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King Adrian Storm

How is Dany's storyline going to fit into 2 books?

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27 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I feel like Yunkai has done Qarth more harm than Dany Yeah, I've never could get aboard the "Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys II and Joanna Lannister" theory train. It ruins the poetic justice of Tywin's death and it almost validates people's (especially Cersei but everyone in general) fear and hatred of Tyrion. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Oh, but George has been deconstructing Tywin from the start. First he was a glacier who never smiled, then there was the secret smile he for Cersei, then he smiled as a corpse, and then we learned that he laughed a lot with Joanna. Also, for three books he allegedly loathes whores ... until we learn that for some fucked-up reason he fucked the whore-mistress of the dwarf son he intended to execute during the very night before that execution (and he gave her his chain of office to wear during and after their sex). Or take him refusing to pay Joff's and Tommen's debts with Lannister gold while taking on the debts Aerys II inherited from his father on himself during his first years as Hand. Tywin is pretty complex.

There was something very weird going on with Tywin. Him taking Aerys' son in and making him his own son because Joanna was a Lannister by birth and his beloved wife would add much more depth to his character ... and would make his actions more understandable. Because the way Tywin treats Tyrion in ASoS is very petty - it never made much sense that he would mistreat and despise him this much after everything he did to save the family.

Not to mention the irony of Jaime murdering Tyrion's dad while Tyrion murdered Jaime's dad, the possibility for Tyrion making his peace with the murder of his legal father afterwards, his potential to get into Dany's good graces up to a point, etc.

There would be a lot of narrative potential there.

27 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm not denying all the buildup regarding Tyrion and dragons (he's actually writing a book on dragonlore, that should be interesting to read). I'm saying that Tyrion will be denied a dragon by Daenerys. The fact that no one -- except for maybe Daenerys and that's a huge stretch -- will trust him is precisely the reason why he won't be allowed a dragon. And he isn't physically fit enough to tame a dragon like Daenerys did in Daenerys IX. For that matter, I don't think we've ever seen or heard of a disabled person riding a dragon, especially not into war.

Dany has no way denying Tyrion anything. The dragons are in Slaver's Bay. She isn't. They are there for the taking.

In the end all you need to do to claim a dragon is mount it. And one sees how this could go: Viserion shows up in front of Tyrion during the coming battle. Penny is so terrified she cannot move away. Tyrion has one of his rare moments of courage and chivalry and, like Barristan Selmy back in the pit, he does not only challenge the dragon but jumps on his back to get his attention. And *bang* he will be a dragonrider, if he has the Targaryen blood.

As a guy knowing his dragonlore Tyrion will never be jealous that he doesn't get a dragon if he doesn't believe/has Targaryen blood. He knows and believes that only those who have dragonlord blood can ride dragons. That's why he expected Brown Ben to be liked by Dany's dragons - he knew that Ben, a descendant of Elaena Targaryen and most likely Aegon IV, too, would have the potential to become a dragonrider.

27 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

So yeah, Tyrion won't get a dragon but I think it will piss him off to no end. Tyrion has never been an objectively good person like Ned and Cat were and he has gotten much worse over the course of the series. I foresee him being a major villain in the vein of Littlefinger, Lysa or even Tywin by the end of the series. Think about it? Tyrion is the typical "nice guy" stereotype. Failing to get a dragon and failing to get "the girl" (Tysha, Sansa and/or Daenerys) is going to drive him over the edge and turn on Daenerys. I think he's one of her betrayals...either for gold or for love.

He can betray Dany for love and be a dragonrider and her half-brother - in fact, the betrayal would be much worse if they were this closely related.

27 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't think Tyrion is useless in Slaver's Bay. While I think he'll finesse his way to being the captain of a sellsword company and may even be able to bring one of the Free Cities under Daenerys' control, I think Tyrion's core role in Slaver's Bay is getting the dirt on the Sons of the Harpy and exposing/destroying them. Think about it. Tyrion is the only political savant in the area; he's the best man for the job in terms of court intrigue and backdoor conspiracies.

