US Politics: The Killing Hoax

[Larry of the Lawn]

13 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Biden and the Democrats need to address these allegations seriously, not necessarily because he will need to beat the charges to win the Presidency, but mostly because if they don't, they'll have proved themselves to be cynical frauds, who astroturfed the Time's Up movement to score political points when it suited them, but dropped it like a hot potato when it didn't.

The elephant in the room I haven't seen addressed anywhere is that Al Franken was forced to resign for charges that were both fewer and less severe in nature than those leveled against Biden, not to mention that Franken's first (and most damning) accuser had every bit the same credibility problems that Reade does. Yet not only is no one calling for his resignation, barely anyone is willing to discuss it at all.

So...square that circle for me.

About six months ago this was rehashed and people wanted to crucify Gillibrand over Franken.  I think it was when the Northam in blackface stuff surfaced.  

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, larrytheimp said:

About six months ago this was rehashed and people wanted to crucify Gillibrand over Franken.  I think it was when the Northam in blackface stuff surfaced.  

 

I remember that discussion, but the argument could be made that's an apples-to-oranges comparison.

This is straight-up apples-to-apples.

[Jace, Extat]

5 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

No, I'm not naive. I'm just pointing out they're showing their true colors, and progressive supporters should remember that when Democrats speak with their forked tongues.

Have fun with your progressive party. I hear Jill Stein is lovely this time of year.

[Guest]

I mean, for fuck's sake, this isn't exactly news.

Democrats jettisoned their POC constituents in the 90s to tack to the right with tough-on-crime policies that were squarely aimed at the people they were claiming to champion.

Now, who are Democrats courting? Affluent, white, suburban voters. Do you think racial policies are their top political concern? 

Who's naive now?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Have fun with your progressive party. I hear Jill Stein is lovely this time of year.

Have fun when you're the constituency that gets thrown under the bus.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Just now, The Great Unwashed said:

I mean, for fuck's sake, this isn't exactly news.

Democrats jettisoned their POC constituents in the 90s to tack to the right with tough-on-crime policies that were squarely aimed at the people they were claiming to champion.

Now, who are Democrats courting? Affluent, white, suburban voters. Do you think racial policies are their top political concern? 

Who's naive now?

Dems stand for something.  Supreme court justices I think or Roe v Wade, or maybe the Hyde amendment or maybe not.  

I think they're just lazy and if they can make any argument that they are better than the Repubs they immediately fall back on that.  There's no vision other than 'beat Trump'.

It's a prevent defense all the time, every play.

[Fragile Bird]

The rumour that keeps popping up is that Kim Jong-un is dead. I also saw a story a day or two ago that a team of doctors had flown in from China to see if they could help him.

[DMC]

On the Biden accusations, I'm wondering - what exactly would you like Democrats to do right now?  Force Biden to withdraw?  Because that's gonna help the Democrats retake the White House?  And if they don't, what happens to all those downtrodden constituencies the Democratic party is "selling out"?

I understand being aggravated politicians are loathsome creatures.  But unless we nominate a Georgian evangelical or a biracial paragon, fact is usually these guys are at least about as rapey as Biden for, like, all of American history.  

[Centrist Simon Steele]

5 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

What about the Access Hollywood Bus tape, where Biden bragged about sexually assaulting woman, or his e-mail server. Or how he undermined an FBI investigation against him, by firing the FBI director.  Or how he broke campaign finance laws to pay hush money to a porn star and playboy model. Biden is so done.

Yeah, and remember when Hitler killed millions of Jews, and the Stalin regime murdered millions of people? By those standards, Trump's totally fine, right? This argument that "well Trump did bad stuff" when people rightly are upset and sickened by the way Tara Reade is being gaslit and ignored is ridiculous. Trump never pretended to represent me or other members of the Democratic party. Biden does though, and Biden has a huge issue on his hands. The defense I've seen? Well, if she was sexually assaulted, why did her mom only mention that she was harassed on live TV? And why did Blasey-Ford's story differ so much from Kavanaugh's calendar? 

This is flat out a perpetuation of rape culture. Here's a list: https://www.marshall.edu/wcenter/sexual-assault/rape-culture/

Some notables from that list:

Publicly scrutinizing a victim’s dress, mental state, motives, and history (her story's change, she was a Bernie supporter, she once liked Putin, no one liked her at that job, etc.)

