Unconventional opinions dumpsterfire of a thread

[BalerionTheCat]

26 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

Mirri Maz Duur did nothing wrong. A Khal and his khalasar destroyed her village & raped her. It was right of her to kill Drogo.

And to kill the "Stallion Who Mounts the World" before it started. Saving uncounted millions of lives.

[Lord Varys]

34 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

She's already almost 14. You say she is not going to age in the last two books? Oh, no hopefully she won't develop a leeches habit as well-then we know what's up 

She isn't. Sansa was eleven in AGoT, and at this point in the story not even two full years have passed. Else Tommen would already be nine years old and not still eight.

Alayne claims she is fourteen, but Sansa Stark is still barely thirteen.

34 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think all the Stark/Snow kids will properly 21st century style- grow up and maybe even old and die at the latest in the epilogue.

That might be, but hopefully Sandor Clegane is already dead by then. If he and Sansa ended up having a thing it would happen before his death, not thereafter.

[Nagini's Neville]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She isn't. Sansa was eleven in AGoT, and at this point in the story not even two full years have passed. Else Tommen would already be nine years old and not still eight.

Alayne claims she is fourteen, but Sansa Stark is still barely thirteen.

That might be, but hopefully Sandor Clegane is already dead by then. If he and Sansa ended up having a thing it would happen before his death, not thereafter.

Yes, I know she is pretending to be a year older, but I thought three years have passed already. Isn't Arya 12 already and Jon 17 in Dance?

Also I always thought Arya was 9 in AGOT, but she remembers being 8 when she killed the stable boy.

"I killed a boy when I was eight, Arya almost said, but she thought she’d better not."

A Storm of Swords 

That being said I still don't think, that's a certain indication, that time won't move a bit quicker in the last two books, since they are supposed to be pretty big and so much still has to happen. It would at least take two years to wrap up the story realistically.

But yes, I definitely understand your misgivings and I don't know, if I'd like it, if GRRM decides to go in that direction. I however don't think you have to dig at all to find those clues, especially, if you tend to reread Sansa's chapters a couple of times. 

IMO GRRM almost overdid it a bit with the symbolism for the Hound being such a minor character. It kinda sticks out. Question is however what he intends with that.

But it's not only the symbolism, also the constant classic romantic tropes he uses in their interactions, it's even pretty cliché- it's just that the players don't fit. And that makes it feel so weird and uncomfortable.

It's almost a bit like queerbaiting (only in it's effects of course, there is of course nothing wrong with lgbtq+ relationships)

But that's why I don't fault readers for having those associations, because I think GRRM caused them intentionally (remains to be seen why), doesn't mean you can't be still critical about it.

He actually does a similar thing with Gendry and Arya (even though more subtly and not as frequently) and Jaime and Brienne. He uses those quite cliche romantically coded tropes and symbolism and inserts them in interaction between two characters, that don't belong in a romance together. Arya is just 10 and Jaime and Brienne also look like an unlikely, impossible couple at first glance.

 

[Elegant Woes]

@Nagini's Neville I am curious what you mean with the romantic symbolism when it comes to Sansa and Sandor. Can you share a thread where this is discussed in-depth?

[Dot Com]

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But Tyrion and Sansa isn't? 

Tyrion and Sansa just seems like something GRRM would do. Especially considering Tyrion is an inveterate schemer and Sansa is learning how to become one. 

[Elegant Woes]

5 minutes ago, Dot Com said:

Tyrion and Sansa just seems like something GRRM would do. Especially considering Tyrion is an inveterate schemer and Sansa is learning how to become one. 

The chances of Tyrion and Sansa ending up together is slim to none. Tyrion is on a path of villainy whereas Sansa has explicitly been referred to as a hero. There's nothing compatible with these two.  

[Dot Com]

15 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

The chances of Tyrion and Sansa ending up together is slim to none. Tyrion is on a path of villainy whereas Sansa has explicitly been referred to as a hero. There's nothing compatible with these two.  

I don't know that GRRM sees Tyrion as an irredeemable villain. He referred to him as a villain in the context of ACOK, when he was the Hand for Joffrey's illegitimate regime, but that doesn't mean he's a villain in general. Tyrion is his favourite character, after all. 

[Elegant Woes]

@Dot Com Except GRRM never said that he was a villain in the context of him being the acting Hand for Joffrey. 

Quote

Interviewer: Do you have a favorite character?

