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Unconventional opinions dumpsterfire of a thread


Alyn Oakenfist

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1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

Not evil imo but not a saint either. He didn't rape or abuse her but it doesn't change the fact that he accepted his father's offer to marry a child hostage in an act of war against her family.

Did someone say he was a saint?
Thats not a dig at you. Just pointing out that standing against a certain position is not the same as taking up the extreme opposite of that position.  
 

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

But unlike height and strength he thought he could've had Sansa and Winterfell and that's why he agreed to that sham of a marriage in the first place.

He thought he might be able to win her heart by being kind and good to her, as he always had, despite the difficult situation that he couldn't change. As she acknowledged, both in her own head and to his face. Whats evil about that?

He had no power to stop her being married off to someone. Better it be someone kind to her, like him, than someone who didn't care for her at all.

That there is potential benefit in it to him is not the be all and end all of of analysing and discussing it. Thats part of it, but you have to look at all the other parts too, in order to treat it fairly.

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

Accepting the marriage offer is also one of his actual actions but from what I've seen you try to downplay it.

I try to analyse it, assess it fairly. Understand the full context,not a distorted half-context version.

My point was, here was this quote being used to point to his appalling treatment of Sansa, yet what it actually says is that he wants good things for her and that his actions (not touching her despite his desire, making them both sleep clothed to make it easier for both) were extremely respectful to her. Thats what the quote says. But the quote was used to show him as a disgusting evil monster.

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

Tbh I was hesitant to reply to you since this topic has already been beaten to death in another thread and also too much sarcasm is usually a turn-off for me

Sorry about that. Some things are so extreme that there doesn't seem to be any place to go. I've stayed quiet through a lot on this thread, including have my position on another subject grossly misrepresented, because its not really topical. And I carefully kept my reply to a minimum. focusing on the text. Its not my fault that the way the text was quoted was so opposite to the actual body of it that just pointing out what it says looks like sarcasm (and yes, I added real sarcasm myself in the 'so evil' part).

You might notice that this thread was already being derailed, before I posted.
Why is that?

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

but I thought I should give my opinion about this since I was one of the posters that provided the quote.

Thats up to you. Yours wasn't as egregious as the other, but I was careful to get the full quote myself and not pull anyone else in by quoting them directly.

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  1. Dragons do plant trees.  They build kingdoms, cities, roads, and septs.  The Dany haters among the fans make too much out of the throw away line "dragons plant no trees."  The statement is not accurate.  The dragons have constructed more than any other family in Westeros.  They have accomplished more than any other family in Westeros.  Daenerys herself has accomplished more than any other character of the same age.  They also built Dragonstone and the Red Keep.  
  2. The three lies that must be slain are all about Azor Ahai.  Stannis, YG, and Jon will all be falsely put forth as Azor Ahai.  
  3. The Five Forts will be garrisoned again.
  4. The Valyrians were practicing Eugenics.
  5. Syrio Forel can see through the FM disguise.  
  6. Shireen will infect the men of the watch and the wildlings with greyscale.  
  7. Arya murdered an innocent insurance underwriter.  
  8. Jon's wildlings killed Little Walder to increase the tension inside the castle.
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The most egregious example of a child bride that I can think of is Aemma Arryn, who was married off to Viserys I at age eleven, despite both his father and grandfather still being alive and healthy, and the realm being at peace. My only explanation is probably that George just got the dates messed up between writing TPatQ and Fire and Blood, and so he just went with it rather than going back and restructuring the story more than he already had.

While we're talking about historical figures, here are two more opinions, one of which might be unconventional, and the second of which definitely is:

1. Alysanne mistreated Viserra, who did nothing wrong besides be pretty and have some of the same ambitions that Alysanne herself had at her age (which Viserra ended up abandoning pretty quickly). Alyssa and Daella both had a say in who they married, and Saera spent her teenage years running wild, yet Viserra was supposed to be married off to an old man who outlived four wives and be happy about it.

2. Alyn Velaryon was kind of a f*ckboy. 

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@corbon

I never said he was evil but I do think it was selfish and wrong to marry her. The whole purpose of the forced marriage was to use her against her family and usurp her legacy and imo just because he couldn't stop her marriage to a Lannister doesn't make his decision to do it himself any less selfish and wrong. Now I do give him some credit for not forcing himself on her and his decency after the rejection but it doesn't affect my opinion about his decision to marry her or his intention to consummate the marriage in the first place.

