Unconventional opinions dumpsterfire of a thread

[Lady Topspin]

On 4/19/2020 at 6:29 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Man Aerys was a really busy boy. Plus he must have had a really long schlong to impregnate Lyanna in the Tower of Joy all the way from KL.

Lyanna had an elongated vertical chin but she was not a tree.  I know the Starks are as boring as a bald cypress in the middle of a swamp.  They're still not trees though.  Lyanna was not rooted to that tower.  She could have been taken in the red keep and Aerys had his way with her.  He did it for political reasons.  To ruin the Stark+Baratheon union.

[Nagini's Neville]

On 17. April 2020 at 8:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

But to try to be clear yet again - I've no issues with George giving characters strange and weird and freak romances. I merely expressed my dislike for people shipping such romances when they did not take place yet. I'm not much into shipping business myself, but I find it very strange behavior to ship fictitional characters who should not be together if the world were just.

I'm also no shipper, I'm interested to find out what story GRRM has intended no matter what it will be  I don't have a specific wish list of what should happen, except maybe the Stark kids reuniting and being really close and supportive of one another, but if that's not part of the story, then it's not meant to be. But I definitely don't have an issue with ppl shipping fictional characters, even if it's Sansa and LF. I'll express my dislike for it and move on. It's fiction after all  

On 17. April 2020 at 8:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

That said - I certainly see the clues that are there, but I prefer that to read this as the awakening of Sansa's sexuality and the development of the kind of man she might prefer when she makes a choice in the future.

would be better

On 17. April 2020 at 8:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

Not as the groundwork or foundation for some kind of relationship. Not every person you may have the hots for is going to fuck you.

Sure, however in story like ASOIAF you don't have the time to just explore every little meaningless fantasy you would have irl. It's the same with dreams, they all mean something

GRRM has invested a  lot into the Hound-Sansa dynamic from the start and kept it consistently going without there being an apparent reason for it. The Hound is not truly an important character. But just because there is symbolism, romantically coded tropes or the Unkiss doesn't necessarily mean it is supposed to become a love story or that Sandor will even turn into a "good guy". It is just a theory. 

On 17. April 2020 at 8:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

The guy is just brutal murderer whose very own obsession with this 'singing bird' is by no means clear ... there is a tenderness there, but also a clear sexual obsession, something that's very wrong for a man his age. Even if one gives the pedo sex obsession a pass, it is completely unhealthy to have a sexual or romantic relationship you bonded with while threatening her with death and while you were one of her gaolers. This would even be wrong if Sansa was sixteen or even twenty.

The Hound is a messed up child murderer- no question about that. And he is abusive towards Sansa. Reason enough to want this for her. Don't know however, if being attracted to her would be wrong in universe for a man his age. They seem to not care about the man's age. The legal age to marry as a girl was 12 in the MA and even though marriages were usually not consummated at 12/13 maidens were definitely sexualized and lusted after a lot. Even though Lucrezia Borgia was married at 13 and didn't live with her husband until she would be older, there were poems about her lovely appearance (including her bosom looked) ever since she had been 12.

IMO for the Hound it is much more about her affection, than anything else. He kinda uses Sansa as his therapist and ppl often fall in love with their therapist. But I think Sandor is actually quite aware, that Sansa is still to young for that sort of attention, which is not the case for a lot of other men, or they just don't care.

On 17. April 2020 at 8:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

I prefer Sansa to have story of emancipation - which also includes to overcome all the nonsense she had to go through at KL - which means that she would take sufficient pages out Littlefinger's book to take control of her own life and the people around her without becoming a psychopath herself.

agreed. I hope that will happen!

On 17. April 2020 at 8:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

And it is clearly a similar thing with Gendry-Arya - they are young and stuck together and so things start to develop there. But this is not a kind of attraction that would play out if they were meeting/interacting under different circumstances.

 

IMO it is similar with Arya and Gendry. There are some romantically coded tropes, that IMO could to be foreshadowing. But Arya doesn't have any romantic feelings for Gendry yet. You get more the feeling he might have some for her, which is even a bit weirder, than Sandor having some for Sansa IMO, since she is only 10 and isn't supposed to look "womanly" at all yet. And Gendry is 16 already.

On 17. April 2020 at 8:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

In Arya's case a proper sexual relationship during the books is out of the question - she might continue to use sex as means to murder people, one imagines, but I don't ever see her having any sort of healthy romantic or sexual relationship. She is barely eleven, after all. And even if she were older - her entire character is set on defying female stereotypes. Which in my opinion should include both romance and marriage.

maybe in the epilogue, defying female stereotypes does not necessarily mean she can never experience love or will have to compromise. After the war with the other a lot might be different in Westeros. And she might just also only need the right man to be able to say herself. I wouldn't exclude it.

[Vaith]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

The same thing can be acceptable/normal or not acceptable/not normal, based on circumstances. For example, being clan in a skimpy bikini, while you are sunbathing on a beach, is normal/acceptable. But inviting into your house a mailman or a pizza-delivery-guy, while all you are wearing is lingerie, is not acceptable/normal, even if that lingerie is less skimpy than a bikini. In Slaver's Bay it's normal to wear tokars that bare breasts. Which doesn't make that sort of intentional nakedness to be a norm in the rest of Essos or in Westeros.

For a female, parading in her pajama thru shared dormitory, would be a norm. While for Dany to invite Jorah, the guy who told her that he loves her (he said that she looks like his ex-wife, whom he loved very much; after Drogo's death he offered for the two of them together to go to Asshai, without her remaining Dothraki; he nearly offered himself as one of her husbands, who will become dragonrider alongside her), while all she's wearing is a pelt, that constantly falling off her, is not normal/acceptable. Unless she wanted to seduce him. OR she's so stupid, that she didn't even realised, that inviting into her bedroom a guy, who is in love with her, could be read by him as a sort of invitation, considering that she was nearly naked, and didn't even bothered with putting on some clothes, prior letting him into her room.

I don't think that she thought, that while they are together in her room, that he will ignore her near nakedness, or his want of her, because they are friends, and he's supposed to have self control. We do know that she didn't thought nothing at all about that situation, because that chapter was told from her POV. And we do know that for her it was a total surprise, when he pounced on her. That's because she is that stupid/careless/unable to read circumstances/has no intellectual finesse to read the mood.

It is true that she was very smart about some things, like taking over Balerion and going to Slaver's Bay instead of going to Illyrio, or ordering to her newly-bought Unsullied to attack their ex-masters, etc. But it's also true that she was very stupid about a lot of other things. She's stupid/ignorant about a lot of things. That's my unconventional opinion about her as a character.

If the situation is so important, then I suppose we should take into account that Daenerys was in the middle of one of the harshest deserts in the known world, and I sort of understand why propriety about clothing wouldn't be at the top of her mental list right there when she was talking to a trusted advisor and ally.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

I do believe that Lyanna is the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but I can't imagine how a young girl could convincingly portray a grown knight, without anyone noticing that something is wrong. 

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I do believe that Lyanna is the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but I can't imagine how a young girl could convincingly portray a grown knight, without anyone noticing that something is wrong. 

