Will tyrion have a dark fate?

[King Adrian Storm]

I have been a big fan of Tyrion's arc so far. In my opinion his arc is all about becoming the monster that everyone believes him to be. It's fascinating to me. Although I love Tyrion I don't think he should be let off easy, and be given such a happy ending, like becoming hand of the king or lord of Casterly Rock. He IS a kinslayer.  WIth Adwd throwing him into a rabbit hole of depression, I want him to do something about it. I hope he becomes like a devil on Dany's shoulder. I am all for a mad Tyrion bringing destruction back to Westeros with 3 dragons.

I believe Tyrion's arc is supposed to mirror Jaime's, with Tyrion becoming bad, and Jamie becoming good. I don't want Tyrion to pull a 360 and go from good guy to bad guy, then back to good guy again. This doesn't mean I want Tyrion to be a complete evil monster. He can still have a little redemption in his character. Maybe he chooses to forgive Jamie in the end.

Tyrion's fate is hard to predict, like I said I don't want him to get off without any consequences. My theory is at the end, when there is a new king or queen, they decide to out out his tongue and exile him to essos. Grrm is the king of taking the one thing that means the most to his characters. What is more important to Tyrion than his tongue? He's talked his way around death dozens of times. Him losing his tongue would be poetic to me. Plus the fact how in almost every book some one threatens to cut out his tongue.

What do you think Tyrion's fate will be?

[Vaith]

I do see Tyrion redeeming himself somewhat towards the end of the story, after all the downright awful things that he's done.

However, in my opinion it may have to be a redemption that can only be fully earned in death. 

Tyrion being Lord of Casterly Rock isn't impossible, but very improbable -- the kinslaying of his own father should tarnish his name in the west unless there is a very good reason for people to change their public perception of him.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, King Adrian Storm said:

I have been a big fan of Tyrion's arc so far. In my opinion his arc is all about becoming the monster that everyone believes him to be. It's fascinating to me. Although I love Tyrion I don't think he should be let off easy, and be given such a happy ending, like becoming hand of the king or lord of Casterly Rock. He IS a kinslayer.  WIth Adwd throwing him into a rabbit hole of depression, I want him to do something about it. I hope he becomes like a devil on Dany's shoulder. I am all for a mad Tyrion bringing destruction back to Westeros with 3 dragons.

I believe Tyrion's arc is supposed to mirror Jaime's, with Tyrion becoming bad, and Jamie becoming good. I don't want Tyrion to pull a 360 and go from good guy to bad guy, then back to good guy again. This doesn't mean I want Tyrion to be a complete evil monster. He can still have a little redemption in his character. Maybe he chooses to forgive Jamie in the end.

Tyrion's fate is hard to predict, like I said I don't want him to get off without any consequences. My theory is at the end, when there is a new king or queen, they decide to out out his tongue and exile him to essos. Grrm is the king of taking the one thing that means the most to his characters. What is more important to Tyrion than his tongue? He's talked his way around death dozens of times. Him losing his tongue would be poetic to me. Plus the fact how in almost every book some one threatens to cut out his tongue.

What do you think Tyrion's fate will be?

 

44 minutes ago, Vaith said:

I do see Tyrion redeeming himself somewhat towards the end of the story, after all the downright awful things that he's done.

However, in my opinion it may have to be a redemption that can only be fully earned in death. 

I am definitely on board with Tyrion and Jaime switching places by the end of the series, though I don't think Jaime will or should ever be considered "good" in the eyes of most Westerosi. Ideally, he could die a hero by sacrificing his life in battle with the Others like Stannis and several Northern characters are clearly meant to do. 

For the record, I'm one of the few people who doesn't want Jaime to kill Cersei. I want Tyrion to get his revenge on her, partly because Cersei fears Tyrion so much and it's all being built up in her POV chapters. Most readers will look at that and assume "Well, it's too easy if Tyrion kills her" but I disagree. I see that and I think it would be best if Tyrion DOES kill Cersei. It's a subversion of expectation, which GRRM is wont to do, and it's not a subversion that's stupid or out of character or completely random (ahem ahem). Tyrion killing Cersei, and maybe dying as well in the process, would be a truly bittersweet way for him to go out as a bad guy while still doing a good thing (killing a mad monarch like Jaime did). 

