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Aebram

Ned made "common cause with a man he despised?"

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Posted (edited)

I've just started another re-read of the entire series (#13 if I haven't lost count).  it's been a couple of years since the last one, and in the meantime, I've been reading this forum; so maybe I can spot some new clues or hints this time.

I've gotten as far as AGOT 20 (Eddard IV), where Ned, Catelyn, and Littlefinger are discussing the attempt on Bran's life with the Valyrian steel dagger. Catelyn tells Ned that Littlefinger has agreed to help them find out who sent the catspaw.  Ned is reluctant to accept his help, but: 

Quote

It would not be the first time that Ned had been forced to make common cause with a man he despised.

Do we know what this refers to? I'm thinking back over the what we know about Ned's past, Robert's Rebellion, etc., and I can't think of anything that matches this description. Maybe it's a clue...

Edited by Aebram
minor corrections

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“The sea shall be my moat,” he declared, as Lord Tywin’s ships went up in flames, “and woe to any man who dares to cross it.”

King Robert dared. Robert Baratheon, the First of His Name, had won everlasting glory on the Trident. Swift to respond, the young king called his banners and sent his brother Stannis, Lord of Dragonstone, around Dorne with the royal fleet. Warships from Oldtown and the Arbor and the Reach joined their strength to his. Balon Greyjoy sent his own brother Victarion to meet them, but in the Straits of Fair Isle, Lord Stannis lured the ironborn into a trap and smashed the Iron Fleet.

With Balon’s “moat” now undefended, King Robert had no difficulty bringing his host across Ironman’s Bay from Seagard and Lannisport. With his Wardens of the West and North beside him, Robert forced landings on Pyke, Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, and cut his way across the isles with steel and fire. Balon was forced to fall back to his stronghold at Pyke, but when Robert brought down his curtain wall and sent his knights storming through the breech, all resistance collapsed.

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46 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

Tywin Lannister was one of the most prominent commanders in the Greyjoy Rebellion. 

And the most despicable person in universe. It all adds up nicely.

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On 4/10/2020 at 7:10 PM, Aebram said:

I've just started another re-read of the entire series (#13 if I haven't lost count).  it's been a couple of years since the last one, and in the meantime, I've been reading this forum; so maybe I can spot some new clues or hints this time.

I've gotten as far as AGOT 20 (Eddard IV), where Ned, Catelyn, and Littlefinger are discussing the attempt on Bran's life with the Valyrian steel dagger. Catelyn tells Ned that Littlefinger has agreed to help them find out who sent the catspaw.  Ned is reluctant to accept his help, but: 

Do we know what this refers to? I'm thinking back over the what we know about Ned's past, Robert's Rebellion, etc., and I can't think of anything that matches this description. Maybe it's a clue...

Tywin is one.  Hoster is another quite a despicable person.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mark of the West said:

Why is Hoster Tully a despicable person? 

How about force-feeding an abortifacient concoction to your daughter w/o her knowledge? 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

How about force-feeding an abortifacient concoction for your daughter w/o her knowledge? 

Tbf, he was thinking in his daughter when he did that. Nothing good could came from that... Not that anything good came from the abortion either but the man is not a seer. And he regretted that since that severed his ties with his daughter. Not the greatest of men but imo not despicable.

Edited by frenin

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35 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

How about force-feeding an abortifacient concoction for your daughter w/o her knowledge? 

And put a village to the sword, whose Lord defied him.

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36 minutes ago, frenin said:

Tbf, he was thinking in his daughter when he did that. Nothing good could came from that... Not that anything good came from the abortion either but the man is not a seer. And he regretted that since that severed his ties with his daughter. Not the greatest of men but imo not despicable.

I disagree. He wasn’t thinking of Lysa, he was thinking of himself and the family name. 

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I disagree. He wasn’t thinking of Lysa, he was thinking of himself and the family name. 

Would've been better for Lysa being disgraced  and having a bastard?? LF wanted nothing with her, nor he knew Lysa had raped him. I don't think that would end well. Lysa put herself in an impossible situation and Hoster imo made a hard choice but one he had to do nonetheless. Anyway, Lysa betrayed him hard so you can say karma?? For everyone involved :rofl:

 

@SeanF

If he did on daily basis I'd agree, but they were in war then. I told you once that i don't think Robb as despicable for sacking the Westerlands, nor Dany despicable for doing the same in Slavers Bay.

