Jump to content

Why do the Others need to invade?


Tyrion1991

Recommended Posts

34 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And that would make aSoIaF the same trope-filled battle of good vs. evil that Martin has said is exactly what is wrong with fantasy literature today. It's just as old and tired as the orphan boy who turns out to be the rightful king, the helpless maiden rescued by the pure, shining knight, the son who avenges his father, and all the rest.

I would be extremely surprised if Martin were to conclude the series in such a predictable way.

I'm not saying if they are good or bad, but they clearly are an existential threat to Westeros against which the realm clearly need to unite, and will do so, learning to finally forgive and end the very long cycle of hate and vengeance that has been plaguing Westeros.

36 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

orphan boy who turns out to be the rightful king

bastard not orphan

37 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I would be extremely surprised if Martin were to conclude the series in such a predictable way.

If it works for the story, then being predictable isn't a problem. The end should be the one that best bring the characters and story to a good satisfying end (not saying it should be a happy one, but it should be satisfying), not the one that best ,,subverts out expectations". I mean if we're going down this route why have Jon, the person who has been most connected to the Others be the Hero against them. Nah that's too predictable. How about someone else, I dunno, off the top of my head... Arya. It's not predictable so it must be good.

Don't get me wrong I love a good twist as much as the next fellow, but you have to set a twist up. Put it this way, the Red Wedding is surprising, but it's logical in both the narrative and meta-narrative sense, the Freys would naturally do something like this, and it's necessary to the story to have Robb suffer as result of his numerous fuck-ups. The Others who have given no sense of diplomacy (it's highly doubtful they can even communicate) and who are an existential threat to mankind, suddenly going for diplomacy seems as likely and build up as Arya Stark single handedly ending the Long Night.

If there is one thing above all else we should learn from the abomination is that shocking and subversive narrative beats, aren't something good. On themselves they are neutral, with their execution, context and necessity making them either a good thing or a bad thing (see either the Red Wedding or GOT 8). But ,,subverting expectation" should never be a goal. If a predictable ending is the best one, I don't see the problem, do you? It's as GRRM said, if you design the story that the butler did it, even though people already figured out that the butler did it, it's better then changing it halfway through that the maid did it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/15/2020 at 4:29 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

If the Long Night means a permanent worldwide Siberian winter covering the world and the sun disappearing then wouldn’t that on its own kill all of humanity? I get that it’s less immediate a threat than an army of the Undead. But it’s a little melodramatic and not showing a faction being self aware of its own ability. It feels like the sort of conceit George insists he’s not about.

The only reason the Others would need to attack is if:

- More corpses means more power which means more winter. The Others bring winter.

- They need to destroy humans before they can conduct some kind of magic to bring back summer. Winter brings the Others and that means Summer sends them away.

On a related point. Do you think George has ironed out the lore and magic of the Others? What they are, what their motive is and how their magic works? Or do you think he’s putting it together as he goes? Like he just has them as this I’ll defined greater threat and cloaks them in mystery.

Do you think George is even going to provide such answers. At present we know so little that if he revealed the Others were aliens who had hopped out of their space ship (comet) it would not be contradicting too much lore. Is the series going to wrap and no explanation provided? Most fantasy series built on mystery do drip feed and provide a lot more information earlier. Considering it’s the penultimate novel and we know basically nothing it’s a little disconcerting.

My personal hypothesis: the Winter isn't caused by the Others at all. The Winter is a doomsday weapon created by the Children of the Forest to force the surrender of the First Men. Many First Men capitulated, and began to worship the Children's ancestor-trees as their Gods as required by the Children, resulting in the culture we see in the North in the novels. The Others are those who sought another way: they used magic to adapt themselves to the Winter instead. When the rest of humanity surrendered and the Children called off the Winter, the Others were unable to readapt to a normal climate and were forced north where it was still cold enough to survive (and even then it seems they likely had to hibernate).

The Others are returning now because the Winter is returning, not the other way around. And the Winter is coming back because it's on a deadman switch tied to a variety of conditions the humans are required to maintain as a part of the 8000 year old treaty. One of which is probably "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell". The few remaining Children likely have no control over it at all.

