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In defense of the King.


Helman Corbray

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Robert was not a good man.  He condoned the murder of Elia and her children.  Ned had to keep Jon's identity hidden, because Robert would have killed him.  He warned Cersei to flee because he knew that Robert would kill her children, once the truth of their parentage was known.  He sought to murder Daenerys.  He neglected all of his natural children, other than Edric Storm.  He beat and raped his wife.

Nor was he a good king.  He was lazy and spendthrift, and allowed the Lannisters far too much power at court.

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I'm going to be very quick since i've lost my previous post.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert beggared the Realm.

By allowing LF go wild yep.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Apples and oranges. The Blacks and Greens were a thing for twenty years, longer than Robert reigned. But it is quite clear that Robert's reign was equally rotten.

Not to mention that Viserys I - unlike Robert - actually cared about the people around him. He hated dissension - Rhaenyra and Alicent were separated because the king did not want their children to quarrel. Robert doesn't give a damn whether his children and those of Ned Stark quarrel.

Apples to apples, you're the one bringing it up. It's only clear for you that it's equally rotten.

Sure, Viserys saw how bad the situation was and had to separate them, the same does not apply to Robert's case since the kids could behave.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, you are pathetic in your defenses there. A lord mocking the Crown Prince in front of king and court is no small affair - even Robert realized that by having Renly leave the hall.

Cersei definitely hated Renly and Stannis ... she wanted to destroy and/or kill them, as you should know. Stannis also wants to kill his sister-in-law, of course, to avenge a guy she didn't kill, and so on. Renly likely also wanted to kill her, but we don't really know.

I suppose that is no small afair, that's why we see people been outrage by it... Ofc that does not happen, so it is an irrelevant affair.

 

Sure Cersei wanted to kill them and Stannis wanted to kill her for the twincest and Renly wanted her out of power.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

By realizing that Ned and Cersei/Jaime don't get along and by siding completely with one side and destroying the other. Or by at least firing Ned and sending him back to Winterfell to freeze there. His kingdom would have greatly profited from as simple a thing as that.

A good king would have done that. But then, a good king would have never been in as shitty a position as to make Ned his Hand.

Your solution for everthying it seems, going on a killing spree. Not getting along is not a goood reason, not by a longshot, to alienate your allies. And Ned was a good choice as Hand.

Sure, Jon Arryn's death was completely shitty.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Good that you know the mind of a lying character.

But you are, as usual, wrong about your assessment there. Robert was still alive and still the king. Neither Ned nor Renly had any right to stage a coup then - which Ned made perfectly clear in the books. This was treason.

Ned never says that it's treason, he says that it's dishonorable, nor what Renly asked was treason.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Good that you know the mind of a lying character.

But you are, as usual, wrong about your assessment there. Robert was still alive and still the king. Neither Ned nor Renly had any right to stage a coup then - which Ned made perfectly clear in the books. This was treason.

Ofc, Renly had priorities, his survival came first.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Which is why I also said repeatedly Aegon should have left orders to kill Visenya and Maegor after his death because they were not to be trusted, either. The Conqueror shares part of the blame for Maegor's usurpation.

You are just deflecting. It is Robert's fault that his brothers could help plunge the Realm into civil war - just as it is his fault that Ned, Cersei, and Balon were in such a position.

Wow, i was not deflecting, just try to show you how absurd was your view but little did i know that you have already doubled the bet.

No, neither Robert nor Aegon are guilty of the actions of those they let behind, especially if they don't show signs of betrayal, as any of them did.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Which is why I also said repeatedly Aegon should have left orders to kill Visenya and Maegor after his death because they were not to be trusted, either. The Conqueror shares part of the blame for Maegor's usurpation.

You are just deflecting. It is Robert's fault that his brothers could help plunge the Realm into civil war - just as it is his fault that Ned, Cersei, and Balon were in such a position.

What's the case for all the other kingdoms by the time of the conquest?? 

I doubt what manners would they learn, that's just would've radicalized them even more.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, according to you 'Stannis knew' so it shouldn't have been that difficult to figure it out, right? By the way: How did Stannis 'know' this? The books have him rant about it but he never offered any proof. Pointing to black-haired bastards proves nothing. And Stannis the Moron even makes very specific claims - namely, that Jaime is the father of the children. How does he know that? Couldn't Cersei have a different lover even if Robert were not the father? Do Cersei's children really need another golden-haired prick to be their father to 'explain' their looks?

I don't think so.

Sure it was, otherwise Cersei and Jaime would be long dead, the fact that Stannis figured it out does not mean thst it was easy to to do.

We are told how Stannis came to the conclussion and yes, it was by pointing out black haired bastards and reading some books,  we're not told however how did the incest but since Pycelle knows that Jon Arryn knew, is safe to bet that they fighured it out.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because the kings-beyond-the-Wall have been rather dire threats to the Realm in the past?

And of course Robert knew about Mance - if nobody wrote him a letter about that (completely unlikely) then Ned would have told him when he came to Winterfell. Benjen Stark was there, too, if you have read the books.

Don't be absurd, none of the Kings beyond the wall have seen Winterfell with an army, the Skagosi have been more of a challenge "to the Realm".

I know that you have read the books, that's why i'm not going to ask you a quote nor ask you why Mance does not mention that.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because the kings-beyond-the-Wall have been rather dire threats to the Realm in the past?

And of course Robert knew about Mance - if nobody wrote him a letter about that (completely unlikely) then Ned would have told him when he came to Winterfell. Benjen Stark was there, too, if you have read the books.

More like Jon Arryn and Ned.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There was ample reason to execute or dismiss Varys and Pycelle. They were Targaryen men originally, and involved the Mad King's crimes. Pycelle is happens to be the toady of Robert's wife and a traitor, and Varys is possibly the worst of them all, having his own shady agenda.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There was ample reason to execute or dismiss Varys and Pycelle. They were Targaryen men originally, and involved the Mad King's crimes. Pycelle is happens to be the toady of Robert's wife and a traitor, and Varys is possibly the worst of them all, having his own shady agenda.

They were Targ men and were pardoned and as far as loyal knew, they served loyally, i know what they've done. How Robert is going to know that?? Telepathy again??

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There was ample reason to execute or dismiss Varys and Pycelle. They were Targaryen men originally, and involved the Mad King's crimes. Pycelle is happens to be the toady of Robert's wife and a traitor, and Varys is possibly the worst of them all, having his own shady agenda.

Oh def leaving it, since we know that no one faults Robert for not having done more or for not applying an invented rule, this doesn't make much sense.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is irrelevant. Robert was led around the nose by Cersei. He was giving Robert's title to fucking Jaime and he antagonized Lysa and the Vale over this.

Lysa wouldn't have run back to the Eyrie if Robert hadn't tried to take her child from her. This was not something Littlefinger had her do.

He didn't antogonize the Vale over that, they were angered, that's all.

And ofc that Lysa was running away, she killed Jon Arryn and she was not hanging around, besides, she can't send ravens from the Red Keep.

 

 

I had a rather long wall for the nonsense of Aerys but honestly, if you hate Robert so much you want to dellude yourself, starting by saying that yes he killed dudes who cares, well ok. Others may indulge you with it.

