Are the Starks Martin's uber men like family?

[frenin]

5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Why make them the aggressors in the story? That validates our characters opposition to them.

It really doesn't.

 

5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The North is a barbaric culture. 

It isn't.

 

5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Its a plot device. Dany going Mad would simply be a predetermined consequence of the weakness of her blood. Thus, there’s nothing to learn. Most people aren’t incestuous madmen.

Since most Targs don't go mad it's not a plot device, madness is a rather general way to talk about cruelty and stupidity.

But most of the cruel and stupid people weren't mad.

 

5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The Jews were expelled from Israel thousands of years ago yet that’s still topical today. Why should the historic memory of the North conveniently ignore all of the bad things they’ve supposedly done. It doesn’t matter if you say the Starks are dark in a sourcebook that’s had no bearing on the main story.

Israel is the promised land for the jews, it's sacred for them. I don't believe that it's sacred for the northmen.

It matters since those things happened thousands of years ago.

 

 

5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The flip a coin thing predates Aerys and they do talk about other Targaryens. It’s not just Aerys colouring their perception.

There are other Targs considered crazy, but the coin is relevant because the last to sit on that throne was the maddest of the all. And he happens to be the father or grandfather of the surviving Targs,

 

5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Because the Targaryens weren’t just being depicted as violent but strong. They were depicted as weak minded and flawed. Hence why so many of them died ignominiously . You don’t see this with the Starks. You just have Uber Stark Lord massacring his enemies and making their widows howl. That’s equating the Starks with power and strength. Whereas the Targaryen history implies that the bloodline is inherently flawed and a failure. You aren’t flipping a coin with the Starks. The dice are rigged.

As much as the Lannisters Arryns, Durrandons, Gardener... The Targs arenot depicted as weak minded,some are. But their very founding was all that you can't stand. 

We know that back in the day, people were pissed off with Aegon, we don't hear the same now.

 

 

5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It’s not everyone. If it was then why do people sympathise and relate to the Starks? If as you say they’re war criminals and their rule unjust then how can you root for them as characters?

Their rule is as unjust as the hold yankees have over their country or as just as any country since were built in blood, it happened a lot of time ago and it's at all related to the current Starks, why would you resent somwthing that happened a millenia ago.

 

 

5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Its entirely the case. George has his biases. 

Not about that.

 

 

 

 

[Tyrion1991]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It really doesn't.

 

It isn't.

 

Since most Targs don't go mad it's not a plot device, madness is a rather general way to talk about cruelty and stupidity.

But most of the cruel and stupid people weren't mad.

 

Israel is the promised land for the jews, it's sacred for them. I don't believe that it's sacred for the northmen.

It matters since those things happened thousands of years ago.

 

 

There are other Targs considered crazy, but the coin is relevant because the last to sit on that throne was the maddest of the all. And he happens to be the father or grandfather of the surviving Targs,

 

As much as the Lannisters Arryns, Durrandons, Gardener... The Targs arenot depicted as weak minded,some are. But their very founding was all that you can't stand. 

We know that back in the day, people were pissed off with Aegon, we don't hear the same now.

 

 

Their rule is as unjust as the hold yankees have over their country or as just as any country since were built in blood, it happened a lot of time ago and it's at all related to the current Starks, why would you resent somwthing that happened a millenia ago.

 

 

Not about that.

 

 

 

 

 

It does matter that it’s the Wildlings pushing against a static wall and are the aggressor. In the real world the NW would be actively culling the Wildlings and advocating settlement beyond the wall similar to how Russia took Siberia. It’s not realistic to have only one side be attacking the status quo and most readers will side with the defensive party. Framing it in that light makes it one sided.

They are a barbaric society. A criminal syndicate whose only “virtue” is archaic notions of family and honour. They have no towns or urban centres not gifted to them by more advanced people. They have no culture or formal religion. They despise learning and prefer to learn to kill people. You have a scattering of Wretched peasants scratching a living from a barren wasteland that they’re too stupid to turn a profit from. In places like Oldtown you have trade, industry, commerce and learning. Everything Ned Stark sneers at with open contempt when he reaches Kings Landing. That is the salvation of humanity from its own wretched ignorance. If the Starks got their way it would be an eternity of darkness and barbarism. There is nothing to admire in the romanticised Noble Savage nonsense that George tries to peddle with them. They’re pathetic and they should get what they deserve. 

Flipping a coin isn’t random in a story when you’re the writer. There’s no agency to that. 

They seem very touchy about their trees. So yeah I think they do have some religious connotations to owning the land in he North.

Yet no Starks are given ignominious ends? All these 8 foot supermen butchering their enemies and wading through a sea of blood with heads impaled on their shields. Again, I am not seeing the crazy Stark drinking a potion to turn into a Wolf. You’d never see a Stark beaten to a pulp or made to look a fool by Dunk. Again, there’s a distinct difference between how the Targaryens are depicted and the Starks. The latter is unquestionably depicting an image of strength and power. Ever triumphant, ever victorious and dignified in setback. Whereas with the Targaryens it’s frankly bringing out the freaks and the occasional decent warrior king. Gee, if Dany has such rotten eggs in the family then maybe she’s bad for Westeros. But those Starks are all powerful warriors Kings. Maybe Westeros needs those cold stoic hands at the wheel. That is what’s being insinuated.