If this is true, it's possible they see the Starks and the other humans as cowards at best, collaborators at worst. They would feel justified killing them to take back their lands, much as the French Resistance would have felt for the Vichy regime put in place by the Nazis during WWII.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

bastard not orphan

Well, his parents are both dead, supposedly, so that makes him an orphan. And even if one, or both, are still alive, they gave him up to be raised by another, which also makes him an orphan.

And he may or may not be an actual bastard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/27/2020 at 10:49 AM, John Suburbs said:

We've seen ironmen and Lannisters attack Starks, does this mean they are in league or that one is controlling the other?

Balon actually does try to make an alliance with Tywin. He just went about things opposite the normal order because he's an idiot.

Quote

Wolves attack men, as do bears, shadowcats and lizard lions. Are they all connected somehow?

The Others have language and weapons, and wights at least seem to remember some of their former lives. Wild animals don't act like an army, as the wights did at the Fist.

Quote

No one saw, or reported, an Other at the fist. Not one. So seeing that there is no code for each, it makes perfect sense that three blasts were sounded because they were clearly not rangers or wildlings. You're grasping at straws here.

The code for Others exists because in long distant history, the Others attacked before. And it's from that history that people like Nan know of the connection between Others and wights.

Quote

There is still no basis to conclude beyond doubt that the wights and the Others are related just because of tales that were told and retold thousands of years before recorded history.

The maesters skeptical of magic things in the distant past tend to be wrong, because in this world magic is real.

Quote

Cersei had enough wildfire to destroy the Baratheon fleet, and her own. The guild can make it very quickly. When faced with extinction, you use whatever you have.

The Guild isn't located at Castle Black, and a dangerous substance like wildfire wouldn't be easily transportable.

Quote

Killed by Others, but raised hours, literally all night long, after they had left. We have no real knowledge as to how Waymar was raised, why he was raised, or who did it. But the Others had most definitely left the scene.

There was no one else to raise him. Not enough other characters had even been introduced by that point, and we certainly haven't met any Red Priests who were running around north of the Wall resurrecting people.

 

On 4/27/2020 at 10:53 AM, John Suburbs said:

And that would make aSoIaF the same trope-filled battle of good vs. evil that Martin has said is exactly what is wrong with fantasy literature today.

If he made the Others and wights independent species which just happen to be attacking the Watch at the same time, but wouldn't be parsimonious, but it also wouldn't be any less black-and-white. GRRM's preference for "the human heart in conflict with itself" is expressed by him focusing more on the human characters, rather than making Others/wights morally ambiguous.

Quote

It's just as old and tired as the orphan boy who turns out to be the rightful king

I really dislike the cliche, but GRRM still seems to be using it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/28/2020 at 3:49 AM, John Suburbs said:

No one saw, or reported, an Other at the fist. Not one. So seeing that there is no code for each, it makes perfect sense that three blasts were sounded because they were clearly not rangers or wildlings. You're grasping at straws here.

Dagmar is real too, and his much more recent story is full of falsehoods. There is still no basis to conclude beyond doubt that the wights and the Others are related just because of tales that were told and retold thousands of years before recorded history.

The Nights Watch comes late to the fight against the Others and the wights. There are people who have been battling them a long time already before the Nights Watch even knows they are back.

Quote

Tormund turned back. "You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"

Tormund may or may not know the truth. But there is no doubt he's got a vast amount more experience than any of the Nights Watch in fighting both the undead and the Others.
And he calls the Others the masters of the undead. 

Not beyond doubt maybe. But there is basis to conclude that, both ancient and current. There is no basis to dispute it,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Balon actually does try to make an alliance with Tywin. He just went about things opposite the normal order because he's an idiot.

The Others have language and weapons, and wights at least seem to remember some of their former lives. Wild animals don't act like an army, as the wights did at the Fist.

The code for Others exists because in long distant history, the Others attacked before. And it's from that history that people like Nan know of the connection between Others and wights.

The maesters skeptical of magic things in the distant past tend to be wrong, because in this world magic is real.

The Guild isn't located at Castle Black, and a dangerous substance like wildfire wouldn't be easily transportable.

There was no one else to raise him. Not enough other characters had even been introduced by that point, and we certainly haven't met any Red Priests who were running around north of the Wall resurrecting people.

