US Politics: The Killing Hoax

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, OnionAhaiReborn said:

I'm relieved to know that I was just being casually othered so you can prove you don't care about me. Makes perfect sense. 

No, no, no. I'm not trying to prove anything to you. I'm using you as a punching bag as I try to display to bystanders how ridiculous your beliefs are.

This is all a show. I'm putting on a show for people who really don't like Biden but also know that he's the right choice in the end.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I do not think a man who groped a bunch of people without their consent and didn’t seem particularly contrite about doing it so much as facing some consequences for it lives up to the man who wrote Conscience of a Liberal. At all. That’s a very high bar to clear, and Wellstone’s finest legacy was that owning and growing from being wrong.

Heh.  Are we really acting like Paul Wellstone wasn't a part of the rampant sexual harassment environment that existed on the Hill during the time period of these accusations?  That's nice, I guess.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

As for Ellison, I read the victim’s statement and I believe it. It was clearly written by someone who endured narcissistic abuse. 

These are separate things though. Keith is a, let's just say hyper person, to be kind. I can absolutely see him being an emotionally abusive guy. It wouldn't even shock me if he was physically abusive. 

But, you cannot go and claim that you have direct video evidence of said abuse, and then refuse to give it out, all while smearing someone. That's wrong. 

[Reny of Storms End]

6 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

For everyone out there who thinks it's political suicide to push for a fracking ban, it's probabaly actual suicide to keep fracking:

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/methane-permian-basin-oil-gas-climate-change/?__twitter_impression=true

 

I live right in the middle of fracking country in PA. For the past couple months I've smelled methane around my parents property whenever I go outside. The nearest wells are at least 10 miles away. 

[Fury Resurrected]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

These are separate things though. Keith is a, let's just say hyper person, to be kind. I can absolutely see him being an emotionally abusive guy. It wouldn't even shock me if he was physically abusive. 

But, you cannot go and claim that you have direct video evidence of said abuse, and then refuse to give it out, all while smearing someone. That's wrong. 

I don’t agree with that statement. YMMV but I know especially if I was a mother, as she is, I would not allow a video of me being abused to be potentially seen by my kid. 

[Zorral]

The lockdown protests highly organized and fiscally incentivised orgs like the NRA dive-off-the-lemming-cliff is composed entirely of white people.  It has been noticed.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2020/4/25/21234774/coronavirus-covid-19-protest-anti-lockdown

Though, to be fair the white peeps did the same back in the days of the Influenza.  They were called anti maskers.

https://www.sfgate.com/coronavirus/article/1918-pandemic-masks-bay-area-california-15185425.php

[Fury Resurrected]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Heh.  Are we really acting like Paul Wellstone wasn't a part of the rampant sexual harassment environment that existed on the Hill during the time period of these accusations?  That's nice, I guess.

Unless you’ve got some evidence of wrongdoing on his part, which I’ve never heard of (especially since he’s one of the only people to have stuck up for Anita Hill), your only argument is that he had the same job as people who did it. And news flash- you have the same job as plenty of rapists, too- we all do.

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

Unless you’ve got some evidence of wrongdoing on his part

I'll just say in general that Congress could be accurately described as Animal House for a very long time.  That's not only based on personal contacts that were staffers exactly when this took place, but also any honest historical records.

20 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

And news flash- you have the same job as plenty of rapists, too- we all do.

I...don't get this.  We all have jobs and rapists have jobs too?  Yes.  That is true.  I'm sure many rapists have been flailing teachers and/or researchers as well.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Allegations are just that to me. I don't give anything credit that I'm not certain over.

Seriously anyone can accuse anyone of anything at any time. And for me allegations that are timed to coincide with people seeking an office are the ones I weigh the least. Simply for the fact that I'm forced to question the timing and why the accusation wasn't made earlier?

If there's another "October Surprise" , whether from the left or right, I'm not going to pay it any heedance on whom I vote for. I'll view it as an attempt to manipulate, an attempt that I do not appreciate either.

[Fury Resurrected]

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'll just say in general that Congress could be accurately described as Animal House for a very long time.  That's not only based on personal contacts that were staffers exactly when this took place, but also any honest historical records.

I...don't get this.  We all have jobs and rapists have jobs too?  Yes.  That is true.  I'm sure many rapists have been flailing teachers and/or researchers as well.

I’ll clarify- just because you share a profession with people who are bad actors does not mean that you yourself are a bad actor. Comparing Wellstone- whose reputation was spotless, to people actually accused of shit is no different than saying because some people in your profession are up to no good that you yourself are part of it. Smearing someone who has never been accused of doing, saying, enabling, or covering up anything inappropriate like that is just being obtuse for no reason.

