Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
A Horse Named Stranger

US Politics: The Killing Hoax

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Even if Democrats win this election they'll only be doing what Obama had to do after winning in '08, except the job will be even more difficult, and Republicans opposition more intransigent. That sounds like more of the same to me.

And the Biden allegations have a relationship to this reality how?  Sounds like you've devolved into bemoaning the state of the electoral environment more than anything related to the topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Your moral superiority does nothing to keep my son alive. 

Such a terrible attempt to win an argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Well, Franken didn't have charges filed against him for digitally penetrating a woman without consent, so...how deep do you want to keep digging that hole?

Until the evidence shows things one way or another. That's sort of the point. Franken had solid evidence that he didnt dispute. So far that isnt the case with Biden. It well could be! I've said from the beginning that it is likely accurate. 

But politically, at least so far, it isnt remotely as damaging. You may wish that it was. So do I. But it isnt. 

18 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

You do realize that a lot of us "moral superiority" types have skin in that game too, right?

I don't really care. Simon certainly doesnt act like it, and it is an absolute fact that if you're concerned about womens rights biden is absurdly better. If women start deserting Biden in droves I'll be right with them, but right now women support Biden more than they did clinton, and far more than trump. Instead of speaking for them I'll go with listening to them. 

Especially when the choice is someone who is attempting to take my sons healthcare away permanently and someone who has lost a son to cancer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, DMC said:

And the Biden allegations have a relationship to this reality how?  Sounds like you've devolved into bemoaning the state of the electoral environment more than anything related to the topic.

Because it seems like Biden and the Democrats are selling out the Me Too movement, as several people involved with the Me Too movement have already alleged?

Biden and the Democratic party seem not only to not want to seriously address these allegations, but to actively ignore them, and that makes me even more concerned than I already was that all the nice-sounding overtures of late made towards progressives are nothing more than empty words considering how the party's reaction to these allegations have played out.

Look, I seriously hope you're right. But the Democratic party hasn't exactly had a solid foundation when it comes to championing progressive causes for a while now, and I don't see how brushing these allegations to the side are going to make progressives and Sanders supporters suddenly become more amenable to what the Democratic party is selling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

Such a terrible attempt to win an argument.

I'm not attempting to win an argument. I'm pointing out that your stance of not supporting the democratic candidate due to your moral posturing has actual harm. I do not expect you to vote for biden. I think at this point you would likely vote for trump over anyone else, out of some kind of ideology that by having trump.longer you would hasten the revolution you so desperately want other people to die in. 

I am pointing out to other people the actual cost of that moral.posturing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

"Normal" is great if you're a white suburbanite. Sucks for a lot of other people though.

Sorry, but this is an argument only a privileged white person could make. Trump is fucking POC in ways "normal" hasn't in a long time. Getting him out isn't 1a or 1b, it's 1-100. We can work other shit out when he is gone, and preferably the Republican majority in the Senate with him. The Democratic party has a lot to work out, but Trump and the Republicans have accelerated the fucking and killing of minorities, and we can't have another term of him, or he and his Republican successors will make ashes of us all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't really care.

Especially when the choice is someone who is attempting to take my sons healthcare away permanently and someone who has lost a son to cancer. 

I don't give a shit if you care or not, just stop using it because you think it's some kind of argument on the merits.

My youngest son had two open heart surgeries before he was 7 and it bankrupted me, but I don't trot that out as some kind of "I win" card whenever I get in a healthcare policy argument on this board.

And I especially don't use it to make the implication that people who don't support M4A somehow want me to be bankrupt or my son to die from not getting surgery.

Edited by The Great Unwashed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Sorry, but this is an argument only a privileged white person could make. Trump is fucking POC in ways "normal" hasn't in a long time. Getting him out isn't 1a or 1b, it's 1-100. We can work other shit out when he is gone, and preferably the Republican majority in the Senate with him. The Democratic party has a lot to work out, but Trump and the Republicans have accelerated the fucking and killing of minorities, and we can't have another term of him, or he and his Republican successors will make ashes of us all.

Oh really? You think POCs weren't already getting fucked over before Trump came along? And that the Democratic party wasn't complicit in that fucking?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, The Great Unwashed said:

Oh really? You think POCs weren't already getting fucked over before Trump came along? And that the Democratic party wasn't complicit in that fucking?

I know for a fact that Trump is fucking most POC worse than we have experienced in years. No, the country never stopped fucking POC, but Trump has moved us so far back, he is absolutely crushing us, and some self-proclaimed progressives are ready to let him, along with set the SC for decades to come, acting like their paternalistic bullshit is for the benefit of POC, who will overwhelmingly be voting for Biden. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

Yeah, and remember when Hitler killed millions of Jews, and the Stalin regime murdered millions of people? By those standards, Trump's totally fine, right?

Actually by those standards we ally with Stalin (Biden) to get ride of Hitler (Trump.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I don't give a shit if you care or not, just stop using it because you think it's some kind of argument on the merits.

My youngest son had two open heart surgeries before he was 7 and it bankrupted me, but I don't trot that out as some kind of "I win" card whenever I get in a healthcare policy argument on this board.