Remember how the KotLT is described?

“It was the little crannogman, I bet.”
“No one knew,” said Meera, “but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face.”

 

[AryaRegina]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO it is similar with Arya and Gendry. There are some romantically coded tropes, that IMO could to be foreshadowing. But Arya doesn't have any romantic feelings for Gendry yet. You get more the feeling he might have some for her, which is even a bit weirder, than Sandor having some for Sansa IMO, since she is only 10 and isn't supposed to look "womanly" at all yet. And Gendry is 16 already.

Gendry isn't 16 yet as of his last appearance in AFFC, though he might be 16 in TWOW, but when he travelled with Arya he was around 13/14, maybe 15.

We get this from Brienne's chapters:

"Renly Baratheon had been more than a king to her. She had loved him since first he came to Tarth on his leisurely lord's progress, to mark his coming of age."
-Brienne I, AFFC

"Brienne turned, and saw a ghost.
Renly. No hammerblow to the heart could have felled her half so hard. "My lord?" she gasped.
"Lord?" The boy pushed back a lock of black hair that had fallen across his eyes. "I'm just a smith."
He is not Renly, Brienne realized. Renly is dead. Renly died in my arms, a man of one-and-twenty. This is a only a boy. A boy who looked as Renly had, the first time he came to Tarth. No, younger. His jaw is squarer, his brows bushier. Renly had been lean and lithe, whereas this boy had the heavy shoulders and muscular right arm so often seen on smiths. He wore a long leather apron, but under it his chest was bare. A dark stubble covered his cheeks and chin, and his hair was a thick black mop that grew down past his ears. King Renly's hair had been that same coal black, but his had always been washed and brushed and combed. Sometimes he cut it short, and sometimes he let it fall loose to his shoulders, or tied it back behind his head with a golden ribbon, but it was never tangled or matted with sweat. And though his eyes had been that same deep blue, Lord Renly's eyes had always been warm and welcoming, full of laughter, whereas this boy's eyes brimmed with anger and suspicion."
-Brienne VII, AFFC

"Gendry was the closest thing to a man grown"
-Brienne VII, AFFC

So Gendry, while big and strong for his age, is still visibly younger than Renly at 16, and Brienne, who is only around 20 herself, calls him a "boy", and "closest thing to a man grown". So he is probably 15, maybe even as young as 14.

Ned assumed he was around Robb's age, but that was his first impressions, and as already said, Gendry is tall and strong for his age.

"The master called over a tall lad about Robb's age, his arms and chest corded with muscle. "This is Lord Stark, the new Hand of the King," he told him as the boy looked at Ned through sullen blue eyes and pushed back sweat-soaked hair with his fingers. Thick hair, shaggy and unkempt and black as ink. The shadow of a new beard darkened his jaw. "This is Gendry. Strong for his age, and he works hard. Show the Hand that helmet you made, lad." Almost shyly, the boy led them to his bench, and a steel helm shaped like a bull's head, with two great curving horns."
-Eddard VI, AGOT

Arya thinks he looks "almost" a man grown

"Gendry rode out from behind the cottage wall, and behind him Hot Pie, leading her horse. In his chainmail shirt with a sword in his hand, Gendry looked almost a man grown, and dangerous."
-Arya II, ASOS

Arya thinks he is five years older than her, so 15 to her 10,  but she might be guessing like Ned, and we know she's guessing about the height difference, since in ASOS Arya is around 4 feet.

"Arya had to scamper to keep up. Gendry was five years older and a foot taller than she was, and long of leg as well."
-Arya V, ACOK

So he's not 16 yet, he's definetly younger than Jon and Robb, most likely younger than Dany, maybe just a little bit older than Joffrey? Who knows, I don't think even Gendry knows his own age to be honest.
Sorry for this long reply to your short aside, but I'd already been thinking about Gendry's age, and this was as fine a time to share them as any other

EDIT: Forgot to mention GRRM saying Arya and Gendry were still "very young" at the Balticon Dinner

"Me: So Arya and Gendry, I felt like there were many romantic undertones between them in the books. Are you building towards something between them? Are you planning on developing a future relationship?..

GRRM: *smiling* I’m going to visit them again, but I’m not spoiling everything for you. They are still very young."
-The Fattest Leech, source

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm also no shipper, I'm interested to find out what story GRRM has intended no matter what it will be  I don't have a specific wish list of what should happen, except maybe the Stark kids reuniting and being really close and supportive of one another, but if that's not part of the story, then it's not meant to be. But I definitely don't have an issue with ppl shipping fictional characters, even if it's Sansa and LF. I'll express my dislike for it and move on. It's fiction after all  

Well, it isn't my greatest issue in the world or something like that. Just a part of the fandom that caused me to raise both my eyebrows once in a while.

I doubt that the Starks will end up supporting each other that - Bran might end up supporting everybody, of course, but Sansa and Arya and Rickon aren't exactly close nor are they likely to enjoy being around each other again.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

would be better

Sure, however in story like ASOIAF you don't have the time to just explore every little meaningless fantasy you would have irl. It's the same with dreams, they all mean something

Sure, and I'm not saying this stuff doesn't mean anything. But as I said, the meaning could be to lay the groundwork for Sansa's future choices and, of course, for an internal change in Sandor Clegane who might not end up being hanged with his entrails hanging out (as he should) but rather dying for some noble cause. I mean, my idea of him coming back into the story would be an anointed knight joining the Warrior's Sons. The Seven saved him from certain death by means of the Elder Brother, so he may have finally abandoned his nihilistic view of the world and found a worthy cause to fight for.

He might also meet Sansa again eventually, but they should have gotten both over each other at that point.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

GRRM has invested a  lot into the Hound-Sansa dynamic from the start and kept it consistently going without there being an apparent reason for it. The Hound is not truly an important character. But just because there is symbolism, romantically coded tropes or the Unkiss doesn't necessarily mean it is supposed to become a love story or that Sandor will even turn into a "good guy". It is just a theory. 

See above. And I'd not agree that Sandor isn't an important character. He is an important secondary character who is introduced as a guy we should look out since the moment he arrives at Winterfell.

My issues are not so much with people who point out clues that are there, but with people overinterpreting them and using all that to spin a narrative of a romance ... or a romance to be in the future.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The Hound is a messed up child murderer- no question about that. And he is abusive towards Sansa. Reason enough to want this for her. Don't know however, if being attracted to her would be wrong in universe for a man his age. They seem to not care about the man's age. The legal age to marry as a girl was 12 in the MA and even though marriages were usually not consummated at 12/13 maidens were definitely sexualized and lusted after a lot. Even though Lucrezia Borgia was married at 13 and didn't live with her husband until she would be older, there were poems about her lovely appearance (including her bosom looked) ever since she had been 12.