Tolerance of sexual harassment (Biden may have sexually harassed her and lots of women, but he didn't assault her)

Refusing to take rape accusations seriously (or only taking them seriously if they're levied against someone you're not going to vote for)

Go check out what the other side says when someone brings up Trump's rapist past. They make the exact same arguments: Clinton was worse, Bill Clinton was a rapist and Hillary covered for him, etc.

People willing to "hold their nose" and vote for Biden, fine. I don't care. But trying to someone downplay Biden's behavior by comparing it to another piece of shit's behavior? Quit making excuses. You're voting for a person who definitely puts his hands all over women, and who might have sexually assaulted someone. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

About six months ago this was rehashed and people wanted to crucify Gillibrand over Franken.  I think it was when the Northam in blackface stuff surfaced.  

 

Yeah, I guess why am I surprised that the politicians who supported Me Too are suddenly MIA? Shit, where's Gillibrand?

[Centrist Simon Steele]

12 minutes ago, DMC said:

On the Biden accusations, I'm wondering - what exactly would you like Democrats to do right now?  Force Biden to withdraw?  Because that's gonna help the Democrats retake the White House?  And if they don't, what happens to all those downtrodden constituencies the Democratic party is "selling out"?

I understand being aggravated politicians are loathsome creatures.  But unless we nominate a Georgian evangelical or a biracial paragon, fact is usually these guys are at least about as rapey as Biden for, like, all of American history.  

Wow. All of them are rapey, so it's okay. 

[Zorral]

At this time when all the work in television and film has stopped for the foreseeable or non-foreseeable future, people may no longer willing to stay silent about his dependence on Depends and medications and other equally noxious addictions and behaviors.

https://airmail.news/issues/2020-4-18/the-highest-office
 

Quote

 

[....]
Casler is that Apprentice unicorn—one of the only people, out of dozens, possibly even hundreds, who worked on the show, who has publicly violated his 24-page non-disclosure agreement. Casler says NDA now stands for “No, Dumb Ass.” As in, “No, Mr. President, I’m not going to stay silent anymore.” But according to Casler, Mark Burnett, the creator of The Apprentice and a seasoned Trump ally, has made clear to former Apprentice staff that he will sue anyone who talks—a threat that stops any non-celebrity or non-billionaire in his or her tracks. “It’s the working middle class in television who could really bury [President Trump],” says Casler.

Yet they haven’t buried him, even though many of them presumably know where a lot of Trump’s bodies are buried. These camerapersons, makeup artists, hairstylists, and logistics crews, among others, are often on tenuous freelance contracts and their entire professional reputation (and their ability to get hired again) rests on their discretion. “In this business, Noel is a renegade,” says Amato. “Producers look down on you if you talk publicly about the talent.”
[....]

 

 

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

Wow. All of them are rapey, so it's okay. 

The objective of a political party in a plurality system is to gain power in order to secure preferential policy outcomes to their constituents.  Does that make it morally sad some times?  Yeah, reality sucks.  But why "progressives" always seem to insist on the need to play by a double standard - which effectively means competing against a wholly amoral opposition with both hands tied behind your back - is simply pathetic.  Does Reade's accusations deserve to be taken more seriously and given more attention by the media?  Sure, I agree with that.  But what has the Biden campaign done specifically other than denying the charges?  How have they "gaslit" her?  Maybe I'm missing something, but seems your qualm is much more with the media than Biden's camp and those dastardly dastard elite Dems.

[Freshwater Spartan]

The me too movement will only  get 1 political scalp and that scalp  was Al Franken, over charges that I personally thought were overblown. After that a couple of things became obvious:

1. In doing so Dems took out the one candidate that could have united all factions in the party, generated enthusiasm, had media savy and could have crushed Trump. Whole different primary. Biden, Sanders, Buttigeig.... none of them would have stood a chance against Franken. Trump would be toast no sweat. And in exchange for taking out Franken they got....well...you tell me?

2. Republicans know it's stupid to take out their own and will never do it regardless of the accusations and they figured out that at the end of the day most people don't care about accusations from decades ago.

Kinda sucks I know. But if its Trump an accused assaulter vs Biden another accused assaulter who do you want to win? 

 

 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Neither. Neither should win. Since one will win, I am not taking part in that. Bidens pictures and rumors were evidence enough. If we were really turning a corner in this country then he wouldn't be nominated. People are still fine with this.