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18 hours ago, frenin said:

Now, i'm meaning exactly that, the Ironborn are only searched when there is war and people start eyeing those sweet longships, the rest of the time they are just outright ignored, ofc that when war cames they are just looking for them. Compare the interest and efforts Jaeharys put to try and win over the North with the nonexisten efforts ot do the same in the isles, we're told a lot about his royal progresses and yet he didn't step a foot in the Iron Islands. 

Why would people want to befriend them outside of war when the Ironborn are such terrible allies and have no interest in anything other than raiding?

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention that Viserys I - unlike Robert - actually cared about the people around him. He hated dissension - Rhaenyra and Alicent were separated because the king did not want their children to quarrel. Robert doesn't give a damn whether his children and those of Ned Stark quarrel.

If Viserys had wanted to avoid conflict between half-siblings he could have avoided remarriage in the first place, or arranged a betrothal between the two sides. Robert actually did arrange one between Joffrey and Sansa. Arya's issues with Joffrey would not be that important.

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LOL, you are pathetic in your defenses there. A lord mocking the Crown Prince in front of king and court is no small affair - even Robert realized that by having Renly leave the hall.

It's rude, and Renly was treated accordingly. It's a far cry from a crown prince LOSING HIS EYE and the heir being accused of treasonously presenting bastards as legitimate children.

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Cersei definitely hated Renly and Stannis ... she wanted to destroy and/or kill them, as you should know. Stannis also wants to kill his sister-in-law, of course, to avenge a guy she didn't kill, and so on.

He thinks she's behind the deaths of Jon, Robert and Ned. He gets one out of three, although we could also add that Pycelle sent away Arryn's maester when he saw that Cersei wanted him dead.

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Renly likely also wanted to kill her, but we don't really know.

The plan that he proposed makes it sound like she would have effectively been taken hostage.

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By realizing that Ned and Cersei/Jaime don't get along and by siding completely with one side and destroying the other.

Going around destroying the highest born nobility in the land is something a king wants to avoid. Robert is actually acting responsibly when he tells Ned to have his wife release Tyrion, since as far as he knew that was the inciting cause of the trouble (rather than Bran's fall and attempted assassination).

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Or by at least firing Ned and sending him back to Winterfell to freeze there.

The king needs a good Hand, and Ned is genuinely trying to help the realm. He's one of the few people Varys finds trustworthy. Perhaps Robert should have appointed Stannis instead (I'm not sure who would replace him as Master of Ships), but after he leaves I don't know who a better candidate for Hand would be.

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A good king would have done that. But then, a good king would have never been in as shitty a position as to make Ned his Hand.

Robert is to blame for Jon Arryn's death?

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But you are, as usual, wrong about your assessment there. Robert was still alive and still the king. Neither Ned nor Renly had any right to stage a coup then - which Ned made perfectly clear in the books. This was treason.

Robert knew he was done, which is why he had a will made and named Ned as regent. Anybody who saw the king's wounds was astounded he lived even that long.

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Good again that you know the mind of a lying character. I don't trust Renly's words on what he wanted to do. But even if you are right - he was still a traitor to Robert and Joffrey and, hell, even Stannis.

His plan was to ally with Robert's named regent, which isn't treason to Robert. Getting Joffrey away from Cersei may not have been an item in Robert's will, but it's hardly something Robert would have disapproved of since he thinks Cersei is a bad influence on Joffrey. And the betrayal of Stannis came later when Renly declared himself king ahead of Stannis.

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That's just nonsense since that's the case for all the other kingdoms but the Riverlands by the time of the Conquest. It could have helped greatly to break the Ironborn and teach them some manners if a non-Ironborn had ruled them since the Conquest.

I don't think a non-Ironborn would be able to "rule" them for long.

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Well, according to you 'Stannis knew' so it shouldn't have been that difficult to figure it out, right?

We don't know how Stannis knew. Varys implies someone might have told him, but it's unclear. Jon Arryn seems to have come up with Mendelian genetics in order to be sure of it, which is a lot to ask of a Westerosi.

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And Stannis the Moron even makes very specific claims - namely, that Jaime is the father of the children.

It's strange for you to call him "the Moron" when Jaime and Cersei have both confirmed he was right about just that.

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Do Cersei's children really need another golden-haired prick to be their father to 'explain' their looks?

The Baratheons seem to have two copies of a dominant gene for black hair, while Lannisters have the recessive blonde hair, so there would need to be another carrier of that to explain things. Of course, this is all GRRM's fantasy genetics.

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Because the kings-beyond-the-Wall have been rather dire threats to the Realm in the past?

Have been sometimes, which doesn't mean always. Ned wasn't thinking of him as an imminent threat and doesn't give much thought to sending out anybody to deal with him in the near term.

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Robert appointed Littlefinger. Robert appointed all his council men. Littlefinger may have been Jon's suggestion, but Robert appointed him.

I'll grant you Littlefinger, whom Robert appointed at Jon Arryn's recommendation. But it's actually not supposed to be up to the king to appoint the Grand Maester, but instead the Citadel, as Pycelle explains (although he oddly brings up the example of  Aegon II killing Gerardys, without noting that Gerardys was never appointed Grand Maester by the Citadel). There's also an inherently limited selection for Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. I think there might be an informal norm for the most senior to be LC.

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There was ample reason to execute or dismiss Varys and Pycelle. They were Targaryen men originally, and involved the Mad King's crimes.

What "involvement in his crimes" did they have? Jaime remembers Rossart collaborating with the king to burn people with wildfire, but not Varys or Pycelle.

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Pycelle is happens to be the toady of Robert's wife and a traitor, and Varys is possibly the worst of them all, having his own shady agenda.

Those were not things Robert knew, since he hadn't read A Song of Ice and Fire.

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But it is quite clear that no Targaryen king would have let such a thing happen in his presence and allow the perpetrator to live. Well, perhaps Aenys, but you get the overall meaning.

I think Baelor might have been as ineffectual as Aenys.

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Lysa wouldn't have run back to the Eyrie if Robert hadn't tried to take her child from her. This was not something Littlefinger had her do.

I don't think Lysa staying in King's Landing would be helpful to anyone.

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Who cares about the end of reign when judging it?

Haven't you been judging Robert for what happened AFTER he died?

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Aerys II plunged the Realm into a civil war [...] Robert gave the Realm a war with the Iron Islands

Aerys needlessly caused the war by murdering a bunch of nobles without trial and demanding more heads. Robert did nothing to cause the Greyjoy rebellion and quickly put it down.

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the most devastating war Westeros has seen to this point

I don't know about that, dragons can cause a whole lot of damage.

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hat didn't really affect the smooth running of the government, did it?

Yes, it did. Aerys would reverse Tywin's measures just so Tywin could be blamed. Aerys' hatred of Tywin's competence is about as counter-productive as it gets.

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Some courtiers and noblemen died, but who gives a shit about that?

Enough people to overthrow the Targaryens.

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But even there Aerys II was a better judge of character than Robert - because neither of Robert's Hands were as efficient a Hand as Tywin

Jon Arryn seems to have been comparable, and unlike Aerys Robert didn't hate him for that and get rid of him! Ned Stark wasn't prepared for the position, but if he'd come on at a more peaceful time he could have learned to wield the actual powers of the position effectively.

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nor was Robert as, well, lazy a king as Aerys II seems to have been

Robert was WAY lazier. Aerys repeatedly came up with "grand schemes" that went nowhere. You can't point to anything comparable to Robert, who just didn't care for the responsibilities of power. Robert didn't reverse Jon Arryn's decisions just to spite him for his competence.

