Unconventional opinions dumpsterfire of a thread

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think that is still no explanation, that every man thinks she is such a hot 12 year old, because, that started before he wanted to have the time jump (similar with Dany) Are we suppose to think that's normal in universe? Or do all of these men have massive issues? IMO it's not completely clear from the text, there are constantly conflicting messages. And if it's supposed to be time period appropriate- it's not even that.

Edit: I also don't think GRRM writes her at all as, if she was in her late teens already. To me she is a very realistic almost 13/14 year old, when we last see her. Otherwise she'd be a bit too immature and still stuck in certain developmental stages you're usually already past, when you are 17/18. I don't think we'd have the whole unkiss thing (whatever it will turn out to be about), if she was already older

I'm not talking about the five-year gap. George has said in the past that he originally planned for each book to cover a period of several years.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I'm not talking about the five-year gap. George has said in the past that he originally planned for each book to cover a period of several years.

Oh okay! I didn't know that. Thanks! I guess that would really explain some things. Still wished he had adjusted the story a bit more to the actual ages. I don't think it would have changed the story that much

[The Bard of Banefort]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

Oh okay! I didn't know that. Thanks!

No problem! I was able to find an interview where he talked about it a little bit: https://observationdeck.kinja.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

10. While we're on the subject of SanSan, I do get the impression that the reason why some people dislike it (not all, but some) is because it's predominantly shipped by women, and everyone knows that if girls like something, then it MUST be stupid.

I deeply loath this entire complex because I find it very distasteful to search for clues for some kind of weird attraction that would be the very definition of an abusive pedo relationship even if it played out in a 'consensual manner' - and the time to discuss it would be if it happened, not while people fantasize about it and look for 'clues'.

That said, I get what you are saying and I frankly admit it that I do feel uncomfortable around women who ship relationships involving little girls and nihilistic murderers who somehow get attractive or interesting because they have some scars. But I never discussed the SanSan nonsense in detail on the boards just as don't really like any of the shipping nonsense.

Even Jon-Dany is nothing I look forward to - just something that's likely to happen for plot reasons.

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

11. Even in a series about kings and queens and birthright, I've still always been uncomfortable with the assertion that Daenerys is entitled to rule a country that she hasn't been to since she was born, and whose culture and people she knows nothing about. 

Not having a problem with that. Having read Tolkien, I still wonder why the Targaryens weren't driven into exile a thousand years ago. That would make the whole thing even more fun. My girlfriend is preparing an undergraduate class on fantasy literature these days and we are routinely laughing our asses at how much better Dany fares in the entitlement department in comparison to Aragorn.

In general:

I'd say reading/liking most of the series is a waste of time. The political story is irrelevant, most characters will die. The only thing I really care about on a truly emotional level is the Others story. That is what interested me, not the petty squabbles of entitled noble pricks. One does get sucked in by that shit, but I really don't care in the end who sits the throne or who gets his revenge and whatnot.

[corbon]

53 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Oh, thanks! You don't have to, I can look myself! Maybe it's silly to obsess over this, I just think there are conflicting messages in the text in that regard. But maybe that's the nature of the time period, that there are no clear rules to protect "children" and childhood is just not  sacred, given also child labor and child soldiers. So maybe the rule is "if you look like a woman (or what they think that is) and had your period, you are a woman" and maybe GRRM thought the time would pass quicker in general even without the time jump. I can see how that could happen as a gardener. 

Indeed. Remember, boys command armies at 14. Not often, but they do. Growing up happens faster in this world (not just bastards) than in ours.

53 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

To me the young crew is just written extremely well- age-appropriately- so I just can't really picture them older.

I agree. Sansa is pretty well written I think for a 12 year old - for her perspective.
 

Quote

Sansa lifted her arm. She needed a new gown, that was true. She had grown three inches in the past year, and most of her old wardrobe had been ruined by the smoke when she'd tried to burn her mattress on the day of her first flowering

"Your bosom will be as lovely as the queen's," the old woman said as she looped her string around Sansa's chest. "You should not hide it so."

The comment made her blush. Yet the last time she'd gone riding, she could not lace her jerkin all the way to the top, and the stableboy gaped at her as he helped her mount. Sometimes she caught grown men looking at her chest as well, and some of her tunics were so tight she could scarce breathe in them.

