Hugorfonics Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 1 hour ago, The hairy bear said: Probably we could dispense him of greed, couldn't we? After all, he is often criticized for his prodigality. Still, six of seven ain't bad. Robert wasnt stingy with the realms money, true. But anyone who desperately wants to control the world is greedy Quote "Have you ever seen the Iron Throne? The barbs along the back, the ribbons of twisted steel, the jagged ends of swords and knives all tangled up and melted? It is not a comfortable seat, ser. Aerys cut himself so often men took to calling him King Scab, and Maegor the Cruel was murdered in that chair. By that chair, to hear some tell it. It is not a seat where a man can rest at ease. Ofttimes I wonder why my brothers wanted it so desperately." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Robert wasnt stingy with the realms money, true. But anyone who desperately wants to control the world is greedy Curiously enough neither Robert nor Renly wanted the Throne until it became imperial for their survival, Stannis is just justifying his greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 15 hours ago, Helman Corbray said: Well I don't really think so. He said to Ned he was the one who should have seated in the Iron Throne, but Ned answered he couldn't, because of Robert's proximity to the bloodline. In my opinion he was crowned out of duty rather than power hunger, and this created a snowball effect. You see how he was nice and kind to Mya when he was young with a healthy mind, but as he grew old and broken, he could not find any patience for his own kids and felt ashamed. Well, the strong argument I have to think he was good and the job killed him, was the fact that Ned never felt comfortable befriending foul, corrupt and scheming men (It may be the attributes I dislike, that's why I seem to like Robert. Ned was biased because he loved Robert. It has got nothing to do with whether Robert was moral or not. They were childhood friends and Ned was indulgent. Ned even became the Enabler towards the end. How his love for Robert compromised his judgment was proven on Robert's death bed. Robert chose to rule. He could have stepped aside and done right thing, let King Viserys III have his kingdom back. But no, Robert chose to put his ample bulk on the Targaryen throne. He could have chosen somebody else to take the seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said: Ned was biased because he loved Robert. It has got nothing to do with whether Robert was moral or not. They were childhood friends and Ned was indulgent. Ned even became the Enabler towards the end. How his love for Robert compromised his judgment was proven on Robert's death bed. Robert chose to rule. He could have stepped aside and done right thing, let King Viserys III have his kingdom back. But no, Robert chose to put his ample bulk on the Targaryen throne. He could have chosen somebody else to take the seat. Robert rebelled against a crazy king who wanted his head for no reason other than a betrothal. After this king and his erstwhile replacement end up dead in the rebellion, you want to replace him -- the man who the rebels rallied around and chose to be their king -- with Viserys knowing that Tywin had already killed other Targ heirs, Viserys was already going crazy, and 8 years of regent is basically another Aegon III waiting to happen. This time, though, Viserys the Bitter is going to go looking for vengeance. Also not ignoring the fact that Mace dipped his banners to Robert, not to the rebels looking to crown Viserys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Bolt Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 5 hours ago, The hairy bear said: The cost of organizing the Tourney of the Hand is estimated at 100 k dragons. In perspective, a 6,000 k dragons debt doesn't seem that high. Plenty of countries have external debts of two times their GDP. The UK has 3 times, and the Netherlands 5. Non of them are described as bankrupt states. We don't know the gross product of the Seven Kingdoms, but it seems that it would be a relatively moderate debt. That depends on price of loan which almost certainly is much higher in Westeros than in modern world. For instance interest rates that medieval kings paid could be as high as 50 %. After all kings had nasty tendency to not pay back their loans and so to compensate that risk interest rates of those loans had to be high enough to cover that possibility. So there is a possibility that Iron Throne would have to pay annually 2-3 million dragons just for interest to serve those loans. And if Cercei had stopped to serve those loans then all those unpaid interests would rise the size of debts. If I am correct about what I typed above then I would understand why Ned was shocked when he heard about size of debts of IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 On 4/12/2020 at 10:12 PM, FictionIsntReal said: The King is supposed to have a capable Hand. Ned was recruited for the good of the realm, not his own personal happiness. These aren't mutually exclusive things at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Maester Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 On 4/11/2020 at 8:20 AM, House Of Wolves said: Robert is an incredibly sinful man. He literally possesses in a great amount and lives a life full of every one of the seven deadly sins. Gluttony, Sloth, Lust, Pride, Envy, Greed and Wrath. Yes, you understand why he was the way he was but that doesn't excuse the way he was. If he never became King and was just Lord of the Stormlands , he still would have ended up as the same kind of man. He was a bad person, a bad father, and a bad king. Just because there are worse people , that doesn't make him good. Envy and Greed isn’t one of Roberts trait. And you treat the seven sins as if they were bad traits to have. Its of Christian origin, created many centuries ago. Nowadays no one cares whether ur fat, proud, lazy, etc. Its part of our human traits. Since Westeros isnt a Christian society I dont see how the zealous of Westeros would see all these (although some like lust and greed they might) traits as a sin. These traits might even posses great things. Although its true that greed has been the result of many unethical situations. It also has an upside, a man driven by greed will be more determined to work harder in life. Even a slough person has an advantage. At my work one of the managers told me that he'd rather have a lazy person over an experienced worker for certain tasks, when I asked him why? He told me because a lazy person will find the easiest and simplest way to accomplish something. I see nothing wrong with possessing these traits, except for greed and envy since these are what makes me dislike a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 22 hours ago, corbon said: Look at the trip to visit Ned. 300 people. for several months.Thats enormously expensive. While english monarchs used to use such royal progresses as a financial tool - their hosts had to bear much of the costs - to keep some nobles checked, there aren't that many places to stay at through the the months travelling to Winterfell and back. Which means the corwn is bearing the costs. Apparently a three day visit by Elizabeth I and her court to Sir Thomas Egerton cost him the equivalent of around $10 million. So that $100million/month. He could have used a raven. Or even a much smaller party and taken a ship(s) to Whiteharbour. Kings in the past often would "ride circuit" because it helped bind the realm together. And Robert isn't just sending a message, he's seeing his foster brother who's been away for years and not only bringing him in as Hand but also arranging a marriage alliance between their children. And this is something Robert did once under unusual circumstances, not something that could explain the treasury being depleted. Quote I would agree that Littlefinger is probably making it considerably worse. But its Robert's wastefulness that gives him much of the opportunity. I agree that Robert's indifference to finance and the "careless" nature of his generosity gave Littlefinger cover. But a man with Robert's restrained ambitions and willingness to go along with the advice of his council (who have not been chosen specifically for their corruptibility) just isn't going to change things that much. Quote Yes. Because it was being hidden. But they were running out of time before it could stay hidden. Littlefinger was hiding it, and always managed to come up with any funds needed. I think it would have been revealed when he wasn't worried he'd suffer the backlash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Of Wolves Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 7 hours ago, The Young Maester said: Envy and Greed isn’t one of Roberts trait. And you treat the seven sins as if they were bad traits to have. Its of Christian origin, created many centuries ago. Nowadays no one cares whether ur fat, proud, lazy, etc. Its part of our human traits. Since Westeros isnt a Christian society I dont see how the zealous of Westeros would see all these (although some like lust and greed they might) traits as a sin. These traits might even posses great things. Although its true that greed has been the result of many unethical situations. It also has an upside, a man driven by greed will be more determined to work harder in life. Even a slough person has an advantage. At my work one of the managers told me that he'd rather have a lazy person over an experienced worker for certain tasks, when I asked him why? He told me because a lazy person will find the easiest and simplest way to accomplish something. I see nothing wrong with possessing these traits, except for greed and envy since these are what makes me dislike a person. He absolutely possesses envy. The entire time in the books he is wishing he had someone else's life. He envy's the life he had when he was younger. He envy's knights and warriors. It is understandable why he does but he practically has envy for everyone's life over his own. Greed is debatable with him. I think that the fact that he practically bankrupts the kingdom by throwing extremely lavish parties for his own enjoyment. I would definitely think that falls under greed. I was not trying to judge people. I myself am definitely not without sin. Very few people of this earth probably are. That doesn't change the fact that these sins are not a good thing to have. Even sins like sloth and gluttony that might not cause any harm to others, if one posses extreme levels of any one of these 7 sins, it would be extremely self destructive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 Robert was lovable, he was loved. It's not shown much in the text, but we're certainly told. Ned loves him to the end. Cersei says he was addicted to love, and went where he could find it - friends and whores. Whores seem to like him. Barra's mother speaks of him almost lovingly. Edric