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The Mad King knew how to delegate

Reversing your subordinate's decision so that you can blame them for your own action is not "delegating".

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Robert wasn't even competent enough to name his own council - Pycelle, Varys, and Selmy he inherited from Aerys II.

As already noted, the Grand Maester is chosen by the Citadel rather than the king (which is part of why Pycelle tried to minimize conflict between the Aerys and Rhaegar factions at court). And Selmy was actually inherited from Jaehaerys II, although he wasn't named Lord Commander until Robert.

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The Mad King was a better delegator in the grave then Robert was ever in life.

He went through five Hands in a couple years. I don't want to get into contemporary politics, but if a person has to keep dismissing their most important appointment, it suggests they're not very good at delegating (or prone to shifting blame).

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Stannis may have earned a seat on the council after the Greyjoy Rebellion (we don't know when he got it, of course).

Even before then he had withstood the siege of Storm's End, then put together a navy to capture Dragonstone (the latter being more relevant to the specific position of Master of Ships, but the former shows general competence and loyalty). I'll agree with you on Renly, but we also STILL don't know the duties of the Master of Laws.

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If Robert had cared to appoint good man he should have taken at least a page out of the book of Jaehaerys I.

How, specifically?

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17 hours ago, SeanF said:

Ned had to keep Jon's identity hidden, because Robert would have killed him.

Jon would have been at risk with any other king (like Stannis or Renly) provided he still served as a potential rival.

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He warned Cersei to flee because he knew that Robert would kill her children, once the truth of their parentage was known

Catelyn thinks anybody would have done so, since the products of incest are regarded as abomination (which we see in what people say of Gilly's child).

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He sought to murder Daenerys

As did most members of the council, because she'd just acquired a Dothraki khalasar intended to invade Westeros.

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He neglected all of his natural children

He did try to bring Mya to court one time, but Cersei threatened to have her killed.

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1 minute ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why would people want to befriend them outside of war when the Ironborn are such terrible allies and have no interest in anything other than raiding?

People?? i don't know, the crown should have a interest on them tho, they should have to  try and bring them to the fold. As they did with every single other kingdom. 

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This is a completely pointless discussion. I don't care about how one can invent excuses for Robert nor do I intend to 'view his side of the story' or put myself in his shoes. I only judge his reign and his style of government relative to other styles (both other kings and other lords about who we have some data). And he just sucks there, period.

As king Robert is the one responsible for his government, family, and court. He is the one who gets the praise when everything works well, and he is the one history judges for the corrupt, lazy, and incompetent fool that he was.

It is laughable to exonerate Robert by pointing to the schemes of people Robert married or raised to high office - Robert is responsible for Cersei and Jaime fucking (because he married Cersei and pardoned Jaime), Robert is responsible for Renly's scheming because he tolerated the man at his court, Robert is responsible for everything Littlefinger and Slynt did, because he appointed them to high office and allowed them to retain those offices, Robert is responsble for keeping Varys and Pycelle around, etc. If Robert's own people fool and deceive Robert - people Robert married, pardoned, or appointed to high office - then he is to be blamed for that, period. There is no defense against that.

People defending Robert are like CEOs blaming their mid-tier management and workers for the way things turned out for the company. The CEO is in charge, he is to blame. And so is Robert.

While it is true that Robert had no clue about the depths of the depravity at his court he had a pretty good picture of the quality of the people around him as he himself admitted:

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Robert looked off into the darkness, for a moment as melancholy as a Stark. "I swear to you, sitting a throne is a thousand times harder than winning one. Laws are a tedious business and counting coppers is worse. And the people … there is no end of them. I sit on that damnable iron chair and listen to them complain until my mind is numb and my ass is raw. They all want something, money or land or justice. The lies they tell … and my lords and ladies are no better. I am surrounded by flatterers and fools. It can drive a man to madness, Ned. Half of them don't dare tell me the truth, and the other half can't find it. There are nights I wish we had lost at the Trident. Ah, no, not truly, but …"

Those are the words of a man who should cleanse his court of those fools and flatterers, but Robert made no attempt to do so. In his opinion Stannis, Renly, Pycelle, Varys, Littlefinger, and Barristan are not good advisers. He either doesn't trust them, or he believes they are not good at their jobs. Yet he doesn't replace them with competent men he can trust. And when he calls Ned to court he doesn't give him free rein like Aerys I and Aerys II did Bloodraven and Tywin, no, Ned has to fight both the king and his council if he wants to implement reasonable policies. This is Robert deliberately fueling factionalism at his court and not trying to end it.

The example of Varys shows Robert's approach to government pretty much. The man is a foreign eunuch and a former Targaryen man - all traits a man like Robert despises. Yet the reason he is neither executed nor dismissed is that he is 'useful'. This means the sole reason Varys is still around is that Robert was too lazy to replace him, to lazy to find a man who could do Varys' job more or less as well as Varys himself.

This is Robert's assessment of his dear wife the queen and his son and heir:

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"Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that's what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?"

Yet Robert the Fool himself listens to Cersei's whispers more often than not - when he decided to take Robert Arryn from his mother to give him to Casterly Rock (as a hostage to be killed by Lord Tywin should Lysa ever talk about the twincest to Robert), when he chose to make Cersei's cousins his squires, when he agreed to name Jaime Warden of the East, when he agreed to make a thug like Sandor Clegane the sworn shield of his heir, etc. For a man not trusting the queen and being wary about the influence she wielded over the Crown Prince Robert did nothing to keep the boy away from his mother and take him under his own wing, nor did he do anything to prevent Cersei from influencing government by influencing him.

Not to mention that if Robert was wary of Joffrey as his heir he could have disinherited him. He was the king, and there are means to ensure that an eldest son does not succeed his father. If Robert had cared about his kingdom he would have considered them. Instead he did nothing, as usual.

And Robert's brothers are just traitors, plain and simple. Renly conspired against the queen and Robert himself while he was on his deathbed. Stannis kept 'the truth' about the twincest from Robert, effectively stole the royal fleet and abandoned Robert and Ned to their deaths by removing himself to Dragonstone - not because he was afraid for his life but because Robert had decided to name Ned his Hand and not Stannis.

The Realm would have thrived if Robert's brothers had been scullions in the kitchen rather than arrogant and entitled great lords in their own right.

The schemes of Pycelle, Varys, and Littlefinger are more difficult to see through, but Pycelle and Varys should have never been on the council in the first place, and a man giving a fig about his own government would have seen through Littlefinger's machinations easily enough - Tyrion could do it, too.

For all that Robert is directly responsible, either by closing his eyes or by being too stupid to know what was going on around him. Robert would have likely been crushed as a king if the twincest had come out while he was alive because the entire Realm would have ridiculed this cuckold who was fooled by his wife and her brother. How impotent and fucked-up must a man be if his wife cheats on him with her own brother?

The author shows us Robert's corruption on a symbolic level, too. The great warrior of the Rebellion grew into a fat, lazy, and incompetent drunkard with the charisma of a fat, lazy, and incompetent drunkard. This is the description we get of this ruin of a man and travesty of a king:

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Yet the huge man at the head of the column, flanked by two knights in the snow-white cloaks of the Kingsguard, seemed almost a stranger to Ned … until he vaulted off the back of his warhorse with a familiar roar, and crushed him in a bone-crunching hug. “Ned! Ah, but it is good to see that frozen face of yours,” The king looked him over top to bottom, and laughed. “You have not changed at all.”