Because ancient history has a funny way of being talked about by people angry at things in the real world. Why shouldn’t a Glover resent the Starks impositions and taxation demands. Why wouldn’t they romanticise when they used to rule themselves and yearn for some additional privileges. An imagined past would surely develop to validate such musings. George avoids this with the North because he wants them all to get along and kiss Stark boots.

Especially about that. He would never depict a Stark in the same situation as Stannis or Theon. He wants them to always have their dignity. Something he never allows for the other factions. They don’t even make particularly nasty jokes about them in text. Not even their enemies. If I can come up with nastier things to say about the North and Starks then somethings up.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

He is a Stark. He’s the most Stark of them all. 

He is either a bastard or a Targaryen, not a Stark.

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

You think it’s a little odd that half the Kingdom is so uninvolved with all the civil wars and proceedings? That provides a murky picture of the North and validates then by making them appear aloof from the petty wars of the South.

They are about as aloof as the Ironborn or the Dornishmen or the clansmen of the mountains. And it is not that there was much going on in the Vale or the West or the Reach during the Targaryen reign.

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

By count of POV. Numbers of chapters and placement within the story still favours the Starks. A large number of those POV also exist to serve the needs of the Stark POV stories.

Not really. Arya and Sansa and Bran don't even have proper stories of their own in the first 2-3 books. They just witness important things other people do, try to run away from things, or do absolutely nothing of substance (Bran).

[Tyrion1991]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He is either a bastard or a Targaryen, not a Stark.

They are about as aloof as the Ironborn or the Dornishmen or the clansmen of the mountains. And it is not that there was much going on in the Vale or the West or the Reach during the Targaryen reign.

Not really. Arya and Sansa and Bran don't even have proper stories of their own in the first 2-3 books. They just witness important things other people do, try to run away from things, or do absolutely nothing of substance (Bran).

 

He doesn’t have the hair, he doesn’t have the eyes and he’s bonded to a pet direwolf. He’s a dyed in the fool self pitying numpty. He’s been brought up by a bunch of barbarians and thinks their way of life is amazing. Which kind of bastard he is is irrelevant. Why should I care who popped him into some poor woman? Or am I supposed to change my perception of him because he’s got Kings Blood and oh that makes him the perfect King. He’s the Sword of the Morning! 

All those factions are still more involved in the politics of Westeros in Fire and Blood. The North barely features. I mean the World Of Ice and Fire doesn’t even provide a proper origin for House Mormont.

They have no agency but they’re still the main vehicle of telling the story and intended to make us root for their survival. All three are in that process of turning from wide eyed innocent to super saiyan.

 

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

12 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Por cerca de meio ano antes de Jon voltar. Ele vai causar o dano causado por Rob e culpá-lo pelos de Bolton / Frey. Esta é uma facada na narrativa de trás, na qual os Starks não reconhecerão seus próprios defeitos.

Ele foi literalmente esfaqueado nas costas. Mas que erros? Ele vai voltar e isso tem a desculpa perfeita para separar seus amigos das pessoas que não concordam com ele. Ele pode se juntar aos Wildlings e NW para conseguir o que quer. Isso significa que ele não precisa optar por usar a violência contra aqueles que se opõem a ele porque agiram primeiro. 

Não há meta-crítica de que os Starks tenham um lado sombrio. O autor faz com cuidado para que tudo o que eles façam tenha uma desculpa plausível para o porquê de fazerem isso e eles geralmente estejam reagindo a todos os homens maus unidimensionais. Além disso, como eles não possuem nenhum poder real, não estão enfrentando questões além da sobrevivência básica, enquanto Danys realmente governa um reino.

Para criticar os Starks, você precisa criticar a premissa do texto e sair do que está dizendo. Considerando que com Dany a crítica é totalmente aberta e óbvia. Mirri sendo o exemplo mais proeminente em seu primeiro livro. Você não vê esse tipo de crítica e crítica moral usada em um Stark.

[frenin]

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

It does matter that it’s the Wildlings pushing against a static wall and are the aggressor. In the real world the NW would be actively culling the Wildlings and advocating settlement beyond the wall similar to how Russia took Siberia. It’s not realistic to have only one side be attacking the status quo and most readers will side with the defensive party. Framing it in that light makes it one sided.

The NW is not interested in conquering, why would they?? It's horrible beyond the wall, so it makes perfect sense that they attack the south, especially if their culture enforce it. It's not realistic, it's how he write his world.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

They are a barbaric society.

A feudal one.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

A criminal syndicate whose only “virtue” is archaic notions of family and honour.

Again, feudalism

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

They have no towns or urban centres not gifted to them by more advanced people.

What do you think White Harbor is?? Besides being one of Westeros only cities i mean.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

They have no culture or formal religion.

False.

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

They despise learning and prefer to learn to kill people.

False again.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

You have a scattering of Wretched peasants scratching a living from a barren wasteland that they’re too stupid to turn a profit from. 

They are not too stupid to turn a profit from the land, the land as you have said is a barren wasteland and the fact that the winter means death for them does not help.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

In places like Oldtown you have trade, industry, commerce and learning.

What do they have in White Harbor?? Bootlegging??