loves him. Mya loved him when as long as he was there. His bastard babies gurgled with happiness when he cuddled them. Stannis is envious of Robert's ability to attract the love and loyalty of allies and troops - he speaks of two lords defeated in battle who at the end of the day were feasting and socialising with their enemy Robert, and later ended up fighting on Robert's side and losing everything for him. ETA Maybe, just maybe Joff wanted to love him. Joff does nothing for anybody - but he did try to murder Bran for Robert's sake, we think. So sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Maester Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 On 4/16/2020 at 6:03 AM, House Of Wolves said: He absolutely possesses envy. The entire time in the books he is wishing he had someone else's life. He envy's the life he had when he was younger. He envy's knights and warriors. It is understandable why he does but he practically has envy for everyone's life over his own. I wouldnt call that envy, more like a desire to live a different life. He always thought of becoming a mercenary in Essos. And someone with envy would look at other knights or young warriors, and start disliking them just because they can’t have what they have. In no occasion have we seen him treat a young or prowess knight with disdain just because he envies that person. On 4/16/2020 at 6:03 AM, House Of Wolves said: Greed is debatable with him. I think that the fact that he practically bankrupts the kingdom by throwing extremely lavish parties for his own enjoyment. I would definitely think that falls under greed. A greedy person wouldnt spend money. Rather theyd avoid spending money on unnecessary things like luxury and feasts. Plus theyll always try to make more money. Robert couldve easily tried to increase the tax on his subjects, but he never did. And in different cases, someone whos greedy would live a luxurious life without a care in the world for their money, because theyd want be better than the other person that lives similarly. But Roberts only competitors in his eyes were the exiled Targaryens that ate scraps in the streets of bravos. On 4/16/2020 at 6:03 AM, House Of Wolves said: I was not trying to judge people. I myself am definitely not without sin. Very few people of this earth probably are. That doesn't change the fact that these sins are not a good thing to have. Even sins like sloth and gluttony that might not cause any harm to others, if one posses extreme levels of any one of these 7 sins, it would be extremely self destructive. Of course not, no harm done. You are right tho on the other traits Robert possess. But I still see nothing wrong with them. Although they might have their downside, even the opposite trait will have their downside. A Patient person would maybe be too patient in certain situations and would let things get out of hand. Wrath nothing wrong with having a temperament, we all do. Although is what leads to many conflicts, its still not a sin to be inpatient. Same for lustful, nothing wrong for enjoying yourself, although in Roberts world it would be very wrong unless it was with his own wife, which it wasnt. Proud, both in our world and asoiaf, being proud isnt a bad thing. And with him being fat and lazy, although for a king is bad to be lazy, it still isnt a horrible trait to possess. Same goes for being fat. Why shouldnt you enjoy eating well-made food? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 Robert was probably one of the worst kings Westeros ever had - for two reasons: 1. For beggaring the Realm. 2. For setting up Westeros to explode upon his death by allowing an unprecedented amount of factionalism taking root and dominating his court - we have two ambitious royal brothers who only in a position to grab power because of Robert, we have a queen whose family tries to dominate court and who loathes the Hand, we have a Hand who loathes the queen and her family, we have a king who failed to produce legitimate children and failed to realize that himself, we have a Master of Coin who is a bloody psychopath fueling the resentment of the various factions to his own end, we have a foreign eunuch who schemes to restore the old dynasty to their rightful place, we have a Lord Reaper of Pyke who yet lives and is still in charge of the Iron Islands, we have unresolved issues with Dorne and a King-beyond-the-Wall who is ignored by the Crown. That is Robert's legacy. It is the worst legacy any king since the Targaryen Conquest left. Only Robert's death resulted in a literal explosion of the Realm with multiple factions wreaking havoc. Sure, Robert could not have possibly foreseen all of that - it is hard to see the truth beneath Littlefinger and Varys' smiles, for example - but the ambitions of Stannis and Renly, the enmity between Stark and Lannister and the danger that posed while both houses had high places at court should have been obvious enough to him. And yet he did nothing to deal with that. Robert was also not really loved - he was popular in his youth and he could easily win friends among the nobility and stuff. But there is little indication that the common people anywhere in the Realm (still) loved King Robert by the time he had grown into the fat drunkard we meet. This seems to be also implied in Jon being underwhelmed by the great King Robert when he first sees - a fat guy hiding his chins beneath a beard simply isn't the kind of person to impress the young generation. And also not the older generation who never saw or met Robert while he was the young and dashing Lord of Storm's End. It is also very striking that Robert failed to preserve the alliance that put him on the throne - the Baratheons, Starks, Arryns, and Tullys were pretty close back during the Rebellion, but only Ned remained Robert's friend. Jon's wife and son are no friends of Robert's, Hoster and Edmure Tully are not close to the king, either, the king's brothers do not get along with the queen, and the queen and her family would prefer the king to be dead. The only thing that preserved Ned's feelings for Robert apparently was the fact that they didn't see each other for many years ... as soon as they interact again their friendship deteriorates quickly and all that's left in the end is Ned's memory of the man Robert was - the man he grew into isn't the kind of man Eddard Stark would befriend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Robert was probably one of the worst kings Westeros ever had - for two reasons: Not even close. 24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: 1. For beggaring the Realm. LF did it, albeit Robert's laziness and neglect gave him the opening. 25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: 2. For setting up Westeros to explode upon his death by allowing an unprecedented amount of factionalism taking root and dominating his court - we have two ambitious royal brothers who only in a position to grab power because of Robert, we have a queen whose family tries to dominate court and who loathes the Hand, we have a Hand who loathes the queen and her family, we have a king who failed to produce legitimate children and failed to realize that himself, we have a Master of Coin who is a bloody psychopath fueling the resentment of the various factions to his own end, we have a foreign eunuch who schemes to restore the old dynasty to their rightful place, we have a Lord Reaper of Pyke who yet lives and is still in charge of the Iron Islands, we have unresolved issues with Dorne and a King-beyond-the-Wall who is ignored by the Crown. Ludicrous. Robert did not set up anything, that's like saying that the Dance is Jaeharys fault because he had many children. Renly and Stannis are Robert's brothers and by strengthening their position he is strethening his and how it's Robert's fault that he did not have legit kings and how could've Robert know they weren't his kids, you make it sound incredibly easy, Robert did not pick LF, the Lord Reaper of Pyke can only rebel if there is turmoil... And Even Mance is Robert's fault?? 37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Sure, Robert could not have possibly foreseen all of that - it is hard to see the truth beneath Littlefinger and Varys' smiles, for example - but the ambitions of Stannis and Renly, the enmity between Stark and Lannister and the danger that posed while both houses had high places at court should have been obvious enough to him. And yet he did nothing to deal with that. Perhaps because Renly and Stannis were not ambitious and Ned did not act against the Lannisters or vice versa, not was any danger as long as he lived or the incest did not come out, which was the granade that blew up in everyone's hands. 40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Robert was also not really loved - he was popular in his youth and he could easily win friends among the nobility and stuff. But there is little indication that the common people anywhere in the Realm (still) loved King Robert by the time he had grown into the fat drunkard we meet. People in KL miss the good ol days and Bowen tells us that Robert was a loved king. 44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: It is also very striking that Robert failed to preserve the alliance that put him on the throne - the Baratheons, Starks, Arryns, and Tullys were pretty close back during the Rebellion, but only Ned remained Robert's friend. Jon's wife and son are no friends of Robert's, Hoster and Edmure Tully are not close to the king, either, the king's brothers do not get along with the queen, and the queen and her family would prefer the king to be dead. Jon's wife is a deranged woman and the kid... is a kid. Hoster and Edmure were loyal to the King, nor Hoster was close to Robert during the Robellion, and the Lannisters only married Robert to get the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 4 hours ago, frenin said: LF did it, albeit Robert's laziness and neglect gave him the opening. That is factually incorrect. For one, Littlefinger is Robert's servant and adviser, meaning Robert is responsible for putting him into power - all Littlefinger does is done in Robert's name, meaning Robert is responsible for all the plots and schemes his dear councilmen are doing. Second, Littlefinger was but brought in to stabilize the Crown's finances. He was a financial genius who could create revenues nobody else could ... something that was only necessary because of Robert Baratheon's disastrous spending habits and the inability and unwillingness of Littlefinger's predecessors and the other men around the king to help him see reason. As Littlefinger himself says - the Master of Coin finds the money, the king and the Hand spend it. Littlefinger doesn't decide what the king does with his own money. 