Sansa is eleven back in AGoT and only turns a year older throughout that book. That aside, Sandor is the sworn shield of Sansa's betrothed. He is the equivalent of a Kingsguard hitting on the queen. Sandor commits a crime that should have gotten him hanged immediately during his first interaction with Sansa - he threatens to kill the daughter of the Hand and the betrothed of the Crown Prince if she doesn't do as he says.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO for the Hound it is much more about her affection, than anything else. He kinda uses Sansa as his therapist and ppl often fall in love with their therapist. But I think Sandor is actually quite aware, that Sansa is still to young for that sort of attention, which is not the case for a lot of other men, or they just don't care.

There are quite a few hints as to how he desires her sexually - he comes to her in the night of the battle to rape her, not to save her. He has enough sense to not touch her while he is Joff's bodyguard and later his Kingsguard, but he still gets very close.

In my personal opinion Littlefinger and Sandor are basically the same character - one is the muscle, the other is the brain. They both were the same idealistic child and life burned them differently (Sandor get the worst of it, of course). And Sansa reminds them both of themselves as children and of what they once believed in (in Littlefinger this is even more messed due to all the Cat stuff, of course, but you get the idea).

But if cut away all the symbolic and the childhood memory stuff sexual desire and obsession remain.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO it is similar with Arya and Gendry. There are some romantically coded tropes, that IMO could to be foreshadowing. But Arya doesn't have any romantic feelings for Gendry yet. You get more the feeling he might have some for her, which is even a bit weirder, than Sandor having some for Sansa IMO, since she is only 10 and isn't supposed to look "womanly" at all yet. And Gendry is 16 already.

Overall I'd say this is just the result of a bunch of young people being stuck with each for a longer period of time. Eventually some attraction and sexual desires will manifest themselves somehow. But that could just as well happened between Hot Pie and Arya if they had been the two who spent more time with each other.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

maybe in the epilogue, defying female stereotypes does not necessarily mean she can never experience love or will have to compromise. After the war with the other a lot might be different in Westeros. And she might just also only need the right man to be able to say herself. I wouldn't exclude it.

Well, something like a ten page Epilogue touching on what happened in the years and decades after the story isn't going to give us a proper pictures of those characters.

Even if Arya ended up in some sort of relationship she is not going to be one who is going to stuck with a person she met while she was ten years old and on the run. If one wants nonsense where people marry their childhood sweethearts there is always Harry Potter.

But I doubt she will because relationship and marriage in this world really fuck up women - and Arya is not the kind of person who is going to allow anyone to do that to her. Not after what she went through.

[Nagini's Neville]

12 minutes ago, AryaRegina said:

Gendry isn't 16 yet as of his last appearance in AFFC, though he might be 16 in TWOW, but when he travelled with Arya he was around 13/14, maybe 15.

We get this from Brienne's chapters:

"Renly Baratheon had been more than a king to her. She had loved him since first he came to Tarth on his leisurely lord's progress, to mark his coming of age."
-Brienne I, AFFC

"Brienne turned, and saw a ghost.
Renly. No hammerblow to the heart could have felled her half so hard. "My lord?" she gasped.
"Lord?" The boy pushed back a lock of black hair that had fallen across his eyes. "I'm just a smith."
He is not Renly, Brienne realized. Renly is dead. Renly died in my arms, a man of one-and-twenty. This is a only a boy. A boy who looked as Renly had, the first time he came to Tarth. No, younger. His jaw is squarer, his brows bushier. Renly had been lean and lithe, whereas this boy had the heavy shoulders and muscular right arm so often seen on smiths. He wore a long leather apron, but under it his chest was bare. A dark stubble covered his cheeks and chin, and his hair was a thick black mop that grew down past his ears. King Renly's hair had been that same coal black, but his had always been washed and brushed and combed. Sometimes he cut it short, and sometimes he let it fall loose to his shoulders, or tied it back behind his head with a golden ribbon, but it was never tangled or matted with sweat. And though his eyes had been that same deep blue, Lord Renly's eyes had always been warm and welcoming, full of laughter, whereas this boy's eyes brimmed with anger and suspicion."
-Brienne VII, AFFC

"Gendry was the closest thing to a man grown"
-Brienne VII, AFFC

So Gendry, while big and strong for his age, is still visibly younger than Renly at 16, and Brienne, who is only around 20 herself, calls him a "boy", and "closest thing to a man grown". So he is probably 15, maybe even as young as 14.

Ned assumed he was around Robb's age, but that was his first impressions, and as already said, Gendry is tall and strong for his age.

"The master called over a tall lad about Robb's age, his arms and chest corded with muscle. "This is Lord Stark, the new Hand of the King," he told him as the boy looked at Ned through sullen blue eyes and pushed back sweat-soaked hair with his fingers. Thick hair, shaggy and unkempt and black as ink. The shadow of a new beard darkened his jaw. "This is Gendry. Strong for his age, and he works hard. Show the Hand that helmet you made, lad." Almost shyly, the boy led them to his bench, and a steel helm shaped like a bull's head, with two great curving horns."
-Eddard VI, AGOT

Arya thinks he looks "almost" a man grown

"Gendry rode out from behind the cottage wall, and behind him Hot Pie, leading her horse. In his chainmail shirt with a sword in his hand, Gendry looked almost a man grown, and dangerous."
-Arya II, ASOS

Arya thinks he is five years older than her, so 15 to her 10,  but she might be guessing like Ned, and we know she's guessing about the height difference, since in ASOS Arya is around 4 feet.

"Arya had to scamper to keep up. Gendry was five years older and a foot taller than she was, and long of leg as well."
-Arya V, ACOK

So he's not 16 yet, he's definetly younger than Jon and Robb, most likely younger than Dany, maybe just a little bit older than Joffrey? Who knows, I don't think even Gendry knows his own age to be honest.
Sorry for this long reply to your short aside, but I'd already been thinking about Gendry's age, and this was as fine a time to share them as any other

yes you are right. not yet 16 sorry.

wiki says Gendry was born 284 AC while Arya was born 289 AC, so I guess 4 or 5 years older

[James West]

Cersei, Catelyn, Barristan, Victarion, Myrcella, Doran, Tommen, Walder, Sansa, Bowen, Stannis, Aegon, Jaime, and Euron will die in The Winds of Winter.  Jon will die and come back as a wight.  

The Doom was caused by fire experiments gone wrong.  The poisoned atmosphere of Asshai is the result from a magic experiment gone horribly wrong.  

Dany, Tyrion, and Missandei will be the dragon riders.

I've said this before, I'll say it again.  The Starks are shitheads. 

Gerold Dayne will become the next sword of the morning.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Map Guy]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think you did fine explaining your ideas earlier, but thanks for explaining further. 

Welcome. My mind is full of wild ideas that make sense to me. I realize when I present it to people, they don't always understand right away. I try to spend a little extra time working on the presentation before I post, if I have the time. I always find myself mispelling words and misrepresenting my ideas. My mind thinks faster than I can type.

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, here we have my first issue w/ this... as you say, the whole thing is based on quite a few assumptions.

Aren't a lot theories based on assumptions? R+L=J is an assumption. And there other plenty of Youtube theorists that uses multiple assumptions to come to a conclusion. I just use them here to support the a general theme.