Well, if I were Selmy or Vic or Skahaz or Greyworm the only thing Tyrion Lannister would get from me is a red smile or a noose around his neck.

The guy is not to be trusted. And he will be of no use in Meereense politics unless people allow him to get familiar with the people in power. But why would they allow him to do that?

Barristan might spare his life if he had reason to believe he was Dany's half-brother. Keep in mind that Tyrion was not recognized by either Selmy or Dany back in ADwD. Why was that? And neither Barristan nor Tyrion have ever thought about each other in their chapters. Not to mention all that Joanna-Aerys stuff.

27 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

LOL....okay so how long do you think the Battle of Ice will take? Because I have NO clue. And what would Stannis do after Winterfell? Sit on his hands? Besiege the Dreadfort? Fall back on the Wall?

All I can predict is that Sansa is going to be back in Winterfell by the beginning of A Dream of Spring with an army of Valemen.

The latter is very unlikely in my opinion. I expect Sansa to convince the Vale to declare for Aegon and be involved in the KL story down there. The North plan was for next spring, and the road to Winterfell is much more easy when a new king recognizes you as its rightful ruler.

But in the North there is a lot of stuff that can happen - Stannis will have to clean up Jon's mess. There might be a mission to Hardhome, they will have to deal with the Weeper who is likely going to cross the Brige of Skulls, destroy the Shadow Tower, and invade the Gifts and the North with a couple of thousand wildlings. Then there is the Nightfort to consider - Stannis wanted to settle there back in ASoS and is likely going to do that if he returns from Winterfell so that whatever plot he and Mel are supposed to have there can get going.

Then there will be missions to figure out who and what the Others are and what they want.

The Dreadfort could also become an issue, if Roose were to escape from Winterfell. They would also have to deal with Dagmer Cleftjaw's Ironborn at Torrhen's Square.

The whole Iron Bank plot can pursued as well - I expect Selyse and Shireen will go there after Massey gets to the Wall, possibly before Stannis himself returns - or they have confirmation that he never died.

27 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I think that there will be another Red Wedding type event and Jaime will be forced to participate and/or watch. I think it will be Daven's wedding; I don't want it will happen at Riverrun although it might. I'd much rather it happen at Casterly Rock. It's deviously ironic. Plus, we haven't seen Casterly Rock yet.

Well, Tom is inside Riverrun right now, so we are likely going to get a postern gate being open and the outlaws and many other leal Rivermen are going to get in there to slaughter them in the night.

27 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Catelyn can send Brienne almost immediately after she returns. Not saying she will let Brienne go but it's very likely. Brienne still has to find Sansa/Arya and she still has scores to settle with Stannis Baratheon.

I doubt Brienne will get a chance to kill Stannis. She would likely want to remain with Jaime, but, yes, Cat might send her out to find her daughters.

27 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Meh I don't know. Yes, he is passing time but why would Euron position himself directly against Oldtown. The Hightowers are a powerful family and they are right there. Euron could attack Sunspear or any other Dornish coastal town. Euron could raid the Arbor or the lands of House Costayne. Hell, he could've passed the time harrying the defenseless Riverlands.

Why Oldtown specifically? It has to interest Euron somehow. There's a lot of information in Oldtown that Euron would be interested in.

But Euron wanted to go to Meereen himself. He only stayed behind because he couldn't leave his people and they wouldn't accompany him. That's why he sent Vic. He only conquered the Shields to increase his hold over the Ironborn. He doesn't care whether his new lords there can hold them or not. That was all just a distraction. He wants the Iron Throne.

Now he has to deal with the Redwynes because they are coming for him. Once he has crushed them - or if he crushes them - he will take the Arbor which is going to make a fine seat while he isn't in KL yet. It is an island and save from any attacks from the Reach lords. After that, his next target will likely indeed be Sunspear - once he learns about Aegon and that the Dornishmen joined him.

