Jump to content

Why do the Others need to invade?


Tyrion1991

Recommended Posts

If the Long Night means a permanent worldwide Siberian winter covering the world and the sun disappearing then wouldn’t that on its own kill all of humanity? I get that it’s less immediate a threat than an army of the Undead. But it’s a little melodramatic and not showing a faction being self aware of its own ability. It feels like the sort of conceit George insists he’s not about.

The only reason the Others would need to attack is if:

- More corpses means more power which means more winter. The Others bring winter.

- They need to destroy humans before they can conduct some kind of magic to bring back summer. Winter brings the Others and that means Summer sends them away.

On a related point. Do you think George has ironed out the lore and magic of the Others? What they are, what their motive is and how their magic works? Or do you think he’s putting it together as he goes? Like he just has them as this I’ll defined greater threat and cloaks them in mystery.

Do you think George is even going to provide such answers. At present we know so little that if he revealed the Others were aliens who had hopped out of their space ship (comet) it would not be contradicting too much lore. Is the series going to wrap and no explanation provided? Most fantasy series built on mystery do drip feed and provide a lot more information earlier. Considering it’s the penultimate novel and we know basically nothing it’s a little disconcerting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

The Long Night is not permanent.  That's why it's not called The Permanent Night.  It will last for decades but Spring eventually comes back.  The White Walkers take advantage of the night and make their advance.  They cannot move where it's warm and sunny.

 

I don’t think most plants can go with no sunlight for decades. Without plants we all starve. 

Plus a decades long Siberian winter isn’t something that’s sustainable. That’s disaster level nightmare fuel. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

If the Long Night means a permanent worldwide Siberian winter covering the world and the sun disappearing then wouldn’t that on its own kill all of humanity? I get that it’s less immediate a threat than an army of the Undead. But it’s a little melodramatic and not showing a faction being self aware of its own ability. It feels like the sort of conceit George insists he’s not about.

The only reason the Others would need to attack is if:

- More corpses means more power which means more winter. The Others bring winter.

- They need to destroy humans before they can conduct some kind of magic to bring back summer. Winter brings the Others and that means Summer sends them away.

On a related point. Do you think George has ironed out the lore and magic of the Others? What they are, what their motive is and how their magic works? Or do you think he’s putting it together as he goes? Like he just has them as this I’ll defined greater threat and cloaks them in mystery.

Do you think George is even going to provide such answers. At present we know so little that if he revealed the Others were aliens who had hopped out of their space ship (comet) it would not be contradicting too much lore. Is the series going to wrap and no explanation provided? Most fantasy series built on mystery do drip feed and provide a lot more information earlier. Considering it’s the penultimate novel and we know basically nothing it’s a little disconcerting.

So far, though, there's no real evidence that they are marching on the Wall, are intent on breaching it, or have any desire to kill all mankind, is there? We've seen one little skirmish nine days north of the Wall, another single Walker some distance south of the fist. And even if you do accept the premise that the Others are the ones raising and controlling the wights, there was one major attack on the Fist followed by . . . nothing. This undead army is never seen again, not even by Mance who marches his entire host right past the Fist on the way to the Wall.

So as difficult as this may be to accept, I think it is a very distinct possibility that the Others do not pose the dire threat to humanity that most of the readership has come to expect, and that, like the abomination, the battle between the living and the dead will not be the climax of the series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

If the Long Night means a permanent worldwide Siberian winter covering the world and the sun disappearing then wouldn’t that on its own kill all of humanity?

In general winters seem to have been getting shorter and summers longer.  
So the actual threat to the world may be an Eternal Summer.  

Which may mean the Others are only showing up now to try and stop the world from burning.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

I don’t think most plants can go with no sunlight for decades. Without plants we all starve. 

Plus a decades long Siberian winter isn’t something that’s sustainable. That’s disaster level nightmare fuel. 

 

In theory no plants(and certainly no crops) could survive the weird seasons of Planetos, but they magically do

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The books are pretty clear that the Others bring the cold not unlike how Dany was told her dragons brought back pyromancy magic.

