Okay, let's figure out what an outreach to the left Biden could do as policy goals - what would be sufficient? Would providing community college for free be something? How about forgiving student loans past a certain payment time, so that after 20 years or so they were entirely gone? How about a $15 minimum wage? If not M4A, what about giving everyone the ability to buy into something like medicare? Any or all of these would be good. I wouldn't necessarily believe his commitment to any of them except maybe the first one and the minimum wage one. There are some Sanders supporters who won't vote for Biden, but if he can get 75-80% of them, especially in battleground states, that's all he needs. Biden should go loudly demand that Congress reconvene immediately and pass some stronger relief for everyone out of work that isn't means tested, and also try to get more $ and protection for essential workers. Do something to show he actually cares about stuff that real people care about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 15 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Less Sanders supporters went to Trump in 2016, than Clinton supporters went to McCain in 2008. I imagine in 2020 it'll be very little different. Anyone seeking to blame ’Bernie-bros’ or whatever when/if Biden loses seems to have little reason to. If Biden runs a competent campaign-actually remains relevant to the public, and present himself as being a good alternative to Trump-not simply less bad some supporters from his nomination backing the other party’s candidate-something that happens in every election-shouldn’t matter much. While the comparison of numbers between Sanders supporters in 2016 and Clinton supporters in 2008 may be true, I think it's important to consider the differences between Trump and McCain. I had a dim view of McCain's personal qualities and I thought his maverick persona was just savvy PR, but he wasn't a fucking monster like Trump. I can see reasons why people might have chosen to vote for him. The only reasons I can see people choosing to vote for Trump are fucking awful reasons. If you supported Bernie and then pivoted to Trump you're a fucking asshole and a moron and blood is on your hands. Sorry, but that's what it is. Also, there's the inescapable fact that McCain lost in 2008, by fairly comfortable margins, and Trump won by the narrowest of margins. The choice that Bernie-to-Trump voters made in 2016 will always be seen as a horrible mistake while the McCain defectors of 2008 will remain a historical footnote. Especially because Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania went for Trump by such razor-thin margins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, DMC said: Who would be acceptable? Just reciting the top of the consensus list, which of Whitmer, Harris, Baldwin, Duckworth, Cortez Masto, Abrams would be acceptable and which wouldn't? If not them, who? The rest of what you said sounds good, btw - except, uh, no to raising taxes across most levels of income. Baldwin would be the biggest leftwardl outreach he could do other than Nina Turner (not going to happen). Is Duckworth eligible as a naturalized citizen? I always thought she'd be a great candidate but read something about how she might not be eligible. Cortez Masto is a great option who hasn't been discussed much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 13 minutes ago, davos said: If he was to run on a package that would include all the above items, I would be much more comfortable with him from a policy standpoint, maybe even enthusiastic about the platform, though I do have some issues with his personal history that I would need to consider carefully. I'm way to the left on most issues and these aims would still fall far short of what, in my view, we need as a nation. But, if enacted through well designed legislation, they would help a lot of people in significant ways. And I serious issues with those who would sacrifice meaningful change in the name of pursing an ideal that can't be reached right now. Of course, Biden would have to actually present this platform, or whatever components he was going to utilize in a convincing manner. But in the hypothetical, yes, there are things that could get this leftist to back him, not just reluctantly vote for him because he's not Trump. Are you aware that all of those are already part of Joe Biden's Platform? I assume you are, but in case, here's the quotes from Biden's website: Would providing community college for free be something? Providing two years of community college or other high-quality training program without debt for any hard-working individual looking to learn and improve their skills to keep up with the changing nature of work. He will also make four-year public colleges and universities tuition-free for all students whose family incomes are below $125,000. How about forgiving student loans past a certain payment time, so that after 20 years or so they were entirely gone? After 20 years, the remainder of the loans for people who have responsibly made payments through the program will be 100% forgiven. How about a $15 minimum wage? Increase the federal minimum wage to $15. If not M4A, what about giving everyone the ability to buy into something like medicare? All Americans will have a new, more affordable option. The public option, like Medicare, will negotiate prices with providers, providing a more affordable option for many Americans who today find their health insurance too expensive. It is frustrating to me that while Biden is undeniably not a true progressive, if his platform were adopted it would be a huge win for a bunch of progressive causes. I understand people's concern that Biden won't fight as hard for these things as Sanders, but to me that argument is completely moot in the general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 12 minutes ago, larrytheimp said: Is Duckworth eligible as a naturalized citizen? It's a fair question that's never been resolved by the courts, but her situation isn't much different than McCain's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 37 minutes ago, DMC said: Who would be acceptable? Just reciting the top of the consensus list, which of Whitmer, Harris, Baldwin, Duckworth, Cortez Masto, Abrams would be acceptable and which wouldn't? If not them, who? The rest of what you said sounds good, btw - except, uh, no to raising taxes across most levels of income. I mean, I'm not exactly sure. I'm not one of the ones who need convincing. I'd hazard that Abrams would probably be the most palatable candidate out of that list, although I don't believe any of them would be on the shortlist. And that's not to say that I think he must nominate a very progressive VP, or needs to give Sanders veto power over his VP pick. Just that it's one thing out of some to choose from. I just think that whatever he does needs to be rather bold, if he's sincere about actually mending bridges. ETA: I hadn't realized that Cortez-Mastro didnt endorse a candidate for 2020, so I'll amend my initial choice of Abrams to Cortez-Mastro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudguard Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Kalbear said: Okay, let's figure out what an outreach to the left Biden could do as policy goals - what would be sufficient? Would providing community college for free be something? How about forgiving student loans past a certain payment time, so that after 20 years or so they were entirely gone? How about a $15 minimum wage? If not M4A, what about giving everyone the ability to buy into something like medicare? Is this a trick question? Aren't these part of Biden's platform? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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