Would that Ned had been able to say the same. Fifteen years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm’s End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden’s fantasy. Six and a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men, and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his House, he became a veritable giant. He’d had a giant’s strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift. In those days, the smell of leather and blood had clung to him like perfume.

Now it was perfume that clung to him like perfume, and he had a girth to match his height. Ned had last seen the king nine years before during Balon Greyjoy’s rebellion, when the stag and the direwolf had joined to end the pretensions of the self-proclaimed King of the Iron Islands. Since the night they had stood side by side in Greyjoy’s fallen stronghold, where Robert had accepted the rebel lord’s surrender and Ned had taken his son Theon as hostage and ward, the king had gained at least eight stone. A beard as coarse and black as iron wire covered his jaw to hide his double chin and the sag of the royal jowls, but nothing could hide his stomach or the dark circles under his eyes.

When Jon Snow sees him first this is how describes this guy:

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Next had come King Robert himself, with Lady Stark on his arm. The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups.

There is nothing left of Robert Baratheon but the empty shell of a drunkard whose only 'friends' are the flatterers and fools who surround him because he is the king and can grant favors and offices and power. The days when Robert could make friends out of enemies or defeat anyone of note in battle are long gone. The man cannot even walk down into the crypts of Winterfell without getting short of breath.

And it is not that Robert's flaws wouldn't have been evident to his friends and companions back then. Making this man a king was a terrible idea by the rebel leaders. Half the lords of the Realm would have made finer kings than Robert. They are nearly as guilty for the fucked-up state of the Realm as Robert is.

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On 4/14/2020 at 7:56 PM, corbon said:

Thats one war every 50 years.
 

Robert only ruled for about 15, and he had one war, even if you don't count the mess he left when he died.
Thats 3x worse than the Targaryens.

I think the Realm would do fine if it faced the winter right now, before they traveled north. Harvests seemed plentiful and everyone was doing ok (If not by Littlefinger and Lysa doing schemes).

The one in dept was Robert himself. The Lords had a great deal of autonomy, and it's not like he would force them to borrow money. 

If a peasant in his tough life still love the king, there is probably not much wrong going on.

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On 4/15/2020 at 10:04 AM, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

He could have stepped aside and done right thing, let King Viserys III have his kingdom back.

Don't you think the hot-head Viserys, (or at least a loyal hand) would just... Kill him right after he left, as punishment for starting a rebellion and killing his father? It's not wise to let your mortal foe to leave.

That's why Napoleon struggled so hard in the last coalition. The Austrians survived and further enhanced the allies with 200k troops at Leipzig.

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On 4/19/2020 at 7:37 PM, Lord Varys said:

Any man who doesn't know what his family are doing is just a moron

It was actually very common to marry out of duty in the middle ages. Men usually spent years in campaign and saw their wives once in the marriage, and than died in some war. Being away from a person you dislike but trust because... well it's your wife, it's completely fine by medieval standards. 

Look to Alexander. He made a baby, died and never saw little Alex being born. 

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4 minutes ago, Helman Corbray said:

It was actually very common to marry out of duty in the middle ages. Men usually spent years in campaign and saw their wives once in the marriage, and than died in some war. Being away from a person you dislike but trust because... well it's your wife, it's completely fine by medieval standards. 

Look to Alexander. He made a baby, died and never saw little Alex being born. 

Sure, but the general view is that a man who cannot rule his family or wife cannot rule a kingdom, either. If you own family defy or disobey you this reflects badly on you ... and Robert is an extreme case of that, with his wife, brother-in-law, and two brothers both defying/betraying him.

Vice versa, Robert himself was occasionally more loyal to his childhood friend Ned than his own wife and in-laws which is also a bad trait. Not punishing Ned after he admitted to having commanded Cat to arrest Tyrion reflects very badly on him. That's like Robb shrugging and doing nothing when he learns about Tywin attacking the Tullys and his father being imprisoned.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That's like Robb shrugging and doing nothing when he learns about Tywin attacking the Tullys and his father being imprisoned

Most people today can't even cook. Robb was a brave boy, but he saw a fire roasting precious books in Winterfell, his uncle going MIA, a brother going legless and almost gutted in front of him, and two sisters lost to the enemy.

He was almost alone in the Castle, and was responsible for taking care of two kids, harvests, the whole North, the wildlings who were running amock, and worst, his mother was in the middle of a battlefield. 

I lost touch with the subject, sorry, but Robb is my favorite character. He is like Henry V.

 

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1 hour ago, Helman Corbray said:

Most people today can't even cook. Robb was a brave boy, but he saw a fire roasting precious books in Winterfell, his uncle going MIA, a brother going legless and almost gutted in front of him, and two sisters lost to the enemy.

He was almost alone in the Castle, and was responsible for taking care of two kids, harvests, the whole North, the wildlings who were running amock, and worst, his mother was in the middle of a battlefield. 

I lost touch with the subject, sorry, but Robb is my favorite character. He is like Henry V.

 

How is he like Henry V? Henry was actually a King, rather than a pretender, who ruled for over a decade and claimed victory over his enemies.

Henry was a pretty good diplomat, able to appease the Welsh rebels, which made them stop supporting the rebel Prince Owain. Robb was an awful diplomat, he achieved very little as a result of it. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but the general view is that a man who cannot rule his family or wife cannot rule a kingdom, either. If you own family defy or disobey you this reflects badly on you ... and Robert is an extreme case of that, with his wife, brother-in-law, and two brothers both defying/betraying him.

 

This view is highly flawed.

Tywin can't control any of his kids, Tygett and Gerion also had a very stormy relationship with their elder brother and Genna also did not enjoy his company. And even then, Tywin is potrait as the best and more pragmatic ruler in Westeros. Nepotism is natural in a feudal society and what Robert did, by giving power to his brothers and friends is the expected behaviour.

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19 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

This view is highly flawed.

Tywin can't control any of his kids, Tygett and Gerion also had a very stormy relationship with their elder brother and Genna also did not enjoy his company. And even then, Tywin is potrait as the best and more pragmatic ruler in Westeros. Nepotism is natural in a feudal society and what Robert did, by giving power to his brothers and friends is the expected behaviour.

Tywin did control his family (aside from, perhaps, his wife, but it also does reflect badly on him that he may have been ruled by her). What Joanna was for Tywin was Cersei for Robert ... and that's not a good thing. Men should rule their women in this world, not the other way around.

I've little issue with kings putting their family on their council ... if they are competent and do agree with your policies. But this just isn't the case for Renly and Stannis. Robert didn't get any advice from Stannis he could work with, not to mention that he seems to have seen his position on the council as stepping stone to succeed Jon Arryn as Hand, and Renly was using his position at court plot against the queen.

The problem with Stannis and Renly is not only the fact that they were on the council, but also that they received great lordships in their own right, making them very powerful and potential pretenders to the throne. This would have been a mistake in any case (after all, even if Renly and Stannis were loyal to Robert and his children, who is to say Renly's or Stannis' successors as Lord of Dragonstone or Lord of Storm's End would be loyal to his royal Baratheon cousin...), but it worse still in light of the fact that Robert himself didn't think highly of his two brothers nor did he get along with them all that well.