My opinion is as firm as yours on this matter so let's agree to disagree.

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7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:
7 hours ago, winter daughter said:

he just did not expect his very timid and dutiful child bride to reject him the way she did so he kept it in his pants because after all he was not a rapist.

 You give him too much credit here lol

When exactly is Tyrion a rapist?

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

My opinion is as firm as yours on this matter so let's agree to disagree.

Well how firm you opinion is don't mean that much. Let's talk facts here.

- First off, Sansa was getting married to a Lannister no matter what. So saying that Tyrion was causing any pain on her is a bit of a stretch, he actually sparred her a lot of pain, imagine Lancel in the same position. I bet he would have had a lot of pity, and would not full blown rape Sansa.

- Second off one of Tyrion's core desires is to be loved by someone. So of course he wanted it in the vain hope (another of Tyrion's faults is not realizing when someone obviously doesn't love him, like with Shae) that maybe Sansa will love him.

So he took the marriage both in order to spare Sansa of more pain, and in the hopes that she might love him due to his innate kindness, and when that is proven to be false he stops and lets her be. So what was so wrong about that? His only fault was not reading the bloody clues early, and stopping a bit late.

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24 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

When exactly is Tyrion a rapist?

I meant he literately doesn't keep it in his pants with Sansa, does he? Just a joke

And he raped the sunset girl twice.

Quote

So he took the marriage both in order to spare Sansa of more pain, and in the hopes that she might love him due to his innate kindness, and when that is proven to be false he stops and lets her be. So what was so wrong about that? His only fault was not reading the bloody clues early, and stopping a bit late.

So that she was an abused child hostage and forced into the marriage, therefore unable to consent was not bloody clue enough? 

Also it's definitely not only pure love, that Tyrion wants from Sansa. 

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1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I meant he literately doesn't keep it in his pants with Sansa, does he? Just a joke

And he raped the sunset girl twice.

She was a bed warmed as far as I can recall. So we can get into a nice little can of worms on the morality of that. Let's just agree that morally it wasn't ok at all but it wasn't quite rape either. Also it is still unclear if she was a slave or paid prostitute, so let's call it unclear consent.

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17 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

She was a bed warmed as far as I can recall. So we can get into a nice little can of worms on the morality of that. Let's just agree that morally it wasn't ok at all but it wasn't quite rape either. Also it is still unclear if she was a slave or paid prostitute, so let's call it unclear consent.

how nice lol

I think you are confusing, who I'm talking about. Not the girl of Illyrio, even though he was pretty cruel to her as well, threatening to strangle her just so he would see fear on her face. This is the scene I'm talking about:

"Though she did look Westerosi, the girl spoke not a word of the Common Tongue. Perhaps she was captured by some slaver as a child. Her bedchamber was small, but there was a Myrish carpet on the floor and a mattress stuffed with feathers in place of straw. I have seen worse. “Will you give me your name?” he asked, as he took a cup of wine from her. “No?” The wine was strong and sour and required no translation. “I suppose I shall settle for your cunt.” He wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. “Have you ever bedded a monster before? Now’s as good a time as any. Out of your clothes and onto your back, if it please you. Or not.” She looked at him uncomprehending, until he took the flagon from her hands and lifted her skirts up over her head. After that she understood what was required of her, though she did not prove the liveliest of partners. Tyrion had been so long without a woman that he spent himself inside her on the third thrust. He rolled off feeling more ashamed than sated. This was a mistake. What a wretched creature I’ve become. “Do you know a woman by the name of Tysha?” he asked, as he watched his seed dribble out of her onto the bed. The whore did not respond. “Do you know where whores go?” She did not answer that one either. Her back was crisscrossed by ridges of scar tissue. This girl is as good as dead. I have just fucked a corpse. Even her eyes looked dead. She does not even have the strength to loathe me. (...) His stomach heaved, and he found himself on his knees, retching on the carpet, that wonderful thick Myrish carpet, as comforting as lies. The whore cried out in distress. They will blame her for this, he realized, ashamed. “Cut off my head and take it to King’s Landing,” Tyrion urged her. “My sister will make a lady of you, and no one will ever whip you again.” She did not understand that either, so he shoved her legs apart, crawled between them, and took her once more. That much she could comprehend, at least. Afterward the wine was done and so was he, so he wadded up the girl’s clothing and tossed it at the door. She took the hint and fled,"

 

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3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- First off, Sansa was getting married to a Lannister no matter what. So saying that Tyrion was causing any pain on her is a bit of a stretch, he actually sparred her a lot of pain, imagine Lancel in the same position. I bet he would have had a lot of pity, and would not full blown rape Sansa.