 

If he made the Others and wights independent species which just happen to be attacking the Watch at the same time, but wouldn't be parsimonious, but it also wouldn't be any less black-and-white. GRRM's preference for "the human heart in conflict with itself" is expressed by him focusing more on the human characters, rather than making Others/wights morally ambiguous.

I really dislike the cliche, but GRRM still seems to be using it.

OK, so no alliance between ironmen and Lannisters. They are both attacking independently from one another.

OK, so Others are intelligent and wights seem to retain some knowledge. So how does this create a link between them versus, some other power that has yet to be revealed, such as the horror Bran saw in the HoW?

There is no code of wights, so three blasts is the only logical thing to do. Nobody saw an Other at the First, nobody reported seeing any Others at the Fist.

By history, you mean old legends that had kings living for thousands of years and knights before there were any knights. Old Nan can't even get the story of Dagmar Cleftjaw straight, let alone what supposedly happened before there was a written language.

Since when does the fall of Castle Black equate to the invasion of Westeros and the destruction of all mankind? Once the threat to the realm is verified, they have all they need to quash is: dragonglass, wildfire and dragons. Narratively, the Others have already been removed as this dire threat to civilization because they are vulnerable to things that men have in abundance.

Just because you don't see how Waymar was raised or by whom doesn't eliminate any other possibility. If the Others wanted to raise Waymar, why did they literally wait all night long to do so? Why bother fighting at all when they can just direct their wights to do their killing for them? 

It would make the supposedly evil beings morally ambiguous, just like people. It would conform to Martin's dismissiveness of black/white fantasy tropes. It would add a real twist to the plot rather than yet another predictable battle-for-all-humanity. In short, it would make aSoIaF unlike anything you have read before, which is Martin's goal.

Are you sure he's using the orphan boy cliché? Perhaps not. We'll have to wait and see.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, corbon said:

The Nights Watch comes late to the fight against the Others and the wights. There are people who have been battling them a long time already before the Nights Watch even knows they are back.

Tormund may or may not know the truth. But there is no doubt he's got a vast amount more experience than any of the Nights Watch in fighting both the undead and the Others.
And he calls the Others the masters of the undead. 

Not beyond doubt maybe. But there is basis to conclude that, both ancient and current. There is no basis to dispute it,

Again, just because their appearance coincides doesn't mean one is creating and controlling the other. Birds and bees both appear in the spring. Are the birds creating and controlling the bees?

There was a basis (all kinds of bases, really), that Cersei and/or Jaime killed Jon Arryn, right up to Pycelle telling us "she wanted him dead." How did that pan out?

Martin is a master at this king of sleight of hand. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, just because their appearance coincides doesn't mean one is creating and controlling the other. Birds and bees both appear in the spring. Are the birds creating and controlling the bees?

There was a basis (all kinds of bases, really), that Cersei and/or Jaime killed Jon Arryn, right up to Pycelle telling us "she wanted him dead." How did that pan out?

Martin is a master at this king of sleight of hand. 

Its better than making shit up ourselves because we don't like the shit we've been given. When we get more data, opinions may change to fit that data. In the mean time, the data we have, collectively, consistently, points in one direction. Denying it for no good reason is just contrarian nonsense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/8/2020 at 3:03 PM, corbon said:

Its better than making shit up ourselves because we don't like the shit we've been given. When we get more data, opinions may change to fit that data. In the mean time, the data we have, collectively, consistently, points in one direction. Denying it for no good reason is just contrarian nonsense.

What "data" are you talking about? There is no data here. Nothing, neither collectively nor consistently, points to Others raising and controlling wights. All that's happened is you've taken a few scraps of circumstantial evidence and rationalized it into a preconceived notion of what fantasy novels should be about, which is in direct contrast to what Martin thinks.

And when we compare this to mistruths that did have actual data to back them, such as the Arryn murder, we can see how Martin could easily mislead us into thinking the Others and wights are connected when they really aren't. I'm not saying this is definitely the case, but there is still no evidence to support it, so it would be the height of nonsense to conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/15/2020 at 7:29 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

On a related point. Do you think George has ironed out the lore and magic of the Others? What they are, what their motive is and how their magic works? Or do you think he’s putting it together as he goes? Like he just has them as this I’ll defined greater threat and cloaks them in mystery.

