Unconventional opinions dumpsterfire of a thread

[BalerionTheCat]

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I mostly agree but I think Jaime holds some responsibility too. He allowed himself to be manipulated by Cersei right?

Not a psychologist. Should ask Ramsay. But I think there are things about manipulating people, especially young children.

Yes, pushing Bran was a violation of the Guest Right. I don't remember everything he did. But most were no worse than killing a ward if the father breaks his oath.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If it were me, screw the oath, screw the NW, the whole realm be damned

Another one of my "unconventional".

Oaths and honor are bad more often than not. You swear to something, believing it's something grand. And then you discover you've been cheated. You served the father who was OK, but the son is mad, or a monster. Or you discover the goal of your master is not yours. And because you or your ancestors bent the knee to save their skin and their people, you have to obey monsters.

Oath = Slavery. Only slaves are bound for life and their children too.

Or like Barristan, it gives you excuse to stand still while a man abuse his wife. Volunteer to be Aerys' slave.

Jaime was one of the few who questioned it. He forsworn his honor to save innocents.

Cat was one of the few to had it right with Brienne:

I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new.
...
When the time comes, I will not hold you back.

[Nevets]

Circling back to the OP.  

1.  Jon is not dead, merely severely injured and comatose.

2.  Davos will visit Hardhome and then The Land of Always Winter.  He, and Rickon, will still be north of the Wall at the end of TWOW.

3.  Bran will leave the cave.

4.  Sansa is the nicest, sweetest person in the series and is not purposely harming Sweetrobin.

5.  The Faceless Men are not training Arya to become an assassin.

6.  Brienne's chapters are my favorite of AFFC.

7.  Until she starts heading to Westeros, I don't care about Daenerys's story.

8.  Daenerys will land in Westeros during TWOW.

9.  I have little interest in the Ironborn or Dorne.

10. Sansa and Tyrion will still be together at the end.

11. Arya will be a lady by the end; i.e., she will have a husband and a castle.

 

 

 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

3.  Bran will leave the cave.

4.  Sansa is the nicest, sweetest person in the series and is not purposely harming Sweetrobin.

 

6.  Brienne's chapters are my favorite of AFFC.

  

 

Quote

 5.  The Faceless Men are not training Arya to become an assassin.

interesting. Kinda like it 

 

Quote

11. Arya will be a lady by the end; i.e., she will have a husband and a castle.

somehow I think that as well, but don't know why nobody else seems to?!

 

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

YES, I agree. I would also say Sansa takes after Ned a bit.

I’d say a lot more than a bit.

 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

This is not the first time GRRM shared his rather unsavory thoughts on society. I mean he did say that a man who is an effective politician but also beats his wife behind closed doors could be a good person. It's possible he changed his views because of the massive culture shift in the last 5 years, or at least I hope so, but as it stands he does have this view. 

Was that what he said though? Genuine question... I do recall Martin saying something along the lines of, “a bad person can be an effective ruler”. But I can’t for the life of me remember anything like what you said. The two are wildly different statements IMO.

[867-5309]

25 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Circling back to the OP.  

1.  Jon is not dead, merely severely injured and comatose.

2.  Davos will visit Hardhome and then The Land of Always Winter.  He, and Rickon, will still be north of the Wall at the end of TWOW.

3.  Bran will leave the cave.

4.  Sansa is the nicest, sweetest person in the series and is not purposely harming Sweetrobin.

5.  The Faceless Men are not training Arya to become an assassin.

6.  Brienne's chapters are my favorite of AFFC.

7.  Until she starts heading to Westeros, I don't care about Daenerys's story.

8.  Daenerys will land in Westeros during TWOW.

9.  I have little interest in the Ironborn or Dorne.

10. Sansa and Tyrion will still be together at the end.

11. Arya will be a lady by the end; i.e., she will have a husband and a castle.

 

 

 

 

This list of yours looks like a wish list on your part.  Not mine.  Definitely not mine.  but perhaps yours.  

[867-5309]

1)   Marwyn will perform desperate necromancy on Victarion.  Vic is important to Dany's cause.  They need him to lead the Ironborn.  