You can compare that to Alysanne and Aemon sitting on Jaehaerys I's council - they were there because they could offer valuable advice and because the king was training his son to succeed him one day. Aerys I chose Bloodraven as Hand because he was competent and he trusted him to do a good job, the same is true for Viserys II serving his brother and nephews.

A great king chooses competent family he can trust to help him rule, not just any family. That is what separates a good king from Robert Baratheon.

Frankly, the more I think about Robert's reign the more I'm tempted to move him near the very bottom of the list.

The sole redeeming quality he has is that he wasn't a tyrant and didn't have any personal cruel tendencies ... but that isn't all that much considering he ignored the cruel things done by the people around him. But he didn't throw the kingdom into chaos deliberately and didn't do shit like Daeron I's Conquest of Dorne or Maegor's pointless crusades against the smallfolk or Aegon II's travesty of justice when he burned hundreds of people alive in KL.

Thus I'd say he was better than Aegon IV, better than Maegor, better than Aegon II. But that's it. Everybody else was much better than Robert, including the Mad King (who gave the kingdom peace and plenty for twenty and left a full treasury after a pretty short civil war). Robert's reign is marred by his misrule which set up the most devastating civil war in Westerosi history so far. And unlike Viserys I - who may have simply been unable to imagine that his children and wife and brother would try to kill each other when he died - we do have it from Robert's own words that he thinks his heir is unsuited to rule, his wife would make a lousy regent, and all his advisers - including his two brothers - aren't worth anything. And yet he still worked with them. He is pretty much doing my work for me.

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12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Thus I'd say he was better than Aegon IV, better than Maegor, better than Aegon II. But that's it. Everybody else was much better than Robert, including the Mad King (who gave the kingdom peace and plenty for twenty and left a full treasury after a pretty short civil war). Robert's reign is marred by his misrule which set up the most devastating civil war in Westerosi history so far. And unlike Viserys I - who may have simply been unable to imagine that his children and wife and brother would try to kill each other when he died - we do have it from Robert's own words that he thinks his heir is unsuited to rule, his wife would make a lousy regent, and all his advisers - including his two brothers - aren't worth anything. And yet he still worked with them. He is pretty much doing my work for me.

The kings of the IT that GRRM gave us have a really bad record, Robert, as bad as he was, is average compared to the lot.

Aenys was very weak and almost lost the throne.

Maegor was too cruel.

Viserys I allowed the realm to fall into civil war for a issue he created naming a heir against the tradition, and this disaster weakened his house for years.

Aegor II, you said better than I could.

Daeron I pushed the realm into a pointless war that costed 60k lifes and was fruitless.

Aegon IV was the worst of the lot.

Aerys II was mad.

Personally I put Robert above all the previous, and Maekar can be a better king than Robert, but he was for sure less successful, as he failed to put down the Peak uprising, while Robert stomped Balon's revolt with easy.

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

The kings of the IT that GRRM gave us have a really bad record, Robert, as bad as he was, is average compared to the lot.

Aenys was very weak and almost lost the throne.

Maegor was too cruel.

Viserys I allowed the realm to fall into civil war for a issue he created naming a heir against the tradition, and this disaster weakened his house for years.

Aegor II, you said better than I could.

Daeron I pushed the realm into a pointless war that costed 60k lifes and was fruitless.

Aegon IV was the worst of the lot.

Aerys II was mad.

Personally I put Robert above all the previous, and Maekar can be a better king than Robert, but he was for sure less successful, as he failed to put down the Peak uprising, while Robert stomped Balon's revolt with easy.

Robert is to be blamed for Balon's second rebellion as well as every filthy thing Euron and Victarion do in the future. He had the chance to put them all down and he failed to do it.

And of course also for the first one ... he defeated Balon, yes, but he didn't have the strength to prevent Balon from rising against him, did he? This underlines his weakness not his strength - the Mad King had to turn into a tyrant actually attacking some of the greatest house in the Realm to trigger a rebellion. All Robert needed to do was nothing.

He beggared the Crown and set the Realm up for the most devastating war of Westeros. Everything that happened in ASoIaF so far goes directly back to Robert's weakness and incompetence. He could have put down the Targaryens in exile, he could have dealt with Mance, he could have put the Lannisters and his brothers into place, he could have ensured the Starks and Arryns would behave.

The one thing he couldn't have done anything about are the Others ... but they didn't really do much at this point, did they?

If you blame Viserys I for the Dance - which is silly since there is no direct evidence that the man actually saw what his wife, his father-in-law, his children, and brother were - then Robert is to be blamed doubly and thrice for the War of the Five Kings and everything that comes after. Because unlike with Viserys I we do have actual textual evidence from Robert's own lips that he knew what Joffrey and Cersei were and that his council were flatterers and fools, men he couldn't really trust. But he kept them on. He did literally nothing to prevent a civil war ... instead he added fuel to the fire by making Ned his Hand, knowing fully well that he and Cersei didn't get along (or learning it quickly enough).

But all that aside, Robert just sucked as king because he never even tried. It was too much to even try to be a good king. That's something we cannot say of any of the other monarchs.

On an objective level Robert sucks as hard as he does because he ruined the finances of the Crown for no good reason and because he set up the Realm for a devastating civil war. Those are his lasting legacies. Even if there was no cival after his death the financial situation would cripple the ability of the Crown to help the people in the next hard winter. His reign itself saw one rebellion so we can also not say that it was a peaceful reign.

This in and of itself puts makes Robert's reign look worse than the reign of Aerys II - who was overthrown, but who gave the Realm peace and plenty for two decades and left a full treasury even after the civil war that overthrew him.

If a historian were to compare those two reigns with those legacies in mind - and that's how they would do it - they would likely conclude that Robert was a more pleasant man in personal conversation (especially when compared to the Mad King at his very end) but not necessarily that Robert was the better king.

Because quite frankly - kings are judged by how many lords they arbitrarily burn or execute. They are a very small class of the entire population, and monarchs are not judged by how many men they executed (for good or bad reasons) but by what they accomplished for their kingdom and the people in it.

A very crucial reason why Maegor sucks as much as a king as he does is also that he beggared the Crown. His successor was in great trouble not just because Maegor tried to kill him, but also because Maegor left the Crown nearly bankrupt. This is also a point where Viserys I is much better than Robert - his treasury was full when the king died, Robert's was empty long before the man finally died.

The fact that a king like Maekar died in battle is not something that should be seen as marring his reign. Kings can die in battle. It is not good when they do, but it can happen. One could hold that against him if he got himself killed because of a stupid mistake, but it doesn't look like that - and even that wouldn't mar his reign as such. Maekar's reign seems to have been very successful as far as we know so far. No major wars aside from the Peake thing (which was crushed) and the Lothston madness (and we don't know how bad that one was).

Compared to Robert Maekar seems to have been a genius. Even despite the fact that Maekar failed to settle his own succession - he had named a Hand who could do just that peacefully with a Great Council. That's how you do it - you install a man you can trust to do the things you no longer can. Robert tried to make things right when he made Ned Lord Regent and Protector of the Realm on his deathbed ... but Ned was no Bloodraven. It didn't even occur to him to settle the succession peacefully and call a Great Council, did it?

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On 4/20/2020 at 5:48 PM, frenin said:

People?? i don't know, the crown should have a interest on them tho, they should have to  try and bring them to the fold. As they did with every single other kingdom. 