I think GRRM has had the magic of the Others worked out from the beginning (it was the very first thing in the series) but wouldn't be surprised at all if he hasn't expanded it and fleshed it out over time.

Their motive: the Game of Thrones of course. What exactly might that look like? We'll have to wait and see.

I think we'll learn enough to make the story satisfying. GRRM's really good at judging that just enough limit for the readers. He'll leave some stuff to be figured out only with a lot of analysis, but some I can see him not telling at all.

 

 


AGOT Prologue

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Long Night

Yet there are other tales—harder to credit and yet more central to the old histories—about creatures known as the Others. According to these tales, they came from the frozen Land of Always Winter, bringing the cold and darkness with them as they sought to extinguish all light and warmth. The tales go on to say they rode monstrous ice spiders and the horses of the dead, resurrected to serve them, just as they resurrected dead men to fight on their behalf.

AGOT Bran IV

Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

ADWD Jon IV (inside the meat locker inside the Wall which has an iron door unlike the usual wood doors, iron hooks, and everything keeps longer in there).

"And soon inside it," said Marsh. "The meat won't spoil in the cold. For long storage, it's better than salting."

The next door was made of rusty iron. Behind it was a flight of wooden steps. Dolorous Edd led the way with his lantern. Up top they found a tunnel as long as Winterfell's great hall though no wider than the wormways. The walls were ice, bristling with iron hooks. From each hook hung a carcass: skinned deer and elk, sides of beef, huge sows swinging from the ceiling, headless sheep and goats, even horse and bear. Hoarfrost covered everything.

As they did their count, Jon peeled the glove off his left hand and touched the nearest haunch of venison. He could feel his fingers sticking, and when he pulled them back he lost a bit of skin. His fingertips were numb. What did you expect? There's a mountain of ice above your head, more tons than even Bowen Marsh could count. Even so, the room felt colder than it should.

ADWD Jon XII

"They never came in force, if that's your meaning, but they were with us all the same, nibbling at our edges. We lost more outriders than I care to think about, and it was worth your life to fall behind or wander off. Every nightfall we'd ring our camps with fire. They don't like fire much, and no mistake. When the snows came, though … snow and sleet and freezing rain, it's bloody hard to find dry wood or get your kindling lit, and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like that, you always find some dead come the morning. 'Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd … my boy, he …' Tormund turned his face away.

"I know," said Jon Snow.

Tormund turned back. "You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So far, though, there's no real evidence that they are marching on the Wall, are intent on breaching it, or have any desire to kill all mankind, is there? We've seen one little skirmish nine days north of the Wall, another single Walker some distance south of the fist. And even if you do accept the premise that the Others are the ones raising and controlling the wights, there was one major attack on the Fist followed by . . . nothing. This undead army is never seen again, not even by Mance who marches his entire host right past the Fist on the way to the Wall.

So as difficult as this may be to accept, I think it is a very distinct possibility that the Others do not pose the dire threat to humanity that most of the readership has come to expect, and that, like the abomination, the battle between the living and the dead will not be the climax of the series.

 

Or, the author has let the story get ahead of him and he’s been in a holding pattern with the threat of the Others. This is a pacing issue. The story was only ever meant to be a trilogy and George didn’t think his endgame was going to take Thirty plus Years and Seven books. 

So he’s had to maintain the mystery and can’t escalate the threat. It’s not really an expectation, there would be little point to Jon or Brans arc if this whole time this threat has been non existent. He’s kind of told us this is going to be the case and there’s nothing to disprove this beyond their absence from the story.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So far, though, there's no real evidence that they are marching on the Wall, are intent on breaching it, or have any desire to kill all mankind, is there?

The pitch letter describes them as hating all life, which fits with the legends about the previous Long Night. And so far it seems like they've concentrated their attacks on members of the Nights Watch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Or, the author has let the story get ahead of him and he’s been in a holding pattern with the threat of the Others. This is a pacing issue. The story was only ever meant to be a trilogy and George didn’t think his endgame was going to take Thirty plus Years and Seven books. 