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Everything Ned Stark sneers at with open contempt when he reaches Kings Landing.

I find that hard to believe, care to share a quote and we can see the context if there is a quote??

 

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

That is the salvation of humanity from its own wretched ignorance. If the Starks got their way it would be an eternity of darkness and barbarism. There is nothing to admire in the romanticised Noble Savage nonsense that George tries to peddle with them. They’re pathetic and they should get what they deserve. 

Wow,  what they deserve??

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Flipping a coin isn’t random in a story when you’re the writer. There’s no agency to that. 

Madness is, and since not a lot of people among the Targs are mad...

 

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

They seem very touchy about their trees. So yeah I think they do have some religious connotations to owning the land in he North.

I lost track here, what??

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Yet no Starks are given ignominious ends?

I'm pretty sure many have, you only have to talk to the Boltons and their histotical beef with the Starks.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

All these 8 foot supermen butchering their enemies and wading through a sea of blood with heads impaled on their shields.

Certainly not the Starks...

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Again, I am not seeing the crazy Stark drinking a potion to turn into a Wolf. You’d never see a Stark beaten to a pulp or made to look a fool by Dunk.

Neither an Arryn, for example.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Again, there’s a distinct difference between how the Targaryens are depicted and the Starks. The latter is unquestionably depicting an image of strength and power. Ever triumphant, ever victorious and dignified in setback.

Are they now?? I don't know how they managed to lose wars and the such, perhaps is your bias, i certainly dont see them that way.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Whereas with the Targaryens it’s frankly bringing out the freaks and the occasional decent warrior king. Gee, if Dany has such rotten eggs in the family then maybe she’s bad for Westeros. But those Starks are all powerful warriors Kings. Maybe Westeros needs those cold stoic hands at the wheel. That is what’s being insinuated.

No, it's not what it's being insinuated, the Targ history is far more relevant and important than the Stark, so we get to know their shit better, that's all.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Because ancient history has a funny way of being talked about by people angry at things in the real world.

Sometimes sure, but thanks god this is fiction.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

. Why shouldn’t a Glover resent the Starks impositions and taxation demands.

Why should they??

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Why wouldn’t they romanticise when they used to rule themselves and yearn for some additional privileges.

In a time where not even the writing was brought to Westeros?? 

 

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

An imagined past would surely develop to validate such musings. George avoids this with the North because he wants them all to get along and kiss Stark boots.

He avoids this with every kingdom.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Especially about that. He would never depict a Stark in the same situation as Stannis or Theon.

What situation??

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:28 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Something he never allows for the other factions. They don’t even make particularly nasty jokes about them in text. Not even their enemies. If I can come up with nastier things to say about the North and Starks then somethings up.

This again?? You're going backwards. I hope you don't start again with the wolf and its symbology...

[Tyrion1991]

11 hours ago, frenin said:

The NW is not interested in conquering, why would they?? It's horrible beyond the wall, so it makes perfect sense that they attack the south, especially if their culture enforce it. It's not realistic, it's how he write his world.

 

A feudal one.

 

Again, feudalism

 

What do you think White Harbor is?? Besides being one of Westeros only cities i mean.

 

False.

False again.

 

They are not too stupid to turn a profit from the land, the land as you have said is a barren wasteland and the fact that the winter means death for them does not help.

 

What do they have in White Harbor?? Bootlegging??

 

I find that hard to believe, care to share a quote and we can see the context if there is a quote??

 

 

Wow,  what they deserve??

 

Madness is, and since not a lot of people among the Targs are mad...

 

 

I lost track here, what??

 

I'm pretty sure many have, you only have to talk to the Boltons and their histotical beef with the Starks.

 

Certainly not the Starks...

 

Neither an Arryn, for example.

 

Are they now?? I don't know how they managed to lose wars and the such, perhaps is your bias, i certainly dont see them that way.

 

No, it's not what it's being insinuated, the Targ history is far more relevant and important than the Stark, so we get to know their shit better, that's all.

 

Sometimes sure, but thanks god this is fiction.

 

Why should they??

 

In a time where not even the writing was brought to Westeros?? 

 

 

He avoids this with every kingdom.

 

What situation??

 

This again?? You're going backwards. I hope you don't start again with the wolf and its symbology...

 

Because that's the rational way of resolving the border problem. Because people are greedy and love violence. You're assuming that a holy order standing sentinel upon the walls and taking not one retaliatory attack on the Wildlings is normal. Its not, this is a sanitised situation to make the NW out to be an innocent party and by extension validate Jon Snow. Lord forbid he presented with difficult problems and conflict.

White Harbour is an Andal city. So the Southerners imported their way of doing business and attitude to commerce. Yet its become the biggest city in the North despite the Northerners living in the region for millennia. This is because the North is a barbaric culture that despises trade, learning and commerce. 

Okay, you want quotes proving that Ned Stark despises the corruption of urban society because hes a provincial barbarian from a backwater society:

Eddard GoT P185 - 

"The chamber was richly furnished. Myrish carpets covered the floor instead of rushes, and in one corner a hundred fabulous beasts cavorted in bright paints on a carved screen from the Summer Isles. The walls hung with tapestries from Norvos and Qohor and Lys, and a pair of Valyrian Syphinx's flanked the door, eyes of polished garnet smouldering in black marble faces. The councillor Ned liked least....his hand left powdered stains on ned's sleeve, and he smelled as foul and as sweet as flowers on a grave."

