Ned made "common cause with a man he despised?"

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Reekazoid said:

Exactly.  The readership only strongly supposes that the mentions of Tansy are references to an abortifacient.  I personally think that there is a strong case for this to be true. However we have no indication that Catelyn has arrived at the same conclusion. We also don’t know that Hoster let anything slip before he let delirious on his deathbed. 
 

If Cat didn’t know, why would Ned??

 

 But jeez this raises another question- what if The Blackfish knew, or figured it out? Lysa was still pretty young when she got pregnant, Brynden might have still been around then, and the coverup seems a pretty good (additional?) reason for TBF to want to leave his brother’s side. 

Sure. But bringing up the tansy “incident” is just a way to point to Hoster not being a wonderful person, to put it mildly. Ned may have witnessed or learned of other things that could have led him to dislike the man. For instance, Hoster only agreed to join the Rebellion when Arryn agreed to marry Lysa. That’s kind of vile, too. I mean, Ned was probably going to marry Cat in Brandon’s place anyway. But Aerys wanted Hoster’s future SiL’s head, and still Hoster only joined in after Arryn accepted to marry Lysa. 

ASoS, Catelyn I

“Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. “Father,” she said, “Father, I know what you did.” She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. “You made him take her,” she whispered. “Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully.” Small wonder her sister’s marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth.”

 

[Reekazoid]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sure. But bringing up the tansy “incident” is just a way to point to Hoster not being a wonderful person, to put it mildly. Ned may have witnessed or learned of other things that could have led him to dislike the man. For instance, Hoster only agreed to join the Rebellion when Arryn agreed to marry Lysa. That’s kind of vile, too. I mean, Ned was probably going to marry Cat in Brandon’s place anyway. But Aerys wanted Hoster’s future SiL’s head, and still Hoster only joined in after Arryn accepted to marry Lysa. 

ASoS, Catelyn I

“Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. “Father,” she said, “Father, I know what you did.” She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. “You made him take her,” she whispered. “Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully.” Small wonder her sister’s marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth.”

 

Awesome, had forgotten that scene. Yah so Cat for sure knew.  Ned may have disliked Hoster , but I still think that despised is a whole other level. 

As for Hoster leveraging Jon Arryn, that’s a bit harsh but seems pretty normal behavior for a Westerosi lord - smart even.  I think you’d have to be exceptionally vile to merit despise. I can’t think of anyone else, though.  Hoster by default until someone better (worse?) comes along.  

[corbon]

3 minutes ago, Reekazoid said:

I can’t think of anyone else, though.  Hoster by default until someone better (worse?) comes along.  

Tywin, or even Jaime, Lannister have already come along. You have the Greyjoy rebellion even if you don;t count the aftermath of Robert's Rebellion and Robert marrying Cersei.

Roose Bolton also comes to mind, though given that Roose owes Ned allegiance, 'making common cause' hardly seems a fair description.

We know that Ned despises these people. Its rather dubious that he despised Hoster Tully.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Reekazoid said:

Awesome, had forgotten that scene. Yah so Cat for sure knew.  Ned may have disliked Hoster , but I still think that despised is a whole other level. 

As for Hoster leveraging Jon Arryn, that’s a bit harsh but seems pretty normal behavior for a Westerosi lord - smart even.  I think you’d have to be exceptionally vile to merit despise. I can’t think of anyone else, though.  Hoster by default until someone better (worse?) comes along.  

Could be, on both counts. But for someone like Ned? I don’t think so. Even if it is normal behaviour, even if it is smart, it’s not very honourable, is it? Who are the other lords we know of that have done that kind of thing? Walder Frey and Tywin Lannister. Yikes and double yikes.

 

[corbon]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Could be, on both counts. But for someone like Ned? I don’t think so. Even if it is normal behaviour, even if it is smart, it’s not very honourable, is it? Who are the other lords we know of that have done that kind of thing? Walder Frey and Tywin Lannister. Yikes and double yikes.

