Unconventional opinions dumpsterfire of a thread

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I thought he made another mistake (by not making a mistake lol

There’s the gender of one of Jaime’s horses...

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Isn’t that perhaps loosing sight of the actual issue? The actual issue is, he made a mistake. He said he’d correct it and he did. That he did it in a different manner doesn’t seem that important IMO. As a matter of fact, I wouldn’t even have cared if he never corrected it at all. And another thing is, I have never seen Martin say anywhere that he was going to retcon it a certain way or that he had. The one SSM I recall reading on the subject is from someone reporting on a book signing or something like that, and that Martin had said something along the lines of, “maybe Renly’s eyes change colour from blue to green depending on the light or what clothes he’s wearing” (paraphrasing).

he could also just said: to Sansa in that moment they looked green. That ppl describe eye colors differently is very common. Especially with green/blue; blue/grey; green/braun  happens to myself a lot as well

[Hugorfonics]

26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 The actual issue is, he made a mistake. He said he’d correct it and he did. 

But he didnt. He said something incorrect 

28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Isn’t that perhaps loosing sight of the actual issue? The actual issue is, he made a mistake. He said he’d correct it and he did. 

But he corrected it in acok already

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And another thing is, I have never seen Martin say anywhere that he was going to retcon it a certain way or that he had. 

Um. I posted the video 

30 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Arya is always 9 in Game, except for only one time she remembers in Storm she had been 8, when she killed her first boy   Why does Renlys eye color matter so much?

Did she? She didnt just think of saying that?

And it doesnt matter. Your right blue and green are similar, especially if renlys wearing green, so is bronze and gold. 

That has nothing to do with GRRM being mistaken when he spoke. Or as we call it, SSM.

 

P.s Jaimes horse? I know Theon incorrectly refers to Dancer as a girl (or maybe it was boy lol) 

[TheBlackDragonWillReturn]

On 4/15/2020 at 4:12 PM, corbon said:

Ned is a traitor. He is as responsible as the Lannisters for everything that happened after Robert died.

He committed treason when he changed Robert's will rather than inform Robert of the truth immediately. Everything follows from that one act of misplaced compassion for his friend. 

Don't get me wrong, I love Ned perhaps more than any other character. But he got this one horribly, horribly wrong. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and Ned took all of Westeros there with his.

Yeah I agree, he didn't handle all of it very well, in my opinion going to a brothel with eight men was stupid he should've gone at midnight or something and he shouldn't of trusted Littlefinger and tried to arrest Cersei in front of the kingsguard because he was gonna get fcked anyway because he's not THAT good of a sword fighter.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Jaimes horse?

Yeah. Theon's as well.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

SSMs are not canon

In most of his interviews I feel type bad for the guy. He does his best to remain spoiler free, but these fans, theyre like starving vultures pecking at the littlest skin available. Hes a writer, not an improve artist.

Also, hes wrong sometimes. Inaccuracy can not he canon. For example (around 30:20)

He talks about a mistake he made when writing Renlys eye color. So he talks about correcting that mistake in book 3 with a clever save. But... he didnt, that part is not in asoiaf and Renlys not in book 3

I kinda agree. IMO literature has to exist on it's own without any additional interpretation help and hints from the author. 

However because we are in the "guessing game", because we have nothing else to do, it's kinda different with asoiaf and you have to look for breadcrumbs everywhere lol

But then it is always still interesting to hear about the author's intentions etc.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah. Theon's as well.

Smiler. The one who burned in front of him. That always stuck with me. Now that I think about it its type Drogoish, I wonder if theres any parallels

Are you sure? I got its a he, couldnt find she. Also itd be strange to make that mistake when hes only in acok, unlike Dancer who changed gender in between the books, according to Theon

Although it could be that Theons just bad with horse gender lol

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I kinda agree. IMO literature has to exist on it's own without any additional interpretation help and hints from the author. 

Word. Also what he intends and what he creates dont have to be the same thing

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

However because we are in the "guessing game", because we have nothing else to do, it's kinda different with asoiaf and you have to look for breadcrumbs everywhere lol

But theyre not real breadcrumbs

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But then it is always still interesting to hear about the author's intentions etc.