This is a classical anti luxury argument. Ned is making an argument similar to Ancient Roman moralists complaining about the decadence and effeminate corruption of Eastern culture on their pure martial society. Ned is looking across all these rich artefacts and sees them as signs of the corruption at the court. Note that he contrasts the floor to the rushes you would expect on Winterfell. Clearly equating that Spartan way of life to Northern virtue. This leads directly into commentary on Varys and this association in Neds mind between the finer things and corruption becomes even more apparent equating sweetness to rot. 

So rather than see this wealth as a sign of progress he sees this an inherent negative. It never occurs to him that these are likely exotic gifts presented to a King by foreign dignitaries and a sign of how far the southern trade routes extend; comparable to the Renaissance. Perhaps because Robert is very interested in the wider world and what it has to offer him. Ned is immediately using this to validate his own belief in Northern cultural supremacy. This is essentially racism. 

Ned is simply not as blunt as Balon Greyjoy in his opinions about wealth/trade and the Northerners less dramatic in their rejection of it. 

 

Eddard GoT P269

"The Jon Arryn that Ned Stark had known was not one to wear jewelled and silvered plate. Steel was steel: it was meant for protection, not ornament. He might have changed his views to be sure. He would scarcely be the first man who came to look on things differently after a few years at court."

Again, Ned is equating the wealth of the court with a kind of moral corruption. Obviously a pragmatic and rational Northerner would see things in utilitarian terms. Yet the opulence and wealth of urban and modern society would erode these morals and lead to a rot of the spirit. Ned thinks that somebody exposed to this will become vain and shallow. He doesn't have the modern perspective that getting wealth is an inherently good thing.

Eddard GoT P265

Theres also a point where the councillors make the point that this expensive tourney will encourage trade and commerce in the city.

"The realm prospers from such events, my Lord."Grand Maester Pycelle said. "They bring the great the chance of glory, and the lowly respite from their woes. And put coins in many a pocket. Littlefinger added. "Every inn in the city is full, and the whores are walking bowlegged and jingling with each step"

By bringing all of these Nobles and their retainers into the city this social circuit allows the inns, taverns brothels and other businesses to flourish. Ned in the same chapter goes to the Street of Steel. How would all of those armourers have any work and be able to feed their families without the trade inherent from those vain Knights wanting to spend all their money? An entire quarter of the city is dedicated to this. A whole pre modern industry working in processing metals and trading it for coin. If everyone had the Northern mentality of only keeping the bare minimum of unornamental plate and mail (probably servicing it themselves) then you have less need for advanced metal working practices, trained armourers and those economies of scale. Which means less jobs and less trade. 

So Ned is told this tourney increases trade and commerce, sees literal evidence of this a few pages later and yet continues to prattle on how he hates the whole thing. His only real comment on this is "I've heard enough about whores for one day.". Its a staggering level of ignorance for a man in charge of half the country. He never clocks this because hes a moron from a backwater culture. Like how much would the crown be making in tax revenue and fees from all of this extra trade and commerce generated by the tourney and the presence of the royal court. Revenue it probably needs to finance those debts. It doesn't matter if the crowns in debt as long as its able to meet its obligations. Since the Kingdom isn't bankrupt and able to continue lending that seems to be the case before the Starks throw the country into war and devastate the economy. 

 

Again its this attitude. This is a deeply anti-capitalist and anti modern mentality. Ned, as a Northerner, simply doesn't understand how this commercial urban society works. He's being confronted with Renaissance Italy and turning away in dismissive disgust and outrage. That is a rejection of modernity. When you consider that their preference is living in the Dark Ages that's not a valid position. The South has clearly achieved a level of development on par with 15th century Europe. The North is still an Anglo Saxon Kingdom from the early Middle Ages; if that. 

 

They deserve to lose. Why should I want to see such a society triumph and impose its will upon one that's more likely to escape feudalism and enter the modern world? There is nothing to admire in this stagnant culture and society. 

 

[frenin]

On 4/25/2020 at 11:18 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

Because that's the rational way of resolving the border problem. Because people are greedy and love violence. You're assuming that a holy order standing sentinel upon the walls and taking not one retaliatory attack on the Wildlings is normal. Its not, this is a sanitised situation to make the NW out to be an innocent party and by extension validate Jon Snow. Lord forbid he presented with difficult problems and conflict.

I don't know why when you want to say brutal you say rational. But no, a holy order that refuses to have lands and the such would not seek to conquer more wasteland. Are you saying that Jon is does not face conflicts and problems??

 

 

On 4/25/2020 at 11:18 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

White Harbour is an Andal city. So the Southerners imported their way of doing business and attitude to commerce. Yet its become the biggest city in the North despite the Northerners living in the region for millennia. This is because the North is a barbaric culture that despises trade, learning and commerce. 

Just as Gulltown, Lannisport and Oldtown are First Men cities... No, we're told why the White Knife didn't flourish and it was because it was a source of constant headaches for the Starks and that did not stop until the Manderlys.

