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US Politics: The Killing Hoax


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7 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

Such a terrible attempt to win an argument.

I'm not attempting to win an argument. I'm pointing out that your stance of not supporting the democratic candidate due to your moral posturing has actual harm. I do not expect you to vote for biden. I think at this point you would likely vote for trump over anyone else, out of some kind of ideology that by having trump.longer you would hasten the revolution you so desperately want other people to die in. 

I am pointing out to other people the actual cost of that moral.posturing. 

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38 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

"Normal" is great if you're a white suburbanite. Sucks for a lot of other people though.

Sorry, but this is an argument only a privileged white person could make. Trump is fucking POC in ways "normal" hasn't in a long time. Getting him out isn't 1a or 1b, it's 1-100. We can work other shit out when he is gone, and preferably the Republican majority in the Senate with him. The Democratic party has a lot to work out, but Trump and the Republicans have accelerated the fucking and killing of minorities, and we can't have another term of him, or he and his Republican successors will make ashes of us all.

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8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't really care.

Especially when the choice is someone who is attempting to take my sons healthcare away permanently and someone who has lost a son to cancer. 

I don't give a shit if you care or not, just stop using it because you think it's some kind of argument on the merits.

My youngest son had two open heart surgeries before he was 7 and it bankrupted me, but I don't trot that out as some kind of "I win" card whenever I get in a healthcare policy argument on this board.

And I especially don't use it to make the implication that people who don't support M4A somehow want me to be bankrupt or my son to die from not getting surgery.

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2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Sorry, but this is an argument only a privileged white person could make. Trump is fucking POC in ways "normal" hasn't in a long time. Getting him out isn't 1a or 1b, it's 1-100. We can work other shit out when he is gone, and preferably the Republican majority in the Senate with him. The Democratic party has a lot to work out, but Trump and the Republicans have accelerated the fucking and killing of minorities, and we can't have another term of him, or he and his Republican successors will make ashes of us all.

Oh really? You think POCs weren't already getting fucked over before Trump came along? And that the Democratic party wasn't complicit in that fucking?

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Just now, The Great Unwashed said:

Oh really? You think POCs weren't already getting fucked over before Trump came along? And that the Democratic party wasn't complicit in that fucking?

I know for a fact that Trump is fucking most POC worse than we have experienced in years. No, the country never stopped fucking POC, but Trump has moved us so far back, he is absolutely crushing us, and some self-proclaimed progressives are ready to let him, along with set the SC for decades to come, acting like their paternalistic bullshit is for the benefit of POC, who will overwhelmingly be voting for Biden. 

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2 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

Yeah, and remember when Hitler killed millions of Jews, and the Stalin regime murdered millions of people? By those standards, Trump's totally fine, right?

Actually by those standards we ally with Stalin (Biden) to get ride of Hitler (Trump.

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3 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I don't give a shit if you care or not, just stop using it because you think it's some kind of argument on the merits.

My youngest son had two open heart surgeries before he was 7 and it bankrupted me, but I don't trot that out as some kind of "I win" card whenever I get in a healthcare policy argument on this board.

Would it have if the ACA existed then? Would M4A? Am genuinely curious. For my son, my insurance covered him when he was having treatment, but after he hit 18 he would have been out of luck for the rest of his life. My suspicion is that that would be the case for your son too. 

And really you should trot that out more, because emotional arguments from personal points are far more effective in changing people's minds than white knighting causes that arent directly part of your life. 

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2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I know for a fact that Trump is fucking most POC worse than we have experienced in years. No, the country never stopped fucking POC, but Trump has moved us so far back, he is absolutely crushing us, and some self-proclaimed progressives are ready to let him, along with set the SC for decades to come, acting like their paternalistic bullshit is for the benefit of POC, who will overwhelmingly be voting for Biden. 

In this thread: poc is told that they are getting the same treatment one way or another instead of listening to their life. 

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2 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Actually by those standards we ally with Stalin (Biden) to get ride of Hitler (Trump.

Actually, Biden is nothing like Hitler or Stalin, so the whole fucking comparison is bullshit, and offensive. Hitler and Stalin both murdered tons of Jews. Biden is a sava himself, who has very good relations with Jews. Nor is he about to go oppress any other minority. Trump has demonstrated the only thing restraining him from full on murdering minorities are the few laws he doesn't yet feel powerful enough to flout without consequences. Otherwise he would absolutely murder minorities for his base.

