The theme of identity in ASOIAF: Sansa

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

True, but that hasn't been much of an obstacle to her marriage to Harry. I suppose when LF made the match, he told the family that Tyrion would be dead, or missing believed dead, very shortly.

Her marriage to Harry is based on the fact she's Alayne tho, sure later LF will do his magic but that's how things stand now.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Vaith said:

It is speculation, but as we have no indication as to how marriages would be annulled in the north, and since there is no spiritual authority... who's to say that someone could just accept her marriage as undone? Power resides where men believe it resides, after all.

Because Sansa got married by the Faith, the thing with she's just unmarried  and that's that is that someone might come and say the exact opposite.

 

6 minutes ago, Vaith said:

And in the Faith of the Seven tradition: there could be a Most Devout or conclave of septons in the Vale who agree to undo the marriage so she can marry Harry Hardyng, per LF's plans.

Until now, the annulments have been entirely the HS territory, no one else's. And the current High Septon is not a pushover.

 

 

 

[frenin]

8 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

and third off by arguing that she is of the Old Gods, not the Seven and as such the marriage in front of the Seven was invalid.

That's not how it works tho... Marriage is marriage, regardless of where are you from. The ceremony has only need to be accepted in Westeros. 

[Springwatch]

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

Her marriage to Harry is based on the fact she's Alayne tho, sure later LF will do his magic but that's how things stand now.

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but wow. LF has prepared a delightful, epic surprise for Harry's family. He paid them money too.

[Vaith]

19 minutes ago, frenin said:

Her marriage to Harry is based on the fact she's Alayne tho, sure later LF will do his magic but that's how things stand now.

He seems to plan on doing his "magic" quite soon:

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and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell.

 

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

Because Sansa got married by the Faith, the thing with she's just unmarried  and that's that is that someone might come and say the exact opposite.

It seems unlikely at the moment that it is within anyone's interest to argue for the validity of her marriage to Tyrion.

23 minutes ago, frenin said:

Until now, the annulments have been entirely the HS territory, no one else's. And the current High Septon is not a pushover.

Again, there is another possibility:

Quote

"Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?"

"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith."

 

[frenin]

10 minutes ago, Vaith said:

He seems to plan on doing his "magic" quite soon:

Sure, but right now, the bride is Alayne Stone.

 

12 minutes ago, Vaith said:

It seems unlikely at the moment that it is within anyone's interest to argue for the validity of her marriage to Tyrion.

We don't know what people may have in mind but that's the danger with not going with legal/accepted ways, the tide  can change suddenly.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Again, there is another possibility:

Or i didn't know about that but what if the HS refuses?? The current one has little to no interest to help and i don't think people would be eager to cross him.

[Mystical]

49 minutes ago, Vaith said:

It seems unlikely at the moment that it is within anyone's interest to argue for the validity of her marriage to Tyrion.

If the HS is anti-Lannister, he might be willing to annul the marriage just because a Lannister is involved.

[Elegant Woes]

@Vaith The Girl in Grey mystery hasn't been resolved with Alys. I mean take a look at the map of the North and the conversation between Melisandre and Mance:

Quote

 

“If your stiff-necked lord commander will allow it. Did your fires show you where to find this girl?”

“I saw water. Deep and blue and still, with a thin coat of ice just forming on it. It seemed to go on and on forever.”

“Long Lake. What else did you see around this girl?”

“Hills. Fields. Trees. A deer, once. Stones. She is staying well away from villages. When she can she rides along the bed of little streams, to throw hunters off her trail.”

He frowned. “That will make it difficult. She was coming north, you said. Was the lake to her east or to her west?”

Melisandre closed her eyes, remembering. “West.”

“She is not coming up the kingsroad, then. Clever girl. There are fewer watchers on the other side, and more cover. And some hidey-holes I have used myself from time—” He broke off at the sound of a warhorn and rose swiftly to his feet.  -Melisandre, A Dance with Dragons

 

GRRM has the map for reason in the books. He wants us to follow along with the story and where everyone is at in the chapters. Jeyne is coming from Stannis camp in Crofter's village, which is located in the wolfswood west of Winterfell, on the west side of the Kingsroad and on the wrong side of Long Lake. Whereas Alys Karstark was coming from Karhold, which is located on the east side of the North, but it's no where near Long lake. This makes neither girl the one Melisandre saw in the flames. The way I see it the grey girl on a dying horse/little sister mystery seeking Jon's help has yet to be solved. 