GRRM say's she's 12, and writes her mentally/emotionally as 12, but physically she has had a growth spurt already and has a well developed bosom so she appears older than 12.
So you have a little girl that presents to the outside world as tall, womanly, beautiful, courteous - maidenly. In other words she's the epitome of desirability, at least from the outside.

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree with this. 

nice

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This not so much, although I do think there is probably much more of an explanation to his insanity than what we are given. 

Yea, Im not totally sold either

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I respect him, I just think his storyline thus far has been boooorrrriiinnnnggg LOL

Lol idk, lots of the world building happens in Bran, stories from Nan or Luwin (I mean they all do but his is a little more I think). Also learning about warg stuff was pretty cool.

Thrones and Storm Bran were still kinda boring though, I get what your saying. Although theres a few cool scenes sprinkled out. Clash Bran imo was anything but boring though, and Dance was just tremendous. 

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

. No Way! LOL

Hes, so wack lol

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm of the opinion that he will win the battle at WF (possibly with Jon's help?) but not that he will hold it. I don't think he will have it long enough to burn the Weirwood tree or anything. I think by the time it's said & done it will have been the extra push Jon needed to take the place as Lord of WF. 

I also dont think hes going to burn the weirwood... Idk. I remember I was flabbergasted when Tywin melted Ice, but its just metal, right? And this is just a tree, right? Lol idk.

I do think its pretty cool though that Stannis is marching with four different religions 

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

1. I love the Ironborn.

1a. The Iron Throne had a million chances to join the Ironborn closer to the rest of Westeros. Instead they just ignored them, and thus created a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

2. Jorah is a) a mostly-good person and b) a smart character. There's a reason why Dany started to struggle so much once he was no longer there to advise her. 

(Jorah is not a good person. Well, maybe is. But certainly not was. But, yea, Jorahs the shit, like every ironborn lol)

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

; for some reason I don't really hate joffrey- don't ask me why, especially since I like Sansa and Ned !!

I don't hate Joffrey either, Sansa and Tyrion fan, hes too entertaining. He was clever, got the Lannister wit that his brother and grandfather dont have.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol idk, lots of the world building happens in Bran, stories from Nan or Luwin (I mean they all do but his is a little more I think). Also learning about warg stuff was pretty cool

Yeah, I suppose I did enjoy that. It was really just the trek North that left a nasty taste in my mouth. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hes, so wack lol

Haha! A little maybe. Sometimes I like wack.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

also dont think hes going to burn the weirwood... Idk. I remember I was flabbergasted when Tywin melted Ice, but its just metal, right? And this is just a tree, right? Lol idk

Right. It is just metal & it is just a tree but then it is so much more also. The north will crucify him if he burns that tree.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

do think its pretty cool though that Stannis is marching with four different religions

Yeah me too. 

[FictionIsntReal]

19 hours ago, Peach King said:

 Saying that the queen's children are bastards is tantamount to treason though?

It was tantamount to saying RHAENYRA was guilty of treason.

Quote

Daemon hired Blood and Cheese himself and sent a cryptic message from Harrenhall telling her Lucerys would be avenged, Rhaenyra wasn't really complicit

It said "a son for a son", not avenging by killing Aemond, the guy who was actually responsible. Rhaenyra was entirely onboard with Daemon killing Vaemond for merely calling her kids bastards, and unlike with Alicent after Lucerys we don't get any indication she had a problem with this.

17 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Those are also the tendencies of the period. Just look at the Habsburg family ,,tree" (though it looks less like a tree and more like a circle).

No, cousin marriage is less extreme than what GRRM goes for. He's said he was inspired by the Ptolemaics. I personally have a hard time believing even they could sustain a tradition of sibling incest. Child marriage was also less common in the medieval era than in GRRM's writing.

[Dot Com]

1. I look forward to discussions of TWOW almost as much as the book itself at this point.

2. Arya will hitch a ride with Daenerys' fleet to get back to Westeros. She won't be coming back alone.

3. There will be a Dance of Dragons 2.0, with Dany on one side and fAegon on the other (no idea how it will fit in two books, though). Not only that but Arya will be on Dany's side, as a spy of some sort, and Sansa on fAegon's, as his wife. 