I think he has put quite a bit thought into it.  Starting with the legends.  In particular, I'm thinking of the Last Hero and the first appearance of the Others.  We are told he defeated the Others to end the long night.   How he defeated an army of the undead by himself is the question.  This must have been a trial by combat before the gods.  The cotf gave him a weapon, likely an obsidian sword.  He defeats his opponent and then what?

I think Mel gives us a bit of a clue when she call the ancient enemy the soul of ice.  If you believe that magic swords contain a will of their own or a part of their master's soul; then potentially, the soul of ice is referring to the Stark sword Ice rather than it's substitute the valyrian steel sword.  In other words the Last Hero claimed the sword of his opponent which gave him dominion over the Others and he becomes the first King of Winter.  

Now his descendants are bound to guard the sword in the place where winter fell and also the Stark words.  

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell because: Winter is Coming.  This is the Stark Musgrave Ritual.  They know the words but not it's meaning or origin.  

It's likely the sword is hidden in the crypts and if Jon's dreams are any indication; he must find and claim the sword and become the King of Winter.  My guess is that he will have to contend with the soul of the sword and master it or he will become the thing that Bran saw in the heart of winter.  Mel's ancient enemy personified.  

The heart of winter also suggests the place where winter manifests first.  That appears to be Winterfell.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/15/2020 at 7:29 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

If the Long Night means a permanent worldwide Siberian winter covering the world and the sun disappearing then wouldn’t that on its own kill all of humanity? I get that it’s less immediate a threat than an army of the Undead. But it’s a little melodramatic and not showing a faction being self aware of its own ability. It feels like the sort of conceit George insists he’s not about.

The only reason the Others would need to attack is if:

- More corpses means more power which means more winter. The Others bring winter.

- They need to destroy humans before they can conduct some kind of magic to bring back summer. Winter brings the Others and that means Summer sends them away.

On a related point. Do you think George has ironed out the lore and magic of the Others? What they are, what their motive is and how their magic works? Or do you think he’s putting it together as he goes? Like he just has them as this I’ll defined greater threat and cloaks them in mystery.

Do you think George is even going to provide such answers. At present we know so little that if he revealed the Others were aliens who had hopped out of their space ship (comet) it would not be contradicting too much lore. Is the series going to wrap and no explanation provided? Most fantasy series built on mystery do drip feed and provide a lot more information earlier. Considering it’s the penultimate novel and we know basically nothing it’s a little disconcerting.

I hope George has ironed it out.  He has more than enough time to create their biology.  He should know what they are and how they came to be.  Why they want to attack was explained in Old Nan's story to Bran.  They hate the living.  I am pretty sure we will be told what caused this hate.  Humans only began to inhabit the west when the first men arrived.  Man took their lands and they want it back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

What "data" are you talking about? There is no data here. Nothing, neither collectively nor consistently, points to Others raising and controlling wights. All that's happened is you've taken a few scraps of circumstantial evidence and rationalized it into a preconceived notion of what fantasy novels should be about, which is in direct contrast to what Martin thinks.

Everything in the books is data. 
Data points must be assessed as to their origins, veracity, and likely accuracy. They may lead us in a wrong direction, either because they themselves are false, or because their presentation is misleading.

My point is that all the data points lead in the same direction. That the Others control the wights somehow. No data points suggest that the wights are not controlled by the Others..

Quote

Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

In old Nan's stories, the Others have dead servants, they ride dead horses and lead hosts of the slain. Old Nan's stories tell us the undead are controlled by the Others.
These stories are humanity's oral lore passed down. Much in them has been confirmed (ice spiders have not!), we should not discredit the rest without evidence (even the ice spiders, which may or may not appear).

For example, the Others do indeed ride dead horses.

Quote

The lower branches of the great green sentinel shed their burden of snow with a soft wet plop. Grenn spun, thrusting out his torch. "Who goes there?" A horse's head emerged from the darkness. Sam felt a moment's relief, until he saw the horse. Hoarfrost covered it like a sheen of frozen sweat, and a nest of stiff black entrails dragged from its open belly. On its back was a rider pale as ice. Sam made a whimpery sound deep in his throat. He was so scared he might have pissed himself all over again, but the cold was in him, a cold so savage that his bladder felt frozen solid. The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.

