Why did Ned intend for Sansa and Arya to marry south?

[Angel Eyes]

So this is an offshoot of what Ned intended for his kids, but why did he want Arya to marry someone in the South by taking her to court? Sansa may have flourished with any house provided her intended was not a monster like Joffrey, but he didn't need to bring Arya. Why couldn't he try and ingratiate her with Northern lords?

[John Suburbs]

Did he? He took Arya south to hopefully teach her to be a lady, but I don't recall him ever saying that she would marry a southron lord.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Did he? He took Arya south to hopefully teach her to be a lady, but I don't recall him ever saying that she would marry a southron lord.

I don't recall anything about marrying her to a southern lord. Honestly excepting the show I don't recall anything in ASOIAF that said that.

[Texas Hold Em]

That was Catelyn's desire to marry her daughters to proper southron lords.  Not Ned's.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

That was Catelyn's desire to marry her daughters to proper southron lords.  Not Ned's.  

Did she ever say that in the books?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Arya being married off to a southron lord is never mentioned. Ned tells her she'll marry a king someday, but at that point in time in the story, it's not exactly a possibility. Jon in his opening chapter thinks that Sansa and Arya would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistresses of their own castles. This is the closest that I can remember, but it's also coming from a 14 year old who may not be privy to what his father is thinking.

And really, anything south of Winterfell could be considered southron, and there are only 4 castles north of Winterfell. 

Brynden Tully is southron by northern definition, but he calls Beric Dondarrion "a southron lord" because he's a Marcher Lord. Catelyn calls the Reachmen southron lords. 

[Nevets]

I think Arya was going South mainly to learn to become a Lady.

There seems to be a shortage of suitable possibilities in the North in any event.  Arya is from a great house, so she will likely marry someone of pretty high rank.  Cerwyn, Reed, and Hornwood are relatively minor houses.  Prominent houses like Manderly, Glover, Mormont don't have anyone available the right age.

[The hairy bear]

When Robert proposes to Ned to marry Sansa to Joffrey, he is taken by surprise and says that he must consult Catelyn before accepting. I don't think this is very consistent with the idea that the Starks wanted to organize big Southron weddings for their daughters. When they discuss the the possibility, it is clear that they had never discussed it before.

After receiving Lysa's message, they say:

"Sansa must wed Joffrey, that is clear now, we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion. And it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years she will be of an age to marry too."

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart.

 

Again, nowhere are we given the indication that marrying them to a Southern lord had been their plan. In fact, it seems as if they had consciously refused to make any plans for any their children.

[Nagini's Neville]

I thought he just brought Arya to KL, so she would learn to be Lady-like. I don't find indications in the text, that Ned even thought about which families to marry Arya and Sansa to, let alone the south, until Booby B basically made Ned an offer he couldn't refuse. So if that hadn't happened I just as likely could see Ned betroth Sansa to the North and I think there was never really any talk about Arya being betroth to anyone yet.

So my answer would be: He didn't

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

When Robert proposes to Ned to marry Sansa to Joffrey, he is taken by surprise and says that he must consult Catelyn before accepting.

Word. Ned was against the marriage but succumbed to his lady wifes political mind

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

 And it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years she will be of an age to marry too."

Well, thats a strange thing to say though. Compounded with Neds promise to marry her to a high lord, I think we can assume Ned wanted Arya to eventually marry some southron 

[Springwatch]

On 4/15/2020 at 10:49 AM, The hairy bear said:

When Robert proposes to Ned to marry Sansa to Joffrey, he is taken by surprise and says that he must consult Catelyn before accepting. I don't think this is very consistent with the idea that the Starks wanted to organize big Southron weddings for their daughters. When they discuss the the possibility, it is clear that they had never discussed it before.

Looks like they hadn't made any plans yet - but the general expectation is a great marriage for both of them:  'Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Aya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistresses of castles of their own.'  [AGOT - JON I]

Normality for a great lord's daughters.

On 4/15/2020 at 10:49 AM, The hairy bear said:

After receiving Lysa's message, they say:

"Sansa must wed Joffrey, that is clear now, we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion. And it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years she will be of an age to marry too."

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart

they say? This quote is from Ned alone, and you can tell because it's totally loopy (why must the marriage go ahead? Sansa is only eleven). I can't tell if Cat had thought out a plan beyond Ned going south and finding Jon Arryn's murderer - but she is shocked at being parted from her children.

On 4/15/2020 at 1:34 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Word. Ned was against the marriage but succumbed to his lady wifes political mind

Doesn't look that way. 'Sansa must wed Joffrey, that is clear now...'

[Hugorfonics]

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Looks like they hadn't made any plans yet - but the general expectation is a great marriage for both of them:  'Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Aya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistresses of castles of their own.'  [AGOT - JON I]

Normality for a great lord's daughters.

they say? This quote is from Ned alone, and you can tell because it's totally loopy (why must the marriage go ahead? Sansa is only eleven). I can't tell if Cat had thought out a plan beyond Ned going south and finding Jon Arryn's murderer - but she is shocked at being parted from her children.

Doesn't look that way. 'Sansa must wed Joffrey, that is clear now...'

Cat didnt want her kids to leave her, and Ned wanted to bring justice to Jons killer, but cuz of Sansa he was probably gonna go regardless

Quote

Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. "Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!"