The other thing is that I make fresh assumptions, things people haven't heard yet. You'll probably hear 100 versions of R+L=J and most of them has Jon ending up on the Iron Throne or at least riding a dragon. These assumptions have become boring. At the same time, after hearing it 100 times, it has become the norm and the expected.

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

R+L=J&M - this one I don’t see at all. I don’t think there are any hints or clues in the text that support it. Furthermore, I don’t remember it being a thing before the abomination. I could be misremembering, of course. The main point though is the absolute lack of textual support for it. 

You are entitled to your opinions.
But since I am the lone voice for R+L=J&M, I am saying it now ... once TWOW officially introduces R+L=J&M, R+L=J only believers are not welcomed to the parade! You guys will be in the loser column along with N+A=J, B+A=J, Starkcest, baby swap, and other TOJ teams. 

In the past, I have noticed some newbies here in this forum that have tried to push the R+L=J&M agenda too, but the forum just gives them silence. But those newbies are welcomed to our parade 

I have also noticed that when people take a survey, they are asked "Who are Jon Snow's parents?" ... which is a cheap way of dodging the real question "What happened at TOJ?"

I have done everything I can for R+L=J&M. I have given the origin story with overwhelming evidence (conventional and non-conventional).

I even gave you guys a specific ending before Season 8 even came out.

I have an even bigger R+L=J&M theory (that is not Top Secret Theory) reserved for people willing to convert ... willing to come to the Dark Side!

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Bloodraven + wildling woman = Craster - as above, there is nothing in the text hinting at this, nothing, nada, zero, zip. You want it to be true b/c it fits w/ your idea, and that’s all there is to it as far as I can tell. 

In regards to Bloodraven+WildlingWoman=Craster, I got that straight up from Top Secret Theory. I learned that Bloodraven is a villain that has a partnership with the Others. And from the books, Craster has a partnership with the Others too. I did the math and background check ... and yup ... there is a high probability that they are father and son. BUT they have to be the bad guys.

Now I blend two non-mainstream theories: R+L=J&M and the bad guys Bloodraven & Craster ... and I try to develop a story and motive.
I came to the conclusion that Bloodraven's first priority was never about Bran ... it was about Meera.
From here, I wrote a fan fiction on how the story will naturally play out, driven by themes ... and it is AWESOME!!

I made several changes from the original draft though. Three-Eyed Monkey accidentally help me swap swords to Longclaw for the final scene. Season 8 has helped me add bells to the final song.

In the future, I also plan to tackle on A+J=J&C after discovering a massive twist that no other A+J=J&C theorists have found. 

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

In the paragraph above this one you say, “The game of thrones have been played by people with Targaryen blood. We have the entire Targaryen Dynasty (M-Targ), the Baratheon Usurpation (F-Targ), and the Targaryen-Lannister Infiltration (M-Targ)”, and here you say “other people who want the Iron Throne includes Stannis & Renly Baratheon (F-Targ)”. I’m a bit confused, why are the Baratheons featured in both examples? Again, it’s a very minor thing.

The grandmother of Robert, Stannis and Renly is Rhaelle Targaryen. They have F-Targ blood.
In regards to why I have two example sets: The first set are pre-ASOIAF events. The second set are ASOIAF events.

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not so sure about the trueborn/bastard distinction. You say this is the “political side” of the coin, and we know for a fact that bastards can be legitimised. 

Yes, this is why Daemon Blackfrye and Brynden Rivers feel entitled to the Iron Throne ... via the Blackfrye Rebellion and Dark Sister Rebellion.
In regards to Joffrey ... he is publicly known as a legitimate Baratheon F-Targ, earning Robert's throne. But in reality, he is a M-Targ Targaryen bastard.

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Quote

The Targ-Lannister blood have infiltrated the Iron Throne. And so far, the Targ-Lannisters have been working on the monarchy side of the Targaryen coin. There is nothing magical about the Targ-Lannister story.

But here you seem to be contradicting yourself... You said that “M-Targ will keep this magical potency at 100%”, and if Joffrey is a descendant of Aerys II he is “M-Targ”, correct? And of course, the same should apply to Cersei, Jaime, Myrcella, and Tommen. 

Yes, they are all magically potent. But their current storyline in ASOIAF has no magic. There are no sorcerers, maegis or dragons near them. That magical side of the coin has been omitted so far. The Infiltrated Lann-Targs are just playing the Game of Thrones side of the coin: sitting Joffrey then Tommen ... picking Sansa or Margaery as Queen, fighting off usurpers, Myrcella & Dorne ... etc. No magic (at least not yet until ADOS).

The point I was getting to is that the current ASOIAF timeline is:

• The Lann-Targs = monarchy side of the Targaryen coin
• The Stark-Targs = magical side of the Targaryen coin
• Dany Targ-Targ = BOTH sides of the Targaryen coin

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I find this unlikely to be honest. I don’t think it should matter whether someone gets their “magical blood” from the male or female line of a family. But more than what I think, I again don’t recall anything in the text that supports the idea. 

I just believe there must be a science and rule in regards to blood & magic. If M-Targ and F-Targ blood are treated the same, then anyone one with a little bit of Targ blood has the same magical strength as someone with a lot. Not all characters should be created equally or the story becomes bland.

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Quote

In regards to other magic, dragon-binding blood is also an ingredient. Just like the ingredient alcohol can get people drunk ... it can also be used destroy germs, bacteria and viruses.

I’m not sure I follow... Care to elaborate?

Alcohol is an ingredient to beer, spirits, wine ... etc. It is to get people drunk.
Alcohol is also used as a disinfectant.

Dragon-binding-blood is important for dragon riding.
But it is also an ingredient for other magic ... like shadow assassins or resurrections.

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

How has she used it? 

Shadow assassins

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not sure if you mean Craster s sons are M-Targs are 100% magically potent or if you’re talking about the WWs. If the former, wouldn’t that make the WWs 100% magically potent M-Targs as well? And if you meant the latter - or both - apologies for not getting what you meant. 

The books are NOT THE SHOW. We don't know where the Others come from. And there is no Night King.
I believe the Others' intention is to raise the Craster-babies-M-Targs to adults.
The Others then kill the adult M-Targs, mind-control them, and use them to control dragons.
The Others cannot control the dragons by themselves.
They also need to place Craster's zombie sons safely on top of a dragon without the dragon burning them first. This is an impossible task, but if Craster keeps making dozens and dozens of sons, it would help.

But this is where R+L comes along.
A M-Targ mixed with Stark warging blood means REMOTE CONTROLLED DRAGONS.
Daenerys should have no problems ending the Long Night by herself with her 3 dragons. Unless the Others have a sneaky plan.

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Last place this Jon fan wants to see his bum on. But we the info we have so far I feel pretty confident he won’t sit it. 

He won't even make to King's Landing!

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think you’re making more out of “the seed is strong” than the author intended, but I could be wrong.

From my research, GRRM loves using double meaning, even triple meanings.

 

[The Map Guy]

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Remember how the KotLT is described?

“It was the little crannogman, I bet.”
“No one knew,” said Meera, “but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face.”

 

Also the KotLT has a BOOMING voice according to our shorty Meera.

