US Politics: The Killing Hoax

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

What is a consensus candidate and how is that chosen? You're talking about removing the candidate that people voted for and replacing him with one they didn't vote for. Sounds a lot like how the process used to work with the smoky back rooms.

I don't know.

But, I think Democrats better start figuring that out, just in case there are any other potential issues waiting to be sprung.

ETA: Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are, or that I believe Reade. But the hypocrisy of the Democratic party on this issue is blatant and stunning and every bit as bad as Republican hypocrisy, and I think that some Democrats are already making the mistake of viewing Biden's victory as a foregone conclusion.

Making the determination that the only way to beat Republicans is to become like them is a Pyrrhic victory in my estimation.

[Martell Spy]

6 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I don't know.

But, I think Democrats better start figuring that out, just in case there are any other potential issues waiting to be sprung.

ETA: Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are, or that I believe Reade. But the hypocrisy of the Democratic party on this issue is blatant and stunning and every bit as bad as Republican hypocrisy, and I think that some Democrats are already making the mistake of viewing Biden's victory as a foregone conclusion.

Making the determination that the only way to beat Republicans is to become like them is a Pyrrhic victory in my estimation.

Well, let's say you do force Biden out. I'm sure that part could be done, with important party members leaning heavily on him he would probably back out. That leaves you with Sanders getting the nomination. You'd have to get him to agree to back out as well, which seem unlikely. 

[Kalbear]

3 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I mean, for fuck's sake, this isn't exactly news.

Democrats jettisoned their POC constituents in the 90s to tack to the right with tough-on-crime policies that were squarely aimed at the people they were claiming to champion.

Now, who are Democrats courting? Affluent, white, suburban voters. Do you think racial policies are their top political concern? 

Who's naive now?

Not really. Those poc politicians also backed these things, largely. They weren't just conservative talking points that clinton adopted. They were favored across the board at the time. That's how it works - the same policy at a different time can have widely different backing. 

And that's also the difference between Franken and biden. If the allegations against Franken came out now, he probably would face some issues but not be drummed out, at least not without some investigation. But right then it was at the absolute apex of the power of the metoo movement. 

Also, to my knowledge there is no picture of Biden fondling reade while she's asleep, so the idea that it is comparably bad is a bit much. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Not really. Those poc politicians also backed these things, largely. They weren't just conservative talking points that clinton adopted. They were favored across the board at the time. That's how it works - the same policy at a different time can have widely different backing. 

And that's also the difference between Franken and biden. If the allegations against Franken came out now, he probably would face some issues but not be drummed out, at least not without some investigation. But right then it was at the absolute apex of the power of the metoo movement. 

Also, to my knowledge there is no picture of Biden fondling reade while she's asleep, so the idea that it is comparably bad is a bit much. 

Oh, as opposed to the literal hundreds of photos of Biden touching women in weird or inappropriate ways that get passed around as joke memes?

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Because asking where the Democratic party is willing to draw the line, or if it's willing to draw a line at all, is a question worth asking, and the longer that can gets kicked down the road, the worse off we will all be.

I just find this to be a fundamental misconception of parties in our system.  Perhaps it's just base utilitarianism, but the optimal outcome - at least from the current information available - is for Biden to weather this.  Because, as shitty as it is, it is very likely this isn't going to matter much to most of the general electorate.  Would it be great if it did matter to a bunch of the general electorate - and then it'd be practical to sack Biden?  Sure, I guess, if the allegations are true.  But if that was reality in this country then the Republican party as currently constituted would never ever win an election again.  We don't live in that world.  So how about we compete in the world we do live in?  There are lines to be drawn.  Drawing one here would be needlessly self-defeating at a pretty damn crucial time.

I also don't see how this has anything to do with climate change or "preserving the status quo."  That's your own projection.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

The rumour that keeps popping up is that Kim Jong-un is dead. I also saw a story a day or two ago that a team of doctors had flown in from China to see if they could help him.

Dark wings, dark words.

[Kalbear]

10 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Oh, as opposed to the literal hundreds of photos of Biden touching women in weird or inappropriate ways that get passed around as joke memes?

Yes, as opposed to that. Him touching their shoulders is not equivalent to honking a boob while they're asleep. 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, DMC said:

I just find this to be a fundamental misconception of parties in our system.  Perhaps it's just base utilitarianism, but the optimal outcome - at least from the current information available - is for Biden to weather this.  Because, as shitty as it is, it is very likely this isn't going to matter much to most of the general electorate.  Would it be great if it did matter to a bunch of the general electorate - and then it'd be practical to sack Biden?  Sure, I guess, if the allegations are true.  But if that was reality in this country then the Republican party as currently constituted would never ever win an election again.  We don't live in that world.  So how about we compete in the world we do live in?  There are lines to be drawn.  Drawing one here would be needlessly self-defeating at a pretty damn crucial time.

I also don't see how this has anything to do with climate change or "preserving the status quo."  That's your own projection.