27 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Sufficient support? Neither Euron nor any other Ironborn lord/king would never ever get "sufficient" support for the Iron Throne to begin with. Westeros would prefer to have Shireen over Euron. Euron's only chance of winning the Iron Throne is with blood and steel in a conquest.

I didn't know about the leather straps. I thought he was bound to the prow the same way Falia is.

Go back to AFfC. Euron has an evil and a smiling eye. He is a psychopath and monster who can pretend to be a nice guy. That's what he does throughout AFfC which is why most people thought he wasn't that big of a deal until 'The Foresaken'.

Once he has crushed the Redwynes, he will send envoys to the Hightowers and their bannermen, offering generous terms. And they will accept. That's what they did back in the day of the Driftwood Kings, too.

And of course Euron doesn't want to be another Aegon the Conqueror. Conquest and war will be part of his bid for the Iron Throne, but there is a reason why he wants to marry Daenerys - to gain legitimacy. As king consort to Daenerys Targaryen he would have a claim strong enough that many a Westerosi lord would consider supporting their bid for the Iron Throne. Cersei or Myrcella are the next best thing to that - they would give him also some semblance of legitimacy (Cersei was Robert's wife, after all) and, more importantly, they would give him the gold and the power of Casterly Rock. He needs at least one great house on the mainland to have a fighting chance. The Hightowers will only bend the knee as long as they have to - and if Aeron survives and tells Lord Leyton what kind of monster Euron is we can expect them to break faith with Euron as soon as his armada leaves his waters. Which they should do when Euron's plans to take the Iron Throne become more concrete.

Without a wife royal blood/standing he has little to offer for himself - and even less so if he were to sack Oldtown without (good) cause. He could never hold the city, anyway. And if he wants to visit the Citadel and take something from there he could just as well do this as a guest after the Hightowers acknowledged him as their king and overlord.

As for the Cersei stuff:

Mace might not kill Cersei, but Cersei will fear that he does. And, to be sure, I'd not be certain they would not want to see her dead. And we don't know whether there is going to be a trial. It is scheduled, but the double murder could ruin all that. If Cersei gets it then the trial will likely mark the moment where she has to run ... because I think she will be convicted there. Oh, Ser Robert Strong should win the fight(s), alright, but I expect that his true identity and nature will be revealed, and then the High Septon will condemn this as blasphemy and foul sorcery and proof that Cersei is guilty. And since all the accusations are on the table this will also result in the public declaration that Tommen and Myrcella are Jaime's children.

After that, Cersei will have to run for her life. And her children, too, if they are still around. Whether Myrcella gets into the city or is captured by the Golden Company along the way we don't know yet.

Well, if Mace/Margaery died, Tarly would still be around. The way Aegon is going to win might have to do much with Mace's men defecting to his side or simply refusing to fight a Targaryen pretender who, by that time, will have Mathis Rowan and possibly other Reach lords (Owen Merryweather, Titus Peake) riding at his side. Then Mace might just accept defeat himself and do homage to Aegon. After all, if Tommen and Myrcella were declared bastards before that happens, the Tyrells will lose their legal hold on the Iron Throne, anyway. They will lack a king or queen they could use as a figurehead against Aegon, even if they were still alive. It is one thing if Stannis denounces you as a bastard, but a different thing if the High Septon and the gods themselves do it.

I expect that the Marcher lords and other Stormlords are going to join Aegon, too, after he has taken Storm's End. That will prove to them that he is a worthy king. Many Stormlanders are already flocking to his banner in the Arianne chapters.

No idea when Tommen and Myrcella will die, but I think Tommen might die when Cersei tries to take him with her when she flees the city, and Myrcella might end the way Jaehaera Targaryen died - by being thrown in the dry moat, possibly at the command of Jon Connington. If Myrcella were to end up in Aegon's power because the Golden Company captures her in the Stormlands she could even be Aegon's first wife - a part of a quick power grab to strengthen his claim by marrying her to Robert's alleged daughter - only to be murdered after he sits on the Iron Throne.