[Kalbear]

Just now, DireWolfSpirit said:

Allegations are just that to me. I don't give anything credit that I'm not certain over.

Seriously anyone can accuse anyone of anything at any time. And for me allegations that are timed to coincide with people seeking an office are the ones I weigh the least. Simply for the fact that I'm forced to question the timing and why the accusation wasn't made earlier?

If there's another "October Surprise" , whether from the left or right, I'm not going to pay it any heedance on whom I vote for. I'll view it as an attempt to manipulate, an attempt that I do not appreciate either.

That is one that makes me think about it too, because while the Kavanaugh/Reade thing is pretty similar, the idea that Biden going out as VP in 2008 wouldn't trigger this response is odd to me. Being one step away from being the most powerful person in the land isn't enough? 

That doesn't make it untrue, again. Everyone's trauma is different, and everyone's response to it changes over time as well. But it makes it less credible. 

@Fury Resurrected, I'm sorry if I've ever diminished your experience or other's experience. If you're going to make that choice to not support Biden because of what we know or what we find out later, good for you. It is not a great experience to know that either you'll suffer but others might not, or that you'll not suffer as much but others will more, and that can't be an easy choice. It is definitely not childish.

Childish is refusing to vote for Biden because he isn't Sanders. Or because he isn't promising enough change in the precise way that someone wants. There are plenty of those people too. They probably weren't going to vote Dem anyway, but it's still exceptionally childish. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

48 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I don’t agree with that statement. YMMV but I know especially if I was a mother, as she is, I would not allow a video of me being abused to be potentially seen by my kid. 

The kid claimed to have seen the video. That's how it all started. 

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/13/638199556/congressman-accused-of-domestic-abuse-by-former-girlfriend

[Fury Resurrected]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

That is one that makes me think about it too, because while the Kavanaugh/Reade thing is pretty similar, the idea that Biden going out as VP in 2008 wouldn't trigger this response is odd to me. Being one step away from being the most powerful person in the land isn't enough? 

That doesn't make it untrue, again. Everyone's trauma is different, and everyone's response to it changes over time as well. But it makes it less credible. 

@Fury Resurrected

 

I think the VP nomination is way different than looking like the democratic nominee against serial rapist/racist/oligarch/dangerous moron Donald Trump. For one, nobody gets to vote on who gets the VP nod, it’s up to the nominee alone ultimately. And if you can imagine the pitchforks that would come out against someone viewed as trying to ding the campaign of the first black president- before #metoo, when Weinstein and Epstein were still raping with impunity- you’re out of your mind if you don’t think the situation is way different now.

[felice]

4 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Sort of looks like for a lot of people, all that shit about Kavanaugh wasn't about his abusive rapey past but about the fact that he was Uber conservative, politically.

One big difference with Kavanaugh is that the solution was simple; throw him out and nominate someone else instead. Replacing Biden is a much bigger problem - he's already effectively won the Democratic primary, so how do you provide any alternative candidate with democratic legitimacy? My preference would be for Biden to withdraw and the DNC to run a ranked choice postal vote open to all registered Democrats across the country. Put every candidate who got at least one delegate on the ballot. The chances of that happening are effectively zero, though.

[Fury Resurrected]

7 minutes ago, felice said:

One big difference with Kavanaugh is that the solution was simple; throw him out and nominate someone else instead. Replacing Biden is a much bigger problem - he's already effectively won the Democratic primary, so how do you provide any alternative candidate with democratic legitimacy? My preference would be for Biden to withdraw and the DNC to run a ranked choice postal vote open to all registered Democrats across the country. Put every candidate who got at least one delegate on the ballot. The chances of that happening are effectively zero, though.

They are zero. A lot of states (like mine) don’t have party affiliation in registration at all. You’re just a registered voter period and you can ask for one ballot or the other when you show up to vote.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I think the VP nomination is way different than looking like the democratic nominee against serial rapist/racist/oligarch/dangerous moron Donald Trump. For one, nobody gets to vote on who gets the VP nod, it’s up to the nominee alone ultimately. And if you can imagine the pitchforks that would come out against someone viewed as trying to ding the campaign of the first black president- before #metoo, when Weinstein and Epstein were still raping with impunity- you’re out of your mind if you don’t think the situation is way different now.

The situation is different, but the actual feeling that it would generate doesn't seem like it would be that different to a person. In the case of Ford, for instance, it was that Kavanaugh was constantly being talked about in the media and would affect her life in a way that he wouldn't as a district judge. I would imagine that it would be similar for Biden. 

It also doesn't make as much sense that it comes out now, instead of, say, in November or earlier, by your same logic. The environment hasn't changed so much since November, right? I guess it could be a different kind of trigger, but it'd be good to hear those thoughts. 