4 hours ago, frenin said: Ludicrous. Robert did not set up anything, that's like saying that the Dance is Jaeharys fault because he had many children. No, it is like saying the Dance is the fault of Viserys I because he didn't resolve the issues between the Blacks and the Greens. And many people are saying that. In Robert's case those things are even more justified since Robert had no reason to believe the Lannisters and Starks would ever be friends once he was gone. They weren't part of a family, unlikely the children and other kin of Viserys I. He had a certain right to delude himself into believing his children would never kill each other. Robert has no right to assume Ned and Cersei/Tywin would ever work together. 4 hours ago, frenin said: Renly and Stannis are Robert's brothers and by strengthening their position he is strethening his and how it's Robert's fault that he did not have legit kings and how could've Robert know they weren't his kids, you make it sound incredibly easy, Robert did not pick LF, the Lord Reaper of Pyke can only rebel if there is turmoil... And Even Mance is Robert's fault?? Robert should have seen that his two brothers were nothing but ambitious pricks who would gladly kill his own children if it meant they could sit the throne. He didn't help his own dynasty by making them great lords, he destroyed it. If Stannis and Renly had been landless knights at Robert's court neither of them would have been in a position to make a successful bid for the Iron Throne. Balon Greyjoy should have beene executed, and the surviving Greyjoys should have been attainted. The Iron Islands should have gone to a loyal lord, best some non-Ironborn who would rule over them with an iron fist and ensure they lacked the means to become a nuisance in the future. And of course Robert is to be blamed for not being able to control and impregnate his own wife. Mance as such isn't Robert's fault but not doing anything about Mance certainly. The man didn't become king-beyond-the-Wall only yesterday. Robert would have had reports about him but he didn't care. Robert is pretty much the travesty of a king. He takes in the benefits but doesn't want to do the job. He is the only king we know of who didn't attend his own council sessions. His view of justice is a joke and his misrule shows clear traces of Tytos Lannister-like behavior. He just ignores things he doesn't want to see or deal with. The one thing he wants to be as king is ... no longer wanting to be the king. The one positive trait he had was not being a tyrant. But if you staff your government with plotters and her wife and son and other in-laws (and even your brothers) have severe issues with cruelty and 'hard justice' then the fact that you yourself aren't that ugly of a guy doesn't really matter much. 4 hours ago, frenin said: Jon's wife is a deranged woman and the kid... is a kid. Hoster and Edmure were loyal to the King, nor Hoster was close to Robert during the Robellion, and the Lannisters only married Robert to get the throne. Lysa should have been Robert's ally, instead he alienated her. Robert made enemies out of his friends. Hoster was pretty close to Robert during the war - he helped save his ass at Stoney Sept and he helped to seat him on the throne. But Robert did nothing to keep him or his children sweet. There were no marriages alliances there, no offices at court, no anything. It is just a fact that Robert left the worst legacy of any king since the Conquest. And he definitely ranks amongst the worst kings. Aegon IV and Maegor and Aegon II are definitely worse than Robert, but that's it. Even Aerys II has a full treasury and twenty years of peace and prosperity on his side. And he was only partially or no longer responsible for his actions due to his insanity whereas Robert was a sane man overseeing how his kingdoms marched towards civil war and destruction. Ned is flattering the dying Robert when he tells him he wasn't worse than Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: That is factually incorrect. For one, Littlefinger is Robert's servant and adviser, meaning Robert is responsible for putting him into power - all Littlefinger does is done in Robert's name, meaning Robert is responsible for all the plots and schemes his dear councilmen are doing. That is true, but that's not to say that people may not behaving incorrectly in his name. 16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Second, Littlefinger was but brought in to stabilize the Crown's finances. He was a financial genius who could create revenues nobody else could ... something that was only necessary because of Robert Baratheon's disastrous spending habits and the inability and unwillingness of Littlefinger's predecessors and the other men around the king to help him see reason. Ofc, LF was brought to balance Robert, not to rob from him. 30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: As Littlefinger himself says - the Master of Coin finds the money, the king and the Hand spend it. Littlefinger doesn't decide what the king does with his own money. And LF never lies as his counting book proves, Robert despises counting coppers, so he say what he wants and LF gives him what he wants, no one cares about how LF has earnt the money or how much has he taken in the middle of it. 33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: No, it is like saying the Dance is the fault of Viserys I because he didn't resolve the issues between the Blacks and the Greens. And many people are saying that. In Robert's case those things are even more justified since Robert had no reason to believe the Lannisters and Starks would ever be friends once he was gone. They weren't part of a family, unlikely the children and other kin of Viserys I. He had a certain right to delude himself into believing his children would never kill each other. Robert has no right to assume Ned and Cersei/Tywin would ever work together. Viserys had two very venomous factions whose enmity was plain even for the ambassadors who visted them, nothing on that happens in Robert's case. The Lannisters and Starks mutually disliked each other, that sentiment was stronger in Ned's case that the other way around, but they were never hostile to each to Robert's knowledge until Ned and Jaime fought in the streets on KL and after that Robert especifically order them to make peace. Robert has every right to assume that Cersei and Ned would work together, Tywin does not give a damn about Ned's feelings, nor has he ever showed contempt towards him or any kind of venom, and Joffrey was Robert's son and he knew that Ned would never harm him, if Ned does not touch the kids, there is no reason whatsoever for a fight. As it happened, things only go south once the twincest is exposed. 40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Robert should have seen that his two brothers were nothing but ambitious pricks who would gladly kill his own children if it meant they could sit the throne. He didn't help his own dynasty by making them great lords, he destroyed it. Except that they weren't, Stannis was loyal until the incest came up, just as Renly was loyal (he was content to give Ned the Realm after all) until it was quite literally him or Robert's children. 43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: If Stannis and Renly had been landless knights at Robert's court neither of them would have been in a position to make a successful bid for the Iron Throne. And had Maegor not been a Targ he would've never been to make a succesful bid for the Throne. The problem does not come because of his brothers but because of the incest. 46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Balon Greyjoy should have beene executed, and the surviving Greyjoys should have been attainted. The Iron Islands should have gone to a loyal lord, best some non-Ironborn who would rule over them with an iron fist and ensure they lacked the means to become a nuisance in the future. There is a reason why Aegon made the Ironborn chose a leader among themselves, ruling with an iron fist in a very unruly place will only going to ensure future chaos and revolts and unless Robert envisioned to send a fleet once every x years to put down revolts is a very bad idea. Best to show the Iron Islands how futile is attempting to rebel, take his son from Balon and then instal a loyal lord to the Iron Thron in the Seastone Chair. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: And of course Robert is to be blamed for not being able to control and impregnate his own wife. Because... 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Mance as such isn't Robert's fault but not doing anything about Mance certainly. The man didn't become king-beyond-the-Wall only yesterday. Robert would have had reports about him but he didn't care. When has Robert heard reports about Mance?? Why would he?? And why would he act when its entirely Ned's responsibility first and foremost. 55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Robert is pretty much the travesty of a king. He takes in the benefits but doesn't want to do the job. He is the only king we know of who didn't attend his own council sessions. His view of justice is a joke and his misrule shows clear traces of Tytos Lannister-like behavior. He just ignores things he doesn't want to see or deal with. The one thing he wants to be as king is ... no longer wanting to be the king. In fact, bar his terrible spending attitude, he is what every non apt king should be, if circumstances have put you in a throne and you know you're not fit to the task or simply you are not very much bothered with it, leave it to people you can know you can trust and try not to break anything. Robert stepped in when the situation was serious enough, a war, or when there was matters of state, what was to do with the Targlings. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: Lysa should have been Robert's ally, instead he alienated her. Robert made enemies out of his friends. Hoster was pretty close to Robert during the war - he helped save his ass at Stoney Sept and he helped to seat him on the throne. But Robert did nothing to keep him or his children sweet. There were no marriages alliances there, no offices at court, no anything. He didn't aliante Lysa tho, nor he alienated Hoster, Hoster was not pretty close to Robert during the war, he saved his ass at Stony Sept because he was bought in by Ned and old Jon, the same reason why he seat him at the throne, ofc bonding should be expected but there is nothing that tells us that their relationship deteriorated or Hoster came to resent him. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: It is just a fact that Robert left the worst legacy of any king since the Conquest. And he definitely ranks amongst the worst kings. Aegon IV and Maegor and Aegon II are definitely worse than Robert, but that's it. Even Aerys II has a full treasury and twenty years of peace and prosperity on his side. And he was only partially or no longer responsible for his actions due to his insanity whereas Robert was a sane man overseeing how his kingdoms marched towards civil war and destruction. Ned is flattering the dying Robert when he tells him he wasn't worse than Aerys. It is a fact to you i'm, comparing Robert to Aerys negatively is just ludicrous, so i will not even bother here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 1 hour ago, frenin said: That is true, but that's not to say that people may not behaving incorrectly in his name. Ofc, LF was brought to balance Robert, not to rob from him. And LF never lies as his counting book proves, Robert despises counting coppers, so he say what he wants and LF gives him what he wants, no one cares about how LF has earnt the money or how much has he taken in the middle of it. It is Robert's government. He is responsible for the actions of his officials. If they suck, he sucks, too. Even if we believe Littlefinger could pretend the Crown was broke when in fact it was making a lot of money that went straight to him - which isn't a fact at this point, although we can assume that Littlefinger embezzles the Crown to some degree - the Robert is still completely responsible for emptying the full treasury he inherited as well as for the deficit that resulted in bringing Littlefinger in. And that just makes him a bad king. 1 hour ago, frenin said: Viserys had two very venomous factions whose enmity was plain even for the ambassadors who visted them, nothing on that happens in Robert's case. The Lannisters and Starks mutually disliked each other, that sentiment was stronger in Ned's case that the other way around, but they were never hostile to each to Robert's knowledge until Ned and Jaime fought in the streets on KL and after that Robert especifically order them to make peace. Robert has every right to assume that Cersei and Ned would work together, Tywin does not give a damn about Ned's feelings, nor has he ever showed contempt towards him or any kind of venom, and Joffrey was Robert's son and he knew that Ned would never harm him, if Ned does not touch the kids, there is no reason whatsoever for a fight. As it happened, things only go south once the twincest is exposed. Anyone watching the Mycah-Arya affair would have noticed the same things those ambassadors noticed at the court of Viserys I. The same goes for them travelling separately thereafter. The same people would also caught up on the fact that the queen and the king's two brothers didn't get along with her, that Stannis was always making a fuzz about not getting Storm's End, that Renly openly mocked Prince Joffrey, etc. If you think Cersei and Ned would have ever worked together you are as smart as Robert was. True, Ned would have never harmed Joffrey and his siblings - regardless of the twincest - but it is quite clear that Cersei would have never suffered it that Ned would rule the kingdoms instead of her or her father. And Ned certainly would have been capable of harming - or executing - Jaime, Tywin, and Cersei. 1 hour ago, frenin said: Except that they weren't, Stannis was loyal until the incest came up, just as Renly was loyal (he was content to give Ned the Realm after all) until it was quite literally him or Robert's children. Stannis betrayed his royal brother while he was still alive by keeping the twincest to himself. Renly wanted to stage a coup while his royal brother was still alive and there was still a chance that the king might recover. That was treason, too. Not to mention that he suggested to take the future king, his mother and siblings prisoner. That's treason, too. But I don't even buy it that Renly wanted Ned to serve as regent. I think the point of his offer was to get his men close to Cersei and the children so he could kill them and seize the throne. I certainly can't prove that, but I simply don't buy it that Renly just happened to realize he might make a good king himself once Ned Stark rejected his coup idea. 1 hour ago, frenin said: And had Maegor not been a Targ he would've never been to make a succesful bid for the Throne. The problem does not come because of his brothers but because of the incest. No, the problem are the brothers. Renly doesn't know nor does he care about the twincest. He wants the throne, period. And Stannis just believes this story he has come up with himself and doesn't have proof. He should have kept his mouth shut and done his duty to his brother's legal children. If said brothers hadn't had the means to try to stage a successful rebellion - by being landless knights with no bannermen sworn to them - whatever attempts they could have made to challenge Joff would have been insignificant. They wouldn't have been able to plunge the Realm into a civil war. 1 hour ago, frenin said: There is a reason why Aegon made the Ironborn chose a leader among themselves, ruling with an iron fist in a very unruly place will only going to ensure future chaos and revolts and unless Robert envisioned to send a fleet once every x years to put down revolts is a very bad idea. Best to show the Iron Islands how futile is attempting to rebel, take his son from Balon and then instal a loyal lord to the Iron Thron in the Seastone Chair. That is just your opinion based on nothing in the text. We don't know why Aegon allowed the Ironborn to choose their own leader. Even if you were right ... guess what: Balon proved that Aegon was wrong. Balon Greyjoy - and by extension his troublesome family - cannot really be trusted. And if the new lord had burned all the Ironborn ships they simply wouldn't have been a threat afterwards. It is not that difficult to cripple the military capabilities of a bunch of small islands. 1 hour ago, frenin said: Because... Any man who doesn't know what his family are doing is just a moron. A king who cannot rule his own family cannot rule a kingdom. 1 hour ago, frenin said: When has Robert heard reports about Mance?? Why would he?? And why would he act when its entirely Ned's responsibility first and foremost. Because the Iron Throne gets reports from Castle Black? Robert could command Ned to put down Mance. He serves as Warden of the North in Robert's name. 1 hour ago, frenin said: In fact, bar his terrible spending attitude, he is what every non apt king should be, if circumstances have put you in a throne and you know you're not fit to the task or simply you are not very much bothered with it, leave it to people you can know you can trust and try not to break anything. Robert stepped in when the situation was serious enough, a war, or when there was matters of state, what was to do with the Targlings. LOL, you are yourself admitting that Robert sucked as king because he should have put men into office who do the ruling for him. If he had been a good king he would have been a capable man who could also partake in his own government. It goes without saying that good ruling also involves choosing the right men for high offices ... but Robert sucked there, too, as is made evident by the fact that scum like Varys, Littlefinger, and Pycelle are allowed to serve on his council and that Jaime Lannister was allowed to keep his cloak and life. Robert only did what he wanted to do ... he liked to fight, so he did that. But that doesn't make you a good or even mediocre king. How weak and fucked-up a king Robert was can be seen by the fact that Gregor Clegane got away with trying to murder Loras Tyrell in front of the king himself. 1 hour ago, frenin said: He didn't aliante Lysa tho, nor he alienated Hoster, Hoster was not pretty close to Robert during the war, he saved his ass at Stony Sept because he was bought in by Ned and old Jon, the same reason why he seat him at the throne, ofc bonding should be expected but there is nothing that tells us that their relationship deteriorated or Hoster came to resent him. Of course he alienated Lysa - first by trying to take her child, the new Lord Arryn, from her, and second by refusing to grant said child the hereditary title Warden of the East. Robert did not only insult Lysa and House Arryn, he insulted the entire Vale by that. And he spat on the memory of Jon Arryn, as Ned tried to point out to Robert. 1 hour ago, frenin said: It is a fact to you i'm, comparing Robert to Aerys negatively is just ludicrous, so i will not even bother here. Twenty years of peace and prosperity are Aerys II's achievement. Robert didn't achieve that. Burning a bunch of lords may be an ugly thing, but it is a trivial thing if you talk about an entire reign. Aerys II court and council included saner and more competent men than Robert's. Aerys II wasn't surrounded by scheming brothers, psychopaths, and Hands who were trying to get to blows with the queen's family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: It is Robert's government. He is responsible for the actions of his officials. If they suck, he sucks, too. On that much i agree. 31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Even if we believe Littlefinger could pretend the Crown was broke when in fact it was making a lot of money that went straight to him - which isn't a fact at this point, although we can assume that Littlefinger embezzles the Crown to some degree - the Robert is still completely responsible for emptying the full treasury he inherited as well as for the deficit that resulted in bringing Littlefinger in. And that just makes him a bad king. Spending money does not make someone in a bad King, as long as you don't beggar the Realm, you're demaning greenseer abilities here. 33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Anyone watching the Mycah-Arya affair would have noticed the same things those ambassadors noticed at the court of Viserys I. The same goes for them travelling separately thereafter. When you say anyone you mean you, they went separately and in KL there was no animosity, everyone minded their business until the dagger incident. Comparing that to the Dance when Viserys was forced to send Rhaenrya and co to Dragonstone so the bad blood might lower is far fetched. The Lannisters and the Starks didn't hate each other, the Greens and the Blacks ostensibly did. 36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The same people would also caught up on the fact that the queen and the king's two brothers didn't get along with her, that Stannis was always making a fuzz about not getting Storm's End, that Renly openly mocked Prince Joffrey, etc. There is a quite big difference between dislike and hate, like a sea wide of distance. Stannis and Renly don't need to get along with Cersei, Stannis made in a big fuzz about not getting Storm's End but settled and god help us if an uncle cannot tease his own nephew. The difference between dislike and hate is quite telling, Robb and Joffrey hated each other, Ned and Tywin disliked each other. But Ned and Tywin had no problems when the time came and they needed to fight together. 