GRRM: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

Not only is there no talk of ACOK GRRM flat calls him the villain. It's fair to assume he's talking in the general sense. I don't see Tyrion having a good ending. Not only with the horrendous acts he committed but also the fact he's a kin slayer. In the world of ASOIAF kin slayers are accursed in the eyes of the gods and men. He has yet to be punished for this and something tells me that this punishment will happen by the end of the last book. 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yes, I know she is pretending to be a year older, but I thought three years have passed already. Isn't Arya 12 already and Jon 17 in Dance?

Also I always thought Arya was 9 in AGOT, but she remembers being 8 when she killed the stable boy.

"I killed a boy when I was eight, Arya almost said, but she thought she’d better not."

A Storm of Swords 

That being said I still don't think, that's a certain indication, that time won't move a bit quicker in the last two books, since they are supposed to be pretty big and so much still has to happen. It would at least take two years to wrap up the story realistically.

But yes, I definitely understand your misgivings and I don't know, if I'd like it, if GRRM decides to go in that direction. I however don't think you have to dig at all to find those clues, especially, if you tend to reread Sansa's chapters a couple of times. 

IMO GRRM almost overdid it a bit with the symbolism for the Hound being such a minor character. It kinda sticks out. Question is however what he intends with that.

But it's not only the symbolism, also the constant classic romantic tropes he uses in their interactions, it's even pretty cliché- it's just that the players don't fit. And that makes it feel so weird and uncomfortable.

It's almost a bit like queerbaiting (only in it's effects of course, there is of course nothing wrong with lgbtq+ relationships)

But that's why I don't fault readers for having those associations, because I think GRRM caused them intentionally (remains to be seen why), doesn't mean you can't be still critical about it.

He actually does a similar thing with Gendry and Arya (even though more subtly and not as frequently) and Jaime and Brienne. He uses those quite cliche romantically coded tropes and symbolism and inserts them in interaction between two characters, that don't belong in a romance together. Arya is just 10 and Jaime and Brienne also look like an unlikely, impossible couple at first glance.

The series starts with Tommen/Bran being seven, Arya being nine, Sansa being eleven, Jon and Robb being fourteen. Joff is twelve, and Myrcella eight, I think. The fact that Tommen is still not nine is confirmation that not two full years passed since AGoT. And that also entails that Sansa cannot be fourteen - which she isn't. It depends when she turned eleven and then twelve when she can turn thirteen, but she cannot be much older than barely thirteen at this point. As far I recall her nameday doesn't happen while she is still at Winterfell or while they are on their way to KL. It might only happen in ACoK, I don't recall it right now.

The thing about Arya being eight when she killed the stableboy must be a mistake ... the mistake is in the appendix of AGoT where Arya is introduced as being nine when the series starts. She could very well already be ten when she kills the boy.

But to try to be clear yet again - I've no issues with George giving characters strange and weird and freak romances. I merely expressed my dislike for people shipping such romances when they did not take place yet. I'm not much into shipping business myself, but I find it very strange behavior to ship fictitional characters who should not be together if the world were just.

That said - I certainly see the clues that are there, but I prefer that to read this as the awakening of Sansa's sexuality and the development of the kind of man she might prefer when she makes a choice in the future. Not as the groundwork or foundation for some kind of relationship. Not every person you may have the hots for is going to fuck you.

And Sansa aside - whose feelings are essentially as understandable as Dany's 'love' for Drogo - the real issue here is Sandor Clegane. The guy is just brutal murderer whose very own obsession with this 'singing bird' is by no means clear ... there is a tenderness there, but also a clear sexual obsession, something that's very wrong for a man his age. Even if one gives the pedo sex obsession a pass, it is completely unhealthy to have a sexual or romantic relationship you bonded with while threatening her with death and while you were one of her gaolers. This would even be wrong if Sansa was sixteen or even twenty.

I prefer Sansa to have story of emancipation - which also includes to overcome all the nonsense she had to go through at KL - which means that she would take sufficient pages out Littlefinger's book to take control of her own life and the people around her without becoming a psychopath herself.

And it is clearly a similar thing with Gendry-Arya - they are young and stuck together and so things start to develop there. But this is not a kind of attraction that would play out if they were meeting/interacting under different circumstances.

