Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 24 minutes ago, The Map Guy said: Let's review. You are a parent. You have your baby and it is safe. There is another stranger's baby in the same room. Plan #2 - You are told you to give up your own baby to protect BOTH babies. But you know there is no promise to that. One thing is guaranteed ... you will be separated from your own baby for a while ... may be forever if it dies. Plan #1 - You have your own baby, and it is already safe. As a parent ... which Plan will you pick? Now how much of an asshole is Jon, FORCING Gilly to pick Plan # 2. Yeah it's hard. Desperate times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Subduing a majority of the wildlings, launching a (failed) sneak attack on the southern side of the wall and then throwing his entire force of man spearwife and giants at CB Well yeah but that was just a battle, not a war. 7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: he? I dont remember that, if he did though thats kinda reassuring lol. In all seriousness I expect both kids to live I'm pretty sure he did. I'll look for the quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Map Guy Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Its not fair. But Melisandres magic is real and scary. Jon is the commander of those who guard the realms, hes got tough decisions. Yes, he IS the COMMANDER at Castle Black. He gives orders and sets policies. Even though he made stupid orders, not burning babies should probably be the easiest to enforce. He can just make a public announcement "No Burning Babies Here at Castle Black" and problem solved. Who would disagree, besides Mel? 8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: But Crasters no king, neither was Gillys sister. I mean who really knows how kingsblood works though Kingsblood = Targaryen blood It is stronger on the male side "The seed is strong" All the Baratheons have Kingsblood, but weaker because they are on the female side of the tree. Jon maintains the male DNA side Dany is from the male DNA side too (but any of her offsprings will have weaker Kingsblood.) Theory: Craster is Bloodraven's son Gilly's baby (Craster as father) has direct male Targaryen lineage Remember ... the concept of DNA does not care if your are royalty or a bastard. DNA is DNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winter daughter Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I'm just worried something will happen while he is 'dead' I'm more worried about poor Shireen. I think it's very possible that she'll be sacrificed by Mel to bring Jon back. Both of them are in danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, winter daughter said: I'm more worried about poor Shireen. I think it's very possible that she'll be sacrificed by Mel to bring Jon back. Both of them are in danger. Yeah, I've worried about this also. I think Shireen may be her first candidate & if not will definitely fall into her sights when she realizes the baby she has is not of Kings blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winter daughter Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Yeah, I've worried about this also. I think Shireen may be her first candidate & if not will definitely fall into her sights when she realizes the baby she has is not of Kings blood. hopefully she'll realize it before he is sacrificed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 2 hours ago, The Map Guy said: Let's review. You are a parent. You have your baby and it is safe. Err, no its not. Its so not-safe that you won't even give it a name for several years yet, as a measure of self-protection. But its safe from Mel, sure. Quote There is another stranger's baby in the same room. Not a stranger's baby. Mance, the King beyond the Wall's baby. That you are wetnursing. Quote Plan #2 - You are told you to give up your own baby to protect BOTH babies. But you know there is no promise to that. One thing is guaranteed ... you will be separated from your own baby for a while ... may be forever if it dies. Remember that whole not-naming thing? You need to get out of your own modern perspective and get into the character's skins a bit more, if you want to understand and assess actions and motivations. I'm not saying Gilly doesn't love her son. I'm acknowledging a different cultural paradigm is at work here. Quote Plan #1 - You have your own baby, and it is already safe. As a parent ... which Plan will you pick? Now how much of an asshole is Jon, FORCING Gilly to pick Plan # 2. Thats called command responsibility. Forcing people to do things they don't want to in order to create a better outcome than would happen if everyone acted only for their own benefit. In this case its not really that different from forcing anyone else to do something they don't like, because its the best plan in the wider scheme of things. Its a sad truth that although everyone deserves to be treated equally, and has equal intrinsic value in themselves, everyone is not equal in all respects.Monster Aemon Steelsong has more political and magical value (at least in perception=reality through actions) than Monster does. He is therefore at more risk, and needs more protection. Jon swaps babies because this gives the best overall outcomes, at least in his mind. Monster Aemon Steelsong gets a much more increased safety than Monster gets a decreased safety. Not only is the greater 'value' overall protected, but the overall level of protection increases. Further, should things go badly, Monster has protection that Monster Aemon Steelsong does not. Simply revealing the switch removes the falsely assigned value to Monster's death, giving him an extra layer of safety that Monster Aemon Steelsong cannot have in the same circumstances. Thinking like this is not easy. Not everyone can manage it. And its not always done perfectly either. Leaders are