Mostly, there are a lot of problems with her credibility. Again, that in no way makes her a liar or makes her wrong - but it does make it hard to actually back politically. There is one person who is willing to corroborate her story, but never on the record. Her brother has changed his story at least twice now as well. None of the other staffers at the time remember her complaining about it. The senate office doesn't have a record of her complaint. None of her supervisors remember her complaining at all and deny that it happened. She has gone on record and said she was a victim of a sexual assault to the police - but did not name Biden in that statement. Not a single other person has ever stated that Biden did anything like this behavior in his 40 year political history (at least so far; it might bring up others). She's changed her story publicly multiple times. She did this weird-ass think about Putin, then lied about why she did it, and now she repudiates it. 

Again, none of this makes her story false. But it makes her less credible. And I think it is reasonable to at least entertain the idea that this is politically motivated, because that is going to happen as well - if not to Biden, then to others.

[DMC]

18 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

Comparing Wellstone- whose reputation was spotless, to people actually accused of shit is no different than saying because some people in your profession are up to no good that you yourself are part of it. Smearing someone who has never been accused of doing, saying, enabling, or covering up anything inappropriate like that is just being obtuse for no reason.

That's a fair assessment in the abstract.  But, even if say Wellstone was this paragon you imagine, wouldn't it be objectionable that he allowed this to go on all around him before he died?  If I'm not allowed to ethically vote for Biden by your standards, why do you hold up Wellstone as an officeholder that at the least sat by and tolerated said standards?  I'm not smearing any one person, I'm smearing an era.  If you have arguments that I'm wrong about that, please do tell.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

4 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

Conservative policies, especially as it relates to the Supreme Court, are intimately related to aiding and abetting sexual abusers/harassers. A good example is these corporate nondisclosure agreements. Or look at what DeVos has done on campuses in regards to sexual assault accusations.

I didn't used to realize that Republicans and libertarians actively want wealthy men to get away with sexual abuse and harassment. They completely do. (I don't think they care either way if middle class or working class men also get away with it)

Thank you. That's the bit about our favorite feel good high and mighty moral high ground keyboard warriors don't seem to get, or seem unwilling to think thru to the bitter end.

But I am sure they will protest against the next Kavanaugh like Supreme Court judge alongside Susan Sarandon, while they invoke Hitler and Stalin as some thought out argument.

[Larry of the Lawn]

3 hours ago, DMC said:

I have a very hard time believing that.  You were on the front lines of defending anything negative being associated with Sanders to an annoying degree.  Pretty sure you once admonished me for referring to someone innocuously as a Sanders "staffer" rather than an "advocate."  As if that made a substantive difference.  We all have our political biases.  I think it's important to recognize that -- particularly within a necessarily two-party system. 

This "concern" about Biden seems obviously motivated by people that are still pissed he got the nomination.  I'm pissed he got the nomination too.  But sometime over the past 20 years I grew up in terms of my political perspective (whereas I failed to grow up basically in all other aspects of life) and realized politicians were never going to meet my expectations.  You have to choose the better of two evils in this electoral system.  To use another odious term, welcome to "adulting."

Believe what you want.  I was definitely a very vocal and probably strident Sanders defender, but then he was never accused of anything like this.  And I do remember pointing out that Zephyr Teachout was not on Sanders' staff when she wrote that piece about Biden being corrupt, call it admonishing if you want to.  

I also am fairly certain I've never dismissed an allegation like this or castigated someone for bringing it up.  If everyone sees my motivation for bringing this up as suspect, oh well.  Doesn't change anything.

Yes, I understand that our system is necessarily a lesser of two evils choice most of the time.  I've voted that way since I've been voting, contrary to what Jace said about me not being a voter.  I don't live in a swing state, but I will in all likelihood vote for Biden, if only to run up the numbers.  But I'm also going to be critical and if there's any chance that he feels that he needs to move to the left to appease skeptical voters, I'm all for it.  Maybe that's childish, sounds pretty pragmatic to me though.

3 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

.

 

[James Arryn]

11 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Thank you. That's the bit about our favorite feel good high and mighty moral high ground keyboard warriors don't seem to get, or seem unwilling to think thru to the bitter end.

But I am sure they will protest against the next Kavanaugh like Supreme Court judge alongside Susan Sarandon, while they invoke Hitler and Stalin as some thought out argument.

As already noted, the alternatives to a Kavanaugh type are almost infinite. The alternative to Biden is Donald Trump. The possibility of a Presidential candidate who doesn’t have a potentially damning sexual history at this point is zero, as is the possibility of a candidate who will represent hope for sexual assault victims.

The possibility of helping all kinds of other types of victims is still there, though. That’s the call everyone has to make for themselves, though it seems a pretty clear cut one to me.