 

 

On 4/25/2020 at 11:18 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

"The chamber was richly furnished. Myrish carpets covered the floor instead of rushes, and in one corner a hundred fabulous beasts cavorted in bright paints on a carved screen from the Summer Isles. The walls hung with tapestries from Norvos and Qohor and Lys, and a pair of Valyrian Syphinx's flanked the door, eyes of polished garnet smouldering in black marble faces. The councillor Ned liked least....his hand left powdered stains on ned's sleeve, and he smelled as foul and as sweet as flowers on a grave."

This is a classical anti luxury argument. Ned is making an argument similar to Ancient Roman moralists complaining about the decadence and effeminate corruption of Eastern culture on their pure martial society. Ned is looking across all these rich artefacts and sees them as signs of the corruption at the court. Note that he contrasts the floor to the rushes you would expect on Winterfell. Clearly equating that Spartan way of life to Northern virtue. This leads directly into commentary on Varys and this association in Neds mind between the finer things and corruption becomes even more apparent equating sweetness to rot. 

So rather than see this wealth as a sign of progress he sees this an inherent negative. It never occurs to him that these are likely exotic gifts presented to a King by foreign dignitaries and a sign of how far the southern trade routes extend; comparable to the Renaissance. Perhaps because Robert is very interested in the wider world and what it has to offer him. Ned is immediately using this to validate his own belief in Northern cultural supremacy. This is essentially racism. 

I tell you that i was with you until you say racism.

 

 

On 4/25/2020 at 11:18 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

"The Jon Arryn that Ned Stark had known was not one to wear jewelled and silvered plate. Steel was steel: it was meant for protection, not ornament. He might have changed his views to be sure. He would scarcely be the first man who came to look on things differently after a few years at court."

Again, Ned is equating the wealth of the court with a kind of moral corruption. Obviously a pragmatic and rational Northerner would see things in utilitarian terms. Yet the opulence and wealth of urban and modern society would erode these morals and lead to a rot of the spirit. Ned thinks that somebody exposed to this will become vain and shallow. He doesn't have the modern perspective that getting wealth is an inherently good thing.

Jon Arryn was walthy before he became Hand, he is equating become more invested with jewelry with negative traits.

 

 

On 4/25/2020 at 11:18 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

Theres also a point where the councillors make the point that this expensive tourney will encourage trade and commerce in the city.

"The realm prospers from such events, my Lord."Grand Maester Pycelle said. "They bring the great the chance of glory, and the lowly respite from their woes. And put coins in many a pocket. Littlefinger added. "Every inn in the city is full, and the whores are walking bowlegged and jingling with each step"

By bringing all of these Nobles and their retainers into the city this social circuit allows the inns, taverns brothels and other businesses to flourish. Ned in the same chapter goes to the Street of Steel. How would all of those armourers have any work and be able to feed their families without the trade inherent from those vain Knights wanting to spend all their money? An entire quarter of the city is dedicated to this. A whole pre modern industry working in processing metals and trading it for coin. If everyone had the Northern mentality of only keeping the bare minimum of unornamental plate and mail (probably servicing it themselves) then you have less need for advanced metal working practices, trained armourers and those economies of scale. Which means less jobs and less trade. 

So Ned is told this tourney increases trade and commerce, sees literal evidence of this a few pages later and yet continues to prattle on how he hates the whole thing. His only real comment on this is "I've heard enough about whores for one day.". Its a staggering level of ignorance for a man in charge of half the country. He never clocks this because hes a moron from a backwater culture. Like how much would the crown be making in tax revenue and fees from all of this extra trade and commerce generated by the tourney and the presence of the royal court. Revenue it probably needs to finance those debts. It doesn't matter if the crowns in debt as long as its able to meet its obligations. Since the Kingdom isn't bankrupt and able to continue lending that seems to be the case before the Starks throw the country into war and devastate the economy. 

Ned is arguing that the Crown is simply too broke to host a touney as big and he is right.

 

On 4/25/2020 at 11:18 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

Again its this attitude. This is a deeply anti-capitalist and anti modern mentality. Ned, as a Northerner, simply doesn't understand how this commercial urban society works. He's being confronted with Renaissance Italy and turning away in dismissive disgust and outrage. That is a rejection of modernity. When you consider that their preference is living in the Dark Ages that's not a valid position. The South has clearly achieved a level of development on par with 15th century Europe. The North is still an Anglo Saxon Kingdom from the early Middle Ages; if that. 

Again, i wonder why the barbarians didn't burn White Harbor.

 

 

 

[Tyrion1991]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

I don't know why when you want to say brutal you say rational. But no, a holy order that refuses to have lands and the such would not seek to conquer more wasteland. Are you saying that Jon is does not face conflicts and problems??

 

 

Just as Gulltown, Lannisport and Oldtown are First Men cities... No, we're told why the White Knife didn't flourish and it was because it was a source of constant headaches for the Starks and that did not stop until the Manderlys.

 

 

I tell you that i was with you until you say racism.

 

 

Jon Arryn was walthy before he became Hand, he is equating become more invested with jewelry with negative traits.

 

 

Ned is arguing that the Crown is simply too broke to host a touney as big and he is right.

 

Again, i wonder why the barbarians didn't burn White Harbor.