4. Jaime will join fAegon's side as well. He's reminisced too much about Rhaegar's children for it to mean nothing.

5. Cersei's story is far from over. She'll become a real wild card, with her beau Euron in tow. Get ready for S.S. Cerson, people. 

6. Almost nothing except a few ending notes (King Bran, Dany dies) from Seasons 7-8 is or will be canon. And even then the context will be completely different.

7. TWOW will be adapted really quickly, though not with the original GOT cast (maybe in animated form?). HBO Max currently has no attractions except for the Friends special, they need something to draw subscribers.

8. On that note, TWOW will come out at the end of this year.

9.  Tyrion is a bad person but not as bad as some people try to paint him as. I feel the fan perception on him has swung too hard.

10. I think there's a real possibility Sansa will end up with Tyrion.  

11. Samwell is completely underrated. 

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Oh, I thought of one more: out of all five of the Stark children, Arya is the one who takes after Catelyn the most  

[Alyn Oakenfist]

47 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Oh, I thought of one more: out of all five of the Stark children, Arya is the one who takes after Catelyn the most  

I think she resembles Stonehart more then Cat, and meting Stonehart will be what sets her on a path back towards her family and redemption.

4 hours ago, Dot Com said:

Sansa on fAegon's, as his wife

Arianne wiould like a word with you.

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I also dont think hes going to burn the weirwood... Idk. I remember I was flabbergasted when Tywin melted Ice, but its just metal, right? And this is just a tree, right? Lol idk.

I do think its pretty cool though that Stannis is marching with four different religions 

Yeah Stannis (at least is ADWD and TWOW) is not stupid enough to do something like this alienating the people he is going to need.

[Elegant Woes]

9 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

1- Jaime is a monster as much as Cersei and Tywin.

 

 I agree with this so much. Don't know why the idea Jaime "redeemed" himself comes from. I mean he literally threatens to kill a baby in AFFC. In some ways, he has changed but yet in other ones he didn't. 

[McGuv19]

1. Bran’s chapters after ACOK are the most boring in the entire series.

2. Robert was an excellent king by Westerosi standards.

3. Feast is one of the better books

4. It won’t end up mattering whether ‘Aegon VI’ was real or not. We may never find out.

5. Roose Bolton is a necromancer

6. The Eyrie will be destroyed and the Arryns will become extinct

7. The volcano on Dragonstone will erupt and provide the smoke for Dany’s rebirth and make her Azor Ahai (or so she will come to believe)

8. There will be a civil war in Dorne

9. Kevan’s death was the saddest in the entire series.

10. Stannis will survive and become Lord of Storm’s End after giving up his crown

[BalerionTheCat]

There are quite a few of these unconventional opinions I'm sharing.

Most important for me:

The Others are demons, angels of Death. They will not be defeated in a great battle. They are invincible. Humankind may survive only by getting rid of its evils: greed, evil magic and worshiping of other gods like R'hllor and its creature like dragons and Shadows.

Rhaegar was driven by his prophecy. BR was already in business and was watching, influencing Lyanna. R+L=J was as much hers and BR ,than Rhaegar's. The prophecies and gods are basements of ASoIaF.

The conflict between Westeros great houses for the IT was just the last of the petty wars. The things that matter happen after.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

 I agree with this so much. Don't know why the idea Jaime "redeemed" himself comes from. I mean he literally threatens to kill a baby in AFFC. In some ways, he has changed but yet in other ones he didn't. 

I haven't seen anyone saying Jaime redeemed himself (not that someone didn't, I just didn't see it) What the majority of people say is that Jaime is on a redemption arc and indeed he is. Whether he will complete it or not is another story. 

[SeanF]

Unconventional or not, but perhaps controversial with some.

1. Tyrion is at heart, quite a nasty person.

2. Daenery's anti-slavery campaign is a just war, imperfectly executed.

3.  The Starks and Targaryens are not good v bad, but instead, two sides of the same coin.  Both families are magical, in various ways, can form bonds with animals that others would find unnatural, and will play a big role in saving the continent from the Others.