[Eltharion21]

16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Remember how the KotLT is described?

“It was the little crannogman, I bet.”
“No one knew,” said Meera, “but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face.”

 

There is also description of Lyanna Stark as a centaur or half horse by some of Northern lords who knew her. 

And this quote by Jaime of jousting:

"Jousting was three-quarters horsemanship, Jaime had always believed. "

[Samsaptakas]

Sir Jaime Lannister is the most honorable man in westeros.

[Nagini's Neville]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, it isn't my greatest issue in the world or something like that. Just a part of the fandom that caused me to raise both my eyebrows once in a while.

well. yes there is a lot that causes me to raise my eyebrows tbh I guess I also really haven't come across a Sansa and Sandor shipper yet. I feel like here aren't really any shippers at all or maybe I haven't read enough yet.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I doubt that the Starks will end up supporting each other that - Bran might end up supporting everybody, of course, but Sansa and Arya and Rickon aren't exactly close nor are they likely to enjoy being around each other again.

I think there is no indication, that Arya and Sansa are not close with Rickon. IMO they all seemed to have quite normal sibling-relationships and if they were to ever meet again, they would be mainly happy to finally see each other again and still have family left. At least I dunno why it should be different. They are siblings after all. 

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But as I said, the meaning could be to lay the groundwork for Sansa's future choices and, of course,

Sure, but I think then she could think about someone else as well. It's not that the Hound is such a good basis for future choices. And Sansa starts to compare him in a subtle way to a lot of different men since AGOT. Did she have a crush on him then already? Surely not. IMO it has more to do with him specifically as a character, not necessarily in a romantic way- maybe he turns into wolf and will be her wolf for real lol

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He might also meet Sansa again eventually, but they should have gotten both over each other at that point.

Maybe. If they are both different, especially Sandor, but the qualities they liked in each other are still there- maybe not.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And I'd not agree that Sandor isn't an important character. He is an important secondary character who is introduced as a guy we should look out since the moment he arrives at Winterfell.

That's what I'm talking about. He is kinda singled out from the beginning, a character GRRM has put a lot of work into. And there is a bunch of symbolism regarding the Hound even in AGOT. But he doesn't have a very important role in the overall story at all.

Sansa would have been beaten a little bit worse by the KG, but eventually she would have learned to lie on her own, someone else could have saved her during the riot, Arya would have found her way to Bravos eventually somehow. If Sandor hadn't been in the story at all not much of the major plot would have changed- he is not really needed up until now. Since GRRM has put so much work into crafting him though, I think his role in the overall story might become important eventually.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sansa is eleven back in AGoT and only turns a year older throughout that book.

But there is really no indication at all he is attracted to her in AGOT

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There are quite a few hints as to how he desires her sexually

A lot of readers don't see it that way. And I also don't think it is that clear at all. 

There are only really those two scenes from Clash:

“You look almost a woman … face, teats, and you’re taller too, almost … ah, you’re still a stupid little bird, aren’t you?

"He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her." but then we don't know, if that's really what he wanted to do

Imo there are many more signs however, that he wants her affection and compassion. Not that this is definitely that much better. He tries to get it mostly in a very abusive way, but that he keeps on telling her all of his personal shit, is IMO a sign that he tries to recreate the moment, when she told him his brother was "no true knight". Mainly because he doesn't have anyone else, who to tell it to and Sansa isn't a threat to him and is responding the right way and if you aren't a psyopath you can't live without any positive human connection and affection all your life.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He has enough sense to not touch her while he is Joff's bodyguard and later his Kingsguard, but he still gets very close.

Well, I don't think that's it's. He also threatens to kill her doesn't he? Most of the stuff he says and does to her could get him hanged. And he knows, that she would have no one to go to confide in. He understands her situation quite well. So if he just wanted to molest her, he just would have done so, instead he tries to convince her of his world view.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

he comes to her in the night of the battle to rape her, not to save her.

Alright, I never understood why ppl claim that. He is not a pov. He never once does actually anything sexual to her. And when she thinks he wants to kiss her and makes it clear she doesn't want it, he doesn't do it. He assaults her to the point she thinks she is going to die, which is bad enough, but it's still no sexual assault. 

There is definitely "rape imagery" there. I guess, because what he does is sort of a rape- he takes something by force- but it's no literal rape.

Quote

not to save her.

We are not in the Hound's head, we don't know what he was thinking in the end, but he says this:

" “Where will you go?” “Away from here. Away from the fires. Go out the Iron Gate, I suppose. North somewhere, anywhere.” "

" “I could keep you safe,” he rasped. “They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them.” "

IMO that is more indication, that he wanted to take her with him, than we have indication, that he wanted to rape her. Didn't you translate the app as well? There it doesn't say, he wanted to rape her.

I don't think it's needed, that he wanted to rape her for what he has done to be very horrible. Sansa thought she was going to die.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In my personal opinion Littlefinger and Sandor are basically the same character - one is the muscle, the other is the brain. They both were the same idealistic child and life burned them differently (Sandor get the worst of it, of course).

LF got burned, because he got rejected in his youth? Then everyone got burned in their youth. IMO LF always had to have some sociopathic tendencies to be able to do all the shit he's done. The Hound has been terrorized and had to be afraid for his life or tortured for all of his childhood. His brother very likely killed his father and sisters and two of his wives. It's no wonder he is so messed up. That's not in the slightest comparable to LF's nice childhood with the Tullys. When you are a normal person you get over your teenage crushes.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And Sansa reminds them both of themselves as children and of what they once believed in (in Littlefinger this is even more messed due to all the Cat stuff, of course, but you get the idea).

Nah, Sansa doesn't remind LF of himself. She reminds him of Cat and also of the daughter, he could have had with her, which is a level sickness the Hound doesn't even come close to.

“Sometimes he sees Sansa and she’s the daughter he never had,” Martin says. “The daughter that he might have had with Cat…But at other times, he detaches himself from that and he’s less Petyr and more Littlefinger and she’s just another piece in the game of thrones…Yet, other times, she’s not Cat’s daughter, she’s young Cat. She’s his teenage fantasies returned again.” 

LF lies to her and manipulates her and is using her as a pawn for his own self interest. He frames her for murder, putting her at risk for her life to gain complete control over her.

While the Hound was abusive to her he tried his best to protect her from physical harm and give her tools to do so herself, he was always honest to her and did not pretend to be something he is not. (I think that is the exact reason she appreciates him, because the truth at least is useful to her even if delivered in an asshole-like way) The Hound protected her from being raped, while LF destroyed a way out for her, something she really wanted for herself, a way for her to be out of harms way only so he could bind her to him and he did not care, that she would be raped by Tyrion at such a young age for him to get her or that she might be discovered and die. While Sandor doesn't take her against her will out of KL in the end and protected her at risk to himself at times without any benefits for him at all in it.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Overall I'd say this is just the result of a bunch of young people being stuck with each for a longer period of time. Eventually some attraction and sexual desires will manifest themselves somehow. But that could just as well happened between Hot Pie and Arya if they had been the two who spent more time with each other.