So he’s had to maintain the mystery and can’t escalate the threat. It’s not really an expectation, there would be little point to Jon or Brans arc if this whole time this threat has been non existent. He’s kind of told us this is going to be the case and there’s nothing to disprove this beyond their absence from the story.

 

Quite true, but we don't really know where Jon and Bran's arcs are heading. Nor can we be certain that the horror that Bran saw in his coma dream was the Others or something else.

So there is still plenty of wiggle room when it comes the Others, who they are, what they want . . .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The pitch letter describes them as hating all life, which fits with the legends about the previous Long Night. And so far it seems like they've concentrated their attacks on members of the Nights Watch.

The pitch letter? You mean the initial outline sent to the publisher way back in 1996, when it was supposed to be a trilogy? The "hating all life" thing is from Old Nan, which is a one-sided perspective, no? She also calls them "dead things", but Martin has confirmed for us that they are not dead, but "a different sort of life . . . inhuman, elegant, dangerous."

And I don't think we can conclude that they are focusing on the NW just because these are the only PoVs we have of the encounters. Tormund tells Jon that the Others preyed on Mance's host all the way from the Frostfangs to the Wall, but never attacking in force.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

We don't know if the Long Night can be taken to literally mean a seasonal event that humanity could not survive. We do know the Others have a use for human babies.

When dead small Paul arrives: "He's come for the babe," Gilly wept. "He smells him. A babe fresh-born stinks o'life. He's come for the life."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So some other replies have kinda touched on this but I would guess, based on the fact that they seem to need human babies, that the others can not reproduce sexually, they require a human to transform somehow. It also seems that adult humans are not viable candidates for this process, since they turn them to wights not into others. This could possibly be entirely cultural though, adults(even small children) might retain memories of thier "life" and not fall in line with the WW agenda, babies can be indoctrinated much easier.

Kinda tinfoil I know, but not impossible in my opinion, especially considering George's quotes about the others and thier "culture"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/16/2020 at 9:11 AM, John Suburbs said:

The pitch letter? You mean the initial outline sent to the publisher way back in 1996, when it was supposed to be a trilogy? The "hating all life" thing is from Old Nan, which is a one-sided perspective, no? She also calls them "dead things", but Martin has confirmed for us that they are not dead, but "a different sort of life . . . inhuman, elegant, dangerous."

The series has expanded from the pitch letter, but the basic elements remain, even if many wound up being done differently. The Others haven't really expanded, but instead have been mostly off page. Given all the subplots GRRM has to wrap up, I really don't think he has time/space to complicate the Others this late in the story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/15/2020 at 9:19 AM, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

The Long Night is not permanent.  That's why it's not called The Permanent Night.  It will last for decades but Spring eventually comes back.  The White Walkers take advantage of the night and make their advance.  They cannot move where it's warm and sunny.

 

No I'm pretty sure they can pull off an Ice Age if left to their own devices and those can go on for geological time periods.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The series has expanded from the pitch letter, but the basic elements remain, even if many wound up being done differently. The Others haven't really expanded, but instead have been mostly off page. Given all the subplots GRRM has to wrap up, I really don't think he has time/space to complicate the Others this late in the story.

Well that's just it. By not having them as the ultimate enemy in the story, he de-complicates the Others while at the same time massively subverting the readers' expectations, which he also loves to do. Then there is no great war for the dawn, no final showdown with a Night King, just a reveal of the horror that Bran saw in his coma dream which may or may not be threatening to bring on a Long Night and might not have to be defeated through a climactic battle pitting the living against the dead.

I dunno. I'm just spit-balling here. But as yet, there is not real indication (it that's what your referring to by 'basic elements') of the Other's intent or what, if any, connection they have with the wights.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/15/2020 at 9:19 AM, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

The Long Night is not permanent.  That's why it's not called The Permanent Night.  It will last for decades but Spring eventually comes back.  The White Walkers take advantage of the night and make their advance.  They cannot move where it's warm and sunny.

The long night in an area close to the pole could be an arctic winter when the sun disappears below the horizon for months.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...