Unconventional opinions dumpsterfire of a thread

[Elegant Woes]

I don't know what to say about Illyrio and Viserys' creepy thoughts on Dany. Like just what compelled GRRM to write these things?  It's one thing to say that young girls in medieval times married young, and even that is pretty debatable in my opinion, but it's a whole another topic when you make grown men lust after children. It really upsets me to read how Dany (and Sansa) are sexualized by the text and are lusted after by grown men. 

[Lollygag]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

@Lollygag sorry, I've read it, I just don't get it. I have to read those passages again to understand the context.

But like you I also didn't remember Illyrio and Viserys being into Dany, but finding it weird, that Drogo would want to marry such a young girl. So you are probably right.

No worries - think we're now discussing two different things. It's def weird - to put it lightly - that Drago is into young girls. I'm just saying GRRM always inserts commentary somewhere that a very young person/much older person is messed up. In Dany/Drago's case, he spoke through Viserys and Illyrio.

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I don't know, if GRRM wants to make a commentary about older men, who are into really young girls. There are just a bit to many of them, apparently Viserys and Illyrio as well. I just wish GRRM would have been clearer about what is culturally appropriate in universe in that regard. If child marriages are, he should have at least made that clearer IMO

I think these scenarios are here because it fits grrm's scheme of magic - not because he thinks they're realistic.

There seems to be a background theme about beauty or desirability so intense that the unfortunate woman is devoured (e.g. Aerys' wife, scenes from the HotU, Sansa's dream of the mob, maybe others). Maybe this is connected to the Others attraction to the stink of life in an infant, which sounds similar to Dany's experience in the HotU, being devoured by dream slaves/the Undying). And possibly this magical life/attraction/thing is stronger in the young - so maidens newly flowered have a lot.

Super-desirability is a problematic idea of itself - sort of saying the perpetrator had no control over his actions. So we really need the next book to resolve the issue.

ETA

'Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands... They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them...'

ETA

When dead small Paul arrives: "He's come for the babe," Gilly wept. "He smells him. A babe fresh-born stinks o' life. He's come for the life."

[Nagini's Neville]

4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

No worries - think we're now discussing two different things. It's def weird - to put it lightly - that Drago is into young girls. I'm just saying GRRM always inserts commentary somewhere that a very young person/much older person is messed up. In Dany/Drago's case, he spoke through Viserys and Illyrio.

Yes, but he has also called Danys and Drogos WN romantic. When I read the text I get the feeling he hasn't really made up his mind yet what message he wants to get across. Because relationships like that also have psychological consequences for the kids, but he glosses over that completely and on the contrary IMO did sexualize Drogo's and Dany's relationship and Dany herself since AGOT. 

[Nagini's Neville]

13 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

And possibly this magical life/attraction/thing is stronger in the young - so maidens newly flowered have a lot.

Gotta be honest, that's pretty disgusting and problematic IMO 

But I guess you are right a lot of "problems" we have probably come with the territory of discussing an unfinished book series.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

Yes, but he has also called Danys and Drogos WN romantic. When I read the text I get the feeling he hasn't really made up his mind yet what message he wants to get across. Because relationships like that also have psychological consequences for the kids, but he glosses over that completely and on the contrary IMO did sexualize Drogo's and Dany's relationship and Dany herself since AGOT. 

I don't get calling it romantic, but it could have been much, much worse for that world.

GRRM's writing a very harsh world, and even in rl, men are like this with too-young women. Modern woke views just don't fit here. I don't read ASOIAF and expect idealism and comfort. These uncomfortable things are there, but because of that, we also get to see how the characters, both male and female, struggle to deal with them. Dany was sold as a slave but she made the best of it and improved her situation. At the same time, slavery, especially of children (she was sold to Drago as a child), makes Dany go ballistic and her last chapter is strongly hinting that her mixed feelings about being sold by her brother and feeling obligated to him at the same time in combination with dealing with her buyer's/husband's khalasar is going to have her go full nuclear fire and blood on slavers. It's all rooted in her personal experiences. We see other characters struggle with similar situations in different ways.

 

[Springwatch]

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Gotta be honest, that's pretty disgusting and problematic IMO 

In everyone's opinion, I should think, including mine, as I said.

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But I guess you are right a lot of "problems" we have probably come with the territory of discussing an unfinished book series.

An unfinished fantasy series, with lots of gods and magic and destiny, and what seems to be gratuitous sexual abuse, incest, torture and so on.

I've just got a feeling this is going to wrapped up in the next books. A world twisted by magic gone wrong.

[Elegant Woes]

This is not the first time GRRM shared his rather unsavory thoughts on society. I mean he did say that a man who is an effective politician but also beats his wife behind closed doors could be a good person. It's possible he changed his views because of the massive culture shift in the last 5 years, or at least I hope so, but as it stands he does have this view. 

[Dot Com]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

The criticism is very clear and consistent, but I agree that it's been much too subtle and I'd rather it not be there at all if it's not absolutely necessary to the story. I took @SeanF post as sarcasm.