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16 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Because it seems like Biden and the Democrats are selling out the Me Too movement, as several people involved with the Me Too movement have already alleged?

There are also several people involved in the #metoo movement that would still advocate voting for Biden.  That's a personal choice.  But for the party, it's a really fucking stupid choice to force Biden out based on what we know.

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Just now, Bael's Bastard said:

Actually, Biden is nothing like Hitler or Stalin, so the whole fucking comparison is bullshit, and offensive. Hitler and Stalin both murdered tons of Jews. Biden is a sava himself, who has very good relations with Jews. Nor is he about to go oppress any other minority. Trump has demonstrated the only thing restraining him from full on murdering minorities are the few laws he doesn't yet feel powerful enough to flout without consequences. Otherwise he would absolutely murder minorities for his base.

No he's not, he's not like any of the WW2 leaders cause they were are varying level of bigots way beyond what would be accepted today. So if I'm gonna use a WW2 comparison some wiggle room is gonna be needed.

The point here is basically that we've done the lesser of two evils thing, with a far more morally grey choice than we do now, and the people made the right call. I hope they do so again.

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16 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Actually by those standards we ally with Stalin (Biden) to get ride of Hitler (Trump.

I know. This is just the worst possible place we could be in getting rid of Trump. Nihilism is expected. And if I'm to remain true to the nihilistic philosophy, then I have to discover the new meaning that was hidden by the illusion. But I just can't see what's been revealed except that it's all worse than we thought.

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10 minutes ago, DMC said:

There are also several people involved in the #metoo movement that would still advocate voting for Biden.  That's a personal choice.  But for the party, it's a really fucking stupid choice to force Biden out based on what we know.

I'm not starting from a position of forcing Biden out. I'm saying that both Biden and the party need to take this allegation seriously instead of hoping it goes away. 

Just don't sweep it under the rug is all I'm saying, and make sure your VP pick is a consensus pick in case more allegations come to light.

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19 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I know. This is just the worst possible place we could be in getting rid of Trump. Nihilism is expected. And if I'm to remain true to the nihilistic philosophy, then I have to discover the new meaning that was hidden by the illusion. But I just can't see what's been revealed except that it's all worse than we thought.

The worst place you could be in getting rid of Trump is a new version of the Allies marching through your country pulling people from camps in a couple years.

Don't kid yourself, things could get so much worse than "I have to vote for a kind of boring candidate with accusations of doing something terrible attached to his name".

"the worst place possible" Jesus Christ.

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22 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I'm saying that both Biden and the party need to take this allegation seriously instead of hoping it goes away. 

As I said earlier, I'm not sure what you want Biden's camp to do at this point.  Invite attention to it?  That'd be ridiculous to expect.  The party shouldn't sweep it under the rug, but the only court this is going to be tried in is the court of public opinion, which means unfortunately the media is going to be the judge, not Dem elites.  Again, as I said, if you think they should be putting more pressure on Biden to more thoroughly respond, I agree.  But that's far different from many of the connections/implications you've been making.

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6 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Biden and the Democrats need to address these allegations seriously, not necessarily because he will need to beat the charges to win the Presidency, but mostly because if they don't, they'll have proved themselves to be cynical frauds, who astroturfed the Time's Up movement to score political points when it suited them, but dropped it like a hot potato when it didn't.

The elephant in the room I haven't seen addressed anywhere is that Al Franken was forced to resign for charges that were both fewer and less severe in nature than those leveled against Biden, not to mention that Franken's first (and most damning) accuser had every bit the same credibility problems that Reade does. Yet not only is no one calling for his resignation, barely anyone is willing to discuss it at all.

So...square that circle for me.

The main arguments why this isn’t the same would be that there is a general view now that the Al Franken was a major screw up (as a minimum as a process, maybe as an outcome) and that there were pretty damning (at first glance) photos. 

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12 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

Yeah, the Democratic party doesn't strike me as capable of figuring out how to alter course. Our champions of women will keep ignoring this. I can't vote for Biden at this point.

Quelle surprise. Is this the 4th or 5th time you’ve decided that not voting is better than voting for someone other than Sanders?

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Long post, replying to a lot of elements.

5 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

Neither. Neither should win. Since one will win, I am not taking part in that. Bidens pictures and rumors were evidence enough. If we were really turning a corner in this country then he wouldn't be nominated. People are still fine with this.