And this Other was pursuing the Nights Watch from the battle against the Wights at tFotFM. Which supports Old Nan's oral history that the Others lead armies of the dead (wights).
That no survivor from tFotFM saw Others and Wights together, does not prove that they were not there together, only that none of the survivors saw them together initially. But that both Others and undead conducted the pursuit is certainly supporting evidence that the Others and the Undead work together at the very least.  

Quote

"We do not ride for the Wall. We ride north, after Mance Rayder and these Others, these white shadows and their wights. We seek them, Gilly. Your babe would not be safe with us."

The belief of the Nights Watch is that the wights belong to the Others.
That may not be correct. This is a data point. Like the other data points we have to assess its veracity. We have to estimate its origin. What I assess here is that the Nights Watch is an ancient order with a huge institutional knowledge on this very subject, nearly all of which has been lost to the mists of time. Its also an institution that has, as its primary purposes and as part of its lore, defending the world of Man against the Others and their wights. That means that the NWs current 'wisdom' may be in error, but may also have deep foundations of truth. We don't know all that the NW knows or all that Jon or any other NW leader or researcher knows or has discussed. It is unwise to dismiss NW beliefs or rituals just because we do not know their foundations.

The Nights Watch believes that the undead are controlled by the Others.

Quote
There had been no attacks while they had been at Craster's, neither wights nor Others. Nor would there be, Craster said. "A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to that Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round. He never listened, no more'n you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. That won't help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods."
Gilly had spoken of the white cold as well, and she'd told them what sort of offerings Craster made to his gods. Sam had wanted to kill him when he heard. There are no laws beyond the Wall, he reminded himself, and Craster's a friend to the Watch.

Craster believes the Others and the wights work together. He 'sacrifices' to the cold gods and believes that thus the wights will leave him alone. 
The Cold Gods are the Others, the ones who come with the white cold, with mists and super-cooled air. And sacrificing to them prevents attacks from the undead, according to Craster.
So Craster believes the undead are controlled by the Others.

Quote
Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more."
"Demons made of snow and ice and cold," said Stannis Baratheon. "The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." He considered Sam again. "I am told that you and this wildling girl passed beneath the Wall, through some magic gate."

Melisandre believes the wights are animated by Necromancy, therefore controlled by something else. She (with Stannis) names the Others as the something more, the only enemy that matters.
If the Others are the only enemy that matters, and the wights are controlled by something else, then that something else is by definition, the Others, according to her.
Melisandre believes the Others are the masters of the wights.

Quote

Tormund turned back. "You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"

The dead have Masters, and the Masters come with teh white mists - thats the Others, who are also described with shadow references and super-cold air connections.
Tormunds been fighting this war against this enemy longer tyhan anyone we know. He has more and more current information than anyone. He believes the Others are the masters of the wights.

 

So we have:
 - Old Nan's stories, humanities collected lore in the form of oral histories which have already been proven true in some other, seemingly crazy, respects
 - the Nights Watch
 - Melisandre and her R'hlorrists
 - Craster
 - Tormund
all telling us the same thing, essentially. And I think all of these (perhaps not Old Nan so much in this particular respect) have experiences, knowledge or access to knowledge that we do not have access to. their judgement or beliefs may be incorrct, but we shoudl not dismiss them without reason. Especially not when they all essentially agree!

Plus we have the Other riding a dead horse and continuing the pursuit from tFotFM.

Against that you have.... "absence of evidence" (which is a dubious claim at best) but no actual evidence.

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And when we compare this to mistruths that did have actual data to back them, such as the Arryn murder, we can see how Martin could easily mislead us into thinking the Others and wights are connected when they really aren't. I'm not saying this is definitely the case,

It seems that way. You are arguing pretty strongly and saying all the evidence we have is wrong - not some of it, all of it, because it all points in one direction.

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

but there is still no evidence to support it,

Thats an outright lie on multiple levels.

Its not proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. It has a very strong case though with multiple evidence links from multiple directions in multiple time strands.

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

so it would be the height of nonsense to conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is.