I doubt it would have happened with Hot Pie. I think Gendry and Arya admire each other, because they are the most level headed/most practical of the group and the ones with helpful, but opposite skills.

Sure traumatic situations can bring you closer together- that's not necessarily always a bad thing though. In those situations the best and the worst is revealed in human beings- way to really get to know someone.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, something like a ten page Epilogue touching on what happened in the years and decades after the story isn't going to give us a proper pictures of those characters.

But it is still something we will get. GRRM has said so much. And I doubt it will be only 10 pages.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if Arya ended up in some sort of relationship she is not going to be one who is going to stuck with a person she met while she was ten years old and on the run.

She doesn't have to be stuck with him. And she met him at 10, but only spend a short time with him and then did a lot of other stuff. I personally think GRRM doesn't know, what he will do with them yet. He has said he will revisit them, but that they are still very young. IMO he will let it develop organically. And something romantic between them also doesn't mean they'll stay together forever.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But I doubt she will because relationship and marriage in this world really fuck up women - and Arya is not the kind of person who is going to allow anyone to do that to her. Not after what she went through.

Possible

[frenin]

10 minutes ago, Samsaptakas said:

Sir Jaime Lannister is the most honorable man in westeros.

That isn't unconventional, that's just false. 

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Aren't a lot theories based on assumptions? R+L=J is an assumption. And there other plenty of Youtube theorists that uses multiple assumptions to come to a conclusion. I just use them here to support the a general theme.

To be sure. And that is exactly what I said, innit. 

“And I get it, there are so many blanks in the story at this point that in order to try and figure some things out, we will invariably have to make a few assumptions.”

And then I continued by saying:

“That said, it helps when these assumptions are anchored in the text; in clues, hints, turns of phrase etc. The trouble starts (for me) when it’s the other way about. When we first make an assumption - because it fits w/ an idea we have, for instance - and then either try to pass something in the text off as a clue or hint, or worse, ignore that there aren’t any.”

And that is the issue I have w/ most of the assumptions you’re making. I’ll add that comparing the assumptions one has to make to believe R+L=J to the ones required for R+L=J&M or Bloodraven+WildlingWoman=Craster is disingenuous to say the least. The former is “anchored in the text; in clues, hints, turns of phrase etc”, while the latter just fits w/ an idea you had.

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

The other thing is that I make fresh assumptions, things people haven't heard yet. You'll probably hear 100 versions of R+L=J and most of them has Jon ending up on the Iron Throne or at least riding a dragon. These assumptions have become boring. At the same time, after hearing it 100 times, it has become the norm and the expected.

Indeed. But again, a fresh idea w/ no textual support has novelty as it’s only merit. And you’re not alone. One of the larger groups of R+L=J naysayers is comprised of readers who want to be the special snowflake who “figured it all out” where thousands of others have “failed”.

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

You are entitled to your opinions.

Ahh cheers? 

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

In the past, I have noticed some newbies here in this forum that have tried to push the R+L=J&M agenda too, but the forum just gives them silence. But those newbies are welcomed to our parade 

Again, as I have said in my previous reply, most of the readers who support this idea started popping up after the introduction of Meera Reed in the abomination, and most of it seems to have come from the fact that people think Kit Harington and Ellie Kendrick look alike. 

But sure, enjoy the parade! It will be a bunch of people chanting in unison, “I should have paid attention to the actual clues in the text!”

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I have also noticed that when people take a survey, they are asked "Who are Jon Snow's parents?" ... which is a cheap way of dodging the real question "What happened at TOJ?"

Huh? Not sure what you mean here. 

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I have done everything I can for R+L=J&M. I have given the origin story with overwhelming evidence (conventional and non-conventional).

 

Mostly wildly unconventional and unsupported by the text. Mostly “supported” by an idea you had.

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I even gave you guys a specific ending before Season 8 even came out.

I have an even bigger R+L=J&M theory (that is not Top Secret Theory) reserved for people willing to convert ... willing to come to the Dark Side!

What does s8 have to do w/ anything? You keep flip-flopping on this, sometimes using the abomination, and other times dissing it.

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

In regards to Bloodraven+WildlingWoman=Craster, I got that straight up from Top Secret Theory. I learned that Bloodraven is a villain that has a partnership with the Others.

As far as I can tell, you didn’t “learn” it, but rather you had an idea and ran w/ it, making whatever leap was required so that everything “fits”.

But if I’m wrong, show it to me. Show me how you “learned” this, give me quotes from the books - and not previous threads of yours. 

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

And from the books, Craster has a partnership with the Others too.

Does he? Are you sure? And that’s confirmed in the text? Because as far as I remember such partnership is hinted at but never confirmed. 

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I did the math and background check ... and yup ... there is a high probability that they are father and son.

I can’t say it’s impossible b/c we simply don’t have enough information to prove or disprove it. But I think it’s unlikely, but more importantly it’s not hinted at anywhere in the text. 

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

BUT they have to be the bad guys.

Why? To fit your theory? 

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Now I blend two non-mainstream theories: R+L=J&M and the bad guys Bloodraven & Craster ... and I try to develop a story and motive.

So you are doing exactly what I said is an issue for me. You come up w/ a cool, unconventional, fresh idea, and then start working on making it fit by trying to find clues for it. 

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I came to the conclusion that Bloodraven's first priority was never about Bran ... it was about Meera.

Sure. Because it fits w/ your idea.

 

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

From here, I wrote a fan fiction on how the story will naturally play out, driven by themes ... and it is AWESOME!!

As long as you’re aware that’s all it is, fan fic, an alternate story that is not Martin’s story, have at it.

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I made several changes from the original draft though. Three-Eyed Monkey accidentally help me swap swords to Longclaw for the final scene. Season 8 has helped me add bells to the final song.

Again, using the abomination when it suits you. More on this further down.

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

In the future, I also plan to tackle on A+J=J&C after discovering a massive twist that no other A+J=J&C theorists have found. 

Potentially interesting. 

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

The grandmother of Robert, Stannis and Renly is Rhaelle Targaryen. They have F-Targ blood.
In regards to why I have two example sets: The first set are pre-ASOIAF events. The second set are ASOIAF events.

Gotcha.

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Yes, this is why Daemon Blackfrye and Brynden Rivers feel entitled to the Iron Throne ... via the Blackfrye Rebellion and Dark Sister Rebellion.
In regards to Joffrey ... he is publicly known as a legitimate Baratheon F-Targ, earning Robert's throne. But in reality, he is a M-Targ Targaryen bastard.

More assumptions w/o textual support. In fact, the text points the other way.

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Yes, they are all magically potent. But their current storyline in ASOIAF has no magic. There are no sorcerers, maegis or dragons near them. That magical side of the coin has been omitted so far. The Infiltrated Lann-Targs are just playing the Game of Thrones side of the coin: sitting Joffrey then Tommen ... picking Sansa or Margaery as Queen, fighting off usurpers, Myrcella & Dorne ... etc. No magic (at least not yet until ADOS).