The Dems can force him out and find someone else, but they wont. They'll ride this dying horse to November.

4 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

.... I don't think anyone here would argue that the majority of Biden's backers are true Biden believers, and now might be as good a time as any for Biden to withdraw for some kind of health reason and let a consensus candidate be chosen. And I don't think it should be Sanders, before anyone tries to use that one against me........

How exactly can the Dems force him out?  The same way they couldn’t force a freaking independent in Sanders from running in “their” primary?  Or the way republicans had to let Trump run, or that Nazi in the safe Dem Illinois seat?  
it’s a democracy and Biden won.  Ironically Simon has condemned the DMC because in his view they put a finger on the scales, now you both want them to throw the leading candidate out?

4 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

.....ETA: Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are, or that I believe Reade. But the hypocrisy of the Democratic party on this issue is blatant and stunning and every bit as bad as Republican hypocrisy, and I think that some Democrats are already making the mistake of viewing Biden's victory as a foregone conclusion.....

Sorry, but this is just more of the “both parties are the same” lies I see so often argued by those who want to depress Dem voter turn out. Are Biden’s friends and colleagues coming out and calling her a liar? Are they saying she has an agenda?  Do you remember what the Republican Party said about Kavanagh, Moore and Trump’s accusers? Outside of some social media groups, who are attacking Reade?  What Dem groups?

4 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

So it was just my imagination that people in this thread were talking about Biden winning on a "return to normalcy" campaign?

"Normal" is great if you're a white suburbanite. Sucks for a lot of other people though.

Ah, nobody said it would be a return to normal on policy. The return to normalcy was about decency, respect, treating government experts right, partisanship, norms, etc. 

3 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

..... Biden and the Democratic party seem not only to not want to seriously address these allegations, but to actively ignore them, and that makes me even more concerned than I already was that all the nice-sounding overtures of late made towards progressives are nothing more than empty words considering how the party's reaction to these allegations have played out.........

2 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I'm not starting from a position of forcing Biden out. I'm saying that both Biden and the party need to take this allegation seriously instead of hoping it goes away. 

Just don't sweep it under the rug is all I'm saying, and make sure your VP pick is a consensus pick in case more allegations come to light.

What exactly do you want the Dems to do? What is taking it seriously?  There is a single accusation. Biden has denied it. What is he meant to do now?  
 

Unlike Moore or Trump there are not multiple accusers, or multiple occasions. Unlike Kavanagh there is no potential witnesses, and nobody has verified what she told them widely (they have with a single reporter).

2 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

Moral posturing from the guy who uses his son's illness to beat down others. Biden is a rapist. You labeling me as someone who is being holier than thou is ridiculous and you know it. Doesn't bug me, you're the one who has to live with this moral reductionism. 

When my son had cancer I never used him as a prop or to win arguments.

Really? That is your standard? One person’s claims with limited support from those she is meant to have told?
Because in that case you’re a hypocrite. Because that is the level of proof of Warren’s claims about Sanders sexist remarks. She said it happened, and told a colleague/friend afterwards. But I didn’t see you arguing Sanders should withdraw from the race....

1 hour ago, Simon Steele said:

I'd vote for lots of people, but you know you're right. Why should I vote for any liberal fool trotted out. Seeing all the rape apologists coming out in full force tells me the Democratic party and I have to part ways. "Oh he's just a guy who sexually assaults women"--this shit is sick. 

I'm glad I do have some ethical conviction (because this isn't about morality in the least). 

So yeah, you friendly liberals and condescension definitely aren't winning people over. Maybe you can find a personal tragedy to exploit to try and get voters out for Biden.

Nice stawmen. Nobody has apologised for Biden. All they’ve said is it’s he said she said, no collaborating proof, so vote against the guy caught on tape bragging of sexual assault. Nobody on this board has attacked Reade. I don’t think anyone here has even said they think she’s lying. 
 

Do you really want a world where a single accusation is assumed to mean something is true with all the attendant consequences?

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5 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

Neither. Neither should win. Since one will win, I am not taking part in that. Bidens pictures and rumors were evidence enough. If we were really turning a corner in this country then he wouldn't be nominated. People are still fine with this.

The Dems can force him out and find someone else, but they wont. They'll ride this dying horse to November.

The differences between a Biden term and a 2nd Trump term will be measured in real human suffering.

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