 

 

 

 

In Siberia and Alaska the Russians made a killing out of the fur trade. There is no reason these lands can’t be exploited on similar lines. Except that they don’t because that would be colonialism and would turn the reader against the NW and Jon Snow. Framing the Wildlings as the aggressor which puts them at a moral disadvantage in the readers mind.

He doesn’t. He’s a boring and terrible character. The conflicts he faces are trite and morally one sided. Hes given ways out of what few “difficult” scenarios he’s in and he relies entirely on being Ned Starks son. Yet he wines about being an outcast. Curse me for being a raven haired nobles son of such proud lineage. Woe is me! He hasn’t achieved anything of note and yet every character talks about him like he’s the Sword of the Morning.

Ethnically they might be FM cities but they’ve abandoned what the North sees as its own pure national culture. Indeed there’s few expression of kinship and they have little in common. This is because the South has a more developed society, trade and essentially is in the early renaissance. Whereas the North is wilfully in the Dark Ages and think that makes them better than everyone else. Readers like them because they are depicted as these cool Noble Savage warrior culture that hasn’t been corrupted by decadent southern culture.

It is racism. If you come into another society and start casting moral accusations against its material culture that is a form of racism. Say, you’re a Puritan from New England in the 17th century you would say that the Indians clothing and habits like drinking reflected their sinful nature. Which we would understand as racism. The same is true of 19th century Imperial Western views of oriental societies as decadent, effeminate and their wealth being a signifier of corruption and weakness. 

Which is the result of Neds anti capitalist and anti modern sentiments. He is being a Puritan. Equating material wealth with sin. That’s ridiculous. The same notion historically was used to justify banning the “lower orders” from wearing fine clothing as it was not fit for their station. 

His points against it are ignorant. The capitals economy operates by the court and its patronage. It probably pays for itself several times over in taxes and additional revenue from all the business it generates. He literally sees an entire quarter of the city dedicated to making armour for tournaments like this. Never mind all the inns and the taverns. 18th century London and many other capitals did have a insubstantial part of their economy based around this. His view is that they shouldn’t be issuing prizes because they don’t have the physical money in a bank. But it’s like saying the people who run the lottery are making a loss. The Crown probably takes far more from all the losing knights than it ever costs to organise. Plus it’s vital for Robert to legitimise his rule and for the King to put on a show for the masses. He isn’t making a cost benefit analysis and is frankly just opposed to the idea of money lending at all. This is not an informed and rational position for Ned to be taking. It’s a moral prejudice born out of his Northern culture. He would rather see half the economy of Kings Landing collapse just so he could stash away money in a cellar. That won’t help anybody and it would lead to economic stagnation. Which is why the  North has stayed in the Dark Ages for millennia and has contributed nothing to humanity.

He’s not interested in spending money to make money or developing it. He doesn’t say, “oh but we could invest this in a trading company instead” of “oh maybe the city sewage system needs looked at” and “maybe roads need repaired to help goods move”. That’s a more reasonable discussion rather than “bleh, spend money bad. Bleh!”

Because they can make money off it by taxing something they don’t really understand. Frankly, yes, there should be grass roots hatred of the Andal interlopers and their “evil” money lending ways which are reducing honest Northern farmers to poverty. That would be realistic and have historical precedent. George avoids going there despite that being a major part of the Middle Ages. The Northerners making pogroms would make any moralising on Jon keeping to his vows pretty shallow.

There is constant equating of poverty to virtue and wealth to corruption throughout Neds chapters. You can’t say that’s it’s evil to want self improvement and to better oneself. 

Never mind the fact that this man has no right to claim any moral high ground since he’s keeping several million of his own people in a brutal form of near slavery in feudalism. Who the hell does he think he is? Yet, oh god no Roberts using gold lace! He’s a bad man! But Ned Starks a modest man of mild manners who doesn’t have those pretensions. He dresses in plain leather and furs. So it’s okay for him to be a gangster whose family would hang draw and quarter any peasant who didn’t pay their tithe or labour.

Why is it more honourable that he stash his money away in a vault than spend it in a way that would generate the economy for his subjects. He is a parasite, he just doesn’t dress like one and actually gives far less back to society by generating economic activity. Why should I hold it against Renly for liking the finer things but consider it to be positive that Ned shuns such things? The text insistently does this. The entire North is used to peddle this moral judgment against luxury that George has.

 

[The Young Maester]

16 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Which is the result of Neds anti capitalist and anti modern sentiments.

Capitalism isnt a thing in Westeros. Research what capitalism is and you’ll see why such an industrial based economy dosent exist in Westeros. 

16 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

This is because the South has a more developed society, trade and essentially is in the early renaissance.

Early reinassance? Why do you think that. Where’s the evidence of westerosi people practising the things our renaissance era ancestors did? Where’s the printing press, the gunpowder. 
One of the key factors of the reinnasance era is that it gave citizens a more broad conscience. And from what I can see the peasants are still stupid. 
The only technological advancement in Westeros is medicine. Medicine seems to be even more advanced than the Renaissance era. Not even the economy of Westeros is even close to being in the renaissance era. Commerce was a major thing during the 12th century. And Westeros lacks too many towns and cities in order to be even close to the renaissance era. 