Lancel? after the Battle of the Blackwater? Hardly. Have you forgotten what he is like, when Jaime meets him in Feast? He is a changed man. He hasn't even touched his own wife then. He also probably would have been very thankful to Sansa for saving his life. And he also was too injured to consummate anyway. So might have been better for Sansa. There is also nothing in the text, that suggests Tyrion marries Sansa to protect her from other worse Lannisters.

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Did Tyrion even have the authority to change the bridegroom? I mean they were minutes away from marrying and he already promised Tywin he would marry Sansa. I don't think he could get away with it. So his offer to Sansa about Lancel was nothing but an empty promise. 

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2 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Did Tyrion even have the authority to change the bridegroom? I mean they were minutes away from marrying and he already promised Tywin he would marry Sansa. I don't think he could get away with it. So his offer to Sansa about Lancel was nothing but an empty promise. 

That was what NLG suggested in the last thread and seems like a valid argument. IMO we don't have enough information to know for sure. But IMO that Tyrion agreed to marrying Sansa in the first place to protect her from another worse bridegroom lannister isn't supported by the text.

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42 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Did Tyrion even have the authority to change the bridegroom? I mean they were minutes away from marrying and he already promised Tywin he would marry Sansa. I don't think he could get away with it. So his offer to Sansa about Lancel was nothing but an empty promise. 

He didn't have authority to say who she would be married to in his stead but he certainly could have refused to marry her at all. To suggest otherwise seems to undermine your stance IMO. If he truly could not refuse the marriage & thus had no choice in the matter he can hardly be blamed for marrying her right? 

29 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That was what NLG suggested in the last thread and seems like a valid argument. IMO we don't have enough information not know for sure. But IMO that Tyrion agreed to marrying Sansa in the first place to protect her from another worse bridegroom lannister isn't supported by the text.

Well that isn't why he married her. There were several reasons but the one I think you are referring to here is that he believed himself to be the best option for her. That is evidenced by the fact that he knows he isn't going to mistreat or abuse her & that he will treat her kindly. Something he cannot know about anyone but himself. He may suspect, in Lancel's current condition, he would be incapable of much harm to her but that wouldn't last indefinitely. Even knowing he would be good to her he still gives her the choice. 

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17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That is evidenced by the fact that he knows he isn't going to mistreat or abuse her & that he will treat her kindly.

That doesn't equal him thinking he would be the best choice for her. He never compares himself to other Lannisters in that regard, except for maybe Joffrey, but he is obviously not a choice anyway. The only thing he actually reflects on is, that she wouldn't be attracted to him, but rather to someone tall and conventionally good-looking. 

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1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That doesn't equal him thinking he would be the best choice for her. He never compares himself to other Lannisters in that regard, except for maybe Joffrey, but he is obviously not a choice anyway. The only thing he actually reflects on is, that she wouldn't be attracted to him, but rather to someone tall and conventionally good-looking. 

Maybe it doesn't equal him thinking he would be the best choice but since he is, of all the Lannisters, the best choice for her & because he thinks about the way this choice is going to affect her it seems to reason that he believes he is the best choice for her.  

Well, I wasn't talking about only what he "reflects" on but his thoughts as well as his words & "that she wouldn't be attracted to him" is hardly all he thinks or says irt this. There is discussion between him & Tywin in which it's made clear he intends to be kind to her, there is the reference you are talking about, which says while he is no "knight of flowers" he is neither "Joffrey" so he isn't pretty but he isn't cruel, is what he is telling her there. There is the whole exchange in his own mind Corbon posted earlier about his thoughts & wants where Sansa is concerened. 

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7 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

She was a bed warmed as far as I can recall. So we can get into a nice little can of worms on the morality of that. Let's just agree that morally it wasn't ok at all but it wasn't quite rape either. Also it is still unclear if she was a slave or paid prostitute, so let's call it unclear consent.

No, she was a slave.  It was rape, and meant to be read as such.  There's not much debate about the morality of it.  

Tyrion molested Sansa, and exposed himself to her.  Thankfully, he didn't go ahead with the rape in the end, but had she raised no objection, he would have taken her.  And, he wed her by force.  She's half his age, and a hostage.  His behaviour is not as bad as it could have been, but it is not good conduct.

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