I'm not sure it is so clear... Esp in F&B, there are a lot of questionable relationships that are portrayed neutrally or even positively, like Corlys & Rhaenys. 

[Dot Com]

8 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

This is not the first time GRRM shared his rather unsavory thoughts on society. I mean he did say that a man who is an effective politician but also beats his wife behind closed doors could be a good person. 

I think he meant that a politician who behaves poorly in their personal life can still be a good leader, which is true, historically. He's reiterated this several times. 

[Lollygag]

5 minutes ago, Dot Com said:

I'm not sure it is so clear... Esp in F&B, there are a lot of questionable relationships that are portrayed neutrally or even positively, like Corlys & Rhaenys. 

Haven't read it so I can't say. The problem with the histories are that they were written from the perspective of a Westerosi just recording stuff/pushing a theory or view/kissing up to people in power so they aren't written at a literary level (characterization, themes, morals, etc) and that needs to be kept in mind. They're just different from the main books.

-------------------------

Coming full circle back to the OP:

While I love the characters in ASOIAF and think they're the best part of the books and what will keep the series memorable and relevant well into the future, I don't give a flying fig about the histories. I've only been able to manage really spotty reads of TWOIAF when I see a direct line to the main characters' arcs in the books proper and only bought it because it was pretty.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

5 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

GRRM's writing a very harsh world,

Sure, but if he is doing it in the service of realism. He should also actually do that IMO. And not just show one side of the coin- the predators and forget about the reality of the victim. If you gotta do it do it right IMO

9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

and even in rl, men are like this with too-young women.

Sure there are a lot of countries, where child-marriages are cultural acceptable and legal as well. That's why I would like to know wether being attracted to a 12/13/14 year old is perceived as problematic/wrong or not within universe. I'm more interested in the culture. There will always be people, who'll be attracted to "anything and everyone"

14 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Modern woke views just don't fit here. I don't read ASOIAF and expect idealism and comfort.

No, I don't care about woke. Just consistency and if you portray so much violence and sexual violence in the name of realism, you have a responsibility to actually make it realistic IMO. Otherwise it's just there to shock the reader, to tell them who evil and brutal a villain and the world is, but when it comes to the reality of portraying the consequences for the victims, GRRM shies away from that. He has described many brutal rape scenes from the outside, but has stated he will never do it from a pov- why? That's the other coin of that brutal reality he wants to show. There is a reason, why there were so many crazy ppl in the MA.

I guess I just want to have clarity about the culture, since it was not common to consummate marriages with 12/13 year old girls in the Middle Ages.

25 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Dany was sold as a slave but she made the best of it and improved her situation. At the same time, slavery, especially of children (she was sold to Drago as a child), makes Dany go ballistic and her last chapter is strongly hinting that her mixed feelings about being sold by her brother and feeling obligated to him at the same time in combination with dealing with her buyer's/husband's khalasar is going to have her go full nuclear fire and blood on slavers. It's all rooted in her personal experiences. We see other characters struggle with similar situations in different ways.

Yeah, but she still would have had to deal with at least some form of ptsd or some other symptoms, at the very least extreme self-esteem issues- those are things you can't just "rationalize" away. It's more in your body, than in your mind. He does it well with the Hound and also Tyrion, but IMO he doesn't do the female characters (Cersei and Arya are actually better though) especially Dany justice in that regard. Actually the same with Sansa, if a normal girl would have went through what she did with the Hound, she would have severe ptsd, but Sansa keeps his cloak, which would be highly triggering and doesn't have any intrusive flashbacks about him at all. She can think about him without getting a panic attack or a flashback.

[Lollygag]

6 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sure, but if he is doing it in the service of realism. He should also actually do that IMO. And not just show one side of the coin- the predators and forget about the reality of the victim. If you gotta do it do it right IMO 

Sure there are a lot of countries, where child-marriages are cultural acceptable and legal as well. That's why I would like to know wether being attracted to a 12/13/14 year old is perceived as problematic/wrong or not within universe. I'm more interested in the culture. There will always be people, who'll be attracted to "anything and everyone"

No, I don't care about woke. Just consistency and if you portray so much violence and sexual violence in the name of realism, you have a responsibility to actually make it realistic IMO. Otherwise it's just there to shock the reader, to tell them who evil and brutal a villain and the world is, but when it comes to the reality of portraying the consequences for the victims, GRRM shies away from that. He has described many brutal rape scenes from the outside, but has stated he will never do it from a pov- why? That's the other coin of that brutal reality he wants to show. There is a reason, why there were so many crazy ppl in the MA.

I guess I just want to have clarity about the culture, since it was not common to consummate marriages with 12/13 year old girls in the Middle Ages.

Yeah, but she still would have had to deal with at least some form of ptsd or some other symptoms, at the very least extreme self-esteem issues- those are things you can't just "rationalize" away. It's more in your body, than in your mind. He does it well with the Hound and also Tyrion, but IMO he doesn't do the female characters (Cersei and Arya are actually better though) especially Dany justice in that regard. Actually the same with Sansa, if a normal girl would have went through what she did with the Hound, she would have severe ptsd, but Sansa keeps his cloak, which would be highly triggering and doesn't have any intrusive flashbacks about him at all. She can think about him without getting a panic attack or a flashback.