Always, all the etc

[Elegant Woes]

I have another unconventional opinion:

I am a huge Sansa fan, one of the biggest one you will ever meet, but I don't like the Pawn to Player reread project. In fact it really makes me uncomfortable. Sansa is oversexualized far too much in it and Sandor Clegane is brought up far more then he should have been. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

11 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

Do you think Nettles may have been Daemon's bastard daughter instead of his lover?  What about maybe both?

If Daemon knowingly had sex with his daughter, then that would make his screwed-up even by Targaryens standards. Not even Aegon IV screwed his own daughter.

 

RE: Tyrion, it's interesting that for all the women Tyrion's had sex with, he doesn't have any bastards (that we know of). And we know that the prostitutes don't always use birth control (ex. Barra). Makes me wonder if he can't have children.

[Nagini's Neville]

14 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

Yes.  If he only had a similar moment with her as he'd had with Arya.  I was so expecting it and never got it.  I've been ringing this bell for a while, but I think people are starting to realize this failing on Ned's part.

Yeah, I think because Ned was such a good guy and his loss was such a big deal for everyone, ppl are very defensive of him.

I definitely think, that Ned was still a very good time appropriate father, that loved his children very much. But that doesn't change that he did the exact same mistakes Sansa made in regards to Joffrey. He had a very long time to figure stuff out and to change his mind and he then expected Sansa to do the same just by him saying so. Or he basically was just used to her always obeying and expected her to do it in this situation as well, just because he said so.

But IMO his treatment of her really was not fair. Arya could not give up "herself" and her behavior and he had a talk with her and gave into her and got her Syrio, so it would be fine for him and her. He also had a talk with her about how to handle the Trident situation. I really don't know why he thought Sansa didn't need some fatherly guidance as well, she definitely seemed like she needed it throwing all those tantrums, but with her he just expected her to obey and give up her dream of her dream future just like that without understanding at all why.

In a lot of ways he just threw Sansa to the lions, without thinking about the psychologic effect, that this would have on her at all.

He knew the truth about what happened at the trident, he knew Joffrey had done something so bad, that Nym attacked him and both Sansa and Arya had told him the truth. His best friend and father of Joffrey even warned him about the boy's nature.

" “I am sorry for your girl, Ned. Truly. About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I’d stake my soul on it. My son … you love your children, don’t you?” 

“With all my heart,” Ned said. “Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that’s what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?” 

“He’s only a boy,” Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert’s voice. “Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?” “It would not trouble me if the boy was wild, Ned. You don’t know him as I do.” "

A Game of Thrones, Eddard 7

" “Where is the direwolf?” Cersei Lannister asked when her husband was gone. Beside her, Prince Joffrey was smiling."

A Game of Thrones, Eddard 3

This is from Ned's POV. This boy is smiling, when he hears his betrothed's beloved pet is going to be killed, he is smiling at her distress and terror or at least regardless of it. Those are signs of a real sadist/sociopath. Yeah, Joff is still young, but he is not 6, but 12 already. I'm sorry, but what kinda dad lets his daughter hang out with a boy like that again? I understand, that Ned maybe could not right away end the betrothal, but he should have had a serious talk with Sansa about the right qualities in a future husband and how Joffrey is lacking. Right after Lady's death would have been the right time for that, she was also confused and hurting and she first hated Joffrey after Lady's death. And Ned should have kept her away from Joffrey after that or at least only allow her to meet him under his supervision. 

But instead he just lets Sansa hang out with Joffrey again only with Septa Mordane, who passes out drunk and also I've never read her say anything, that would have helped Sansa develop the right outlook in life (even though she has probably still taught her a lot of important stuff "courtesy is a Lady's armor") or values, that could help her in the Joffrey situation. And then Joffrey wraps her around his finger again and everything that happened just seems like a bad dream and Sansa was able to rationalize it away, because no one helped her with it.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

13 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

I really don't care who is king.  It's more about how the grand issues of the realm are solved and the choices the characters make in getting there.  It's clear from all the prequels that succession is a complete shitshow, so Jon's parentage and claim won't make a hill of beans difference in the end, nor will Dany's or Aegon's or Stannis's for that matter.  His magical heritage might.  And it wouldn't matter if he were a Stark Targ, or a Dayne Targ, IMO for the magic.