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23 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

You're making several assumptions. Most notably, you seem to be under the impression that they're going to fight the Others. More damning, you're under the impression they're going fight them and win.

The Others aren't there to be "beaten". This is not a story about an evil army of inhuman monsters that need to set on fire. That's not how GRRM works, that's not what he values. If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.

My money is the last book ends with one of the few surviving POV characters watching the last sun rise. It barely peeks over the horizon in the southern sky, then dips down moments later, and is never seen again, at least not in that character's lifetime. They don't "win". At best, some of the characters we care about are "safe" in castles with geothermal heat sources, but Winter with a capital "W" is here and when they say it's going to last a generation they mean exactly that. The ending is "bittersweet" in that we will have some understanding of what the various prophecies mean and the knowledge that they are in fruition, that they will someday bring the Spring, but we the readers, like our narrators, will not get to see it manifest: Spring is, after all, a dream.

And for the record, I seriously doubt Daenerys will be the one to live to that last peek of sunlight. The thematics demand she dies in childbirth, literal or figurative. Though she likely makes it JUST to the end.

But of course this is all purely academic: Winds of Winter will be released semi-complete by Martin's publisher after they settle their lawsuit against his estate, but we won't get even that for A Dream of Spring. So the ending will forever be for each of us what we want it to be. For many people, that means a big battle with dragons and the "bad guys" lose and "good guys" get medals and have a parade, and that's okay. Maybe it's for the best we never know how it ends. Maybe that was always the plan. Maybe that's even the point.

I never said once the Others were a super evil army, that the characters are going to beat, and win metals. I didn't go into great detail on them, because we don't know anything about them really. I don't think there's going to be a happy ending. And who says Dany and her dragons are the good guys? Grrm was inspired by the Fire and Ice poem, where it's stated the world could be destroyed by ice or fire. 

The protagonists losing in the end isn't bittersweet at all. My prediction is there will be a big sacrifice to defeat the Others, leaving the reader curious as to whether or not what they did was evil or not.

Come on, do you really think we won't see dragons vs Others. That would be very anticlimactic. The story has been building to this since book 1, when Dany had a dream of fighting them on the trident.

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24 minutes ago, King Adrian Storm said:

The protagonists losing in the end isn't bittersweet at all.

They lose in the same sense that Jesus "loses" when he's crucified, and it's bittersweet for the same reasons.

28 minutes ago, King Adrian Storm said:

Come on, do you really think we won't see dragons vs Others. That would be very anticlimactic.

You need to read some more GRRM if you think he's into "climactic" storytelling.

But as I said, this is academic. We will never see book 7. We will never know for sure.

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14 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

You need to read some more GRRM if you think he's into "climactic" storytelling.

Agreed. In fact, he often builds up to a climax, is almost about to give you this, and then he does some time jump and gives you a resolution to the story that leaves a bitter taste, though the longer you think of it you realize that was actually a fitting end.  He also doesn't have one protagonist do all the necessary stuff by him- or herself alone. Dany personally solving every issue in every city and setting everything to rights and leaving Slaver's Bay or even Essos as "fixed it" is not George's way. We're not getting a Dany conquers Astapor, beats Yunkai and conquer Meereen for the whole of Essos. This is wishful thinking imo of people who believe Dany is the sole major character POV in their head canon and cannot even recognize that he uses Dany's allies (temporarily or permanently) to resolve plot threads left hanging by Dany's departure. Quentyn served to show us the Astapor aftermath without ever requiring Dany's POV to return to it, and to set her dragons free. He didn't just want us to learn of Astapor's fate by hearsay, but have us witness the horror. Selmy served to show us the battle against Yunkai and New Ghis but he's also making a mistake here or there, not being politically savy. Tyrion is set up to become a new ally POV to resolve stuff while Dany's busy doing somethign else. If George wants Qarth resolved, he can use Tyrion's political savvyness to get Victarion to avenge the city's part in the siege of Meereen as some sort of bride price. The harbor of Qarth would be its weakness anyway.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

You need to read some more GRRM if you think he's into "climactic" storytelling.