[Dot Com]

8 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Vaith The Girl in Grey mystery hasn't been resolved with Alys. I mean take a look at the map of the North and the conversation between Melisandre and Mance:

The whole point of Melisandre is that her interpretations are often wrong. There's really no point of Sansa coming north now. The trajectory of her story is learning how to be a "game player," which can't be done in a unified, Stark-dominated north. She's going to take part in the Dance of Dragons 2.0, IMO. 

[chrisdaw]

Arya is the grey girl, it's an endgame vision. The dear - once, gives it away, that's Gendry and their one night stand.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

23 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

their one night stand.

Alright so allow me to put this nicely to you, we don't talk about the abomination here, and I think half the people on this forum are going to get triggered if you consider something from the 8th abomination canon.

[chrisdaw]

10 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Alright so allow me to put this nicely to you, we don't talk about the abomination here, and I think half the people on this forum are going to get triggered if you consider something from the 8th abomination canon.

April 8, 2016.

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So, Arya + Gendry, to have sex, not marriage or anything.

 

[a black swan]

11 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Vaith The Girl in Grey mystery hasn't been resolved with Alys. I mean take a look at the map of the North and the conversation between Melisandre and Mance:

GRRM has the map for reason in the books. He wants us to follow along with the story and where everyone is at in the chapters. Jeyne is coming from Stannis camp in Crofter's village, which is located in the wolfswood west of Winterfell, on the west side of the Kingsroad and on the wrong side of Long Lake. Whereas Alys Karstark was coming from Karhold, which is located on the east side of the North, but it's no where near Long lake. This makes neither girl the one Melisandre saw in the flames. The way I see it the grey girl on a dying horse/little sister mystery seeking Jon's help has yet to be solved. 

It's Arya. 

Like you pointed out in the map, Long Lake doesn't fit. The further description given to Mance, Mel points to the girl avoiding villages, roads...etc. Where was Alys found? Near a village close to the King's Road. In Mel's vision, the area she describes is clearly in the south where winter is just starting to take hold. The lake she sees the girl travelling by has to be the God's Eye and Arya has the strongest connection to it above all the possible contenders. 

Plus don't forget Arya prays for a Red priest to find her in the their flames. A few books later... Mel does. 

If it really is Arya, it just makes you wonder what the hell she is (running to or from) and how she got in that position/place in the first place? 

[Elegant Woes]

@a black swan I am not gonna deny it certainly could be Arya but on a thematic level Sansa makes more sense. Sansa is the only Stark POV that doesn't appear in ADWD and I feel that GRRM might have done that on purpose for us not to think of her as the sister going towards Jon. But then, Jon and the reader might also not think Sansa will. 

Quote

“Let me help.”

“You have. You brought me Tormund.”

“I can do more.”

Why not? thought Jon. They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her. -Jon, ADWD

I am not saying he's thinking or talking of Sansa, but the readers will think of Sansa with that statement because mainly characters see her that way (Cersei, Lady Olenna, Jaime, Tyrion and even her siblings to some level). No one sees her taking any action and thinks she is a silly, stupid girl. But Mance makes the comment on the girl being clever. Who has been called clever? Sansa.

Quote

“My Jonquil’s a clever girl, isn’t she?”

“Joffrey and his mother say I’m stupid.”

“Let them. You’re safer that way, sweetling.” - Sansa IV, ACoK

And while Sansa does complicate the Princess in the Tower archetype she has yet to fully deconstruct it. And what is the best way to deconstruct this archetype? By venturing into the wilderness just like Rapunzel did. Furthermore Sansa being the Girl in Grey also speaks to Sansa's biggest storyline in her arc. Shedding the southern lady-like demeanor and getting in touch with her wilder and Northern side but still retaining her more feminine qualities. If Sansa is the Girl in Grey she will shed that last bit of southern lady and reveal who she always was meant to be: a she-wolf of Winterfell. Plus if Sansa is the Girl in Grey she will also walk into the footsteps of Arya and Bran. So far in the Vale Sansa has walked into the footsteps of her parents and Jon: having a second father figure (littlefinger/Jon Arryn) and befriending a Baratheon (Robert/Mya) in the Vale, assuming the role of Lady of a great keep at a young age (the vale/riverrun) while taking care of a Tully boy (Edmure/little Robert), a bastard with brown hair being taken under the wing by an uncle (Ned/Littlefinger) who is married to a Tully woman (Sansa identity as Alayne Stone is the biggest hint towards R+L=J but this is not the post to go in depth on). If Sansa is the Girl in Grey she will walk into the footsteps of Arya (by being on the run) and Bran (by going further into the North she will interact with the magical storyline of ASOIAF). 

