US Politics: Biden vs. Trump and Corona, Thunderdome Society at Its Very Best

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I'm not sure; do we have a suicide pact, or are we 

Look, I get that a lot of people don't like Sanders supporters, and are enjoying their opportunity to dig their knives in now that Sanders has been defeated. I would also like to point out how Sanders supporters are now increasingly being described and grouped together as a monolithic entity, which is about as stupid and counterproductive thing to do as I can imagine.

No.

A lot of people who liked Sanders a long time ago dislike new Sanders supporters who know fuck all about politics. 

 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I would also like to point out how Sanders supporters are now increasingly being described and grouped together as a monolithic entity, which is about as stupid and counterproductive thing to do as I can imagine.

It is quite stupid.  And it's ridiculous that the media amplifies the very small percentage of Sanders supporters on Twitter just because everybody in political media is on Twitter and hyping intraparty unrest gets ratings.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

No.

A lot of people who liked Sanders a long time ago dislike new Sanders supporters who know fuck all about politics. 

 

I didn't notice any distinction being made between Sanders supporters generally, and Sanders supporters who know fuck all about politics.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I didn't notice any distinction being made between Sanders supporters generally, and Sanders supporters who know fuck all about politics.

Clearly you missed the hundreds of posts made about what he advocated for was little more than libertarian wishful thinking.

@A Horse Named Stranger was right to call him the liberal Ron Paul.

And I say that liking both, useless old farts as they are. 
 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Clearly you missed the hundreds of posts made about what he advocated for was little more than libertarian wishful thinking.

@A Horse Named Stranger was right to call him the liberal Ron Paul.

And I say that liking both, useless old farts as they are. 
 

C'mon man, you and I both know that as long as McConnell holds the Senate, any Democratic proposal has about a fart's chance in a hurricane of actually passing, and all of the payfors and proposals and whatnot is just messaging for the primary.

Biden claims that he can somehow talk Republicans into passing Democratic proposals, which is just as pie-in-the-sky as any of Bernie's proposals, and no one calls him out on that.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

25 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

What the fuck are you actually talking about? We have this already? Can you point me to where after 20 years of paying loans off they're entirely forgiven without any debt or anything?

Again, I get complaining about things, but read what is actually there? This is basically the European college model for the most part. 

I'm gonna bet that you supported it when Sanders did. 

Rated half-true by politifact.

That list is 4 points out of hundreds of fairly progressive policy goals. All of which are better than both what we have under Trump and what we have ever had in the US. 

Settle down turbo and don't have a meltdown. You have two loan forgiveness programs, one is 10 years, and 1 is 20 to 25 years. https://www.debt.org/students/loan-forgiveness/ Your example of what I'm supposed to read? I have this already. It's a Bush administration program that Biden's just gonna tweak a little. It fucking blows. 

My discretionary income was calculated to be ZERO (with two advanced degrees) because I make so little, and for ten years, I can make zero dollar payments and then the loans are forgiven.

I said the college thing was fine.

I've always supported minimum wage with the caveat that the free market needs some controls on it to quit screwing poor people. 

Your list sucks dude, and because people think it's great is why Biden's gonna lose.

ETA: "Half true" or not with Politifact means little. The narrative is out there because he said a stupid thing. Let's just hope he isn't prone to saying stupid things!

[Centrist Simon Steele]

12 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I didn't notice any distinction being made between Sanders supporters generally, and Sanders supporters who know fuck all about politics.

I'd say there is a distinction now, and it's made by in-group voice.  Those vocal online Bernie supporters who are raining down on anyone who supported Bernie and plans to now vote for Biden. That's okay, because I do think they're a small group, but they're out there.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

C'mon man, you and I both know that as long as McConnell holds the Senate, any Democratic proposal has about a fart's chance in a hurricane of actually passing, and all of the payfors and proposals and whatnot is just messaging for the primary.

Biden claims that he can somehow talk Republicans into passing Democratic proposals, which is just as pie-in-the-sky as any of Bernie's proposals, and no one calls him out on that.

Maybe, but at least there's some realism to it.

And never more have I wanted to taste Turtle stew. Perhaps a crisis can create an opportunity. 

[Kalbear]

Just now, DMC said:

It is quite stupid.  And it's ridiculous that the media amplifies the very small percentage of Sanders supporters on Twitter just because everybody in political media is on Twitter and hyping intraparty unrest gets ratings.