The Dems can force him out and find someone else, but they wont. They'll ride this dying horse to November.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

22 minutes ago, DMC said:

The objective of a political party in a plurality system is to gain power in order to secure preferential policy outcomes to their constituents.  Does that make it morally sad some times?  Yeah, reality sucks.  But why "progressives" always seem to insist on the need to play by a double standard - which effectively means competing against a wholly amoral opposition with both hands tied behind your back - is simply pathetic.  Does Reade's accusations deserve to be taken more seriously and given more attention by the media?  Sure, I agree with that.  But what has the Biden campaign done specifically other than denying the charges?  How have they "gaslit" her?  Maybe I'm missing something, but seems your qualm is much more with the media than Biden's camp and those dastardly dastard elite Dems.

It's so cool to hear why this is all okay and the opposite of "pathetic." I'm not surprised you fall on that side of the argument tho.

PS yeah my qualm is with the media. And Biden for being a handsy rapist who actually has never acknowledged this personally. He's scum.

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, DMC said:

On the Biden accusations, I'm wondering - what exactly would you like Democrats to do right now?  Force Biden to withdraw?  Because that's gonna help the Democrats retake the White House?  And if they don't, what happens to all those downtrodden constituencies the Democratic party is "selling out"?

I understand being aggravated politicians are loathsome creatures.  But unless we nominate a Georgian evangelical or a biracial paragon, fact is usually these guys are at least about as rapey as Biden for, like, all of American history.  

I don't claim to have all the answers.

Do I want Trump to win another term? Obviously not. 

But, do I want the party purporting to champion those without a voice to sell itself as a return to the status quo, which is what led to the rise of Trump in the first place, and which that same party was complicit in creating? Also no.

As for what can be done? Well, I personally believe that if there's any time in history where Democrats will vote for a (competent) warm body, ANY warm body, over the current President, i think it's now.

I don't think anyone here would argue that the majority of Biden's backers are true Biden believers, and now might be as good a time as any for Biden to withdraw for some kind of health reason and let a consensus candidate be chosen. And I don't think it should be Sanders, before anyone tries to use that one against me.

Is it risky? Yes. But a Pyrrhic victory isn't much better than a loss.

[DMC]

18 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

The Dems can force him out and find someone else, but they wont.

And they'll be giving the election to Trump.  And then what?

15 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I don't think anyone here would argue that the majority of Biden's backers are true Biden believers, and now might be as good a time as any for Biden to withdraw for some kind of health reason and let a consensus candidate be chosen. And I don't think it should be Sanders, before anyone tries to use that one against me.

Is it risky? Yes. But a Pyrrhic victory isn't much better than a loss.

It's more than risky.  Sanders shouldn't take if he's offered.  I wouldn't.  You're the substitute teacher.  That candidate would be DOA.

ETA:  I'm also unclear how the victory would be "pyrrhic."  Gross, maybe, but not pyrrhic.

[Martell Spy]

19 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I don't claim to have all the answers.

Do I want Trump to win another term? Obviously not. 

But, do I want the party purporting to champion those without a voice to sell itself as a return to the status quo, which is what led to the rise of Trump in the first place, and which that same party was complicit in creating? Also no.

As for what can be done? Well, I personally believe that if there's any time in history where Democrats will vote for a (competent) warm body, ANY warm body, over the current President, i think it's now.

I don't think anyone here would argue that the majority of Biden's backers are true Biden believers, and now might be as good a time as any for Biden to withdraw for some kind of health reason and let a consensus candidate be chosen. And I don't think it should be Sanders, before anyone tries to use that one against me.

Is it risky? Yes. But a Pyrrhic victory isn't much better than a loss.

What is a consensus candidate and how is that chosen? You're talking about removing the candidate that people voted for and replacing him with one they didn't vote for. Sounds a lot like how the process used to work with the smoky back rooms.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, DMC said:

ETA:  I'm also unclear how the victory would be "pyrrhic."  Gross, maybe, but not pyrrhic.

Because asking where the Democratic party is willing to draw the line, or if it's willing to draw a line at all, is a question worth asking, and the longer that can gets kicked down the road, the worse off we will all be.

I know I'm not alone in seeing this pandemic as a precursor to what the eventual response to the effects of climate change will be. If it's trying to preserve the status quo at all costs, well then I think we're fucked.

Trump is just the latest excuse in a long line of why the can should be kicked down the road. It's like deja vu all over again.