Edited by frenin

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3 minutes ago, frenin said:

Would've been better for Lysa being disgraced  and having a bastard?? LF wanted nothing with her, nor he knew Lysa had raped him. I don't think that would end well. Lysa put herself in an impossible situation and Hoster imo made a hard choice but one he had to do nonetheless. Anyway, Lysa betrayed him hard so you can say karma?? For everyone involved :rofl:

 

@SeanF

If he did on daily basis I'd agree, but they were in war then. I told you once that i don't think Robb as despicable for sacking the Westerlands, nor Dany despicable for doing the same in Slavers Bay.

But, Ned might disagree.

As always, circumstances matter.  If the village was defended, and they died during the course of the fighting, that's war.  If it was a cold-blooded act of extermination, of the type Tywin Lannister ordered Ser Kevan to perform, that would be a different matter.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

But, Ned might disagree.

Would he now?? I find unlikely that our good Ned did not do his fare share during the Robellion and Balon's war.

15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 As always, circumstances matter.  If the village was defended, and they died during the course of the fighting, that's war.  If it was a cold-blooded act of extermination, of the type Tywin Lannister ordered Ser Kevan to perform, that would be a different matter.

We are told that Lord Goodbroke died there so it seems that Hoster just came on him and the village got the worst during the fighting... And likely than not Hoster wanted to make an example out of it. I hinestly doubt it was something a la Tywin.  Idon't find the man a good person, but despicable?? That's a lot of bad rep.

Edited by frenin

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I think we're in a very grey area here, and one constricted by the social norms. With the stigma attached to the loss of virginity and birthing a bastard, what would Lysa's prospects be? She was the Lord Paramount's daughter, marrying her off , whether to LF or some herdge knight like a minor lord might do was not an option. Finding someone of higher rank willing to cover up would not be easy and there wasn't enough time to do so. And once she gave birth, a marriage to anyone of importance would be totally out of the window. So there she would be, unmarried, unmarriable, a stain on her family's name, and perceived as such by everyone? How would the scandal affect not only Hoster's own position but that of Catelyn and Edmure? How would she live her days? She could hardly be allowed to stay in Riverrun, so pack her off somewhere and keep her locked till the end of her days? Force her to become a septa or a silent sister? And what about the baby?

It seems to me that Hoster probably felt he was choosing the lesser evil, a solution that wouldn't damage the family name and that would allow Lysa at least a semblance of a normal future. Jon Arryn in need of allies and an heir must have seemed like sent by the Seven to Hoster. If Hoster was Ned, he might have come up with a better solution to protect Lysa, but he was not. Ned was an exception, not the rule among the men of his time. That, however, doesn't make Hoster a Tywin, Tywin was cruel, though efficient, even by the society's norms.

- Pragmatic reasoning and social concerns aside, though: I wouldn't place Hoster anywhere near Tywin because Hoster felt regretful and guilty about what he had done. Can you imagine Tywin being sorry for anything he had done? I can't. That's why I consider Tywin a PoS, whereas Hoster merely a man who fucked up.

 

- To the OP's question: I believe that Ned's issues would have started once RR broke out, there were bound to be lord whose support he needed though he would have rather done without it.

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Eddard is more pragmatic than people gives him credit for. But anyway as mentioned Eddard served Robert together with Tywin during the Greyjoy Rebellion so that's probably what it refers to.

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@Ygrain, I agree w/ what you said. But I still find Hoster’s decision to do what he did despicable. :)

The other aspect is, yes, there would have been serious consequences if Lysa had had a child out of wedlock, but what Hoster did didn’t turn out so good either... 

And I absolutely agree he’s not anywhere near as despicable as Tywin.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/12/2020 at 9:38 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

As far as we know, Ned never knew about Lysa's pregnancy. Even Cat only started speculating on it once Hoster was on his death bed.

Exactly.  The readership only strongly supposes that the mentions of Tansy are references to an abortifacient.  I personally think that there is a strong case for this to be true. However we have no indication that Catelyn has arrived at the same conclusion before returning to Riverrun.  We also don’t know that Hoster let anything slip before he lay delirious on his deathbed. 
 

If Cat didn’t know, why would Ned?

 

 But jeez this raises another question- what if The Blackfish knew, or figured it out? Lysa was still pretty young when she got pregnant, Brynden might have still been around then, and the coverup seems a pretty good (additional?) reason for TBF to want to leave his brother’s side. 

Edited by Reekazoid

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