To be fair, it really isn't just "Sanders supporters". It's people like his comms director:

 

 

1 minute ago, Simon Steele said:

Settle down turbo and don't have a meltdown. You have two loan forgiveness programs, one is 10 years, and 1 is 20 to 25 years. https://www.debt.org/students/loan-forgiveness/ Your example of what I'm supposed to read? I have this already. It's a Bush administration program that Biden's just gonna tweak a little. It fucking blows. 

Tweaking a little means that basically every single person currently on loans would pay far less then they are now and would payback nothing after 20 years, and he actually cares about the program happening. 

Also, the pay as you earn plan is not a Bush-era plan. It's something Obama introduced in 2011: https://www.debt.org/students/obama-pay-as-you-earn/ . And the big kicker here is that it only applied to those who had loans from 2007 on. This would apply to everyone. That is not a particularly small thing. And it reduces the discretionary income cap from 10% to 5%. Again, that is huge. And, it makes it so that if you make more than $55k a year, you can still qualify. That again - huge. 

1 minute ago, Simon Steele said:

My discretionary income was calculated to be ZERO (with two advanced degrees) because I make so little, and for ten years, I can make zero dollar payments and then the loans are forgiven. 

That's great! but that's because you're a teacher. Others don't get that at all. I certainly don't. 

1 minute ago, Simon Steele said:

Your list sucks dude, and because people think it's great is why Biden's gonna lose.

Policy doesn't matter, one way or another, and my list sucking or not doesn't matter either as far as who is going to win. Obama didn't win based on policy. Neither did Clinton. Neither did Carter. (and how depressing is it that those are the last three Dem POTUS?) But yes, there are a lot of things in that set of policy goals that are great, and even more that are good. Are they enough? Are they sufficient? Probably not! But they are better than no change, and they are far better than actively making things worse. 

[GrimTuesday]

41 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

There is nothing Biden or anyone else can say or do to convince the Sanders vanguard to vote for Biden. They are not Democrats. They vote for Sanders for reasons unrelated to policy or the general well being of America. It's about purity and new religion for these folks. Come November the vanguard votes for Trump or some equivalent act. Biden's got to find some other way to win. I got a pit in my stomach about the whole thing. It's funny before then Virus I thought Biden was a slam dunk. I don't think that anymore.

Don't come crying to us if Biden loses in November because the Left didn't show up, it's not our fault that you nominated a trash candidate because Chapo Trap House said mean things on twitter. Sorry we don't accept the scraps that you have been given for the last 70 years. It is the failure of the older generation that got fat and complacent while the future was destroyed by war, climate change, and austerity, not our fault for believing that we can effect a positive change and you don't have to pussy foot around calling out those who are actively damaging that progress even if they are nominally on our side.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Simon Steele said:

I'd say there is a distinction now, and it's made by in-group voice.  Those vocal online Bernie supporters who are raining down on anyone who supported Bernie and plans to now vote for Biden. That's okay, because I do think they're a small group, but they're out there.

I'm sure there are, and supporters like me are out there behind the scenes trying to cut down on that fucking shit. Reinforcing their perspective by piling on Bernie supporters at large is not helping. 

I consider myself to be a pragmatic supporter, which means I'm Team Bernie and then Team Democrat. I have contact with several volunteers for the campaign in my area and I can tell you that several of us have been contacting people to try and talk them down, or coddle them, or whatever. Lots of Sanders supporters are mourning today, and I hope that people can remember and understand and forgive some of the anger and resist the temptation to pile on.

[Guest]

Double post.

And, because I consider myself a pragmatic Democrat, I'll give credit where it is due, and I see this as the beginning of a good start in a change of Biden's rhetoric.

Coronavirus opportunity for big, structural change per Biden

Quote

“I think it’s going to, it may not dwarf, but eclipse what [Franklin Delano Roosevelt] faced,” he said. “We have an opportunity, Chris, to do so many things now to change some of the structural things that are wrong, some of the structural things we couldn’t get anyone’s attention on.”

The comments were somewhat of a departure for Biden, who has positioned his campaign as a way to return to normal after the Trump years. He was not the candidate of “big structural change,” a message more likely to be found coming from his former primary rival, Sen. Bernie Sanders, who announced Wednesday he was suspending his campaign. But the pandemic and the resulting economic collapse have become an opportunity for the Biden campaign to reset its messaging.