17 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

“oh but we could invest this in a trading company instead”

I want to see evidence in which trade companies exist in this world. Why would a 17th century thing even be on martins world. 

[Angel Eyes]

56 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

 

The only technological advancement in Westeros is medicine. Medicine seems to be even more advanced than the Renaissance era. Not even the economy of Westeros is even close to being in the renaissance era. Commerce was a major thing during the 12th century. And Westeros lacks too many towns and cities in order to be even close to the renaissance era. 

 

Not to mention that kids born of incest have a higher survival rate.

[Tyrion1991]

10 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Capitalism isnt a thing in Westeros. Research what capitalism is and you’ll see why such an industrial based economy dosent exist in Westeros. 

Early reinassance? Why do you think that. Where’s the evidence of westerosi people practising the things our renaissance era ancestors did? Where’s the printing press, the gunpowder. 
One of the key factors of the reinnasance era is that it gave citizens a more broad conscience. And from what I can see the peasants are still stupid. 
The only technological advancement in Westeros is medicine. Medicine seems to be even more advanced than the Renaissance era. Not even the economy of Westeros is even close to being in the renaissance era. Commerce was a major thing during the 12th century. And Westeros lacks too many towns and cities in order to be even close to the renaissance era. 

I want to see evidence in which trade companies exist in this world. Why would a 17th century thing even be on martins world. 

 

Trading of goods then. The common understanding and usage of the word. 

Significant urban centres, small scale craft/cottage industry, global trade in exotic goods. Similar to Italy in the time of the Renaissance. 

Which would still be better than the North which is the entire premise of the argument. 

Okay, that’s me pointing out that Neds opposition to the wealth at court is based on his Puritan Northern mentality; not some kind of rational cost benefit of what’s going on. So I made a list of practical things a councillor could suggest to spend money to make money. It’s a fantasy and George is very loose with which eras he is drawing inspiration from. Whether one example is from that century or that century doesn’t matter. 

Why do you like the North?

 

 

[apovsic]

If you ever wonder how it is to run a marathon on a treademill, just read this thread.

It has a lot of words put in but it doesn't move anywhere.

[Tyrion1991]

1 hour ago, apovsic said:

If you ever wonder how it is to run a marathon on a treademill, just read this thread.

It has a lot of words put in but it doesn't move anywhere.

 

Of course not. I’ve made up my mind. Some guy made a thread calling me out for putting anti Stark/North comments in threads. 

Well if you’re stuck in a hamster cage you may as well use the wheel. 

[The Young Maester]

13 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Trading of goods then. The common understanding and usage of the word. 

Significant urban centres, small scale craft/cottage industry, global trade in exotic goods. Similar to Italy in the time of the Renaissance. 

Which would still be better than the North which is the entire premise of the argument. 

Okay, that’s me pointing out that Neds opposition to the wealth at court is based on his Puritan Northern mentality; not some kind of rational cost benefit of what’s going on. So I made a list of practical things a councillor could suggest to spend money to make money. It’s a fantasy and George is very loose with which eras he is drawing inspiration from. Whether one example is from that century or that century doesn’t matter. 

Why do you like the North?

 

 

The economy of Westeros is driven mainly by agriculture. Thats why no on bothers with trade that much. Trade comes in naturally as it always has. Only things a king or lord can affect on trade is the tariffs he imposes on his city, and the embargo’s or restrictions they impose on other regions. Ned dosent need to seek more trade influence as kings landing is already one of the most important trading hubs in planetos. The goods come by themselves. Only difference they can make is if they find a good they like and they’d pursue it by asking the neighbouring kingdom or free city to trade such goods with them. But that’s it, a king or lord will never have that much sway over merchants and where they go. 

Honestly all Ned has to do to make money is stop Robert from touching the treasury. Westeros is a booming economy, you have an entire continent ruled from kings landing, whilst kings landing is the center of this continent. Everything from wealth to lords and goods will go straight to kings landing. Kings landing could easily become wealthier than the Lannisters or tryrells. 

13 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It’s a fantasy and George is very loose with which eras he is drawing inspiration from. Whether one example is from that century or that century doesn’t matter. 

Oh no George was very clear on which era this fantasy was inspired from. And thats the war of the roses. With many other events being inspired from the Middle Ages.

To me it seems that Ned dosent want to spend money because they haven’t got any. It’s pretty clear, if I was on overdraft and I need to buy an apple I wouldn’t extend my overdraft because of that, instead I’d work and wait till next pay day. Why put yourself in more debt when you can instead try to pay off the debt. 

13 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Why do you like the North?

You are mistaken, I like all kingdoms I just dont like when people bring up silly and misleading arguments and decide to make it fact without any clear evidence.

[frenin]

On 4/28/2020 at 10:02 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

In Siberia and Alaska the Russians made a killing out of the fur trade. There is no reason these lands can’t be exploited on similar lines. Except that they don’t because that would be colonialism and would turn the reader against the NW and Jon Snow. Framing the Wildlings as the aggressor which puts them at a moral disadvantage in the readers mind.

Lucky the Watch and the North don't need the trade that badly to slaughter them all, nor they want the lands beyond the wall. I doubt that the free folk are in a moral dissadvantage in the readers mind, most of them fairly like them and despise the Watch.