Yeah, me actually neither. Just right in the beginning, when there was only Stannis, Rob, Renly and Joffrey, IMO Stannis was the rightful heir and Robb and Renly should have supported him instead of doing their own thing.

13 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

Yeah, he's just a player, which makes him a major douche.  

Being a player is fine, I guess, definitely not very nice, since all of those poor commoner girls have to live with the consequences then.

But he also raped Kyra   

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 because Ned was such a good guy

How?

[Nagini's Neville]

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

How?

1. He tried his best- in the way that he thought was best to protect all children (probably everyone under 16 or even a bit older, since he also protected Loras) even the ones of his enemies like Dany and Cersei's children, which I think is very moral and noble and just the right thing to do. And tbh there is only Davos, Jon and Sam, who try to do the same. With all other men of power children are not save or they have either already killed/hurt them or are responsible for dead children. IMO this is a very big deal

2. There are no signs, that he would forced his children into a marriage, they would have absolutely not agreed to

3. There are no signs, that he would have wanted his children to marry  before them coming of age (16), maybe even a bit later

4. He was not a rapist, it appears not even of his wife (which is horrible to have to say that, but yeah)

5. He respects all women much more than most other men of his world and position and doesn't view them as sexual objects, that he can just use for his own gratification and has given those values to his sons as well. He has taught them to value and respect women and not deal flippantly with their lives and the lives of potential children, just because they can and that they also have responsibility for their actions. He is loyal to his wife and doesn't visit brothels.

6. He genuinely loves his wife and children and his whole family

7. He is not solely an authoritarian ridged husband and father

   a) He values and trusts Cat's advice, thinks highly of her morally and intellectually

   b) He supports Arya and gets her Syrio despite his view on gender roles, because her well-being is important to him

   c) He lets Jon decide his path for himself, respects his son's decision (even though I'm critical of that)

8. He is very empathetic towards all human beings, even the small folk, as we can see with his visit of the mother of Bobby's first child.  He doesn't treat her like an animal, just because she is a whore, but like a human being

9. He doesn't take killing lightly, values all human life. Even if it comes with a higher emotional cost for him.

10. he is very loyal and would have done anything for his family 

10. He treated Theon well.

11. He protected Jon with all he had and even risked harmony with his wife for it (generally I'm very critical of it and think Ned handled it the wrong way, but I think he wanted to do the right thing and also PLOT reasons lol)

12. He was never abusive towards anyone (IMO maybe a bit abusive towards Cat, but as a man from Westeros he had authority over his wife and probably just thought he would prevent DEAD CHILDREN and also wasn't a psychologist) There are only very few men, who never were. I'd say only Jon and Sam weren't for sure.

13. He let his kids keep the wolves and fought for Sansa's wolf, did not just see it as a pet and "just got her a dog"(- but he also sadly killed lady... oh well, he was a rule follower)

 

I'm sure some other things will come to mind later  

[Nagini's Neville]

You dislike Ned Hugor?

[Nagini's Neville]

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But theyre not real breadcrumbs

I agree. I think we often take things even the exact opposite way of how it was intended by GRRM, if it's not completely clear what he is talking about - which it usually isn't. And I think most of the stuff in asoiaf is intended to be subjective and stay subjective. So even if you disagree with GRRM, I think he would never tell you, you are wrong, at least not in many, many cases. There are of course just facts, that you can get wrong though.

But let's be honest, it is just fun for people, because we have nothing else to do and we are interested in GRRM and how his mind works lol

[Hugorfonics]

35 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You dislike Ned Hugor?

Intensely lol. But thanks for responding. Everyone I know, here and in life, thinks Neds a good guy but most wont give me a straight answer why, so I appreciate it 

38 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

1. He tried his best- in the way that he thought was best to protect all children (probably everyone under 16 or even a bit older, since he also protected Loras)

Theon would disagree (ill get to that later)

38 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 even the ones of his enemies like Dany .

But he didnt try to save to Dany. He said some words after the fact, sure. But thats too little, too late.