 

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Don't come crying to us if Biden loses in November because the Left didn't show up, it's not our fault that you nominated a trash candidate because Chapo Trap House said mean things on twitter. Sorry we don't accept the scraps that you have been given for the last 70 years. It is the failure of the older generation that got fat and complacent while the future was destroyed by war, climate change, and austerity, not our fault for believing that we can effect a positive change and you don't have to pussy foot around calling out those who are actively damaging that progress even if they are nominally on our side.

How did that work out for Sanders? 

I'm entirely willing to believe - as I have for the last 3 years now - that Trump will win. At the same time, that 'trash candidate' beat Sanders. And didn't just beat him, he trounced him hard enough that he was dead after Super Tuesday, and then kept beating him. 

So yeah, if "believing that we can effect a positive change and you don't have to pussy foot around calling out those who are actively damaging that progress even if they are nominally on our side" doesn't get what you want - why are you doing it? What is the value? I get that it feels good to rage on people who are idiots and horrible and even people who are largely okay but don't agree with you on something fundamental. What I don't think you understand is how influential that is to their view. 

Two examples. I was getting into gym work really, really strongly, and a lot of people saw how much I was enjoying it and doing certain things, and they suggested that I try CrossFit. And I told them, flat out, no way. Not because it's hard, or because it makes people puke - because a guy I know is a raging asshole who constantly promotes crossfit (among other stupid trends). That colored that entire thing badly for me, and I just won't do it now. And I, a rational human being, understands completely how irrational this is but that doesn't change it.

The other example is more of a point that people constantly underestimate how influential they are. Yeah, it sounds like getting yelled at by randos on twitter shouldn't matter that much, but turns out that we have significantly more influence over people than we think - both people we know, and people we don't. Again, that sucks, and it's irrational, but if you don't recognize it you're not going to have a good time convincing anyone to join the cause, no matter how righteous. 

[Martell Spy]

Republican Lawmakers in Kansas Revoke Governor’s Stay at Home Order Ahead of Easter Services

https://www.thedailybeast.com/republican-lawmakers-in-kansas-revoke-governors-stay-at-home-order-ahead-of-easter-services?ref=home

Quote

Republican lawmakers in the Kansas House and Senate voted Wednesday to revoke the governor’s executive order limiting gatherings to fewer than 10 people. Republicans in the state had denounced the order by governor Laura Kelly, a Democrat, as an unconstitutional infringement on religious liberty due to the anticipated damper it would put on Easter Sunday services.

 

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And never more have I wanted to taste Turtle stew. Perhaps a crisis can create an opportunity.

I can agree with that.

[Jaxom 1974]

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Baldwin would be the biggest leftwardl outreach he could do other than Nina Turner (not going to happen).  Is Duckworth eligible as a naturalized citizen?  I always thought she'd be a great candidate but read something about how she might not be eligible.  Cortez Masto is a great option who hasn't been discussed much.

Duckworth is eligible.

I haven't followed her as much in recent years since I've been out of Illinois, but I think she's fantastic. 

1 hour ago, Week said:

There were many other races on the ballot - including a seat on the state Supreme Court (currently held by a Republican). People were forced to the polls by state and national GOP partisans.

I hate what had to be done, but from what I've seen, I'm hoping beyond hope that the court seat goes to the challenger.  The judge that holds the seat now, the Republican, is terrible...not just because he's a Republican, but really, because he's a Republican...

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

And about how laughably self-important they are. Have you ever seen a 'movement' (We need some kind of German word to denote useless but ear-piercingly repeated bitchiness on Twitter that results in no Terra Firma reaction) get so exposed as powerless yet demand so much? 

I'll tell you what's wrong with Bernie fans. They're entitled little fuckwits who think their in-group of moderately educated assholes just barely smart enough to reproduce tweets represent the wants and needs of all Americans. 

Biden supporters are awfully toxic, jeez.  

- signed, entitled little fuckwit

[karaddin]

First off I'd like to ask people to cool it, or at least narrow the scope, on condemning all people that have issues with Biden. There's specifically one category of people, of which we've already had one identify themselves in the last thread, who have a very good reason to refuse to vote for him - survivors of rape and sexual assault. Whether you agree with those people that the accusation is credible or not, the point is that they find that it is and a decision to not "vote for the lesser rapist" is entirely fair. If you disagree with this try finding some more compassion for people that have a trauma like that laying heavily on their lives ffs.