2)   Quaithe is Farman.  She will show Dany another way to Westeros.  

3)  Sansa will not make it out of the Eyrie alive.  Feet first is how she will leave the Eyrie.

4)  It will be the white walkers who resurrects Jon into a wight.  Jon will become a wight.  He will never be human again.

5)  Jon Connington will spread greyscale and the people will persecute him.  

6)  Darkstar is a bastard of King Aerys.  He will make a public claim and put himself in Aegon's crosshairs.

7)  Barristan will win the battle for the city of Meereen.  Victarion, Jorah, Brown Ben, and Tyrion will help.  

8)  Arya will further descend into madness when she hears of Jon's execution.  She won't care about his crimes but only about getting what she thinks is revenge.

9)   Stannis will start losing the battle and call for Shireen.  

10)  Dany will find her two wing men in Jorah and Daario.  Rhaegal and Viserion will have their riders at the end of the book.  Dany on Drogon, Jorah on Viserion, and Daario on Rheagal.  I really want Missandei to ride a dragon but I don't think she will.  

 

[Elegant Woes]

30 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Was that what he said though? Genuine question... I do recall Martin saying something along the lines of, “a bad person can be an effective ruler”. But I can’t for the life of me remember anything like what you said. The two are wildly different statements IMO.

I remembered it wrong. User Dot.com corrected me. 

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, 867-5309 said:

1)   Marwyn will perform desperate necromancy on Victarion.  Vic is important to Dany's cause.  They need him to lead the Ironborn.  

2)   Quaithe is Farman.  She will show Dany another way to Westeros.  

3)  Sansa will not make it out of the Eyrie alive.  Feet first is how she will leave the Eyrie.

4)  It will be the white walkers who resurrects Jon into a wight.  Jon will become a wight.  He will never be human again.

5)  Jon Connington will spread greyscale and the people will persecute him.  

6)  Darkstar is a bastard of King Aerys.  He will make a public claim and put himself in Aegon's crosshairs.

7)  Barristan will win the battle for the city of Meereen.  Victarion, Jorah, Brown Ben, and Tyrion will help.  

8)  Arya will further descend into madness when she hears of Jon's execution.  She won't care about his crimes but only about getting what she thinks is revenge.

9)   Stannis will start losing the battle and call for Shireen.  

10)  Dany will find her two wing men in Jorah and Daario.  Rhaegal and Viserion will have their riders at the end of the book.  Dany on Drogon, Jorah on Viserion, and Daario on Rheagal.  I really want Missandei to ride a dragon but I don't think she will.  

 

And you said @Nevets posted a wish list?   

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Quote

 5.  The Faceless Men are not training Arya to become an assassin.

interesting. Kinda like it 

I base this on the training she's receiving.  It's what you would give an undercover spy or detective.

For an assassin, I would expect more training in how to actually kill people: weapons, administering poisons, anatomy, that kind of thing, which she isn't getting.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Quote

11. Arya will be a lady by the end; i.e., she will have a husband and a castle.

somehow I think that as well, but don't know why nobody else seems to?!

I think most Arya fans absolutely HATE the very idea, and non-fans think she won't last that long or will go crazy.

[Elegant Woes]

Arya explicitly says in AGOT that she isn't about that life. The idea of her ending up like that has strong misogynistic implications. 

[Nevets]

20 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And you said @Nevets posted a wish list?   

Well said!  Couldn't have put it better myself myself!

[AryaRegina]

I'm a bit unsure what's unconventional or not, since it's a huge fandom, but I'll try:

• Bran will end up as KitN/Lord of Winterfell, he's not going to become a tree.
• Arya will be crowned with Robb's crown by LSH. I don't think she will end the story as Queen though, since I  believe that's Bran's endgame, but she'll be crowned while under the belief that she is the last Stark. It's the Nymeria connection, Ned's father to Queens thought, Arya being the one who dragged Catelyn's corpse out of the river and Beric giving her the kiss, LSH having Robb's crown and looking for Arya, Arya's relationship with the BwB and the Riverlands, I think it's all leading up to something, and I think that's a pretty unconventional opinion.
• I don't think we're supposed to see Jaime killing Cersei as a good thing, it won't be a scene we're supposed to cheer for. It will be a betrayal of trust.  Cersei has been maritally raped and domestically abused, and being killed by her lover and the father of her children, especially in such a personal way like strangulation, will be a horrific death, even though she's not a good person.