The point I was getting to is that the current ASOIAF timeline is:

• The Lann-Targs = monarchy side of the Targaryen coin
• The Stark-Targs = magical side of the Targaryen coin
• Dany Targ-Targ = BOTH sides of the Targaryen coin

I see. 

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I just believe there must be a science and rule in regards to blood & magic. If M-Targ and F-Targ blood are treated the same, then anyone one with a little bit of Targ blood has the same magical strength as someone with a lot. Not all characters should be created equally or the story becomes bland.

Martin has already said his magic doesn’t work like that, that he doesn’t like magic w/ rules where you have recipes for spells etc. I imagine that won’t change anything for you, but I thought I’d bring it up nonetheless. 

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Alcohol is an ingredient to beer, spirits, wine ... etc. It is to get people drunk.
Alcohol is also used as a disinfectant.

Dragon-binding-blood is important for dragon riding.
But it is also an ingredient for other magic ... like shadow assassins or resurrections.

Right. 

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Shadow assassins

The books are NOT THE SHOW. We don't know where the Others come from. And there is no Night King.

I have NO IDEA why you’re yelling that the books are not the show to me. I have always said whatever the abomination did or didn’t do has fuck all to do w/ the books. And unlike you, I'm consistent in my belief, whereas you, as I said above, use or diss the show according to what you want on any given topic.

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I believe the Others' intention is to raise the Craster-babies-M-Targs to adults.
The Others then kill the adult M-Targs, mind-control them, and use them to control dragons.
The Others cannot control the dragons by themselves.
They also need to place Craster's zombie sons safely on top of a dragon without the dragon burning them first. This is an impossible task, but if Craster keeps making dozens and dozens of sons, it would help.

But this is where R+L comes along.
A M-Targ mixed with Stark warging blood means REMOTE CONTROLLED DRAGONS.
Daenerys should have no problems ending the Long Night by herself with her 3 dragons. Unless the Others have a sneaky plan.

Honestly, none of this makes much sense to me.

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

He won't even make to King's Landing!

Fingers crossed he never goes past the Riverlands.

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

From my research, GRRM loves using double meaning, even triple meanings.

Sure. 

[Darth Sidious]

Lyanna and Mance are Jon Snow's biological parents

Egg was not a good king

Darkstar is part Targaryen

Craster is related by blood to the Starks.  

 

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

well. yes there is a lot that causes me to raise my eyebrows tbh I guess I also really haven't come across a Sansa and Sandor shipper yet. I feel like here aren't really any shippers at all or maybe I haven't read enough yet.

Oh, that was a thing that was more popular a couple of years ago. For some reason many people no longer found that thing all that intriguing. No idea if it has to do with the show.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think there is no indication, that Arya and Sansa are not close with Rickon. IMO they all seemed to have quite normal sibling-relationships and if they were to ever meet again, they would be mainly happy to finally see each other again and still have family left. At least I dunno why it should be different. They are siblings after all. 

They were not particularly close back in AGoT. And their experiences do change them - if Rickon continues on the road he was back in ACoK he'll be barely human when we see him again. Keep in mind that he has no guide to help him with the skinchanger thing. And he was angry all day even before Theon had taken Winterfell.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sure, but I think then she could think about someone else as well. It's not that the Hound is such a good basis for future choices. And Sansa starts to compare him in a subtle way to a lot of different men since AGOT. Did she have a crush on him then already? Surely not. IMO it has more to do with him specifically as a character, not necessarily in a romantic way- maybe he turns into wolf and will be her wolf for real lol

Sansa compares other men to Sandor because he fits her profile of the gallant knight more than anyone else. There is also an erotic quality to all that, but the whole thing grew out of pity into something more because he is saved her from the mob. And was the least worst of her gaoler.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Maybe. If they are both different, especially Sandor, but the qualities they liked in each other are still there- maybe not.

Sandor hopefully overcome all the shit stuff now, whereas Sansa is no complicit in the slow poisioning of her own cousin. She is no longer a little bird and even if she doesn't become a second Littlefinger we can expect her to emulate Olenna Redwyne rather than a genuine 'good person'.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That's what I'm talking about. He is kinda singled out from the beginning, a character GRRM has put a lot of work into. And there is a bunch of symbolism regarding the Hound even in AGOT. But he doesn't have a very important role in the overall story at all.

Not yet, that is. I mean, Sansa and Arya and Bran were also a huge waste of time from AGoT-ASoS. Arya started to become interesting when she went to Braavos, Bran when he met Bloodraven, and Sansa when she arrived in the Vale. Prior to that they were pawns and spectators, giving us their views on the stories and events shaped by other people.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But there is really no indication at all he is attracted to her in AGOT

One certainly can make a case that their first conversation established a first attraction - but then, the man shows his corruption and perversion when he plays as crucial a role as he did in crushing Ned and murdering his people.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

A lot of readers don't see it that way. And I also don't think it is that clear at all. 

There are only really those two scenes from Clash:

“You look almost a woman … face, teats, and you’re taller too, almost … ah, you’re still a stupid little bird, aren’t you?

"He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her." but then we don't know, if that's really what he wanted to do

Imo there are many more signs however, that he wants her affection and compassion. Not that this is definitely that much better. He tries to get it mostly in a very abusive way, but that he keeps on telling her all of his personal shit, is IMO a sign that he tries to recreate the moment, when she told him his brother was "no true knight". Mainly because he doesn't have anyone else, who to tell it to and Sansa isn't a threat to him and is responding the right way and if you aren't a psyopath you can't live without any positive human connection and affection all your life.

Sandor lies in Sansa bed when she finds him. And he later admits to Arya he wanted to rape/fuck her. Offering to take Sansa with him is his reaction after she sang him his song, wasn't it?

Sandor is usually also drunk when talks to Sansa, pushing her boundaries. He is basically a harasser. I consider it as part of the 'weirdness' in this Sansa-Sandor thing to ignore the sexual nature of his obsession. Of course it is not only sexual and there are other reasons besides Sansa's beauty that draw him to her, but the sexual thing certainly plays a strong role.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Well, I don't that's think it's. He also threatens to kill her doesn't he? Most of the stuff he says and does to her could get him hanged. And he knows, that she would have no one to go to confide in. He understands her situation quite well. So if he just wanted to molest her, he just would have done so, instead he tries to convince her of his world view.

We are not in his head, but I'd assume he had enough sense that raping the daughter of the Hand/betrothed of the prince/king would be something he could not get away with.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

LF got burned, because he got rejected in his youth? Then everyone got burned in their youth. IMO LF always had to have some sociopathic tendencies to be able to do all the shit he's done. The Hound has been terrorized and had to be afraid for his life or tortured for all of his childhood. His brother very likely killed his father and sisters and two of his wives. It's no wonder he is so messed up. That's not in the slightest comparable to LF's nice childhood with the Tullys. When you are a normal person you get over your teenage crushes.

Trauma doesn't affect anyone in the same. Littlefinger certainly would have likely gotten quite a few points on the psychopathy checklist before his fallout with the Tullys, but there is no indication he was even remotely the kind of man he grew into back in Riverrung - or that he would turn his unique gifts into a force of destruction rather than using them to profit the Tullys.