4. Tywin would not have murdered Elia and the royal children without getting the green light from at least some of the rebels.    Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, and Robert Baratheon knew damn well they weren't just going after Aerys and Rhaegar, even if Ned thought those two were the only targets.

5.  Good and bad families do not exist in this world.  All families are made up of the good, the bad, and the indifferent.

6.  Arianne Martell will die the same way that Quentyn did.

 

 

 

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

35 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I haven't seen anyone saying Jaime redeemed himself (not that someone didn't, I just didn't see it) What the majority of people say is that Jaime is on a redemption arc and indeed he is. Whether he will complete it or not is another story. 

I don't really think his story is about redemption. I think it's about how he deals with his own actions and failures. He's not a bad man, he's just seen as such by many, and his ark is about coming to grips with that Kingslayer persona.

Him killing Aerys was probably his most noble act, if only he would have done it earlier.

While pushing Bran out of the window was a very dick move, what did you want him to do. Go to Robert and say, yes Robert, I'm fucking my sister, your wife and all your children are mine. It was either Bran or him and Cersei.

As for threatening to kill Edmure's child he is clearly bluffing here, as can be seen by his POV. It's one of his better character moments, when he uses his Kingslayer image in his favor, as people consider him completely amoral and capable of anything.

His only real flaws lie in his relationship with Cersei (and the narcissism from which it derives), something he's clearly decided to put behind him.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

2. Daenery's anti-slavery campaign is a just war, imperfectly executed.

3.  The Starks and Targaryens are not good v bad, but instead, two sides of the same coin.  Both families are magical, in various ways, can form bonds with animals that others would find unnatural, and will play a big role in saving the continent from the Others.

Who exactly disagrees with these ones?

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Tywin would not have murdered Elia and the royal children without getting the green light from at least some of the rebels.    Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, and Robert Baratheon knew damn well they weren't just going after Aerys and Rhaegar, even if Ned thought those two were the only targets.

They more then likely knew they had to die (hard to say if Jon Arryn too, but Robert and Hoster clearly), but given the time span and how Tywin desperately rushed KL, without time for anybody to find out his goal, I don't think he was told to do it. He just knew that it had to be done, and that Robert would be more then grateful to him for doing it.

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

5.  Good and bad families do not exist in this world.  All families are made up of the good, the bad, and the indifferent.

Again, who disagrees with this one?

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Arianne Martell will die the same way that Quentyn did.

Yep, just that the circumstances will be different. Arianne will be BBQ in the Red Keep by Drogon, either directly through dragon fire or indirectly through wildfire.

[BalerionTheCat]

47 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I haven't seen anyone saying Jaime redeemed himself (not that someone didn't, I just didn't see it) What the majority of people say is that Jaime is on a redemption arc and indeed he is. Whether he will complete it or not is another story. 

One point I believe I'm "unconventional" is in thinking Jaime is Cersei's victim. She dominated him. She schemed for him to be KG. She killed a girl who wanted to marry him. How many others did she deter? She ruined his life.

"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword". Tyrion was Tywin's killer because Tywin let, encouraged, his other children, even Joffrey, to abuse Tyrion. Jaime will also be the one swinging the sword for Cersei.

The only thing changed is, he is no more doing Cersei's dirty work.

12 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

As for threatening to kill Edmure's child he is clearly bluffing here, as can be seen by his POV. It's one of his better character moments, when he uses his Kingslayer image in his favor, as people consider him completely amoral and capable of anything.

Exactly

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1. I don't think Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away together, or that he kidnapped her. I think he was rescuing her from his crazy father instead because of the whole KotLT episode at Harrenhal.

2. I hate all the Sansa and Dany debates. Like HATE with a passion. It's like there's a bat signal attached to these two where every stan descends on you for daring to have a different opinion. I love both characters, but the stans make me hate them.

3. Daario is the Blackfyre of the story.

4. Elia is alive and has just returned to Westeros with her son.

5. The Soiled Knight chapter is really underrated.

6. The first time I read AFfC, I hated it with the fire of a thousand suns, because most of the usual POVs were absent from it. But after several rereads, I have come to really appreciate the book and the groundwork that was laid in it.