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Well said!  Couldn't have put it better myself myself!

Jorah the dragon rider! I can’t even... 

[Nevets]

9 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Arya explicitly says in AGOT that she isn't about that life. The idea of her ending up like that has strong misogynistic implications. 

I assume you are referring to her becoming a lady.  Since when does anyone in this series get what they want?

Besides, it gives her two whole packs (castle and family) to be boss of.  And believe me, she will be the boss. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

Arya explicitly says in AGOT that she isn't about that life. The mere thought of her ending up like that has strong misogynistic implications. 

I think that takes it too far. Have ppl forgotten character development and character arc? Especially for children? She was 9 when she said that and had a very specific idea about what that life would be about. And she didn't want that.

IMO it is on the contrary rather misogynistic to assume just because she might grow and change and someday might want this life, that this would be sexist, just because it would be a traditionally feminine role and not what she wanted as a child.

I was a completely different person as a child, with completely different dreams.

Also just because she might be a lady of a castle some day does not mean at all, that she couldn't be an equal to her husband and stay Arya as we know her now. Have you forgotten the Mormont women?

IMO her main problem is being forced into the traditional role of a woman and she is to young still to know, if she might want to have a family someday or not.

I base this idea on the fact, that Arya was always trying to get back home and was longing for her family maybe the most out of all the kids. She only became an "adventurer" because she was forced to, it's not something she chose.

I don't think she would have to give anything up, she just would have to meet the right man later. She could still travel and do all kinds of things, doesn't mean, she has to stay forever without a family of her own, if she wants one.

But even if she one day would turn into Sansa IMO it would be rather sexist to find that misogynistic. But I don't think that will happen anyway.

[AryaRegina]

40 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Arya explicitly says in AGOT that she isn't about that life. The idea of her ending up like that has strong misogynistic implications. 

The context is important:
"No," Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. "Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king's council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother's Faith and become the High Septon." But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.
Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"
"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."
Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there.

Arya rejects the future Ned presents to her, of her having no power for herself, but instead ruling her husband's castle, with her sons filling the roles Arya suggests for herself.
Arya as the de jure Lady of her own castle, with a husband of her own choosing being the consort, that's different. She might even get to be a king's councillor and help rebuild Winterfell. 

[Elegant Woes]

@Nagini's Neville I admit I did go too far with how I described it. I shouldn't have worded it the way I did. My apologies. However, with that said I still stand by the idea that Arya changing her dreams has iffy implications. No matter how nuanced and complex Arya is she is still a fictional character. When it comes to a fictional character their wants and dreams are very integral to their essence to be a proper character. It makes them who they are and to change that they kind of fall flat. We, readers, value a character who takes a stance and doesn't waver from it. It makes them a hero. Arya holding dear to her hope and dreams makes her a proper heroine. So from a human world perspective, yes a person can change and their dreams can evolve, but a fictional character cannot. 

[Nevets]

6 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Nagini's Neville I admit I did go too far with how I described it. I shouldn't have worded it the way I did. My apologies. However, with that said I still stand by the idea that Arya changing her dreams has iffy implications. No matter how nuanced and complex Arya is she is still a fictional character. When it comes to a fictional character their wants and dreams are very integral to their essence to be proper character and to change that they kind of fall flat. So from a human world perspective, yes a person can change and their dreams can evolve, but a fictional character cannot. 

The Stark children are all in coming-of-age stories.  And in those, characters  change, often quite a lot.  

For example, if you think Sansa is the same person in AFFC that she was in AGOT, you haven't been paying attention.  (Which, now I think about it, seems a common affliction with her).

I think most readers expect some change, especially with younger characters.  If done well, it shouldn't be a problem.

[Elegant Woes]

@Dot Com As of late I am beginning to think that her ending made sense. Obviously her motivation for leaving will be different and she won't be alone if Gendry and maybe Hot Pie join her, but it oddly fits with Arya as a character.