43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The same people would also caught up on the fact that the queen and the king's two brothers didn't get along with her, that Stannis was always making a fuzz about not getting Storm's End, that Renly openly mocked Prince Joffrey, etc. So you're making problems were there are any and then trying to make them appear obvious, it is quite clear for you that Cersei would rule the kingdoms instead of her and her father. The question is not whether Ned would've been capable of harming or executing Lannisters, the question is why would he if the Lannisters don't give him a reason. Now, ofc we know there are reasons that made a cooperation a burning bridge, old Jon's murder, the dagger and the twincest. But how can Robert made arrangaments based on info he is completely unaware of?? 52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Stannis betrayed his royal brother while he was still alive by keeping the twincest to himself. Renly wanted to stage a coup while his royal brother was still alive and there was still a chance that the king might recover. That was treason, too. Not to mention that he suggested to take the future king, his mother and siblings prisoner. That's treason, too. Sure Stannis did backstab Robert but the incest is what opens that can of worms... And your rant about Renly is ludicrous, Robert was about to die and Ned and Renly were in mortal danger. Renly was not interested in harming the children, he wanted to separate them from Cersei and put them into his custody, that's not treason. 58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: No, the problem are the brothers. Renly doesn't know nor does he care about the twincest. He wants the throne, period. And Stannis just believes this story he has come up with himself and doesn't have proof. He should have kept his mouth shut and done his duty to his brother's legal children. Renly wants the throne because he distrusts the Lannisters, as his statement to Ned proves, he was quite content to leave them under Ned's care as long as it was far away of the Lannisters, Stannis discovers the incest, until then he was completely loyal, not having proof is not the same as not knowing something. Stannis knows that his brother's legal children are not his brother's biological children. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: No, the problem are the brothers. Renly doesn't know nor does he care about the twincest. He wants the throne, period. And Stannis just believes this story he has come up with himself and doesn't have proof. He should have kept his mouth shut and done his duty to his brother's legal children. The Realm would have been plunge into a civil war regardless because of Joffrey and Tywin but as before, if Maegor weren't a Targ he could have never plunge the Realm into a civil war. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: That is just your opinion based on nothing in the text. We don't know why Aegon allowed the Ironborn to choose their own leader. Even if you were right ... guess what: Balon proved that Aegon was wrong. Balon Greyjoy - and by extension his troublesome family - cannot really be trusted. And if the new lord had burned all the Ironborn ships they simply wouldn't have been a threat afterwards. It is not that difficult to cripple the military capabilities of a bunch of small islands. No, we don't know why Aegon allowed the Ironbon to choose their own leader, we can make a guess give what we know of its people. The Ironborn have never been brought into the fold nor, bar Aegon, any king has ever made any intention of integrate them, it's only natural that the Ironborn see the Iron Throne as a yoke they must free themselves of, that's not Aegon's fault, not even Balon's. A new lord could burn their ships, that would not stop a revolt in each island tho, it would only fuel it. Reigning a la Maegor has very previsible consequences. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: Any man who doesn't know what his family are doing is just a moron. A king who cannot rule his own family cannot rule a kingdom. I'm very fond of your nonsense rantings. But no, Robert couldn't know it unless he suspected of something so obsecene to him as incest and had them very watched or if he kept the counting of his bastards. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: That is just your opinion based on nothing in the text. We don't know why Aegon allowed the Ironborn to choose their own leader. Even if you were right ... guess what: Balon proved that Aegon was wrong. Balon Greyjoy - and by extension his troublesome family - cannot really be trusted. And if the new lord had burned all the Ironborn ships they simply wouldn't have been a threat afterwards. It is not that difficult to cripple the military capabilities of a bunch of small islands. Did the Iron Throne ever get a report about Mance?? Did the Iron Throne ever get a report about a King beyond the wall?? Why would Robert tell Ned to get lost beyond the wall because a non existential threat that only will become a threat if Westeros were to collapse?? 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: LOL, you are yourself admitting that Robert sucked as king because he should have put men into office who do the ruling for him. If he had been a good king he would have been a capable man who could also partake in his own government. At all, if he were really to suck at king he would try to meddle in things he could not understand. Learning how to delegate or directly to delegate is key in ruling. Someone who does not know how to rule properly but tries to do it just because are rulers like Joffrey, Aerys or Cersei. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: It goes without saying that good ruling also involves choosing the right men for high offices ... but Robert sucked there, too, as is made evident by the fact that scum like Varys, Littlefinger, and Pycelle are allowed to serve on his council and that Jaime Lannister was allowed to keep his cloak and life. Doubtful, he appointed Ned and Jon Arryn and he let Stannis in too. And mind you, LF was Jon's appointment. Nor there was a reason to dismiss useful people like Varys or Pycelle. Mind you, Robert has a lot of flaws like his goverment but your determination to aim to everything is counterproductive. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: How weak and fucked-up a king Robert was can be seen by the fact that Gregor Clegane got away with trying to murder Loras Tyrell in front of the king himself. You have already had this discussion with me and with @FictionIsntReal before. There is nothing wrong in how Robert handled the matter, Gregor stopped as soon as Robert stepped in and there was no reason to pursue the thing any further, nor anyone claims that Robert was weak or wrong for letting it go. That's just your believe. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: It goes without saying that good ruling also involves choosing the right men for high offices ... but Robert sucked there, too, as is made evident by the fact that scum like Varys, Littlefinger, and Pycelle are allowed to serve on his council and that Jaime Lannister was allowed to keep his cloak and life. He didn't, Lysa acted on Lf's behalf, and everyone was quite right that Robin needed to get away from his mother, nor Lysa renege of Robert or something similar. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: Twenty years of peace and prosperity are Aerys II's achievement. Robert didn't achieve that. Burning a bunch of lords may be an ugly thing, but it is a trivial thing if you talk about an entire reign. It's not trivial, is the difference between success and spectacular failure. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: Aerys II court and council included saner and more competent men than Robert's. Aerys II wasn't surrounded by scheming brothers, psychopaths, and Hands who were trying to get to blows with the queen's family. Sure, only a Hand that dreamt with the day the King was dead, lickspittles and half the court was ready to betray him for his own son and his son planned to get rid of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 10 hours ago, Lord Varys said: For beggaring the Realm. I've discussed that elsewhere, so I won't reiterate here. Quote For setting up Westeros to explode upon his death by allowing an unprecedented amount of factionalism taking root and dominating his court - we have two ambitious royal brothers who only in a position to grab power because of Robert Stannis did not display much in the way of ambition prior to discovering the twincest. Renly doesn't appear to have been doing anything as Master of Laws (admittedly, GRRM still hasn't explained what that position entails), instead channeling his ambitions through a plan to make Margaery into Robert's mistress. And he doesn't even need a castle to do that. Quote we have a queen whose family tries to dominate court and who loathes the Hand Tywin remained off in Casterly Rock, even if he was lending money. There were no Lannisters on the Small Council, instead they were in court as squires. And yes, Robert wasn't expecting them to murder him because he didn't know about the twincest. And I don't think Tywin had that much of an opinion about Jon Arryn or Ned. Quote we have a Hand who loathes the queen and her family Jon Arryn didn't when he suggested the marriage alliance, and Ned Stark might have had a low opinion of them but the real split came because of Lysa's letter after Bran's fall, the assassination attempt and then discovering the twincest. None of which you could expect any king to foresee (except a magically omniscient one). Quote we have a king who failed to produce legitimate children and failed to realize that himself He knew he had three children, including two sons. Incest is considered an abomination by everyone other than Targaryens, so it's understandable he didn't consider that possibility. Quote we have a Master of Coin who is a bloody psychopath fueling the resentment of the various factions to his own end I think Littlefinger is more of a sociopath, but I will agree Robert should have had SOME reason to regard him as shady for resisting Arryn's attempts to replace a corrupt official like Janos Slynt. The full extent of what he was up to were beyond even Varys. Quote we have a foreign eunuch who schemes to restore the old dynasty to their rightful place As far as anyone could tell, Varys was a quite competent Master of Whisperers. As a eunuch and foreigner, he had no familial attachments that would pose a conflict of interest. And he actually did want to keep Robert alive, tipping Ned off that Cersei was angling for his death. Quote we have a Lord Reaper of Pyke who yet lives and is still in charge of the Iron Islands I'll agree with you there, though I also hold every previous king responsible for not getting rid of the Ironborn. I think in real life the greenlanders would have exterminated them as soon as they were capable of doing so. Quote we have unresolved issues with Dorne Jon Arryn had apparently pacified them, so they hadn't made trouble. Quote and a King-beyond-the-Wall who is ignored by the Crown The King's authority really only extends up to the