people too and make mistakes just like anyone else. But a 'team' with a 'leader' who can make hard decisions like this will always do better than a 'team' which cannot. The second team isn't really a team, just a bunch of individuals pulling their own way who happen to be aligned temporarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Map Guy Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 36 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said: And also as a relatively new Jon fan I don't wanna have to give up my new fond love for Jon so soon This would really break my heart. But than might be quite possible. I'm sorry for breaking your heart then. But I'm not a big fan on Jon. Its easy to forget that Jon makes terrible decisions. I'm sure a lot of you guys didn't notice this, but Jon has terrible first instincts. He is lucky to have friends to correct him. Joining the Night's Watch was overall a terrible decision ... then deserting the Night's Watch after Ned's death & having Sam call him back ... getting ready to die fighting the wildlings until Qhorin tells him to turncloak ... trying to not have sex because of his NW vows (what an idiot) & Ygritte had to set him straight. Aemon has helped Jon. Stannis have saved Jon from inevitable death in Mance's tent. Sam has helped Jon with the voting. He finally becomes Lord Commander and does this stupid baby swap. He created unpopular Wildling policies, wanted to go to Hardhome, and then wanted to pick a fight with Ramsay ... but Sam wasn't there this time to correct him ... and Jon gets assassinated by his own men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Intensely lol. But thanks for responding. Everyone I know, here and in life, thinks Neds a good guy but most wont give me a straight answer why, so I appreciate it that's weird. there are a lot of other stuff much harder to defend 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: But he didnt try to save to Dany. He said some words after the fact, sure. But thats too little, too late. Resigning as Hand, refusing to be part of the council thatd murder a pregnant teenager is certainly not what a bad guy would do, but I expect more from a good guy he is definitely not perfect, but at least he was vehemently against it, wasn't he? And that might have had a significant influence on Robert's final decision. Because he actually valued ned's input. And also who is a good guy to you in this series as far as i remember among your favorites are Tyrion and Theon lol now lets not bring up Theon and children... Also what could Ned have done better in this situation? He is not the King after all, but he repeatedly tried to convince Bobby. 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: This is the same weak defense that most Tyrion fans resonate with the Imp. Fair point, but there is actually no other character, that has raped a child or wanted to except for Drogo and the Mountain and his men and Rogue and they all play in the real dark villain league. While almost every other adult in this series has either abused, threatened, killed, tried to kill, intends to kill a child or is otherwise responsible for dead children. Raping children however IMO gets painted as the lowest of low- which is part of the reason why tyrion ends up not doing it. he is a grey character with real dark moments, but he is no Rogue. 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Id say that's a sign. Ned knows Aryas not like most girls, thats why she thriving under his dancemaster with one leg on the staircase. She reminds him of Lyanna, whos marriage prospects did not go smoothly. Yet still, Arya pointblank asks the question can I be anything I want to be and Ned says no, you'll be a stay at home wife and mother But that's still the reality for women at that time, isn't it? The truth is Arya can't become a high Septon. IMO that doesn't suggest, that he would force her into a marriage she would absolutely not want. Sure it suggests he thinks, hopes she will want to become a High lady someday and since she is only nine, it's not unreasonable to believe that. 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Yea, but everyone in the world does. (Except like Tywin and them) really? What about Robert? Sam's dad? Stannis? Viserys? Bolton? Ramsey? the mountain? Tyrion? Cersei? Sandor? (alright him is unfair lol) even Hoster did some real shit to his children 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Idk if thats true. I dont think he gave the sex talk to any of his kids, Bran learned by watching two dogs go at it. Im pretty sure Robb married Jeyne out of fear of having a bastard, not because of the honor his father instated. Kids learn more by observing parents behavior. Also Bran is just 7. Robb and Jon are 14, no reason to believe Ned might not have talked to them about that stuff. But I think they got it from observing how their father treats Cat and women in general. They might have noticed, if they father visited brothels- children often notice a lot about their parents and other lords would often grope serving wrenches and talk disrespectfully about women. Ned doesn't do that and surprise neither do Robb or Jon. As far as I remember Robb explicitly said it was about Jeyne's honor, of course having Jon as a bro might have played a sign. role as well 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: a. She has good ideas sometimes, sure he can heed his wife's advice. there are other men, who are much more dismissive towards their wives like Stannis and Robert. Ned treats Cat often as an intellectual equal. 