Thats depends on how you define what Hoster did.

So what did he do? Sold his house's allegiance for a marriage contract, for the best price he could get?
Doesn't seem so bad to me.
Or are we talking about the forced abortion for Lysa? Well, its wrong for sure, but he's also trying to get the best life for her he can. Misguided for sure, I don't know about dishonourable, when you consider dynastic politics are in play.
Truth is Lysa broke a bunch of important and relevant social rules that were there for her own good because she was selfish and greedy - heck, from what we are told she frikken raped Littlefinger to get pregnant. There's a price to pay for that. I don't agree the baby should be the one paying the price, but Lysa bears her own share of responsibility for what happened. Most of it IMO.

Interesting question that, come to think of it.
Here we have a rape baby. The the girl raped the boy (he was drunk, carried upstairs, she snuck up after and raped him - he thought he was with her sister whom he was in love with, had just been rejected by, and even cried out the sister's name) and there is no evidence the boy wanted the baby.
If we reverse the situation...
Yet Hoster's a monster because he gave Lysa and abortifacient?
Maybe, maybe not. I expect there'll be differences of opinion on that one. But it seems likely that people aren't really considering the actual facts before they think about their response.

I don't think the comparison to Walder Frey or Tywin is close to fair. They Frey's aren't despised for the hard bargain they drove before joining the Starks. They are despised for their over the top and treacherous (ie breaking from Robb would have been fair, but pretending to stay friends and murdering everyone is treacherous) response to Rob breaking their treaty and particularly that they broke critical social taboos in their treachery.
Well, they are a little despised for 'joining late'  - but that because they owed allegiance to the Tullys who had joined. The Tully owe no allegiance to the Starks and Arryns, potential marriage or no.
Tywin, well he's on another plane entirely. I'm not sure where at all you think Tywin did something similar to Hoster?
Robb Stark sold Arya to the Freys for an alliance. Is that so different from what Hoster Tully did?

[frenin]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sure. But bringing up the tansy “incident” is just a way to point to Hoster not being a wonderful person, to put it mildly. Ned may have witnessed or learned of other things that could have led him to dislike the man. For instance, Hoster only agreed to join the Rebellion when Arryn agreed to marry Lysa. That’s kind of vile, too. I mean, Ned was probably going to marry Cat in Brandon’s place anyway. But Aerys wanted Hoster’s future SiL’s head, and still Hoster only joined in after Arryn accepted to marry Lysa. 

ASoS, Catelyn I

“Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. “Father,” she said, “Father, I know what you did.” She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. “You made him take her,” she whispered. “Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully.” Small wonder her sister’s marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth.”

 

I doubt that Ned dislikes Hoster for that, Hoster had zero ties with the rebels and they were asking to commit treason and of all the rebels, he was the only one without and impregnable castle or unaccesible  land, they were asking too much so he answered in kind. Besides assuming that Ned was going to marry Cat right away after he became a rebel isn't a little bit far fetched?? 

The only thing Ned says about him is "Thanks the gods for good old Hoster". But i see you don't like the man.

 

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Roose Bolton also comes to mind, though given that Roose owes Ned allegiance, 'making common cause' hardly seems a fair description.

I don't think Roose gave  Ned any reason to despise  him. Ned is not the kind of man who endures  bs in his own domains. Nor Cat had any reason to despise  Roose either.

 

 

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Could be, on both counts. But for someone like Ned? I don’t think so. Even if it is normal behaviour, even if it is smart, it’s not very honourable, is it? Who are the other lords we know of that have done that kind of thing? Walder Frey and Tywin Lannister. Yikes and double yikes.

 

I think that for someone like Ned is pretty normal. They weren't asking him to go for a camping, but to commit treason.  And tbf Tywin didn't do it, he never got the chance. The Tyrells did it, that's how the Nymeros  Martell alliance was born too etc. But i don't see the problem, marriage alliagiances are one of the only reliable ways to seal  a deal. Nor do i think Ned would despise  his own wife for selling  Arya.