The Ironborn aren't that interested in paying "the gold price", so the "interest" others have in them is whether the Ironborn will attack. And there were attempts to "bring them to the fold", which they spurned.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert is responsible for Cersei and Jaime fucking

That's some impressive time-traveling Robert is doing since they were fucking before he ever encountered them.

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because he married Cersei and pardoned Jaime

Pardoning Jaime I can grant was an avoidable error, but marrying Cersei was the prudent thing with the available information. Incest is considered an abomination by everyone other than Valyrians and Craster, so it's completely reasonable to assume she wouldn't be doing that. And Cersei did seem to be fine with the marriage until Robert moaned Lyanna's name. And even with Jaime, his misjudgement isn't nearly as bad as Aerys. Aerys went out of his way to make an enemy of Tywin, INCLUDING by naming Jaime to the KG. Having the son of your enemy guard you and your family is way dumber than anything Robert ever did, and Aerys even demanded that Jaime KILL HIS OWN FATHER, and even seemed to believe that he would do it!

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Robert is responsible for Renly's scheming because he tolerated the man at his court

Renly's "scheming" while Robert was around was to make Margaery Robert's mistress.

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Robert is responsible for everything Littlefinger and Slynt did, because he appointed them to high office and allowed them to retain those offices

I wouldn't say "everything". For example, poisoning Jon Arryn is a matter of LF's sway over Lysa rather than the position Robert gave him. But Robert does bear some responsibility for what they did in their official capacities, which was detectably shady.

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Robert is responsble for keeping Varys and Pycelle around

The Grand Maester is appointed by the Citadel. Even the Lannisters put Pycelle back in charge once they found they'd be stuck with the Citadel's new choice after they tried removing him. And Robert didn't have grounds to remove Pycelle, since he had no reason to think Jon Arryn died of unnatural causes and Pycelle contributed.

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People defending Robert are like CEOs blaming their mid-tier management and workers for the way things turned out for the company.

It's not "workers" or "mid-tier" managers being blamed, but people near the top. And Cersei isn't even an "employee".

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he had a pretty good picture of the quality of the people around him as he himself admitted

Stannis says the same sort of thing about being surrounded by flatters. It's the nature of kingship. Aerys deliberately alienated a competent Hand and appointed a flatterer, much as Cersei would later staff her council with incompetents. Robert re-instates Ned after Ned vociferously disagreed with him.

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In his opinion Stannis

Stannis is no one's idea of a flatterer, and it's unclear if Robert is lumping him in with the fools in that quote. Stannis was gone, and not advising Robert at all at that point. Robert presumably didn't think of Jon Arryn that way, and Stannis sometimes allied with him (the proposal to ban brothels on the other hand could be considered a Stannis-specific bit of foolishness).

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Yet he doesn't replace them with competent men he can trust

It occurs to me that being Master of Whisperers does not go well with being trustworthy.

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And when he calls Ned to court he doesn't give him free rein like Aerys I and Aerys II did Bloodraven and Tywin

AERYS II DIDN'T GIVE TYWIN FREE REIGN! He reversed Tywin's policies out of spite! Aerys' whim changed too frequently to sustain many of his bad ideas though, so the net result was that Tywin still got a lot done.

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The example of Varys shows Robert's approach to government pretty much. The man is a foreign eunuch and a former Targaryen man - all traits a man like Robert despises. Yet the reason he is neither executed nor dismissed is that he is 'useful'. This means the sole reason Varys is still around is that Robert was too lazy to replace him, to lazy to find a man who could do Varys' job more or less as well as Varys himself.

I would say that Janos Slynt exemplifies it better. A more competent commander could have been found, but Robert thought that would be too much of a hassle with little guarantee of much improvement. Varys actually does seem trickier to replace, as it's not like he's got some known subordinates who could step up. Cersei thinks that Qyburn is proof of how replaceable Varys was, but she's basically always wrong and Varys turning up at the end with the assistance of his "little birds" indicates that Varys just wanted her and Qyburn to think they'd maintained their intel system.

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Yet Robert the Fool himself listens to Cersei's whispers more often than not - when he decided to take Robert Arryn from his mother to give him to Casterly Rock

Cersei wouldn't be whispering in Robin's ear and raising him to be a terrible king. Tywin would just be fostering him, as Jon Arryn had to Ned and Robert. And Tywin may not be that likeable, but he seems fairly reasonable & competent and this would help bind more of the realm together.

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as a hostage to be killed by Lord Tywin should Lysa ever talk about the twincest to Robert

Robert doesn't know about that, and I don't think Lysa does either. She certainly didn't give that as a reason why they supposedly killed her husband. She also thought "The seed is strong" was a reference to Sweetrobin.

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when he chose to make Cersei's cousins his squires

There's also nothing wrong with that if you don't know your wife's family are planning to assassinate you.

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when he agreed to name Jaime Warden of the East

There I'll agree it should have been a Valeman, however much Robert might have liked sending Jaime away somewhere.

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when he agreed to make a thug like Sandor Clegane the sworn shield of his heir

Sandor had already been guarding the family, and the King's Landing riot shows he was quite good at it. The king doesn't select everybody's sworn shield, people select them for themselves. And unlike the kingsguard, it's not necessary that such a person be a knight (see Jonquil Darke).

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For a man not trusting the queen and being wary about the influence she wielded over the Crown Prince Robert did nothing to keep the boy away from his mother

Kids normally are with their mothers unless they're being fostered, and that's less common with royals who are supposed to stay in KL.

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and take him under his own wing

Cersei threatened to kill Robert in his sleep when he tried to discipline Joffrey. And Robert could have tried coming up with some other way (whipping boys are how some royal children are disciplined without being struck themselves, although Joff may be too awful to be bothered), but this is not a society with divorce where some child court judge is going to decide the appropriate way to raise him.

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nor did he do anything to prevent Cersei from influencing government by influencing him

Cersei doesn't have a seat in the small council, so most of what would typically be considered government policy is independent of her.

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Not to mention that if Robert was wary of Joffrey as his heir he could have disinherited him. He was the king, and there are means to ensure that an eldest son does not succeed his father. If Robert had cared about his kingdom he would have considered them. Instead he did nothing, as usual.

The whole point of primogeniture is to make succession predictable. Meddling with that is how you get civil wars. You've been blaming Robert for the War of the Five Kings, which is what happened after Joffrey's legitimacy as king was called into doubt!

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Renly conspired against the queen

Conspiring to hook Robert up with Margaery is dishonorable, but not in any way treasonous.

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and Robert himself while he was on his deathbed

As pointed out, and which you haven't rebutted, Robert knew he was done for as did everyone who saw his wounds. Renly was self-serving and risking bloodshed, but still not treasonous at that point.

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Stannis kept 'the truth' about the twincest from Robert

No, he told someone that Robert trusted and who didn't stand to benefit from the change in inheritance like Stannis did.

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effectively stole the royal fleet and abandoned Robert and Ned to their deaths by removing himself to Dragonstone

They were without help Stannis could have provided, but their deaths were contingent on things Stannis didn't know about and had little ability to foresee. I'll also agree that he effectively stole the fleet, but the crown wasn't regarding it as a threat or sorely needed at the time.

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The Realm would have thrived if Robert's brothers had been scullions in the kitchen rather than arrogant and entitled great lords in their own right.

In a counterfactual where it was Ned who was in line for the succession, he probably wouldn't have married Catelyn and could have married Cersei. And in that case I think a lot of the same things would have happened.