 

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:02 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

He doesn’t. He’s a boring and terrible character. The conflicts he faces are trite and morally one sided. Hes given ways out of what few “difficult” scenarios he’s in and he relies entirely on being Ned Starks son. Yet he wines about being an outcast. Curse me for being a raven haired nobles son of such proud lineage. Woe is me! He hasn’t achieved anything of note and yet every character talks about him like he’s the Sword of the Morning.

He really isn't and i'm very indifferent to him but this is not about Jon anyway.

 

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:02 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Ethnically they might be FM cities but they’ve abandoned what the North sees as its own pure national culture. Indeed there’s few expression of kinship and they have little in common. This is because the South has a more developed society, trade and essentially is in the early renaissance. Whereas the North is wilfully in the Dark Ages and think that makes them better than everyone else. Readers like them because they are depicted as these cool Noble Savage warrior culture that hasn’t been corrupted by decadent southern culture.

When?? Gulltown, Oldtown and Lannisport had the same tradition and culture the northern had, what they didn't have was a abarren land and a very fucked up climate, again if the North despised that, White Harbor would have never risen, since ofc the Starks would turned anything that wasn't the Dark Ages in their north.

 

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:02 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

It is racism. If you come into another society and start casting moral accusations against its material culture that is a form of racism. Say, you’re a Puritan from New England in the 17th century you would say that the Indians clothing and habits like drinking reflected their sinful nature. Which we would understand as racism. The same is true of 19th century Imperial Western views of oriental societies as decadent, effeminate and their wealth being a signifier of corruption and weakness. 

Except that it's not another society, they are all Westerosi.

 

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:02 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Which is the result of Neds anti capitalist and anti modern sentiments. He is being a Puritan. Equating material wealth with sin. That’s ridiculous. The same notion historically was used to justify banning the “lower orders” from wearing fine clothing as it was not fit for their station. 

he views ostensity as vanity, especially if it's displayed by people who didn't do it before, he has no problem with wealth but how it's used.

 

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:02 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

His points against it are ignorant. The capitals economy operates by the court and its patronage. It probably pays for itself several times over in taxes and additional revenue from all the business it generates. He literally sees an entire quarter of the city dedicated to making armour for tournaments like this. Never mind all the inns and the taverns. 18th century London and many other capitals did have a insubstantial part of their economy based around this. His view is that they shouldn’t be issuing prizes because they don’t have the physical money in a bank. But it’s like saying the people who run the lottery are making a loss. The Crown probably takes far more from all the losing knights than it ever costs to organise. Plus it’s vital for Robert to legitimise his rule and for the King to put on a show for the masses. He isn’t making a cost benefit analysis and is frankly just opposed to the idea of money lending at all. This is not an informed and rational position for Ned to be taking. It’s a moral prejudice born out of his Northern culture. He would rather see half the economy of Kings Landing collapse just so he could stash away money in a cellar. That won’t help anybody and it would lead to economic stagnation. Which is why the  North has stayed in the Dark Ages for millennia and has contributed nothing to humanity.

And Robert could do all that without exaggerated prizes don't you think??  The very prizes Robert is setting makes it doubtful that  he would get much income for it.

 

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:02 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

He’s not interested in spending money to make money or developing it. He doesn’t say, “oh but we could invest this in a trading company instead” of “oh maybe the city sewage system needs looked at” and “maybe roads need repaired to help goods move”. That’s a more reasonable discussion rather than “bleh, spend money bad. Bleh!”

No, it's more like wasting money is bad, especially when you're broke.

 

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:02 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Because they can make money off it by taxing something they don’t really understand. Frankly, yes, there should be grass roots hatred of the Andal interlopers and their “evil” money lending ways which are reducing honest Northern farmers to poverty. That would be realistic and have historical precedent. George avoids going there despite that being a major part of the Middle Ages. The Northerners making pogroms would make any moralising on Jon keeping to his vows pretty shallow.

So you want to have your cake and eat it?? They hate it or not. 

Why are the farmers poor?? It's not like they are being paid.

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:02 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

There is constant equating of poverty to virtue and wealth to corruption throughout Neds chapters. You can’t say that’s it’s evil to want self improvement and to better oneself. 

Ned has little to no problem with wealth, but with ostensity, which he associates with vanity and mind you, it's comonly associated with vanity.

 

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:02 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Never mind the fact that this man has no right to claim any moral high ground since he’s keeping several million of his own people in a brutal form of near slavery in feudalism. Who the hell does he think he is? Yet, oh god no Roberts using gold lace! He’s a bad man! But Ned Starks a modest man of mild manners who doesn’t have those pretensions. He dresses in plain leather and furs. So it’s okay for him to be a gangster whose family would hang draw and quarter any peasant who didn’t pay their tithe or labour.

This again?? That's the world he lives in.

 

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:02 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Why is it more honourable that he stash his money away in a vault than spend it in a way that would generate the economy for his subjects. He is a parasite, he just doesn’t dress like one and actually gives far less back to society by generating economic activity. Why should I hold it against Renly for liking the finer things but consider it to be positive that Ned shuns such things? The text insistently does this. The entire North is used to peddle this moral judgment against luxury that George has.

You should considerate how you see it imo.

Since the problem was not the tourney but the prizes of a touney when the crown was broke i find your question absurd.