Wall, and Mance's kingship appears to be a recent issue which wasn't pressing yet. Quote That is Robert's legacy. It is the worst legacy any king since the Targaryen Conquest left. No, Maegor's is far worse. Jaehaerys & Alysanne were able to put the realm back together, but a lot of that is implausible and none of it was any thanks to Maegor's legacy. Quote Only Robert's death resulted in a literal explosion of the Realm with multiple factions wreaking havoc. Maegor fought not only his relatives, but also the Faith. When the Dance occurred, the Greyjoys decided to raid rather than actually ally with anybody and the Vulture King also had incursions. Quote the enmity between Stark and Lannister Wasn't really a problem but for Littlefinger framing them and Ned discovering the twincest. Quote and the danger that posed while both houses had high places at court should have been obvious enough to him. And yet he did nothing to deal with that Not nearly as negligent as Viserys prior to the Dance re-instating a Hand he had previously removed for insisting on changing the succession, and he arguably wasn't even the member of the Small Council most openly hostile to Viserys' chosen heir. Quote This seems to be also implied in Jon being underwhelmed by the great King Robert when he first sees - a fat guy hiding his chins beneath a beard simply isn't the kind of person to impress the young generation An underwhelming overweight king is a piddling complaint. Robert was able to unite the realm when he needed to, as in the Greyjoys rebellion. Quote It is also very striking that Robert failed to preserve the alliance that put him on the throne - the Baratheons, Starks, Arryns, and Tullys were pretty close back during the Rebellion, but only Ned remained Robert's friend. I think Jon Arryn remained his friend, while Hoster wasn't actually his friend in the first place and joined the marriage alliance later. Robert attempted his own marriage alliance via his son and Ned's daughter, but he didn't know Joffrey was illegitimate. Quote Jon's wife and son are no friends of Robert's It was Hoster who alienated his daughter, who was in love with Littlefinger. Robert had nothing to do with their marital troubles and tried to look after Jon's son after his death (Ned would regard fostering him with Tywin as terrible, but it would have been prestigious and helped to further bind together the realm, and it turns out getting him away from his mother and Littlefinger actually would have been better). Sweetrobin is too young to have any relevant relationship with Robert, and at any rate he doesn't rule. Quote Hoster and Edmure Tully are not close to the king, either That doesn't appear to be at all different from how things were earlier. Quote the king's brothers do not get along with the queen Few people do. Quote and the queen and her family would prefer the king to be dead Cersei and Jaime do, I don't think Tyrion and Tywin did as well. 4 hours ago, Lord Varys said: That is factually incorrect. For one, Littlefinger is Robert's servant and adviser, meaning Robert is responsible for putting him into power - all Littlefinger does is done in Robert's name, meaning Robert is responsible for all the plots and schemes his dear councilmen are doing. It's rather much to hold him responsible for "all the plots and schemes". He's not omniscient, and that's not what we expect of a king. Robert can be blamed for not paying attention to what Littlefinger was doing to the realm's finances, but poisonig Jon Arryn and blaming the Lannisters is another thing entirely. Quote Second, Littlefinger was but brought in to stabilize the Crown's finances We don't hear anything about the finances being unstable prior to his arrival. Jon Arryn simply noticed that he'd been successful after Lysa persuaded him to appoint him to a position in Gulltown, so he got promoted. Quote He was a financial genius who could create revenues nobody else could ... something that was only necessary because of Robert Baratheon's disastrous spending habits A financial genius who can increase revenues sounds like a good idea under any king, and we don't hear anything about such a necessity preceding his appointment. Quote and the inability and unwillingness of Littlefinger's predecessors and the other men around the king to help him see reason. An unwillingness to listen to his advisors is not one of Robert's characteristics, as Robert seems aware others are wiser than him. He claimed the throne not because he wanted it, but because his allies insisted he had the best claim. He didn't want to marry, but Jon Arryn persuaded him it was necessary to create stability. It was also Jon Arryn who told him it was unneccessary to take any action against the Targaryen exiles, and who convinced him to appoint Littlefinger. When Cersei tries to use reverse psychology to get Robert to fight in the melee, Ned and Barristan are able to get him to back down (without telling him the Lannisters are trying to kill him). Quote As Littlefinger himself says - the Master of Coin finds the money, the king and the Hand spend it. Littlefinger doesn't decide what the king does with his own money. Yes, he does. Littlefinger is lending it out as "investments" so that the dragons can multiply. Robert and Jon Arryn aren't directing those. Quote No, it is like saying the Dance is the fault of Viserys I because he didn't resolve the issues between the Blacks and the Greens Those issues were more foreseeable. Robert had every reason to expect that Joffrey's inheritance would be without issue (even if he might make a lousy king), as nobody had said anything against it. Other people in the Dance bear culpability (I think most of them were lousy), but he has his own share, and it's significant. Quote And many people are saying that. Who? Quote In Robert's case those things are even more justified since Robert had no reason to believe the Lannisters and Starks would ever be friends once he was gone He didn't need them to be "friends", he needed them to be partners in a ruling coalition. As they had been during the Greyjoy rebellion. Quote They weren't part of a family Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister were to share descendants under Robert's plan. Quote He had a certain right to delude himself into believing his children would never kill each other One of Rhaenyra's children had stabbed a son of Viserys in the eye, and Rhaenyra wanted to torture kids for questioning her bastards' paternity. The half-siblings had to be separated from each other to prevent further conflict. The unorthodox choice of Rhaenyra as heir had been suggested by Otto Hightower precisely to keep Daemon away from the throne, and his dubious reputation had only grown by the time he married Rhaenyra (before Viserys could do anything about it). Nothing like that had happened inside Robert's coalition. Quote Robert has no right to assume Ned and Cersei/Tywin would ever work together Ned and Tywin HAD worked together during the Greyjoy rebellion. And I don't think Robert expected Cersei to "work" much with Ned, instead he would rule as regent until Joffrey came of age. Quote Robert should have seen that his two brothers were nothing but ambitious pricks who would gladly kill his own children if it meant they could sit the throne There's no evidence Stannis would have done anything of the sort if not for the twincest (which would have been sufficient reason for anyone, including Robert, to kill them). Even Renly was merely advocating that Ned seize them away from Cersei. Quote Balon Greyjoy should have beene executed, and the surviving Greyjoys should have been attainted. The Iron Islands should have gone to a loyal lord, best some non-Ironborn who would rule over them with an iron fist and ensure they lacked the means to become a nuisance in the future. I agree, but think that would have required that the subjects there weren't Ironborn either. If there's just a small number of greenlanders, the Ironborn would simply kill them at an opportune time. Quote And of course Robert is to be blamed for not being able to control and impregnate his own wife. He can't be expected to be with her all the time, and even if he'd insisted on raping her rather than letting her jerk him off, it seems she got an abortion if Robert impregnated her. Like I said, twincest was too a priori implausible for Robert to have considered it. Quote Mance as such isn't Robert's fault but not doing anything about Mance certainly. The man didn't become king-beyond-the-Wall only yesterday. Robert would have had reports about him but he didn't care. The Watch seems to have little awareness of what's happening beyond the Wall. The ranging in the prolugue results in only a deserter surviving, who doesn't inform his black brothers and appears to be raving without useful information. Mance hadn't actually threatened the Wall when Robert died, and Ned was just thinking of him as someone he might have to deal with in the future. Quote He is the only king we know of who didn't attend his own council sessions Aerys I appears to have been similarly hands-off, letting Bloodraven (a far worse Hand than Jon Arryn) run things. He was still a better king than Aerys II, who should have just let Tywin run things but was jealous of his competence and insisted on screwing things up. Quote His view of justice is a joke Because he said he and Ned should each discipline their own children? Quote and his misrule shows clear traces of Tytos Lannister Tytos let his vassals revolt without doing anything, which is precisely what Robert didn't do during the Greyjoy rebellion. Nor did Robert let any mistress of his near the seat of power. Quote and her wife What woman has a wife in Westeros? Quote and son and other in-laws (and even your brothers) have severe issues with cruelty and 'hard justice' What issues are you referring to? Quote Lysa should have been Robert's ally, instead he alienated her Lysa was nutty, and Littlefinger's pawn. No king would have had a functional relationship with her, because Littlefinger wants to destabilize things. Quote Robert made enemies out of his friends Name one friend turned enemy. Robert was instead famous for turning his enemies on the battlefield into friends. Aerys was the one who needlessly made an enemy of his Hand. Quote Hoster was pretty close to Robert during the war - he helped save his ass at Stoney Sept and he helped to seat him on the throne. But Robert did nothing to keep him or his children sweet. That's insufficient to demonstrate that he was "close", only that he agreed to an alliance. And it's just Lysa who is a problem, for reasons I already mentioned. Quote There were no marriages alliances there, no offices at court, no anything. Do we get any indication that Hoster wanted those things? Plus, the marriage alliance between Joffrey and Sansa would have meant that Hoster would have descendants in the royal line. Quote Aegon IV and Maegor and Aegon II are definitely worse than Robert, but that's it Aegon II was better than Aerys II. He was brought in to an existing conflict and had lousy instincts, but tended to listen to his advisors when they recommended something smarter. Unlike Aerys II, who caused problems where none existed. There's a reason Tyrion's trios of terrible kings have included Maegor the Cruel, Aegon the Unworthy, Aerys the Mad and "Baelor the Befuddled" but not Aegon II. Quote Even Aerys II has a full treasury and twenty years of peace and prosperity on his side He had years of peace and prosperity under Tywin, which he decided to sabotage, and then he plunged the realm into a civil war that finally destroyed his dynasty through his insanity. Robert had peace (with the brief exception of the Greyjoy rebellion) and prosperity which only fell apart with his death. Quote And he was only partially or no longer responsible for his actions due to his insanity Oh, so he's a better king BECAUSE he's insane! Quote whereas Robert was a sane man overseeing how his kingdoms marched towards civil war and destruction Is the destruction a separate issue from the civil war? Quote Ned is flattering the dying Robert when he tells him he wasn't worse than Aerys. Everyone but you realizes Aerys' only competition for worst king is amongst predecessors like Maegor. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: the deficit that resulted in bringing Littlefinger in. There's nothing in the text to indicate that any such thing existed. Quote Anyone watching the Mycah-Arya affair would have noticed the same things those ambassadors noticed at the court of Viserys I. The same goes for them travelling separately thereafter. It was a dispute between children, in which Joffrey got bit by a direwolf but wasn't seriously injured. Robert got rid of the remaining direwolf, and since Sansa still seemed eager to marry Joffrey (while Arya would presumably be married off to someone else) he didn't think there would be trouble in the future. A far cry from Aemond losing an eye and one set of relations accusing the others of being bastards. Quote The same people would also caught up on the fact that the queen and the king's two brothers didn't get along with her The question was not whether they would get along with her, but whether they would support her children with Robert. Since he didn't know about the twincest, Robert expected them to serve just as they had under him. Quote that Stannis was always making a fuzz about not getting Storm's End Always? He was unhappy about it, but what indication do we get that he repeatedly brought this up while Robert was alive? Quote that Renly openly mocked Prince Joffrey Renly mocks everybody. Quote True, Ned would have never harmed Joffrey and his siblings - regardless of the twincest - but it is quite clear that Cersei would have never suffered it that Ned would rule the kingdoms instead of her or her father Absent the coup Littlefinger enlisted the goldcloaks in (and with the help of Renly and Stannis both being absent), I don't think she'd have much choice. Quote Stannis betrayed his royal brother while he was still alive by keeping the twincest to himself. I've discussed this before, but I'm quoting it just because it humorously contradicts something you wrote later. And he didn't keep it to himself: he told Jon Arryn so they could bring it to Robert without it looking like just a means of Stannis making himself heir. Quote Renly wanted to stage a coup while his royal brother was still alive and there was still a chance that the king might recover They knew the king wasn't going to recover. The whole point of the coup was to prevent Cersei from having any power, not to do anything against Robert. Quote That was treason, too. Not to mention that he suggested to take the future king, his mother and siblings prisoner. That's treason, too. Ned was regent. It would be considered shady for him to seize the heir from the Dowager Queen, but not treasonous. And Renly's plan wasn't to lock Joffrey up in a dungeon, but to put him under someone else's control. Quote But I don't even buy it that Renly wanted Ned to serve as regent. I think the point of his offer was to get his men close to Cersei and the children so he could kill them and seize the throne. Was he going to have to fight Ned too? Quote I certainly can't prove that, but I simply don't buy it that Renly just happened to realize he might make a good king himself once Ned Stark rejected his coup idea. Renly was planning on being a power behind the throne via his alliance with the Tyrells while Robert was alive. He certainyl wasn't going to try to seize the throne from Margaery's children with Robert. If Ned had joined with him, then Renly could be an integral part of a ruling coalition. But he knows his prospects will be dimmer under Stannis. Quote No, the problem are the brothers. Renly doesn't know nor does he care about the twincest. He wants the throne, period. His plan to replace Cersei with Margaery doesn't really make sense without the twincest, and it wouldn't have gotten Renly the throne. Quote And Stannis just believes this story he has come up with himself and doesn't have proof. I don't know why you bother to argue that, since Bran saw them, Cersei admitted it and the Lannister POV chapters all back it up. They don't think Stannis came up with it himself, in Pycelle's words "he knew". Quote He should have kept his mouth shut and done his duty to his brother's legal children. This is the humorous contrasting statement I mentioned. He should have shut up and committed what our Lord Varys calls treason! Quote Even if you were right ... guess what: Balon proved that Aegon was wrong. Not just Balon, but all the Ironborn leaders who resumed raiding before him. Quote It is not that difficult to cripple the military capabilities of a bunch of small islands. I agree, but if you want an enduring solution rather than repeatedly crippling them, you'll want to remove the Ironborn from those islands. Quote Any man who doesn't know what his family are doing is just a moron. Aerys doesn't know what Rhaegar is up to: moron. Jon Arryn doesn't know what Lysa is up to: moron. Viserys I doesn't know that Otto and Alicent will continue to oppose Rhaenyra after his death, and that Alicent's children still view their cousins as bastards who can't inherit: moron. I suppose since Catelyn is a woman she's immune to such charges regarding Ned and Jon Snow. Quote It goes without saying that good ruling also involves choosing the right men for high offices ... but Robert sucked there, too, as is made evident by the fact that scum like Varys, Littlefinger, and Pycelle are allowed to serve on his council and that Jaime Lannister was allowed to keep his cloak and life. I'll grant you Jaime Lannister, but the others didn't have such serious marks known against them. Quote Of course he alienated Lysa - first by trying to take her child, the new Lord Arryn, from her Fostering children is normal among westerosi nobility. Lysa is being atypical, like Doran's Essosi wife. Quote and second by refusing to grant said child the hereditary title Warden of the East A child can't be Warden. Quote Robert did not only insult Lysa and House Arryn Who in House Arryn? Quote he insulted the entire Vale by that They probably would have preferred a Valeman as Warden, but not Sweetrobin. Quote And he spat on the memory of Jon Arryn, as Ned tried to point out to Robert. Jon Arryn was trying to get his son fostered away from Lysa, so Robert was actually trying to continue that (and strengthen an alliance with Tywin that Jon Arryn had encouraged). Quote Twenty years of peace and prosperity are Aerys II's achievement Aerys didn't "achieve" that. Tywin provided the competence, and Aerys screwed it up. Quote Aerys II court and council included saner and more competent men than Robert's Weren't you earlier blaming Robert for including "scum like Varys [...] and Pycelle"? Aerys got rid of a competent Hand like Tywin to replace him with an incompetent lickspittle. He exiled two Hands after Tywin, burned a third, and the last one was going to set off wildfire in King's Landing. Cersei considers adding a pyromancer to her small council, requiring Jaime (hardly politically minded) to tell her how terrible that is. Quote Aerys II wasn't surrounded by scheming brothers, psychopaths, and Hands who were trying to get to blows with the queen's family. Aerys didn't have any surviving brothers, but he provided the psychopathy and hostility to family himself. 12 minutes ago, frenin said: The Ironborn have never been brought into the fold nor, bar Aegon, any king has ever made any intention of integrate them, it's only natural that the Ironborn see the Iron Throne as a yoke they must free themselves of, that's not Aegon's fault, not even Balon's. Are you referring to Aegon II's offer of alliance, which was answered like Robb's? Or when the Golden Company tried to ally with them, only to get backstabbed? I think the problem is that they refuse to be partners in an alliance. Quote A new lord could burn their ships, that would not stop a revolt in each island tho, it would only fuel it. Reigning a la Maegor has very previsible consequences. It's infeasible to rule like Maegor over the entire realm, but the Iron Islands are small enough and hated by everyone else that a king could get away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 8 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Are you referring to Aegon II's offer of alliance, which was answered like Robb's? Or when the Golden Company tried to ally with them, only to get backstabbed? I think the problem is that they refuse to be partners in an alliance. Now, i'm meaning exactly that, the Ironborn are only searched when there is war and people start eyeing those sweet longships, the rest of the time they are just outright ignored, ofc that when war cames they are just looking for them. Compare the interest and efforts Jaeharys put to try and win over the North with the nonexisten efforts ot do the same in the isles, we're told a lot about his royal progresses and yet he didn't step a foot in the Iron Islands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 On 4/20/2020 at 2:18 AM, frenin said: On that much i agree. Then there is nothing further to discuss, is there? Quote Spending money does not make someone in a bad King, as long as you don't beggar the Realm, you're demaning greenseer abilities here. Robert beggared the Realm. Quote When you say anyone you mean you, they went separately and in KL there was no animosity, everyone minded their business until the dagger incident. Comparing that to the Dance when Viserys was forced to send Rhaenrya and co to Dragonstone so the bad blood might lower is far fetched. The Lannisters and the Starks didn't hate each other, the Greens and the Blacks ostensibly did. Apples and oranges. The Blacks and Greens were a thing for twenty years, longer than Robert reigned. But it is quite clear that Robert's reign was equally