He's working extra hard at making readers think the dragons are important to defeating the ice zombies.

So they probably arent. But they can still be on the same page together. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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The Starks/North have defeated the Others before without the help of dragons so I wouldn't be surprised that the same will happen in the upcoming battle for dawn. 

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On 4/9/2020 at 1:03 PM, The Young Maester said:

George is going to have to compromise with Daenerys ark. Unless he wants to make us wait 20 years by adding another book to the series. 

Yep. Even if GRRM does a major shift and gives Dany a lot more POVs I don't see how it's possible for Dany to make it back to Westeros at the end. Especially if she doesn't want to abandon the people she just liberated to the power vacuum her absence would create and the inevitable chaos that would ensue. What could possibly go wrong for Dany's children if she leaves SB? A Lot. She can't simply conquer, dip out and expect her reforms to last.  I mean, maybe she pulls a Nymeria II and brings everyone with her to Westeros? I just don't see that happening unless George and his writers are committed to another decade or two of this series.

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I believe a large part of this problem will be solved by Dany cutting short her rule in Meereen. I think her character turning 'bad' or 'mad' will involve the slow abandonment or alteration of her defining beliefs. The first shift, I think, will be a decision that her fate is not tied to Slaver's Bay, that the Ghiscari have no place for her, and so she will prematurely leave Meereen without solving all of its problems, thinking that Westeros is the place she needs to be. Then she'll be back in Westeros in no time. There are only two Victarion chapters during his entire journey from the Reach to Slaver's Bay, why should Daenerys need more? Not much needs to happen on a boat.

Liberation of the Volantene slaves (I think this will happen, though it need not - forsaking the slaves of Volantis in favour of fulfilling her perceived destiny in Westeros could be part of Daenerys' character shift) need only take one chapter, and other important details can be communicated in flashbacks from multiple of our POV characters. As part of her character shift I think Daenerys will neglect to remain in Volantis to support a new government, instead ignoring the mistakes made at Astapor and, after only a brief stop at Volantis, continue on to the Narrow Sea. The faith of R'hllor could provide the backbone of a Volantene liberation government, anyway. Benerro supports Daenerys and since the adherents of R'hllor are to such a great extent slaves, it is probable that they would be a more trustworthy institution to build a liberation government around than the the Ghiscari Graces would have been (I believe the Green Grace is 'the' Harpy, if any such Harpy exists, or at the very least that she is working in the backgrounds to undermine Daenerys' rule even as she tries to make Daenerys fit in). This doesn't require the government to be successful, but perhaps it will be less of a failure, or will appear to have more potential, than the Astapori attempt.

What is more characteristic of GRRM, I ask you? The noble character solving every problem of a foreign culture and triumphantly returning to her homeland, or our noble character showing her flaws and, ultimately unable to fulfil all her goals, being forced to choose between two things she desperately wants? Perhaps Daenerys' turn to tyranny/madness/evil (whatever you want to call it) will happen not against the backdrop of an inherent Targaryen flaw, but rather be borne of grief, guilt, and regret due to her failures in the east.

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George Martin has promised us that the Dothraki will come back to the story in a big way.  I am encouraged.  I hope to have a lot of chapters devoted to them.  George will use as many chapters as he needs to properly tell the story of Dany's adventures with the horse people.  We are in for a great adventure.  Dany will pull off another great miracle here as she did at the end of book one. 

Edited by Son of Man

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On 5/20/2020 at 2:18 AM, Elegant Woes said:

The Starks/North have defeated the Others before without the help of dragons so I wouldn't be surprised that the same will happen in the upcoming battle for dawn. 

Where do you get that? We don't know how the Others were defeated the last time around. In fact, we don't even know that they were defeated. It is also possible the Last Hero simply convinced them to go back where they came from and the Wall was then built as a precaution because they knew they would be back one day because nobody ever defeated them.

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