In Arya's case a proper sexual relationship during the books is out of the question - she might continue to use sex as means to murder people, one imagines, but I don't ever see her having any sort of healthy romantic or sexual relationship. She is barely eleven, after all. And even if she were older - her entire character is set on defying female stereotypes. Which in my opinion should include both romance and marriage.

[Dot Com]

That interview came out in 1999, right after ACOK was released, which is why I say he was calling him a villain in the context of that book. 

5 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

In the world of ASOIAF kin slayers are accursed in the eyes of the gods and men. He has yet to be punished for this and something tells me that this punishment will happen by the end of the last book. 

I don't know why Westerosi superstitions would inform the overall message of the story. Regardless of the kinslaying taboo he was absolutely right to kill Tywin.

Also, by this logic wouldn't Jon be punished in the last book (assuming ... you know ... happens)?  

[Lollygag]

From the perspective of the characters, Tyrion the demon monkey, kinslayer, kingslayer, attempted murder of Bran, etc is indeed a villain. For the reader, he's definitely taken that turn in ADWD, but that may change. He's switched characters from good to bad, bad to good a number of times before.

I'm deeply skeptical of any statement from GRRM which sounds like A MASSIVE ENDGAME SPOILER. That's not how he rolls and he's keeping the future of the books pretty tight to his chest. So, even if it comes out sounding like an endgame spoiler, it's probably not.

Jon's the hero, Tyrion's the villain. Really think we're getting it that easy with a number of books left?

[Elegant Woes]

@Dot Com Let's just assume he was talking about Tyrion in the context of ACOK. If GRRM can say that about Tyrion where he is relatively mild in terms of villainy what makes you think the title "villain" doesn't apply to him in ASOS & ADWD were he gets significantly darker? Don't get me wrong I get why Tyrion did it. He had a psychological break down because of Tywin and killed him in the process. In my opinion, Tywin absolutely deserved that. However, if even the son of the nameless Stark daughter and Bael the Bard gets punished for unknowingly killing his father I don't see how Tyrion can be exempt from being punished. 

Jon also needs to be punished if he does that in A dream of Spring. And it's because of that I am desperately hoping that it's Arya who does the deed and Jon takes the blame for it because I really really don't want Jon to be punished for it. Unfortunately, despite my desperate and perhaps tinfoil-y wish, there's quite some foreshadowing to Jon doing the deed. Kin slaying is brought up far too much in his chapters to be a coincidence. 

[Dot Com]

8 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Dot Com Let's just assume he was talking about Tyrion in the context of ACOK. If GRRM can say that about Tyrion where he is relatively mild in terms of villainy what makes you think the title "villain" doesn't apply to him in ASOS & ADWD were he gets significantly darker? 

In ACOK he actively opposed the Starks and Stannis, whose causes were objectively more just than the Lannisters'. His personal conduct takes a turn for the worse in ADWD, yes, but he's no longer a direct impediment for the protagonists. 

15 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Jon's the hero, Tyrion's the villain. Really think we're getting it that easy with a number of books left?

Exactly. There's no guarantee that even the Stark kids will remain morally above reproach. Arya's arc in particular looks like it's going to a dark place.

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I prefer Sansa to have story of emancipation - which also includes to overcome all the nonsense she had to go through at KL - which means that she would take sufficient pages out Littlefinger's book to take control of her own life and the people around her without becoming a psychopath herself.

I always imagined that if they (Sandor & Sansa) met again, the power dynamic between them would be flipped. Becoming her "dog" seems like a natural end point to his story, and Sansa ends up effectively in control of one of her former tormentors. 

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

... but I don't ever see her having any sort of healthy romantic or sexual relationship. She is barely eleven, after all. And even if she were older - her entire character is set on defying female stereotypes. Which in my opinion should include both romance and marriage.

IIRC there was a quote from GRRM that Arya would "flower" in the coming books, which suggests something might happen on this front ... creepy as it would be. Also I thought she was 12 as of the Mercy chapter?

[Dreadscythe95]

On 4/15/2020 at 3:35 AM, Peach King said:

-I don't really get why people romanticize Melisandre and Stannis. She says herself that he would never love her, only make use of her, he threatens her with death several times, and is mostly only with her because she's feeding his ego by telling him he's Azor Ahai. Much romance, such feminism, wow. 

-Rhaenyra was not that bad a person. She only executed traitors who committed treason as far as I know, and she never harmed Alicent and Halaena when they were fully in her power (I'm disregarding the rumours about what she had done to them since Fire and Blood says they were far-fetched), and she only ordered Addam and Nettles killed when she was deeply paranoid and had lost almost everyone close to her. 