Overall, the point I am trying to make is that Sansa being the Girl in Grey is important to her arc. This post goes in depth just how essential it is to her narrative. I highly recommend you to read it. I think as an Arya fan you will appreciate it because Sansa being the Girl in Grey could play a part in Sansa getting closer with Arya.

[Vaith]

21 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Vaith The Girl in Grey mystery hasn't been resolved with Alys. I mean take a look at the map of the North and the conversation between Melisandre and Mance:

GRRM has the map for reason in the books. He wants us to follow along with the story and where everyone is at in the chapters. Jeyne is coming from Stannis camp in Crofter's village, which is located in the wolfswood west of Winterfell, on the west side of the Kingsroad and on the wrong side of Long Lake. Whereas Alys Karstark was coming from Karhold, which is located on the east side of the North, but it's no where near Long lake. This makes neither girl the one Melisandre saw in the flames. The way I see it the grey girl on a dying horse/little sister mystery seeking Jon's help has yet to be solved. 

Sansa riding along Long Lake early in the Winds of Winter seems unlikely. If she got a ship from the Vale, she'd likely go to Eastwatch, and going to Long Lake from there would be stranger still than a detour from Karhold. She could get a ship to White Harbor, but I find it pretty unlikely that Sansa would be riding across the entire North during early TWOW.

[a black swan]

14 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@a black swan I am not gonna deny it certainly could be Arya but on a thematic level Sansa makes more sense. Sansa is the only Stark POV that doesn't appear in ADWD and I feel that GRRM might have done that on purpose for us not to think of her as the sister going towards Jon. But then, Jon and the reader might also not think Sansa will. 

I am not saying he's thinking or talking of Sansa, but the readers will think of Sansa with that statement because mainly characters see her that way (Cersei, Lady Olenna, Jaime, Tyrion and even her siblings to some level). No one sees her taking any action and thinks she is a silly, stupid girl. But Mance makes the comment on the girl being clever. Who has been called clever? Sansa.

And while Sansa does complicate the Princess in the Tower archetype she has yet to fully deconstruct it. And what is the best way to deconstruct this archetype? By venturing into the wilderness just like Rapunzel did. Furthermore Sansa being the Girl in Grey also speaks to Sansa's biggest storyline in her arc. Shedding the southern lady-like demeanor and getting in touch with her wilder and Northern side but still retaining her more feminine qualities. If Sansa is the Girl in Grey she will shed that last bit of southern lady and reveal who she always was meant to be: a she-wolf of Winterfell. Plus if Sansa is the Girl in Grey she will also walk into the footsteps of Arya and Bran. So far in the Vale Sansa has walked into the footsteps of her parents and Jon: having a second father figure (littlefinger/Jon Arryn) and befriending a Baratheon (Robert/Mya) in the Vale, assuming the role of Lady of a great keep at a young age (the vale/riverrun) while taking care of a Tully boy (Edmure/little Robert), a bastard with brown hair being taken under the wing by an uncle (Ned/Littlefinger) who is married to a Tully woman (Sansa identity as Alayne Stone is the biggest hint towards R+L=J but this is not the post to go in depth on). If Sansa is the Girl in Grey she will walk into the footsteps of Arya (by being on the run) and Bran (by going further into the North she will interact with the magical storyline of ASOIAF). 

Overall, the point I am trying to make is that Sansa being the Girl in Grey is important to her arc. This post goes in depth just how essential it is to her narrative. I highly recommend you to read it. I think as an Arya fan you will appreciate it because Sansa being the Girl in Grey could play a part in Sansa getting closer with Arya.

Could you explain, having read your longer tumblr post, how winter is still coming when Long Lake is already deeply frozen over by ADWD? The lake in Mel's vision is not. You said you read Mel's POV chapter, do you recall the line where she admits not knowing where the grey girl is? She omits that lack of knowledge to Jon & Mance. Mel also admits she doesn't know *when* the vision takes place. (Lyanna could also be a possible grey girl in the vision) Why would you, as the reader with full access to POVs, believe Mel when she tells Jon & Mance that the girl is heading North when the evidence suggests otherwise? 

As per Mance & Mel's discussion:

“Did your fires show you where to find this girl?”

"I saw water. Deep and blue and still, with a thin coat of ice just forming on it. It seemed to go on and on forever.” (This is the God's Eye lake just as Winter begins to take hold.)