If the Dems didn't want to risk alienating these people then they shouldn't have nominated someone whose issues with personal boundaries are memed about. It doesn't take a prophet to predict this might have become an issue for Biden, they should have fucking chosen better.

I want to start off my second point with a disclaimer - I do not have the answer to this and I'm not even sure there is one.

What is the Dem plan for dealing with the prospect of vote suppression like was just seen in Wisconsin? We just saw an area that warranted 160 polling locations cut to 5. There has been plenty of discussion of other suppression methods in the past, voter ID etc, but just closing most of the polling booths in Dem districts is a simple approach that could have a major impact.

How do you win the election if that happens across every battleground state? Trump won by such narrow margins last time even a small influence can have a decisive impact. Do you just rely on overwhelming enthusiasm to drown the election in votes? Sufficient enthusiasm to keep people waiting in lines for an entire day of lost income that they can't afford to lose? 

If the answer is enthusiasm I absolutely promise that another 6 months of fighting with Bernie supporters isn't going to build it.

ETA: And I don't even mean anything specific to Bernie supporters there, just infighting generally. If the Dem voters are tearing strips off each other for the next 6 months it's going to drain enthusiasm regardless of what it's over. Disagreement can be fine, but this tone of infighting is not.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Paladin of Ice said:

But more Sanders supporters seem to have either stayed home or refused to vote for president.

The turnout was low in general.

2 hours ago, Paladin of Ice said:

And that's nothing something coming from establishment DNC or media, this is something Sanders supporters in these threads have talked about repeatedly for the last 8 months or so.

I'll be frank I don't take what a few posters forum say here as solid proof of public sentiments in general outside of it.

2 hours ago, Paladin of Ice said:

Yeah, they didn't vote Trump, and most voted Clinton, but plenty of others voted Jill Stein, or Gary Johnson, (as nucking futs as that is) or wrote in a name, or left it blank, or stayed home.

Yes.

2 hours ago, Paladin of Ice said:

Anecdotally speaking, I know more than a few, and spent those last 6 months or so in the lead up to the 2016 election all but begging them not to sit it out. I saw them whipping up people on social media, and sharing every anti-Clinton article and meme that came out along in the way, (including one time when I had to lay into to a progressive friend for sharing memes straight from Sarah fucking Palin's PAC) telling everyone around them not to vote for Clinton. I know a few who still stick by their guns now, including people in swing states, who are still happy to say how "It didn't make any difference."

Oh no, I don't some people are apathetic enough to not vote-even now-and are proud of that fact. I simply don't see ”Bernie bros.” as being the cause of such disinterest, or would have played that much more a role if Clinton had run a more effective campaign.

2 hours ago, Paladin of Ice said:

That's what has to be avoided. You can feel feel angry about it or disgusted or whatever. Personally, I'd rather try to smash my head through a stone wall than vote for Cuomo for president. But if he was the nominee, I'd have gotten my anger out of the way, taken a few shots, and acted like a goddamn grown up and done it.

Here's the thing; getting rid of Trump may be exciting. Your moral umbrage with the man may be justified, and that's enough for you to back whoever.

To many people-to people Biden needs to win, simply getting rid of Trump is not sufficient reason to vote for Biden.

Indeed, they could simply opt to vote third-party, or not vote altogether.

So, it's not enough for them to hate Trump. 

They have to like Biden-they have to be excited to vote for Biden. 

2 hours ago, Paladin of Ice said:

That's all I want to see. Be as fucking angry as you want. Resolve to push Biden as far left as possible and continue it every single day until the election, when he's in office if he wins, and continue that push afterwards. I certainly intend to do just that.

Oh, no you misunderstand. I'm not angry that Biden having not gone farther to the left. 

3 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

Also, there's the inescapable fact that McCain lost in 2008, by fairly comfortable margins, 

Yes. People were excited to vote Obama.

[Larry of the Lawn]

7 minutes ago, karaddin said:

 

What is the Dem plan for dealing with the prospect of vote suppression like was just seen in Wisconsin? .

I've heard that Warren and others are calling for another relief bill that will have voting protections, all vote by mail, but there's going to be enormous pushback on this from Republicans.  Not even sure how it would hold up in court, the states have been given enormous leeway when it comes to voting.