If you wish to claim expertise on the height of nonsense, thats up to you.
That the Others control the wights is a very strong case, given what can and cannot be known so far by us, and there is no evidence or suggestion anywhere in the text that the wights are not controlled by the Others.
Which may change, with new data. I doubt it will, but new data will be assessed when it arrives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think he has put quite a bit thought into it.  Starting with the legends.  In particular, I'm thinking of the Last Hero and the first appearance of the Others.  We are told he defeated the Others to end the long night.   How he defeated an army of the undead by himself is the question.  This must have been a trial by combat before the gods.  The cotf gave him a weapon, likely an obsidian sword.  He defeats his opponent and then what?

I think Mel gives us a bit of a clue when she call the ancient enemy the soul of ice.  If you believe that magic swords contain a will of their own or a part of their master's soul; then potentially, the soul of ice is referring to the Stark sword Ice rather than it's substitute the valyrian steel sword.  In other words the Last Hero claimed the sword of his opponent which gave him dominion over the Others and he becomes the first King of Winter.  

Now his descendants are bound to guard the sword in the place where winter fell and also the Stark words.  

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell because: Winter is Coming.  This is the Stark Musgrave Ritual.  They know the words but not it's meaning or origin.  

It's likely the sword is hidden in the crypts and if Jon's dreams are any indication; he must find and claim the sword and become the King of Winter.  My guess is that he will have to contend with the soul of the sword and master it or he will become the thing that Bran saw in the heart of winter.  Mel's ancient enemy personified.  

The heart of winter also suggests the place where winter manifests first.  That appears to be Winterfell.   

Thats the most interesting idea regarding the connections between Jon, the Crypts of Winterfell, The Last Hero, the Kings of Winter, the name Winterfell, the Others, etc, that I've seen yet, I think.

Thanks. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/8/2020 at 11:22 AM, John Suburbs said:

OK, so no alliance between ironmen and Lannisters. They are both attacking independently from one another.

Balon is attacking the North because it's undefended while Robb is fighting the Lannisters, and he stupidly thinks he can ally with the Lannisters after the fact.

Quote

OK, so Others are intelligent and wights seem to retain some knowledge. So how does this create a link between them versus, some other power that has yet to be revealed, such as the horror Bran saw in the HoW?

The book series is most of the way through, and we've only got fleeting glimpses of the undead, but everyone thinks the Others are in league with the wights. Given all the thinks GRRM needs to accomplish by the end, why add some additional "other power that has yet to be revealed"? He could also reveal that the whole series has been the dream of a magic beetle, but I see no reason to speculate about that.

Quote

There is no code of wights, so three blasts is the only logical thing to do.

Why is there no code for wights as distinct from Others? Because in the experience of the Watch, they go together.

Quote

Once the threat to the realm is verified, they have all they need to quash is: dragonglass, wildfire and dragons. Narratively, the Others have already been removed as this dire threat to civilization because they are vulnerable to things that men have in abundance.

Haven't you ever seen a zombie film? Zombies are vulnerable to things modern civilization has in abundance, like bullets to the head, but they still manage to cause an apocalypse.

Quote

Just because you don't see how Waymar was raised or by whom doesn't eliminate any other possibility.

Chekov's gun is a principle of parsimony. Don't include the gun if it's not going to go off. He didn't even need to say not to have the gun on the wall if some gun nobody was aware of in the prior acts is going to go off instead.

Quote

If the Others wanted to raise Waymar, why did they literally wait all night long to do so?

To kill Will.

Quote

Why bother fighting at all when they can just direct their wights to do their killing for them?

That is admittedly something I don't have a Watsonian explanation for.

Quote

It would make the supposedly evil beings morally ambiguous

How would they be morally ambiguous? They're both still killing the Night's Watch and presumably wildlings.

Quote

Are you sure he's using the orphan boy cliché?

Jon Snow isn't actually an orphan, since he was raised by Ned (the only parent he's ever known) in Winterfell, but I am sure he's using the hidden-heir cliche.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Nothing, neither collectively nor consistently, points to Others raising and controlling wights.

Multiple characters have said as much. They've both only been seen north of the Wall, coinciding in the very first chapter. The only other time an Other has been seen is when Sam was fleeing the attack by wights at the Fist.