So it was just my imagination that people in this thread were talking about Biden winning on a "return to normalcy" campaign?

"Normal" is great if you're a white suburbanite. Sucks for a lot of other people though.

[Kalbear]

And here's the thing about the supposed pyrrhic victory - that has literally been the argument against minorities and women and anyone progressive getting anything at all. If it isnt the perfect snowflake candidate, sorry. 

But the reality is that basically everyone other than white men have been making that choice and doing it gladly, because getting better things is better than getting it worse. In this case Biden + a female VP with specific pledges to improve womens rights and give women more benefits is FAR better than some as yet unnamed candidate, and far better than Sanders. Same goes for minority rights, LGBTQ rights, poor rights, etc.  It isnt a pyrrhic victory if he wins - it's a victory. Just like LBJ being an asshat racist was a victory because he is still a transactional politician on your side. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yes, as opposed to that. Him touching their shoulders is not equivalent to honking a boob while they're asleep. 

Did Joe Biden say he can sexually assault any woman he wants because he's a star?

Okay we're done here.....

[Centrist Simon Steele]

26 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Not really. Those poc politicians also backed these things, largely. They weren't just conservative talking points that clinton adopted. They were favored across the board at the time. That's how it works - the same policy at a different time can have widely different backing. 

And that's also the difference between Franken and biden. If the allegations against Franken came out now, he probably would face some issues but not be drummed out, at least not without some investigation. But right then it was at the absolute apex of the power of the metoo movement. 

Also, to my knowledge there is no picture of Biden fondling reade while she's asleep, so the idea that it is comparably bad is a bit much. 

He does tend to only fondle women while they're awake.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

So it was just my imagination that people in this thread were talking about Biden winning on a "return to normalcy" campaign?

"Normal" is great if you're a white suburbanite. Sucks for a lot of other people though.

Biden's platform is far more progressive than Obama's was in 08 or 12.  That type of return normalcy may not be a revolution, but a revolution will lose right now.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

He does tend to only fondle women while they're awake.

Your moral superiority does nothing to keep my son alive. 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yes, as opposed to that. Him touching their shoulders is not equivalent to honking a boob while they're asleep. 

Well, Franken didn't have charges filed against him for digitally penetrating a woman without consent, so...how deep do you want to keep digging that hole?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Your moral superiority does nothing to keep my son alive. 

You do realize that a lot of us "moral superiority" types have skin in that game too, right?

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

Biden's platform is far more progressive than Obama's was in 08 or 12.  That type of return normalcy may not be a revolution, but a revolution will lose right now.

Maybe. I sincerely hope you're right.

Even if Democrats win this election they'll only be doing what Obama had to do after winning in '08, except the job will be even more difficult, and Republicans opposition more intransigent. That sounds like more of the same to me.

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Even if Democrats win this election they'll only be doing what Obama had to do after winning in '08, except the job will be even more difficult, and Republicans opposition more intransigent. That sounds like more of the same to me.

And the Biden allegations have a relationship to this reality how?  Sounds like you've devolved into bemoaning the state of the electoral environment more than anything related to the topic.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

23 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Your moral superiority does nothing to keep my son alive. 

Such a terrible attempt to win an argument.

[Kalbear]

16 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Well, Franken didn't have charges filed against him for digitally penetrating a woman without consent, so...how deep do you want to keep digging that hole?

Until the evidence shows things one way or another. That's sort of the point. Franken had solid evidence that he didnt dispute. So far that isnt the case with Biden. It well could be! I've said from the beginning that it is likely accurate. 

But politically, at least so far, it isnt remotely as damaging. You may wish that it was. So do I. But it isnt. 

18 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

You do realize that a lot of us "moral superiority" types have skin in that game too, right?

I don't really care. Simon certainly doesnt act like it, and it is an absolute fact that if you're concerned about womens rights biden is absurdly better. If women start deserting Biden in droves I'll be right with them, but right now women support Biden more than they did clinton, and far more than trump. Instead of speaking for them I'll go with listening to them. 

Especially when the choice is someone who is attempting to take my sons healthcare away permanently and someone who has lost a son to cancer. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

And the Biden allegations have a relationship to this reality how?  Sounds like you've devolved into bemoaning the state of the electoral environment more than anything related to the topic.

Because it seems like Biden and the Democrats are selling out the Me Too movement, as several people involved with the Me Too movement have already alleged?

Biden and the Democratic party seem not only to not want to seriously address these allegations, but to actively ignore them, and that makes me even more concerned than I already was that all the nice-sounding overtures of late made towards progressives are nothing more than empty words considering how the party's reaction to these allegations have played out.

Look, I seriously hope you're right. But the Democratic party hasn't exactly had a solid foundation when it comes to championing progressive causes for a while now, and I don't see how brushing these allegations to the side are going to make progressives and Sanders supporters suddenly become more amenable to what the Democratic party is selling.