Perhaps start another thread if you want to continue? I don't want to derail this one any further.

[Nevets]

9 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

guess I just want to have clarity about the culture, since it was not common to consummate marriages with 12/13 year old girls in the Middle Ages.

It's not that common in Westeros either.  In the main story I can think of only 3 marriages that were, or were supposed to be, consummated before the girl was 16: Dany/Drogo, Tyrion/Sansa, and fArya/Ramsay.   Hardly typical.  

Tyrion definitely didn't want a 12 year-old as his wife.  Ramsay is Ramsay, and we don't really know that much about Drogo's preferences.

Littlefinger's interest in Sansa is troubling, and is intended to be.  I think Sandor's interest in Sansa is mostly protective in nature.  

That's all for now. I don't want to derail things further.

[Nagini's Neville]

12 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Perhaps start another thread if you want to continue? I don't want to derail this one any further.

Yeah, you're right. maybe some day I will. rn I'm a bit to lazy+ already said everything I've got. And we already had two threads lately about the age issue, without a lot of progress being made in gaining clarity. "One team" believed, when you had your period, you are perceived as a woman basically in general. the other thought that was still too young, if the girl was 12/13 even in universe. I agree with the later since it usually was in the MA as well.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, you're right. maybe some day I will. rn I'm a bit to lazy+ already said everything I've got. And we already had two threads lately about the age issue, without a lot of progress being made in gaining clarity. "One team" believed, when you had your period you are perceived as a woman basically generally. the other thought that was still too young, she you were12/13 even in universe. I agreed with the later since it usually was in the MA as well.

This is why I tended to avoid those threads. Child one day, adult the very next... smh.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

35 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sure there are a lot of countries, where child-marriages are cultural acceptable and legal as well. That's why I would like to know wether being attracted to a 12/13/14 year old is perceived as problematic/wrong or not within universe. I'm more interested in the culture. There will always be people, who'll be attracted to "anything and everyone"

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Modern woke views just don't fit here. I don't read ASOIAF and expect idealism and comfort.

No, I don't care about woke. Just consistency and if you portray so much violence and sexual violence in the name of realism, you have a responsibility to actually make it realistic IMO. Otherwise it's just there to shock the reader, to tell them who evil and brutal a villain and the world is, but when it comes to the reality of portraying the consequences for the victims, GRRM shies away from that. He has described many brutal rape scenes from the outside, but has stated he will never do it from a pov- why? That's the other coin of that brutal reality he wants to show. There is a reason, why there were so many crazy ppl in the MA.

I guess I just want to have clarity about the culture, since it was not common to consummate marriages with 12/13 year old girls in the Middle Ages.

I think is the end it's not about realism or anything else. It's about the story. At the beginning of the story Dany is an object no more no less, with no agency, no power and no personality, being used by Viserys exactly as such. Her ,,consenting" is her first act of agency in the story and her first step towards gaining power, initially through Drogo. It's followed by the first time they have sex as equals some time later, again showing even more agency and power. Dany early on becomes a character with power and will through her husband (something she will lose by the end of the book, leading to her gaining power in her own right), so that small thing of her agreeing is the first thing she does to show said power and agency. It might be a small almost insignificant thing but it is there, and is her first step. So I think this part is neither about realism or sexuality, just about character.

[SeanF]

Dany's influence in the Khalasar depends in large measure upon her skill at giving blow jobs, after Doreah has taught her how to do so.  That's not a great position for a 13 year old.

[Nagini's Neville]

18 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think Sandor's interest in Sansa is mostly protective in nature.  

I generally agree. IMO his interest in Sansa was definitely not as sexual/romantically motivated as some other ppl think. At least in wasn't grounded it that.

But then there was also this:

“You look almost a woman … face, teats, and you’re taller too, almost … ah, you’re still a stupid little bird, aren’t you?

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 2

"He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her."

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 8

"I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.”

A Storm of Swords, Arya 12

 

[Nagini's Neville]

11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think is the end it's not about realism or anything else. It's about the story. At the beginning of the story Dany is an object no more no less, with no agency, no power and no personality, being used by Viserys exactly as such. Her ,,consenting" is her first act of agency in the story and her first step towards gaining power, initially through Drogo. It's followed by the first time they have sex as equals some time later, again showing even more agency and power. Dany early on becomes a character with power and will through her husband (something she will lose by the end of the book, leading to her gaining power in her own right), so that small thing of her agreeing is the first thing she does to show said power and agency. It might be a small almost insignificant thing but it is there, and is her first step. So I think this part is neither about realism or sexuality, just about character.

That's fine for me, but GRRM has always justified this portrayal of those things like child marriages, 13 year olds having sex and sexual violence with realism.

Also sorry for derailing the thread!