Quote

which is in direct contrast to what Martin thinks

GRRM has said he's more interested in the human heart in conflict with itself than fantasy bad guys, and indeed little of the text is devoted to the Others. However, even his human villains can be quite black-and-white. Additionally, he said that he dressed the Night's Watch in black precisely to avoid the usual black-hat vs white-hat thing, but the Watch are still the good guys while the Others are the bad guys. The Others are also graceful and strange rather than hideously ugly. Sansa initially found Joffrey handsome and charming, and reasoned that Loras rather than Ilyn Payne should be sent after Gregor due to their respective appearances. Cersei and Jaime are both good looking people who are secretly rotten, while the less superficially pleasing Yoren and Sandor actually protect the Stark girls. Jaime starts becoming morally grey when he's paired with Brienne, the completely pure-hearted but ugly woman (and he himself is mained) and later Ilyn Payne. You might think that's a merely superficial subversion, but GRRM seems to really like it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Thats the most interesting idea regarding the connections between Jon, the Crypts of Winterfell, The Last Hero, the Kings of Winter, the name Winterfell, the Others, etc, that I've seen yet, I think.

Thanks. 

No, thank you!  That makes my day. :cheers:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/27/2020 at 1:28 PM, Damon_Tor said:

My personal hypothesis: the Winter isn't caused by the Others at all. The Winter is a doomsday weapon created by the Children of the Forest to force the surrender of the First Men. Many First Men capitulated, and began to worship the Children's ancestor-trees as their Gods as required by the Children, resulting in the culture we see in the North in the novels. The Others are those who sought another way: they used magic to adapt themselves to the Winter instead. When the rest of humanity surrendered and the Children called off the Winter, the Others were unable to readapt to a normal climate and were forced north where it was still cold enough to survive (and even then it seems they likely had to hibernate).

The Others are returning now because the Winter is returning, not the other way around. And the Winter is coming back because it's on a deadman switch tied to a variety of conditions the humans are required to maintain as a part of the 8000 year old treaty. One of which is probably "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell". The few remaining Children likely have no control over it at all.

If this is true, it's possible they see the Starks and the other humans as cowards at best, collaborators at worst. They would feel justified killing them to take back their lands, much as the French Resistance would have felt for the Vichy regime put in place by the Nazis during WWII.

I like the theory.  Somebody broke the treaty.  

The Freefolk stopped giving their babies after Mance Rayder became the king.  He grew up in the Night's Watch.  His values would disagree with baby sacrificing and he did not continue.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/7/2020 at 5:15 PM, corbon said:

Tormund may or may not know the truth. But there is no doubt he's got a vast amount more experience than any of the Nights Watch in fighting both the undead and the Others.

I don't think the Others actually ever went away entirely.  

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."

Why give the Watch dragonglass if the Others didn't continue to present a danger?

 It seems to me that the Thenns (who speak the old tongue) have been collecting (or given) dragonglass as well.  They live on the northern most borders closest to the land of always winter so I'm guessing they would come in contact with the Others first and more frequently. when the cold comes. 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon IV

A length of frayed rope bound the bundle together. Jon unsheathed his dagger and cut it, groped for the edges of the cloth, and pulled. The bundle turned, and its contents spilled out onto the ground, glittering dark and bright. He saw a dozen knives, leaf-shaped spearheads, numerous arrowheads. Jon picked up a dagger blade, featherlight and shiny black, hiltless. Torchlight ran along its edge, a thin orange line that spoke of razor sharpness. Dragonglass. What the maesters call obsidian. Had Ghost uncovered some ancient cache of the children of the forest, buried here for thousands of years? The Fist of the First Men was an old place, only . . .

Beneath the dragonglass was an old warhorn, made from an auroch's horn and banded in bronze. Jon shook the dirt from inside it, and a stream of arrowheads fell out. He let them fall, and pulled up a corner of the cloth the weapons had been wrapped in, rubbing it between his fingers. Good wool, thick, a double weave, damp but not rotted. It could not have been long in the ground. And it was dark. He seized a handful and pulled it close to the torch. Not dark. Black.

Even before Jon stood and shook it out, he knew what he had: the black cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

The Magnar sent a dozen men riding west and a dozen more east, to climb the highest hills they could find and watch for any sign of rangers in the wood or riders on the high ice. The Thenns carried bronze-banded warhorns to give warning should the Watch be sighted. The other wildlings fell in behind Jarl,  Jon and Ygritte with the rest. This was to be the young raider's hour of glory.

|I'm thinking the cache of dragonglass was taken from Thenn outriders by a certain ranger of the Night Watch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...