-The Faith of the Seven should be represented better. And I don't just mean that the religion should be more developed. Since Westeros is an absolute monarchy, the only voice the smallfolk have is really exercised through the orders of the Faith and the High Septon. So to see all the High Septons either being "lickspittles", fat, corrupt men (and seriously why is fat almost synonymous with greedy and corrupt in ASOIAF?) or fanatics is uh....not great. The only Faith of the Seven practitioners who stand in opposition to the nobles are characterized as delusional fanatics or in a negative light (The Sword and Stars, Septon Moon, Septon Mattheus, The Sheperd, the High Sparrow). Theres a line in Fire and Blood about how the Poor Fellows protected the smallfolk from vagabonds, but is immediately undercut by the next line being "when they weren't stealing from them themselves". So yeah, I think all this could be represented better.

In that time and age there were not many fat people. For someone to be fat he had to have a LOT of wealth that others didn't have and if you are a man of the fiath  adn you are fat it's quite obvious how you became fat. There is a reason that back then the perfect wife was not a model of today's stadarts but a chubby, healthy like woman. A woman that had extra weight back then was a woman that was wealthy.

[Elegant Woes]

12 minutes ago, Dot Com said:

In ACOK he actively opposed the Starks and Stannis, whose causes were objectively more just than the Lannisters'. His personal conduct takes a turn for the worse in ADWD, yes, but he's no longer a direct impediment for the protagonists. 

I don't know what you are talking but Tyrion actively opposes the Starks well into ASOS. By forcibly marrying Sansa he became an enemy of the Starks and unless he annuls that marriage will continue to hold that status. 

[Lollygag]

2 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I don't know what you are talking but Tyrion actively opposes the Starks well into ASOS. By forcibly marrying Sansa he became an enemy of the Starks and unless he annuls that marriage will continue to hold that status. 

The Starks are smart enough to know that Tywin was calling the shots especially where marriage was concerned and {cue Rains of Castamere} all of Westeros knows what it means to defy Tywin.

In ADWD, Jon still likes Tyrion. in AFFC, Sansa thinks kindly of Tyrion. Tyrion gave Bran the saddle design and taught him that while his life would be different, it wasn't over. Catelyn/Stoneheart realized that she was wrong about Tyrion before she died. That's all of the Starks except Arya who are on the plus side with Tyrion and I expect that's coming soon.

And Tyrion killed Tywin (Red Wedding) and is widely believed to have killed Joff who ordered Ned's death. Cersei has it out all over Westeros that she wants him dead. Enemy of my enemy...

[Elegant Woes]

@Lollygag I don't get why you are bringing up what the Starks think of Tyrion. It's completely irrelevant to the discussion I had with Dot Com. We were talking about Tyrion's status as a villain in context to his marriage with Sansa. For that farce of a marriage to go on Tyrion will not only be a villain but also what good opinion the Starks have of him will go away. 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Nagini's Neville I am curious what you mean with the romantic symbolism when it comes to Sansa and Sandor. Can you share a thread where this is discussed in-depth?

Yeah, maybe I do some day. I'm just a bit to lazy rn. Sorry.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Dot Com said:

That interview came out in 1999, right after ACOK was released, which is why I say he was calling him a villain in the context of that book. 

I don't know why Westerosi superstitions would inform the overall message of the story. Regardless of the kinslaying taboo he was absolutely right to kill Tywin.

Also, by this logic wouldn't Jon be punished in the last book (assuming ... you know ... happens)?  

I agree w/ the bold, wholeheartedly. Someone had to kill that nasty PoS, and all I can say is “good riddance”. 

But I also agree w/ what @Elegant Woes said about Tyrion - minus the kinslaying which, at this point, I consider his one redeeming quality. But I find Tyrion’s  relationships w/ women in general and prostitutes in particular particularly troubling. There’s also the way he likes to play the victim, his buying into his own bs, and much more. Ultimately I do think he is overall a villain; he’s not an irredeemable monster like Ramsay or Gregor Clegane, sure, but a very dark grey villain. IMO.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As far I recall her nameday doesn't happen while she is still at Winterfell or while they are on their way to KL. It might only happen in ACoK, I don't recall it right now.

Sansa tells Tyrion on their wedding night she will be 13 in the next month. So yeah, she is just a little over 13.