rotten. Not to mention that Viserys I - unlike Robert - actually cared about the people around him. He hated dissension - Rhaenyra and Alicent were separated because the king did not want their children to quarrel. Robert doesn't give a damn whether his children and those of Ned Stark quarrel. Quote There is a quite big difference between dislike and hate, like a sea wide of distance. Stannis and Renly don't need to get along with Cersei, Stannis made in a big fuzz about not getting Storm's End but settled and god help us if an uncle cannot tease his own nephew. The difference between dislike and hate is quite telling, Robb and Joffrey hated each other, Ned and Tywin disliked each other. But Ned and Tywin had no problems when the time came and they needed to fight together. LOL, you are pathetic in your defenses there. A lord mocking the Crown Prince in front of king and court is no small affair - even Robert realized that by having Renly leave the hall. Cersei definitely hated Renly and Stannis ... she wanted to destroy and/or kill them, as you should know. Stannis also wants to kill his sister-in-law, of course, to avenge a guy she didn't kill, and so on. Renly likely also wanted to kill her, but we don't really know. Quote So you're making problems were there are any and then trying to make them appear obvious, it is quite clear for you that Cersei would rule the kingdoms instead of her and her father. The question is not whether Ned would've been capable of harming or executing Lannisters, the question is why would he if the Lannisters don't give him a reason. Now, ofc we know there are reasons that made a cooperation a burning bridge, old Jon's murder, the dagger and the twincest. But how can Robert made arrangaments based on info he is completely unaware of?? By realizing that Ned and Cersei/Jaime don't get along and by siding completely with one side and destroying the other. Or by at least firing Ned and sending him back to Winterfell to freeze there. His kingdom would have greatly profited from as simple a thing as that. A good king would have done that. But then, a good king would have never been in as shitty a position as to make Ned his Hand. Quote Sure Stannis did backstab Robert but the incest is what opens that can of worms... And your rant about Renly is ludicrous, Robert was about to die and Ned and Renly were in mortal danger. Renly was not interested in harming the children, he wanted to separate them from Cersei and put them into his custody, that's not treason. Good that you know the mind of a lying character. But you are, as usual, wrong about your assessment there. Robert was still alive and still the king. Neither Ned nor Renly had any right to stage a coup then - which Ned made perfectly clear in the books. This was treason. Quote Renly wants the throne because he distrusts the Lannisters, as his statement to Ned proves, he was quite content to leave them under Ned's care as long as it was far away of the Lannisters, Stannis discovers the incest, until then he was completely loyal, not having proof is not the same as not knowing something. Stannis knows that his brother's legal children are not his brother's biological children. Good again that you know the mind of a lying character. I don't trust Renly's words on what he wanted to do. But even if you are right - he was still a traitor to Robert and Joffrey and, hell, even Stannis. Quote The Realm would have been plunge into a civil war regardless because of Joffrey and Tywin but as before, if Maegor weren't a Targ he could have never plunge the Realm into a civil war. Which is why I also said repeatedly Aegon should have left orders to kill Visenya and Maegor after his death because they were not to be trusted, either. The Conqueror shares part of the blame for Maegor's usurpation. You are just deflecting. It is Robert's fault that his brothers could help plunge the Realm into civil war - just as it is his fault that Ned, Cersei, and Balon were in such a position. Quote No, we don't know why Aegon allowed the Ironbon to choose their own leader, we can make a guess give what we know of its people. The Ironborn have never been brought into the fold nor, bar Aegon, any king has ever made any intention of integrate them, it's only natural that the Ironborn see the Iron Throne as a yoke they must free themselves of, that's not Aegon's fault, not even Balon's. A new lord could burn their ships, that would not stop a revolt in each island tho, it would only fuel it. Reigning a la Maegor has very previsible consequences. That's just nonsense since that's the case for all the other kingdoms but the Riverlands by the time of the Conquest. It could have helped greatly to break the Ironborn and teach them some manners if a non-Ironborn had ruled them since the Conquest. Quote I'm very fond of your nonsense rantings. But no, Robert couldn't know it unless he suspected of something so obsecene to him as incest and had them very watched or if he kept the counting of his bastards. Well, according to you 'Stannis knew' so it shouldn't have been that difficult to figure it out, right? By the way: How did Stannis 'know' this? The books have him rant about it but he never offered any proof. Pointing to black-haired bastards proves nothing. And Stannis the Moron even makes very specific claims - namely, that Jaime is the father of the children. How does he know that? Couldn't Cersei have a different lover even if Robert were not the father? Do Cersei's children really need another golden-haired prick to be their father to 'explain' their looks? I don't think so. Quote Did the Iron Throne ever get a report about Mance?? Did the Iron Throne ever get a report about a King beyond the wall?? Why would Robert tell Ned to get lost beyond the wall because a non existential threat that only will become a threat if Westeros were to collapse?? Because the kings-beyond-the-Wall have been rather dire threats to the Realm in the past? And of course Robert knew about Mance - if nobody wrote him a letter about that (completely unlikely) then Ned would have told him when he came to Winterfell. Benjen Stark was there, too, if you have read the books. Quote At all, if he were really to suck at king he would try to meddle in things he could not understand. Learning how to delegate or directly to delegate is key in ruling. Someone who does not know how to rule properly but tries to do it just because are rulers like Joffrey, Aerys or Cersei. LOL, sure, delegate things to the likes of Varys, Littlefinger, and Pycelle. Great idea. What a great king and delegator Robert was. Quote Doubtful, he appointed Ned and Jon Arryn and he let Stannis in too. And mind you, LF was Jon's appointment. Nor there was a reason to dismiss useful people like Varys or Pycelle. Robert appointed Littlefinger. Robert appointed all his council men. Littlefinger may have been Jon's suggestion, but Robert appointed him. There was ample reason to execute or dismiss Varys and Pycelle. They were Targaryen men originally, and involved in the Mad King's crimes. Pycelle is happens to be the toady of Robert's wife and a traitor, and Varys is possibly the worst of them all, having his own shady agenda. Quote Mind you, Robert has a lot of flaws like his goverment but your determination to aim to everything is counterproductive. I'm perfectly happy with my view of Robert the Shithead, thank you very much. The man just sucked, period. Quote You have already had this discussion with me and with @FictionIsntReal before. There is nothing wrong in how Robert handled the matter, Gregor stopped as soon as Robert stepped in and there was no reason to pursue the thing any further, nor anyone claims that Robert was weak or wrong for letting it go. That's just your believe. It is of course my assessment - just as it is also my assessment that Robert sucked. Take it or leave it. But it is quite clear that no Targaryen king would have let such a thing happen in his presence and allow the perpetrator to live. Well, perhaps Aenys, but you get the overall meaning. Quote He didn't, Lysa acted on Lf's behalf, and everyone was quite right that Robin needed to get away from his mother, nor Lysa renege of Robert or something similar. This is irrelevant. Robert was led around the nose by Cersei. He was giving Robert's title to fucking Jaime and he antagonized Lysa and the Vale over this. Lysa wouldn't have run back to the Eyrie if Robert hadn't tried to take her child from her. This was not something Littlefinger had her do. Quote It's not trivial, is the difference between success and spectacular failure. Who cares about the end of a reign when judging it? Did Nixon suck when dealing with China just because he was nearly impeached and had to resign? If you look at a reign you have to look at the entirety, not just some minor things that spiraled out of control. Aerys II plunged the Realm into a civil war and still had a full treasury when the war was over and he a corpse. Robert gave the Realm a war with the Iron Islands and an empty treasury and the most devastating war Westeros has seen to this point. That is Robert's legacy. And it sucks. Really, really hard. The man could have been worse, but not by very much. Quote Sure, only a Hand that dreamt with the day the King was dead, lickspittles and half the court was ready to betray him for his own son and his son planned to get rid of him. That didn't really affect the smooth running of the government, did it? The treasury was full and the common people were happy under the so-called Mad King. Some courtiers and noblemen died, but who gives a shit about that? The king wasn't running around rounding up the people in the country to burn them, was he? It was, of course, largely Tywin's doing that Aerys II was such a successful monarch. But even there Aerys II was a better judge of character than Robert - because neither of Robert's Hands were as efficient a Hand as Tywin, nor was Robert as, well, lazy a king as Aerys II seems to have been ... he beggared the Crown. But Aerys II did no such thing ... not even after Tywin was gone and Aerys II had a war to fight and lose. The Mad King knew how to delegate, Robert didn't. Robert wasn't even competent enough to name his own council - Pycelle, Varys, and Selmy he inherited from Aerys II. The Mad King was a better delegator in the grave then Robert was ever in life. And Renly and Stannis? What did they do to deserve a seat on the council? That was just nepotism plain and simple. Stannis may have earned a seat on the council after the Greyjoy Rebellion (we don't know when he got it, of course). But Renly wasn't even twenty when he was entrusted with matters of state. That's just a joke when you keep in mind that the man cared more about riding in tourneys than sitting on the council. If Robert had cared to appoint good men he should have taken at least a page out of the book of Jaehaerys I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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