 

“Hills. Fields. Trees. A deer, once. Stones. She is staying well away from villages. When she can she rides along the bed of little streams, to throw hunters off her trail.”

He frowned. “That will make it difficult. She was coming north, you said. Was the lake to her east or to her west?”

Melisandre closed her eyes, remembering. “West.” (If it is the God's Eye, the grey girl is actuly travelling South if the lake is to her west.)

“She is not coming up the kingsroad, then. Clever girl. There are fewer watchers on the other side, and more cover. And some hidey-holes I have used myself from time—”

 

How would Sansa know how to survive in the wilderness like this? And in the North/Winter no less! Jeyne is literally losing parts of her face and she has more help/shorter trip than this mysterious grey girl. Arya literally spends a huge chunk of her early story learning all the things that would help her navigate a journey like this alone. Clever.

Isn't Sansa already "on the run" immediately post-Joffery's death?

And about Sansa not having a POV in ADWD... doesn't George discuss his reasoning for how he split AFFC and ADWD? I don't agree with your assumption on why he left her out.

[Wolf's Bane]

On 4/24/2020 at 9:53 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is not really true. She actually hasn't become any darker really. That's one of the things that is great about her is that she grows without becoming darker. She is still pretty innocent, especially in comparison to her siblings (minus possibly Rickon) not to mention some of the other characters. 

I don't think she was ever ignorant, she was just a little girl & was plenty smart for her age. She was dreamy, naive, a little flighty but not ignorant. 

She is slow-poisoning SweetRobin and helping Petyr Baelish carry out his deceptive plot.  She witnessed and stayed silent the killing of Lady Arryn.  She's gone darker to me.  Bran has gone darker too but that has to be balanced with his mission to do good.  For Sansa it is only about serving Sansa. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

She is slow-poisoning SweetRobin and helping Petyr Baelish carry out his deceptive plot.  She witnessed and stayed silent the killing of Lady Arryn.  She's gone darker to me.  Bran has gone darker too but that has to be balanced with his mission to do good.  For Sansa it is only about serving Sansa. 

Her very survival is dependent upon cooperating with Petyr so that can hardly be proof of her growing darker. 

I think her poisoning Sweet Robin is arguable to say the least but if she is, she doesn't seem to be aware of it. 

She witnessed & stayed silent about Petyr defending her own life by killing Lady Arryn. Why would she be expected to spill the beans on that & risk not being believed & suffering consequences?

 

[Wolf's Bane]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Her very survival is dependent upon cooperating with Petyr so that can hardly be proof of her growing darker. 

I think her poisoning Sweet Robin is arguable to say the least but if she is, she doesn't seem to be aware of it. 

She witnessed & stayed silent about Petyr defending her own life by killing Lady Arryn. Why would she be expected to spill the beans on that & risk not being believed & suffering consequences?

 

Hello there.  Well, for one, it is sometimes a moral act to risk oneself to help another. 

[Vaith]

32 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

She is slow-poisoning SweetRobin and helping Petyr Baelish carry out his deceptive plot.  She witnessed and stayed silent the killing of Lady Arryn.  She's gone darker to me.  Bran has gone darker too but that has to be balanced with his mission to do good.  For Sansa it is only about serving Sansa. 

The best decision was to stay quiet about Lysa.

With SR, her actions towards him are definitely "dark"... but at this point in the story, every main character is going dark, in a sort of hero's temptation thing. It's not only Bran warging Hodor, but also Arya ruthlessly killing people, Dany embracing Fire & Blood, and whatever might happen after Jon's "demise"...

[winter daughter]

1 hour ago, Wolf's Bane said:

She is slow-poisoning SweetRobin and helping Petyr Baelish carry out his deceptive plot. 

There is nothing in the text to suggest that she is deliberately poisoning him to help LF, her sample chapter makes it cear:

He does have pretty hair. If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely. That much she will love about him.

Lord Robert’s mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.

1 hour ago, Wolf's Bane said:

She witnessed and stayed silent the killing of Lady Arryn.

Lysa wrongly accused her of seducing her husband and tried to push her out of the MD and LF saved her by putting his own life in danger. So it's not like she stayed silent about murder of an innocent person.

1 hour ago, Wolf's Bane said:

For Sansa it is only about serving Sansa. 

And yet she saved Dantos and the peasant woman from Joff risking his bloody punishments so this assessment of her character is not true and fair.