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Pycelle and Varys should have never been on the council in the first place

If the problem is with them being on the council "in the first place" you need to blame the Citadel and Aerys, respectively. And you haven't provided any reason why a new king should have had them removed after Aerys.

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and a man giving a fig about his own government would have seen through Littlefinger's machinations easily enough - Tyrion could do it, too

Tyrion knows that LF lied about Tyrion betting against Jaime with the Valyrian dagger at stake, but even as Master of Coin with access to the books he doesn't really understand what LF was up to. Tyrion is completely blindsided when LF frames him for Joffrey's assassination, and he has no clue that LF and Lysa killed Jon Arryn.

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Robert would have likely been crushed as a king if the twincest had come out while he was alive because the entire Realm would have ridiculed this cuckold who was fooled by his wife and her brother. How impotent and fucked-up must a man be if his wife cheats on him with her own brother?

I think that says more about Jaime and Cersei than Robert. He'd be embarassed for sure, but a marriage to Margaery which produced some Baratheon looking kids would patch that up.

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The author shows us Robert's corruption on a symbolic level, too.

GRRM has some issues with fatness, but I wouldn't say that it marks Sam and Wyman Manderly ("Lord Too-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse") as corrupt.

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There is nothing left of Robert Baratheon but the empty shell of a drunkard whose only 'friends' are the flatterers and fools who surround him because he is the king and can grant favors and offices and power

I don't think Thoros of Myr was friends with him due to "favors and offices and power". I think him and Tyrion just thought Robert was a decent bloke to have an ale with (Tyrion also liked that Cersei hated Robert).

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And it is not that Robert's flaws wouldn't have been evident to his friends and companions back then. Making this man a king was a terrible idea by the rebel leaders.

Robert was a brave warrior, a successful tactician/strategist, he'd won the war, been personally wronged by the Targaryen regime, and he had a claim via Targaryen descent. That list bit was actually explained by Ned when Robert himself complained about receiving the throne, but I know you tend to dismiss the text. You may not care about inheritance by descent, but the Westerosi do.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but the general view is that a man who cannot rule his family or wife cannot rule a kingdom, either

Who has that view other than you?

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Vice versa, Robert himself was occasionally more loyal to his childhood friend Ned than his own wife and in-laws which is also a bad trait

I don't see how you can have it both ways.

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Not punishing Ned after he admitted to having commanded Cat to arrest Tyrion reflects very badly on him

Their children were betrothed and they were committed to an alliance, so correcting the issue of Tyrion's arrest and ensuring it didn't happen again was dealing with the problem. Admittedly, he should have tried to find out the reason (I'm actually not sure what Ned would have said since he hadn't been willing to tell Robert about his suspicions of the Lannisters early on).

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That's like Robb shrugging and doing nothing when he learns about Tywin attacking the Tullys and his father being imprisoned.

This isn't one party doing the attacking and imprisoning, but instead party A doing the imprisoning and party B attacking in retaliation.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Nepotism is natural in a feudal society and what Robert did, by giving power to his brothers and friends is the expected behaviour.

Part of the reason for this is because family members are some of the few people you can rely on to be loyal. And both brothers do in their own ways oppose the Lannister coup, but they don't coordinate and wind up fighting each other first.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin did control his family (aside from, perhaps, his wife, but it also does reflect badly on him that he may have been ruled by her).

No, Cersei schemed with Jaime to have him join the KG, thereby depriving Tywin of his chosen heir. Cersei and Joffrey's terrible decisionmaking (plus the terrible decision to have just incest bastards) put Tywin in a terrible position to win the war for them. Jaime refuses to leave the KG (Tywin attempting to make lemonade out of the terrible decision to dismiss Selmy) and become Tywin's heir again. Tyrion murders Tywin. Joanna was dead before the series began, what we get is a terrible relationship between Tywin and his kids. Admittedly, Cersei is an unusually terrible daughter and Jaime joins in with her awfulness.

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I've little issue with kings putting their family on their council ... if they are competent and do agree with your policies. But this just isn't the case for Renly and Stannis

Stannis is one of the most competent naval commanders. We don't know what Renly did as Master of Laws, because we don't know what the Master of Laws does.

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Robert didn't get any advice from Stannis he could work with, not to mention that he seems to have seen his position on the council as stepping stone to succeed Jon Arryn as Hand

We know of Stannis recommending that brothels be banned, which nobody else seemed to agree with. We also know that he joined with Jon Arryn in recommending that Janos Slynt be removed, which Robert to his discredit declined to do.

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who is to say Renly's or Stannis' successors as Lord of Dragonstone or Lord of Storm's End would be loyal to his royal Baratheon cousin...

The whole point of familial inheritance is that you expect shared loyalties. Yes, it's not perfect, but appointing someone outside the family is considered riskier (and indeed LF poses a danger in part because he's relatively disconnected from the aristocracy and hired based on merit).

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You can compare that to Alysanne and Aemon sitting on Jaehaerys I's council - they were there because they could offer valuable advice and because the king was training his son to succeed him one day

They were also his relatives! You can't blame Robert for following the norm of appointing the only close relatives he has by pointing to another king appointing siblings. Do you want to blame Robert for not having enough likable siblings? Guess he shouldn't have sunk the Windproud!

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Aerys I chose Bloodraven as Hand because he was competent and he trusted him to do a good job

Aerys I didn't give a shit about the realm (he's like a less disastrous version of Aenys, though via apathy rather than timidity), and Bloodraven was a TERRIBLE hand. He neglected to protect anyone when the Ironborn attacked, he futilely ordered the peasants to remain in place when they were all fleeing, he ran a despotic police state that killed people for speaking out in protest (Tyrion and Tywin both know that shows you're scared of what others say), everyone other than Aerys hated him and thus people expected a civil war once Maekar ascended (he basically tried to seize Egg as a hostage against his father), his efforts failed to prevent another Blackfyre invasion, and he violated his own offer of safe passage, thus getting himself exiled to the NW.

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And unlike Viserys I - who may have simply been unable to imagine that his children and wife and brother would try to kill each other when he died - we do have it from Robert's own words that he thinks his heir is unsuited to rule, his wife would make a lousy regent

The two sides of Viserys' family had already caused permanent injury and made accusations of treason. Robert merely thought his son would make a lousy king, which is one of the risks of a system based on inheritance.

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Aegor II, you said better than I could.

There was no king Aegor, even before Bittersteel. And I've discussed why Aegon II was better than Aerys II (although Aerys I would also fit in a list of the worst kings).

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Daeron I pushed the realm into a pointless war that costed 60k lifes and was fruitless.

I suppose that depends on how you view the Dornish issue. Daeron succeeded in conquering Dorne, which no Targaryen before him had done. And the odd combination of that with Baelor's more-pious-than-wise peacemaking and marriage arrangements cemented Dorne's place within the kingdoms. It was a very shaky foundation which led to further trouble including the Blackfyre rebellions, but it wasn't nothing.

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19 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There was no king Aegor, even before Bittersteel. And I've discussed why Aegon II was better than Aerys II (although Aerys I would also fit in a list of the worst kings).

 

Sure, my mistake, I meant Aegon II, and I don't know where I said that Aegon II was worse then Aerys II. Only Aegon IV was worse than the mad king.