Resigning as Hand, refusing to be part of the council thatd murder a pregnant teenager is certainly not what a bad guy would do, but I expect more from a good guy

39 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 and Cersei's children, which I think is very moral and noble and just the right thing to do. And tbh there is only Davos, Jon and Sam, who try to do the same. With all other men of power children are not save or they have either already killed/hurt them or are responsible for dead children. IMO this is a very big deal

This is the same weak defense that most Tyrion fans resonate with the Imp. Not raping the child, like virtually every other character, would make him a good guy. Which is bullshit it just doesnt make him a rapist. 

Id also include Dany, Edmure, Brienne and Tyrion to the list. Varys and LSH too I guess

47 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

2. There are no signs, that he would forced his children into a marriage, they would have absolutely not agreed to

.

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there.

.

Id say that's a sign. Ned knows Aryas not like most girls, thats why she thriving under his dancemaster with one leg on the staircase. She reminds him of Lyanna, whos marriage prospects did not go smoothly.

Yet still, Arya pointblank asks the question can I be anything I want to be and Ned says no, you'll be a stay at home wife and mother

55 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

3. There are no signs, that he would have wanted his children to marry  before them coming of age (16), maybe even a bit later

4. He was not a rapist, it appears not even of his wife (which is horrible to have to say that, but yeah)

Again, Idk if any of this is in the ballpark of good guy territory. Like you say, shits horrible.

(And Catelyn was scared)

58 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

5. He respects all women much more than most other men of his world and position and doesn't view them as sexual objects, that he can just use for his own gratification and has given those values to his sons as well. He has taught them to value and respect women and not deal flippantly with their lives and the lives of potential children, just because they can and that they also have responsibility for their actions. He is loyal to his wife and doesn't visit brothels.

Idk if thats true. I dont think he gave the sex talk to any of his kids, Bran learned by watching two dogs go at it. Im pretty sure Robb married Jeyne out of fear of having a bastard, not because of the honor his father instated.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

6. He genuinely loves his wife and children and his whole family

Yea, but everyone in the world does. (Except like Tywin and them)

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

7. He is not solely an authoritarian ridged husband and father

   a) He values and trusts Cat's advice, thinks highly of her morally and intellectually

   b) He supports Arya and gets her Syrio despite his view on gender roles, because her well-being is important to him

   c) He lets Jon decide his path for himself, respects his son's decision (even though I'm critical of that)

a. She has good ideas sometimes, sure he can heed his wife's advice.

b. He thinks shes gonna give it up soon, and only hired Syrio because Arya blamed herself for Mychas death. Its a pitiful scene of a child confessing her "killing" because all she wanted to do was play sticks. So yea, props for Ned for not being a monster and buying her a new toy (I agree most wouldn't, although Brienne and that girl in Arianna twow) But after the fact, with Arya training on one leg Ned tells her she will not conform gender roles.

c. What! Damn right your critical. Tyrions like, did your dad tell you itll be shitty up there? And Jons like, its shitty up there?

Yo, fuck the NW and anyone who would send anyone there. (Although it's mad important lol, just horrible rules)

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

8. He is very empathetic towards all human beings, even the small folk, as we can see with his visit of the mother of Bobby's first child.  He doesn't treat her like an animal, just because she is a whore, but like a human being

I guess. He invites leaders of the smallfolk to dine with him sometimes, because its important to hear and be heard. Idk if thats empathy and not good ruling (which Ill give him here). But yea, hes nice to his bestfriends ex lover whos holding his kid.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

9. He doesn't take killing lightly, values all human life. Even if it comes with a higher emotional cost for him.

He kills someone in the first scene.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

10. he is very loyal and would have done anything for his family 

True. Loyal Ned, loyal sad Ned

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

10. He treated Theon well.

Do you really believe that? He was a hostage living his whole life in fear of Ice. Ned took the innocent child from his home and made him stand next to him every time he took the head of a deserter.

Ned only treated Theon well if you compare him to Ramsay

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

11. He protected Jon with all he had and even risked harmony with his wife for it (generally I'm very critical of it and think Ned handled it the wrong way, but I think he wanted to do the right thing and also PLOT reasons lol)

He did protect Jon. Ill give him that

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

12. He was never abusive towards anyone (IMO maybe a bit abusive towards Cat, but as a man from Westeros he had authority over his wife and probably just thought he would prevent DEAD CHILDREN and also wasn't a psychologist) There are only very few men, who never were. I'd say only Jon and Sam weren't for sure.