"You knew the man," she said. "The king is a stranger to you." Catelyn remembered the direwolf dead in the snow, the broken antler lodged deep in her throat. She had to make him see. "Pride is everything to a king, my lord. Robert came all this way to see you, to bring you these great honors, you cannot throw them back in his face."

"Honors?" Ned laughed bitterly.

"In his eyes, yes," she said.

"And in yours?"

"And in mine," she blazed, angry now. Why couldn't he see? "He offers his own son in marriage to our daughter, what else would you call that? Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne. What is so wrong with that?"

"Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said. "And Joffrey . . . Joffrey is . . . "

She finished for him. " . . . crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

 

[Springwatch]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cat didnt want her kids to leave her, and Ned wanted to bring justice to Jons killer, but cuz of Sansa he was probably gonna go regardless

Ned didn't want to go south for justice etc, but Cat and Luwin persuaded him. And then he says this nutzo thing about the marriage must go ahead.

Like I said, it's not clear if Cat had thought yet about what the family would do while Ned went south. She hated being parted from Ned, and she hated being parted from her children. It was before Lysa's message arrived that she was arguing in favour of Sansa marrying Joff, son of Cersei Lannister.

[Hugorfonics]

8 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Ned didn't want to go south for justice etc, but Cat and Luwin persuaded him. And then he says this nutzo thing about the marriage must go ahead.

Like I said, it's not clear if Cat had thought yet about what the family would do while Ned went south. She hated being parted from Ned, and she hated being parted from her children. It was before Lysa's message arrived that she was arguing in favour of Sansa marrying Joff, son of Cersei Lannister.

Your right, he was persuaded to to south for justice. Ya know I always was angered by Neds fathering of Sansa, giving her to Joff like that. But now I see Catelyn is just as terrible as a mother

Quote

"Now we truly have no choice. You must be Robert's Hand. You must go south with him and learn the truth."

She saw at once that Ned had reached a very different conclusion. "The only truths I know are here. The south is a nest of adders I would do better to avoid."

Luwin plucked at his chain collar where it had chafed the soft skin of his throat. "The Hand of the King has great power, my lord. Power to find the truth of Lord Arryn's death, to bring his killers to the king's justice. Power to protect Lady Arryn and her son, if the worst be true."

Ned glanced helplessly around the bedchamber. Catelyn's heart went out to him, but she knew she could not take him in her arms just then. First the victory must be won, for her children's sake. "You say you love Robert like a brother. Would you leave your brother surrounded by Lannisters?"

I dont even get Cats reasoning here, if its for the childrens sake, why leave your child surrounded by Lannisters?

[Springwatch]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Your right, he was persuaded to to south for justice. Ya know I always was angered by Neds fathering of Sansa, giving her to Joff like that. But now I see Catelyn is just as terrible as a mother

I dont even get Cats reasoning here, if its for the childrens sake, why leave your child surrounded by Lannisters?

I don't think Cat's terrible. If the Lannisters are capable of murdering Jon Arryn, they are a threat to the entire realm. Ultimately to her own family.

It's not clear how Cat would have planned it, because Ned shuts her up once he made his decision. I think she would have decided to keep all the children with her at Winterfell, or taken the entire family south so she could keep an eye on them. Family, duty, honor.

[Hugorfonics]

8 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I don't think Cat's terrible.

Terrible is a strong word that should only be resonated with Cats step parenting skills, true.

9 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

If the Lannisters are capable of murdering Jon Arryn, they are a threat to the entire realm. Ultimately to her own family.

But there should be some type of language when using your second born like bait

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

It's not clear how Cat would have planned it, because Ned shuts her up once he made his decision. I think she would have decided to keep all the children with her at Winterfell, or taken the entire family south so she could keep an eye on them. Family, duty, honor.

I do think that Cat wanted to go south too. But apparently a starks gotta be in Winterfell for some reason (though there hasnt for years) and Rickon

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Terrible is a strong word that should only be resonated with Cats step parenting skills, true.

Catelyn was not Jon's step-parent.

[Hugorfonics]

6 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Catelyn was not Jon's step-parent.

Of course she was. Its his (adopted) dads wife

[Colonel Green]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Of course she was. Its his (adopted) dads wife

No, she was not.  You cannot be a step-parent against your will (Catelyn certainly never agreed to it), and in addition Catelyn did not have any responsibility for raising Jon, that was exclusively Ned's province.

If a man today brought home a baby that he announced was the product of his affair and that henceforth the child would be living in their house, and his wife said "no", and the man then said "tough shit, you don't get a say", would anyone say that the wife was the child's stepmother?

[Hugorfonics]

18 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

No, she was not.  You cannot be a step-parent against your will (Catelyn certainly never agreed to it),

Idk if thats true.

Theon says Robb was his brother, that was certainly against his will.

27 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

and in addition Catelyn did not have any responsibility for raising Jon, that was exclusively Ned's province.

Ned didnt have any responsibility either, he chose to give the child a home at Winterfell (or maybe it was against his will "Promise me Ned")

29 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

If a man today brought home a baby that he announced was the product of his affair and that henceforth the child would be living in their house, and his wife said "no", and the man then said "tough shit, you don't get a say", would anyone say that the wife was the child's stepmother?

First of all, Ned never said it was a product of an affair and Cat never said no.

But back to your scenario, yes I would say that. Stepmothers dont have to be nice nor raise you, have you never seen any disney movie?