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: b. He thinks shes gonna give it up soon, and only hired Syrio because Arya blamed herself for Mychas death. Its a pitiful scene of a child confessing her "killing" because all she wanted to do was play sticks. So yea, props for Ned for not being a monster and buying her a new toy (I agree most wouldn't, although Brienne and that girl in Arianna twow) to the bold Brienne's father did also try to push her into gender role for quite a long time. So we don't know how ned would have continued to raise Arya 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: c. What! Damn right your critical. Tyrions like, did your dad tell you itll be shitty up there? And Jons like, its shitty up there? IMO Ned should have just forbidden Jon to go, but I mean PLOT lol and also I think there is something to be said for ned being not a total dictator to his kids, when a lot of fathers are and he would have the right to. At least he cares, what his children want -to an extent 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: I guess. He invites leaders of the smallfolk to dine with him sometimes, because its important to hear and be heard. Idk if thats empathy and not good ruling (which Ill give him here). But yea, hes nice to his bestfriends ex lover whos holding his kid. He is a decent kind empathetic human being to her and it breaks his heart how young she is and how naive, how she still hopes Bobby might return to her 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: He kills someone in the first scene. Yeah, and I think it's definitely right to question and criticize that. Part of his weakness is that he is a rule follower like Sansa and Jon as well. I hope part of Jon's and Sansa's arc will be to break free from, that and use their own heads in that regard. Jon is already doing that, Sansa just needs to catch up now, kill LF and rescue SR Still Ned doesn't take killing lightly at all. He should have questioned the deserter at least and not be so rigid in his rule following, but you can't just have everyone turn craven and flee the wall. Ned probably didn't make the execute the deserters rule. 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Do you really believe that? He was a hostage living his whole life in fear of Ice. Ned took the innocent child from his home and made him stand next to him every time he took the head of a deserter. Ned only treated Theon well if you compare him to Ramsay lol he made his own sons do that as well - he didn't want to harm his sons that way either, did he? He did not mistreat Theon though. Theon is just a whiny narcissist. What was Ned to do? He had to take care of his people and make sure there wasn't a next war. He needed to keep halon in check. Taking a hostage is an effective way to do that. He raised him with his own sons - which was probably a bit stupid of him. Should have made clear to Robb: DON'T TRUST THE HOSTAGE 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: He scared her into submission, but yea, unfortunately it was probably for the best. I don't think she was really scared of him, but yeah he used his "right" to boss her around to make her shut up. Must be weird, when your partner suddenly turns into your parent 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Cuz Jon can be type abusive. Jon was messed up to Gilly and lil monster Is being a bully abusive? I never know how severe bullying is supposed to be? 7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: He did kill Lady. Yea rule follower to a tee. Its just frustrating because he was in the position to change the rules, twice. But, yea, nice to let the kids keep them yeah, the rule following is a bit of a problem- but the Great Ned must have weaknesses too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 27 minutes ago, winter daughter said: hopefully she'll realize it before he is sacrificed. weird she didn't notice it right away, when he swapped the babys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Map Guy Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 10 minutes ago, corbon said: You need to get out of your own modern perspective and get into the character's skins a bit more, if you want to understand and assess actions and motivations. I am talking on behalf of Gilly's perspective. Unless she is in imminent danger, which Gilly is not ... no mother will ever give up their own child to roll the dice to save another ... modern standards or Westerosi standards. It is EVIL to ever put a mother in that position. It is built into a mother's DNA to be a mother. The fAegon case where Elia baby-swaps Aegon for Aegon's safety is plausible. But for Gilly to baby-swap to put her own child in front of danger while she was never in danger is stupid. 19 minutes ago, corbon said: Jon swaps babies because this gives the best overall outcomes, at least in his mind. Monster gets a much more increased safety than Gb gets a decreased safety. Not only is the greater 'value' overall protected, but the overall level of protection increases. Further, should things go badly, Gb has protection that Monster does not. Simply revealing the switch removes the falsely assigned value to Gb's death, giving him an extra layer of safety that Monster cannot have in the same circumstances. I understand the point you are trying to make, but I disagree 100% for Gilly's sake. Mance attacked the Wall and lost. Dalla give birth and died. Mance was a recent enemy, and will be executed soon. This future orphan has a bad fate coming. Don't tamper with the fate of another child (who is safe and has a mother) to balance the scales for the doomed orphan. There are other alternatives, especially for the Commander of Castle Black. The more I think of it, the baby swap is a terrible idea ... the only way it would be more plausible if Jon had a inner deeper subconscious motive of trying to get into Val's pants ... by impressing her with saving her nephew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winter daughter Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 19 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said: Jon is already doing that, Sansa just needs to catch up now, kill LF and rescue SR Amen sister. I've had enough of LF's creepy obsession with her and those fatherly kisses but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon since he is one of the main villains of the story and it seems like he is far from finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Map Guy said: I am talking on behalf of Gilly's perspective. Unless she is in imminent danger, which Gilly is not ... no mother will ever give up their own child to roll the dice to save another ... modern standards or Westerosi standards. It is EVIL to ever put a mother in that position. It is built into a mother's DNA to be a mother. I understand the point you are trying to make, but I disagree 100% for Gilly's sake. Sure, but the commentary was on Jon, not Gilly. 