He scared her into submission, but yea, unfortunately it was probably for the best.

Abusive to anyone or abusive to women? Cuz Jon can be type abusive. Davos seems non abusive, unless you count adultery and never being there lol. Sandor too, as we see he'll only watch his brothers beat Sansa to death. Lol yea it's a low bar that Ned maybe passes

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

13. He let his kids keep the wolves and fought for Sansa's wolf, did not just see it as a pet and "just got her a dog"(- but he also sadly killed lady... oh well, he was a rule follower)

He did kill Lady. Yea rule follower to a tee. Its just frustrating because he was in the position to change the rules, twice.

But, yea, nice to let the kids keep them

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm sure some other things will come to mind later  

lmk

[Nagini's Neville]

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He scared her into submission, but yea, unfortunately it was probably for the best.

Abusive to anyone or abusive to women? Cuz Jon can be type abusive. Davos seems non abusive, unless you count adultery and never being there lol. Sandor too, as we see he'll only watch his brothers beat Sansa to death. Lol yea it's a low bar that Ned maybe passes

Abusive to anyone.

Who, how is Jon abusive to? What he did to Gilly... well...but he only does it to save a baby

Sandor is verbally quite abusive (threatening to kill someone, or hurt them badly, you know lol), also has killed innocent people before.

Didn't include Davos because we don't really know his life before Stannis so well and yeah cheating is kinda abusive, because wife is stuck with him and can't cheat back, without risking losing everything and endangering potential child- but in general don't think he the abusive type 

answer to the rest later.

Also me thinking Ned is a good guy, doesn't mean I think he didn't make mistakes or doesn't have weaknesses. There are two sides of the coin to a lot of things Ned did. Like it probably would be in rl with so much responsibility.

 

[The Green Bard]

7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I definitely think, that Ned was still a very good time appropriate father, that loved his children very much. But that doesn't change that he did the exact same mistakes Sansa made in regards to Joffrey. He had a very long time to figure stuff out and to change his mind and he then expected Sansa to do the same just by him saying so. Or he basically was just used to her always obeying and expected her to do it in this situation as well, just because he said so.

For me I got some pretty big pushback on a certain reread forum when I would question George making a decision here or there or question Ned.  I agree that he has all those good qualities, it's just that you take the good with the bad.  Certainly willful ignorance / denial is part of that.  To his credit though, he clearly makes the decision to back out of the betrothal, not too long after the discussion you quoted with Robert.  It may not have been quite fast enough, but he did make it and I think he needs credit for that.  

[Nagini's Neville]

16 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

For me I got some pretty big pushback on a certain reread forum when I would question George making a decision here or there or question Ned.  I agree that he has all those good qualities, it's just that you take the good with the bad.  Certainly willful ignorance / denial is part of that.  

Always asked myself, if it was really willful ignorance/ denial or if he simply really couldn't see certain things? The LF stuff is the most baffling to me. It says: He distrusted LF. But directly after he goes on to trust LF lol It's almost similar to Tyrion with Shae. With Cersei it's similar, I just don't understand, how he couldn't see it was enough to warn Cersei-he was giving her an advantage this way, but telling Robert afterwards would have been essential to protect himself, his family and people. he had responsibility to them as well. Cersei wasn't alone she had all Lannisters behind her and all the gold of Casterly Rock 

Quote

To his credit though, he clearly makes the decision to back out of the betrothal, not too long after the discussion you quoted with Robert.  It may not have been quite fast enough, but he did make it and I think he needs credit for that.  

When? As far as I remember he never ends the betrothal

[The Green Bard]

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Makes me wonder if he can't have children.

Yes, the thought has crossed my mind.  If he's a chimera, that might have something to do with it.  

 

Back to the Rogue Prince, I still go back and forth in my mind as to whether he is a maligned grey character, or a almost truly evil character.  Can't make up my mind.  

One reason I question  Nettles heritage is that she's presented as this poor kid, unwashed, etc.  but if she's that, how does she afford all these sheep that she feeds the dragon?  Are we supposed to assume she's finding wild sheep, stealing them, or buying them?  If buying them, that is why I wonder if she's a bastard with a benefactor.