Would it have if the ACA existed then? Would M4A? Am genuinely curious. For my son, my insurance covered him when he was having treatment, but after he hit 18 he would have been out of luck for the rest of his life. My suspicion is that that would be the case for your son too. 

And really you should trot that out more, because emotional arguments from personal points are far more effective in changing people's minds than white knighting causes that arent directly part of your life. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I know for a fact that Trump is fucking most POC worse than we have experienced in years. No, the country never stopped fucking POC, but Trump has moved us so far back, he is absolutely crushing us, and some self-proclaimed progressives are ready to let him, along with set the SC for decades to come, acting like their paternalistic bullshit is for the benefit of POC, who will overwhelmingly be voting for Biden. 

In this thread: poc is told that they are getting the same treatment one way or another instead of listening to their life. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Actually by those standards we ally with Stalin (Biden) to get ride of Hitler (Trump.

Actually, Biden is nothing like Hitler or Stalin, so the whole fucking comparison is bullshit, and offensive. Hitler and Stalin both murdered tons of Jews. Biden is a sava himself, who has very good relations with Jews. Nor is he about to go oppress any other minority. Trump has demonstrated the only thing restraining him from full on murdering minorities are the few laws he doesn't yet feel powerful enough to flout without consequences. Otherwise he would absolutely murder minorities for his base.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Because it seems like Biden and the Democrats are selling out the Me Too movement, as several people involved with the Me Too movement have already alleged?

There are also several people involved in the #metoo movement that would still advocate voting for Biden.  That's a personal choice.  But for the party, it's a really fucking stupid choice to force Biden out based on what we know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Bael's Bastard said:

Actually, Biden is nothing like Hitler or Stalin, so the whole fucking comparison is bullshit, and offensive. Hitler and Stalin both murdered tons of Jews. Biden is a sava himself, who has very good relations with Jews. Nor is he about to go oppress any other minority. Trump has demonstrated the only thing restraining him from full on murdering minorities are the few laws he doesn't yet feel powerful enough to flout without consequences. Otherwise he would absolutely murder minorities for his base.

No he's not, he's not like any of the WW2 leaders cause they were are varying level of bigots way beyond what would be accepted today. So if I'm gonna use a WW2 comparison some wiggle room is gonna be needed.

The point here is basically that we've done the lesser of two evils thing, with a far more morally grey choice than we do now, and the people made the right call. I hope they do so again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Actually by those standards we ally with Stalin (Biden) to get ride of Hitler (Trump.

I know. This is just the worst possible place we could be in getting rid of Trump. Nihilism is expected. And if I'm to remain true to the nihilistic philosophy, then I have to discover the new meaning that was hidden by the illusion. But I just can't see what's been revealed except that it's all worse than we thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, DMC said:

There are also several people involved in the #metoo movement that would still advocate voting for Biden.  That's a personal choice.  But for the party, it's a really fucking stupid choice to force Biden out based on what we know.

I'm not starting from a position of forcing Biden out. I'm saying that both Biden and the party need to take this allegation seriously instead of hoping it goes away. 

Just don't sweep it under the rug is all I'm saying, and make sure your VP pick is a consensus pick in case more allegations come to light.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I know. This is just the worst possible place we could be in getting rid of Trump. Nihilism is expected. And if I'm to remain true to the nihilistic philosophy, then I have to discover the new meaning that was hidden by the illusion. But I just can't see what's been revealed except that it's all worse than we thought.

The worst place you could be in getting rid of Trump is a new version of the Allies marching through your country pulling people from camps in a couple years.

Don't kid yourself, things could get so much worse than "I have to vote for a kind of boring candidate with accusations of doing something terrible attached to his name".

"the worst place possible" Jesus Christ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I'm saying that both Biden and the party need to take this allegation seriously instead of hoping it goes away. 

As I said earlier, I'm not sure what you want Biden's camp to do at this point.  Invite attention to it?  That'd be ridiculous to expect.  The party shouldn't sweep it under the rug, but the only court this is going to be tried in is the court of public opinion, which means unfortunately the media is going to be the judge, not Dem elites.  Again, as I said, if you think they should be putting more pressure on Biden to more thoroughly respond, I agree.  But that's far different from many of the connections/implications you've been making.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Biden and the Democrats need to address these allegations seriously, not necessarily because he will need to beat the charges to win the Presidency, but mostly because if they don't, they'll have proved themselves to be cynical frauds, who astroturfed the Time's Up movement to score political points when it suited them, but dropped it like a hot potato when it didn't.

The elephant in the room I haven't seen addressed anywhere is that Al Franken was forced to resign for charges that were both fewer and less severe in nature than those leveled against Biden, not to mention that Franken's first (and most damning) accuser had every bit the same credibility problems that Reade does. Yet not only is no one calling for his resignation, barely anyone is willing to discuss it at all.

So...square that circle for me.

The main arguments why this isn’t the same would be that there is a general view now that the Al Franken was a major screw up (as a minimum as a process, maybe as an outcome) and that there were pretty damning (at first glance) photos. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...