2 minutes ago, The Map Guy said: The more I think of it, the baby swap is a terrible idea ... the only way it would be more plausible if Jon had a inner deeper subconscious motive of trying to get into Val's pants ... by impressing her with saving her nephew. And here you are putting it back on Jon again. You can;t argue from Gilly's perspective and put that onto Jon's decision making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Map Guy Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 1 minute ago, corbon said: And here you are putting it back on Jon again. You can;t argue from Gilly's perspective and put that onto Jon's decision making. Jon's decision-making should also incorporate what others feel about his decisions. The fact that he doesn't do this is why he was assassinated. He stripped a baby from a perfectly safe and healthy mother, and separated them whole a continent away ... while increasing that baby's 0% chance of death .... to ~50%. All he needed to do was to make a "No Burning Baby" policy at Castle Black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Well yeah but that was just a battle, not a war. If he won the battle it would start his war against the south (the North lol) 1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I'm pretty sure he did. I'll look for the quote. Cool 1 hour ago, The Map Guy said: Yes, he IS the COMMANDER at Castle Black. He gives orders and sets policies. Even though he made stupid orders, not burning babies should probably be the easiest to enforce. He can just make a public announcement "No Burning Babies Here at Castle Black" and problem solved. Who would disagree, besides Mel? He doesnt want to take that risk. If Mel disagrees she can still burn the kid. Orders are easy to disobey, obstacles are not 1 hour ago, The Map Guy said: Kingsblood = Targaryen blood It is stronger on the male side "The seed is strong" All the Baratheons have Kingsblood, but weaker because they are on the female side of the tree. Jon maintains the male DNA side Dany is from the male DNA side too (but any of her offsprings will have weaker Kingsblood.) Theory: Craster is Bloodraven's son Gilly's baby (Craster as father) has direct male Targaryen lineage Remember ... the concept of DNA does not care if your are royalty or a bastard. DNA is DNA. Why does the seed is strong have to do with non Baratheon looks? Wheres the connection between that and magically weak female genes? Even if thats true, (why do you think that?) Mances son was born a prince while Gillys baby was not born under the Unworthy. The blood is diluted now, although if its Crasters family maybe not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 1 minute ago, The Map Guy said: Jon's decision-making should also incorporate what others feel about his decisions. Incorporate, but not be ruled by. I'm certain Gilly's feelings were incorporated in his decision making. They are just not as highly weighted as other factors. 'Feelings' are a truly awful way to make decisions. Even your own. Weighing 'feelings' lower than other things is why we don't all east ice-cream 10 times a day, for example. 1 minute ago, The Map Guy said: He stripped a baby from a perfectly safe and healthy mother, and separated them whole a continent away ... while increasing that baby's 0% chance of death .... to ~50%. Leaving aside that your numbers are wildly mis-stated, that ignores that Monster's oops, I've been getting the name wrong way round, sorry, Aemon Steelsong's chance just went from ~50%++ to 0%. 50%++ because it has to be recognised that Monster's chances of surviving Mel are significantly better than Aemon Steelsong's, given that in time, earlier if necessary, Jon can just tell Mel about the swap and her interest in Monster drops back to your putative 0 value. As a Commander, Jon is responsible for both Monster and Aemon Steelsong. Arguing that one person/baby's odds have decreased while ignoring that the other's have increased is not looking at the whole picture. 1 minute ago, The Map Guy said: All he needed to do was to make a "No Burning Baby" policy at Castle Black. You think there isn't one already? At least in effect? You think that would really stop Mel? Of course not. Mel will do what Mel wants to do. The only that that will stop her is her understanding that her actions won;t have the consequences she is expecting. Thats the card Jon is keeping back for now. He can't play it too early, though he might have if it became necessary, because he needed the switch to be unpreventable before it was revealed. And as long as it goes unrevealed, other potential victims are protected. If Mel thinks she has this card up her sleeve still, she's not looking for another option (victim) to prepare. Yes, there's a risk Mel could do something before Jon can tell her. Thats a risk he has to weigh and balance vs the advantages of not telling her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: He was a bully when he first got to the NW, and now in ADWD goes a little too hard in training for my liking. Theres also that scene where hes