Sandor and Littlefinger both believed in goodness and justice and that idealism leads to rewards ... and life and their (foster) family fucked them. Sandor's issues are not only with being burned, it is how people and the world reacted to it - doing nothing and hushing everything up. With Littlefinger it is not just that Brandon defeated him - but that the Tullys abandoned him and sided with Brandon and even denied their own desires in favor of political nonsense. Keep in mind the man actually thinks Cat loved him and was forced into the Stark marriage because her father commanded it.

The words of the Tullys are 'Family, Duty, Honor' - but Hoster trampled family for honor, didn't he? One of the greatest little things in FaB is when Edmyn Tully decides to resign as Hand after his wife dies because he wants to be with his family. That's how the Tullys should be, how they pretend to be. And Hoster spat on all of that - not just with Lysa and Littlefinger and Cat, but also back when he tried to force Brynden into a marriage he didn't want.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Nah, Sansa doesn't remind LF of himself. She reminds him of Cat and also of the daughter, he could have had with her, which is a level sickness the Hound doesn't even come close to.

“Sometimes he sees Sansa and she’s the daughter he never had,” Martin says. “The daughter that he might have had with Cat…But at other times, he detaches himself from that and he’s less Petyr and more Littlefinger and she’s just another piece in the game of thrones…Yet, other times, she’s not Cat’s daughter, she’s young Cat. She’s his teenage fantasies returned again.” 

LF lies to her and manipulates her and is using her as a pawn for his own self interest. He frames her for murder, putting her at risk for her life to gain complete control over her.

That certainly is what he does when he has her in his power in the Vale. The parallel I meant there is him telling her that life isn't a song and she will have to learn that one day, to her sorrow. This is Littlefinger talking about himself as much as Sansa. And Sandor Clegane learned the same lesson.

In essence, Sandor and Littlefinger also have the same world view - Littlefinger just is smarter and less obviously a nihilist who doesn't care about people.

And of course I'd not fault Littlefinger for seeing Cat in Sansa - she resembles her and he was truly in love with her and thinks she was his once. This shaped his character to no small degree. How wrong Littlefinger is in trying to make Sansa whatever the hell he wants to make her in comparison to Drogo or any other Westerosi with a child bride I really don't know. Would you say Littlefinger is better or worse than, say, Margaery who would have slept in the same bed as Tommen if Olenna had gotten her way?

And to be sure - my ideal view of emancipation for Sansa would be if she ended up seducing Littlefinger himself. His crucial weakness is that he wants to believe the lie that Sansa loves him - if Sansa could convince him this was actually the truth by seducing him he would likely belong to her in a manner he would not even realize himself. He would stop viewing her as a pawn and end up doing things that profit her, in the end, not him.

The way to make this work would need her to walk the fine line between becoming too much like Littlefinger and remaining a political savvy person who isn't also a murderer and evil plotter.

Sansa running away from him or messing with his plans could, in the end, only result in crippling her own fledging power because she is still a girl and can never expect to rule in her own right even if she became the Lady of Winterfell or the Dowager Lady of the Vale. Due to her age she could not rule the Vale as regent for Lord Robert or an infant son she might get from Harry.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

While the Hound was abusive to her he tried his best to protect her from physical harm and give her tools to do so herself, he was always honest to her and did not pretend to be something he is not. (I think that is the exact reason she appreciates him, because the truth at least is useful to her even if delivered in an asshole-like way) The Hound protected her from being raped, while LF destroyed a way out for her, something she really wanted for herself, a way for her to be out of harms way only so he could bind her to him and he did not care, that she would be raped by Tyrion at such a young age for him to get her or that she might be discovered and die. While Sandor doesn't take her against her will out of KL in the end.

In defense of Littlefinger one has to say that he wanted to take Sansa out of KL as early as ACoK when he wrote the message (and that was after he had gotten Tyrion's fake offer but before he had learned that the dwarf had fooled him). Later on he definitely messed with Sansa by arranging the Tyrion marriage, but we cannot really say whether Sansa would be better off at Highgarden than at the Vale. I'd say the lessons Littlefinger teaches her will prove invaluable. If I had to make a list where I think Sansa would have been best off after Ned's death I'd say the Vale is the best setting. Being on the run or as trophy wife of the heir of Highgarden would have pretty much ended a plot where she could come into her own.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I doubt it would have happened with Hot Pie. I think Gendry and Arya admire each other, because they are the most level headed/most practical of the group and the ones with helpful, but opposite skills.

Oh, my point was just that Hot Pie and Arya could have if they had had a different start. The Gendry connection seems to start with Arya realizing that he is 'special', too.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But it is still something we will get. GRRM has said so much. And I doubt it will be only 10 pages.

Well, how long are most chapters in ASoIaF? And it should not only cover Arya but all the characters who survive the grand finale.

[Aemon Darkbrother]

On 4/22/2020 at 8:22 PM, The Map Guy said:

The male Targaryen lineage runs like this for Gilly's baby:

• AEGon the Unworthy
• Bloodraven
• Craster
• Monster

Spot on, until this. 

Aemon steelsong and baby monster are the legacy of Maester Aemon . 

Craster is not Bloodravens child. Craster's AEMONS child. One of Aemons three tests was to abandon Crasters mother in Whitetree.

Kings blood= Blood of the dragon

COTF= Blood of the dragon

Others= Blood of the Dragon

House Stark= Blood of the dragon

Blood of the dragon= Blood of the great empire of the Dawn

Blood of the great empire of the Dawn = Blood of Valayria 

Blood of Valayria= Blood of house Targaryan

Jon's baby swap was futile from the start. He swapped one Targ for another. Baby Sam will be saved at the last minute however and sadly Shereen (Aegon the 5th's Great Great Granddaughter) will be sacrificed in his place.

Dala (granddaughter of Aemon) ran away from home to save the life of her child just as Gilly did, only her child was born a girl aka Val.

Also, Mance is Rhaegar. Jon is going to kill Mance in parallel to Lord Brandon and Bael the bard.

 

There's an interesting pattern established in the Targaryan Dynasty:

Aemon One Eye (Younger brother of King Aegon 2nd)

Aemon Dragonknight (Younger brother of King Aegon 4th)

Aemon Blackfyre (Younger brother to Aegon Blackfyre Heir to Daemon)

Aemon Maester (Brother to King Aegon 5th)

Imo, Aemon Steelsong = Brother to King Aegon 7th (Jon)

Aemon steelsong is Craster's grandson and Jon's younger brother. 

Gilly thought about that. "Dalla brought him forth during battle, as the swords sang all around her. That should be his name. Aemon Battleborn. Aemon Steelsong."

A name even my lord father might like. A warrior's name. The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's grandson, after all. He had none of Sam's craven blood. "Yes. Call him that."

[Vaith]

I dislike this "everything is going to happen because of some bloodline that goes back 10,000 years that some people may have."

Craster being a Targaryen scion doesn't seem especially necessary and him being Some Guy who has some weird relationship with the others is good enough for me.

My personal story taste is one where one becomes, not is born special, and does not need some 10,000 year old bloodline to be important.