I do agree with Aerys I being awful, but I don't think he is objective worst than Robert... He didn't give a dam about rulling just like Robert, but at the very least his court wasn't that corrupt, and I do agree with @Lord Varys that Robert bares a huge deal of the blame for letting his court turn into such a mess.

22 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I suppose that depends on how you view the Dornish issue. Daeron succeeded in conquering Dorne, which no Targaryen before him had done. And the odd combination of that with Baelor's more-pious-than-wise peacemaking and marriage arrangements cemented Dorne's place within the kingdoms. It was a very shaky foundation which led to further trouble including the Blackfyre rebellions, but it wasn't nothing.

Benjen said " A conquest that lasted a summer. Your boy king lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game.

Seems very pointless waste of 60k lives.

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15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert is to be blamed for Balon's second rebellion as well as every filthy thing Euron and Victarion do in the future. He had the chance to put them all down and he failed to do it.

How is Robert responsible for Euron and Victarion?

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And of course also for the first one ... he defeated Balon, yes, but he didn't have the strength to prevent Balon from rising against him, did he?

Yes he did! Balon mistakenly thought that Robert's new regime was too shaky to put down a rebellion, but he learned his lesson and didn't try it again while that regime was in place. Robert even had Balon's only son as a hostage with Ned Stark.

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This underlines his weakness not his strength - the Mad King had to turn into a tyrant actually attacking some of the greatest house in the Realm to trigger a rebellion. All Robert needed to do was nothing.

Aerys was the heir of a family that had held the throne for centuries. He had to really screw up to destroy the Targaryens. Robert came to the throne with less legitimacy but proved he could hold it against rebellion.

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He could have put down the Targaryens in exile

He did arrange for them to be assassinated once they gained an army and became a threat. Murdering people who aren't threats is for worse kings than Robert.

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, he could have dealt with Mance

Who didn't yet pose a threat and was actually performing as a bard in Winterfell rather than engaging in any military maneuvers while Robert was there.

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, he could have put the Lannisters and his brothers into place

They weren't known to have done anything which merited being smacked down. Going after threats that don't exist is how you get overthrown.

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, he could have ensured the Starks and Arryns would behave.

What did Ned or Jon Arryn do wrong?

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If you blame Viserys I for the Dance - which is silly since there is no direct evidence that the man actually saw what his wife, his father-in-law, his children, and brother were

Lucerys stabbed Aemond in the eye, Aemond and Aegon both claimed the "Velaryons" were bastards and thus Rhaenyra was guilty of treason, which is something Rhaenyra had Vaemond killed for and Viserys removed Velaryon tongues for, which is why Rhaenyra wanted them tortured to reveal where they'd heard that. That's way worse than anything Robert witnessed.

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- then Robert is to be blamed doubly and thrice for the War of the Five Kings and everything that comes after. Because unlike with Viserys I we do have actual textual evidence from Robert's own lips that he knew what Joffrey and Cersei were and that his council were flatterers and fools, men he couldn't really trust.

"Flatterers and fools" is not enough to make a civil war.

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But he kept them on. He did literally nothing to prevent a civil war

Nobody had contested the succession, and as far as Robert knew he'd made a marriage alliance and attempted a fostering to further bind the ruling coalition together.

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... instead he added fuel to the fire by making Ned his Hand, knowing fully well that he and Cersei didn't get along (or learning it quickly enough).

The question was not whether they'd get along but whether Ned would be a good regent for Joffrey. Robert trusted that his friend was loyal enough to do so, but he didn't know Joffrey was a bastard (whereas Viserys had heard accusations about the Velaryons/Strongs).

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But all that aside, Robert just sucked as king because he never even tried. It was too much to even try to be a good king. That's something we cannot say of any of the other monarchs.
 

Yes, he did, although usually at the prompting of the more responsible people he surrounded himself with. When he brought Ned down to KL he was talking about his hopes of being a better king with Ned by his side. Going to Winterfell to make Ned hand and father-in-law to the heir is trying. As for the other monarchs, Aerys I didn't try at all and Aegon IV engaged in willful misrule. Aerys II also knew his reversals of Tywin's policies weren't improving anything, as he did it out of spite.

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If a historian were to compare those two reigns with those legacies in mind - and that's how they would do it - they would likely conclude that Robert was a more pleasant man in personal conversation (especially when compared to the Mad King at his very end) but not necessarily that Robert was the better king.

I'd like to hear an actual historians opinion.

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Because quite frankly - kings are judged by how many lords they arbitrarily burn or execute.

Arbitrarily burning and executing the very people with the capacity to launch a civil war and overthrow you seems like one of the most relevant criteria for judging a king, although few kings are so terrible that its useful to distinguish them.

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They are a very small class of the entire population, and monarchs are not judged by how many men they executed (for good or bad reasons) but by what they accomplished for their kingdom and the people in it.

Aerys II WAS JUDGED by the people who overthrew him.

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Robert - his treasury was full when the king died, Robert's was empty long before the man finally died.

Robert never ran short of funds because Littlefinger was essentially operating the treasury as a bank whose assets were mostly investments/debts from being loaned out.

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Maekar's reign seems to have been very successful as far as we know so far. No major wars aside from the Peake thing (which was crushed) and the Lothston madness (and we don't know how bad that one was).

If you hold the Greyjoy rebellion against Robert, why not Peake against Maekar? Or any subsequent Blackfyre rebellions?

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Compared to Robert Maekar seems to have been a genius. Even despite the fact that Maekar failed to settle his own succession - he had named a Hand who could do just that peacefully with a Great Council. That's how you do it - you install a man you can trust to do the things you no longer can.

Maekar didn't name Bloodraven as Hand, Aerys I did. And we know from the Tales of Dunk and Egg that Maekar and Bloodraven didn't trust each other.

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Robert tried to make things right when he made Ned Lord Regent and Protector of the Realm on his deathbed ... but Ned was no Bloodraven. It didn't even occur to him to settle the succession peacefully and call a Great Council, did it?

Those are two completely different problems. With Maekar there were multiple candidates with known deficiencies. With Robert there were two known direct heirs and two more younger brothers/uncles, with the problem being the unknown fact that Joffrey and Tommen were bastards.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:
I do agree with Aerys I being awful, but I don't think he is objective worst than Robert... He didn't give a dam about rulling just like Robert, but at the very least his court wasn't that corrupt, and I do agree with @Lord Varys that Robert bares a huge deal of the blame for letting his court turn into such a mess.

There are FAR worse things than corruption. Corruption is like sand in the gears that just makes governance function more poorly. But worst of all is a well-oiled machinery of governance set out to cause harm. Bloodraven was a tyrant, and he also failed in multiple of his aims, so there's a mixture of the worst of both worlds (which in my opinion isn't as bad as a Maegor who is really effective at massive bloodshed).

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Benjen said " A conquest that lasted a summer. Your boy king lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game.

Seems very pointless waste of 60k lives.

In order to weigh the cost vs the benefit you have to assign some value to the benefit (which could be zero or negative depending on your POV). As a product of modern civilization I see little inherent value in conquest compared to war (I actually only regard war as justified for purposes of defense). But the norms of westeros are different, and even under my own criteria could include a "pax Targaryen" of bringing Dorne into the King's Peace, whereas previously there had been multiple wars. Of course, like Benjen I must also assign credit to Daeron's successors who forged the peace after his conquest, but I really don't think the unification would have happened without that in the first place.

 

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