choking Alliser like Vader on the "ambassador ship". wow really? can't remember... somehow I've forgotten all the details even though I've just reread ADWD Jon chapters. I was an athlete in school so I just thought he was being a normal coach lol abuse is normal 5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Yea he runs his mouth alot, calling Arya a bitch and whatnot. and threatened to kill Sansa 3 times, held a blade at her throat 2 times, grabs her and doesn't let her go, asked her if she remembered "the dance her father did, when his head came of his shoulders" kidnapped Arya and doesn't tell her for a couple of days (if I remember correctly) he is not bringing her back to KL, while all the time she is afraid for her life- that is such an asshole move IMO, he really doesn't care, if someone fears for their life. And he only tells her in the end to mock her, how she doesn't "know anything anyway" after she doesn't believe him, that Sansa sang for him. He also constantly threatens violence on her: he'll bring her to the silent sisters-they'll rip her tongue out; he'll rip her tongue out himself; if she won't shut up, he'll beat her so badly she wished he'd killed her... calling her bitch is kinda harmless in comparison - at least that has something to do with wolf lol 5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: I think if we're to blame Sandor for Mycha (which we should) we need to blame Ned for the deserter he killed too Honestly I always find it interesting ppl are so upset about Mycah, because the Hound didn't even know him or saw what he did. He was probably only told this guy tried to kill the crown prince and as his bodyguard, it's kind of his job to execute that boy. Would Barry have refused? Could you just have refused that order? And how many innocent Mycahs died, because Robb didn't bend the knee? Probably way more, than the Hound has ever killed. 5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: But I wouldnt call him an abuser either, just an attempted murderer lol 5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Take your time. And ty happy to help out, that you can finally have your fight with a Ned defender lol Quote True. My biggest criticism is Ned ran away from responsibility thusly leaving it in immoral hands you mean the first time he quit being the hand? Because after that I wouldn't call it "run away"- but whatever works for you lol you english speakers also say "gone" after all 5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: I also never see him truly standing up for whats right, he just kinda complains about it. He doesnt save anyone, unlike Davos Tyrion Sansa Dany Edmure etc. I want my good guys to do good not just wish it Not everyone can be Sansa *sigh* and Dany and Edmure and lil demon monkey lol There weren't so many opportunities to save someone for him though. What could he have done in Dany's case, he wasn't the king after all- I think his opinion convinced bobby in the end. He was always his conscience I believe. He saved Sansa And Ty is not good just because he saved one lil fake Targ and stopped one beating, just because he walked by- he also could have done good earlier, being the hand, suspecting Joff didn't treat Sansa well, Jorah shouldn't have been saved lol he's a creep- to many creeps in Westeros already, the saddle for my boy Bran....was nice at least Ned didn't do all the bad Tyrion did. 4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: True. I like hearing your input and seeing how your mind works too, and frankly, your no George lol. YoU DoN't KnOW Me!!!! I'm just hiding my genius so you won't feel inferior, I often intimidate ppl with my intellect- so I've learned to stoop to their level to not hurt their fragile egos and keep the dialogue going. Having to use this primitive language helps with the task Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 59 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said: weird she didn't notice it right away, when he swapped the babys Val thinks she knows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 @Nagini's Neville, I didn’t make myself clear, apologies. I meant that Val thinks Mel knows about the baby switcheroo. ADwD, Jon VIII “This is farewell, then,” she said, almost playfully. Jon Snow was in no mood for it. It is too cold and dark to play, and the hour is too late. “Only for a time. You will return. For the boy, if for no other reason.” “Craster’s son?” Val shrugged. “He is no kin to me.” “I have heard you singing to him.” “I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?” A faint smile brushed her lips. “It makes him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster.” “Monster?” “His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother’s sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: @Nagini's Neville, I didn’t make myself clear, apologies. I meant that Val thinks Mel knows about the baby switcheroo. ADwD, Jon VIII “This is farewell, then,” she said, almost playfully. Jon Snow was in no mood for it. It is too cold and dark to play, and the hour is too late. “Only for a time. You will return. For the boy, if for no other reason.” “Craster’s son?” Val shrugged. “He is no kin to me.” “I have heard you singing to him.” “I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?” A faint smile brushed her lips. “It makes him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster.” “Monster?” “His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother’s sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.” Ha, I thought I remembered "Mel knowing" so it was Val, who put that idea in my head. Thank you! Honestly, would be weird, if out of all the things Mel wouldn't notice that. Since even a very attentive human without magic could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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