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 hours ago, Vaith said:

redemption that can only be fully earned in death. 

What is with you people. I've heard about everyone about ,,redemption ca be only earned in death". Tyrion hasn't done even near enough nasty shit for that. His worst act is strangling Shae, which was something that while pretty nasty was don purely in the heat of the moment, after she had betrayed him, upon discovering her in his father's bed. Plus after that he suffered for a long time from very nasty depression, which in case you didn't know can make people do really nasty shit

4 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

have been a big fan of Tyrion's arc so far. In my opinion his arc is all about becoming the monster that everyone believes him to be. It's fascinating to me. Although I love Tyrion I don't think he should be let off easy, and be given such a happy ending, like becoming hand of the king or lord of Casterly Rock. He IS a kinslayer.  WIth Adwd throwing him into a rabbit hole of depression, I want him to do something about it. I hope he becomes like a devil on Dany's shoulder. I am all for a mad Tyrion bringing destruction back to Westeros with 3 dragons.

I believe Tyrion's arc is supposed to mirror Jaime's, with Tyrion becoming bad, and Jamie becoming good. I don't want Tyrion to pull a 360 and go from good guy to bad guy, then back to good guy again. This doesn't mean I want Tyrion to be a complete evil monster. He can still have a little redemption in his character. Maybe he chooses to forgive Jamie in the end.

Tyrion's fate is hard to predict, like I said I don't want him to get off without any consequences. My theory is at the end, when there is a new king or queen, they decide to out out his tongue and exile him to essos. Grrm is the king of taking the one thing that means the most to his characters. What is more important to Tyrion than his tongue? He's talked his way around death dozens of times. Him losing his tongue would be poetic to me. Plus the fact how in almost every book some one threatens to cut out his tongue.

What do you think Tyrion's fate will be?

I think he's at a bit of a crossroad. In late ADWD Tyrion seems to slowly return to his former positive self, but it remains to be seen what happens when he meets Dany. Will he succumb to his desire for vengeance leading both him and Dany down a dark path, or will he use her in order to find a new purpose in life? It remains to be seen.

[Vaith]

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

What is with you people. I've heard about everyone about ,,redemption ca be only earned in death". Tyrion hasn't done even near enough nasty shit for that. His worst act is strangling Shae, which was something that while pretty nasty was don purely in the heat of the moment, after she had betrayed him, upon discovering her in his father's bed. Plus after that he suffered for a long time from very nasty depression, which in case you didn't know can make people do really nasty shit

I've suffered from depression myself, and I've had no desire to use the sexual services of a child slave like he does in ADWD. Cersei probably has a host of undiagnosed psychological issues but I don't see people leaping to defend her because of them.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Cersei probably has a host of undiagnosed psychological issues but I don't see people leaping to defend her because of them.

Nah mate, Cersei suffers from intense narcissism and paranoia, plus a good amount of stupid. I did kinda use depression as a blanket term however, sorry. One should also probably add PTSD, nihilism, misanthropy and self-loathing.

[King Adrian Storm]

7 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

I am definitely on board with Tyrion and Jaime switching places by the end of the series, though I don't think Jaime will or should ever be considered "good" in the eyes of most Westerosi. Ideally, he could die a hero by sacrificing his life in battle with the Others like Stannis and several Northern characters are clearly meant to do. 

For the record, I'm one of the few people who doesn't want Jaime to kill Cersei. I want Tyrion to get his revenge on her, partly because Cersei fears Tyrion so much and it's all being built up in her POV chapters. Most readers will look at that and assume "Well, it's too easy if Tyrion kills her" but I disagree. I see that and I think it would be best if Tyrion DOES kill Cersei. It's a subversion of expectation, which GRRM is wont to do, and it's not a subversion that's stupid or out of character or completely random (ahem ahem). Tyrion killing Cersei, and maybe dying as well in the process, would be a truly bittersweet way for him to go out as a bad guy while still doing a good thing (killing a mad monarch like Jaime did). 

 

I love the idea of Tyrion killing Cersei. You’re right about it not being the obvious choice. Whenever people discuss it they immediately pass off Tyrion and assume it’s Jaime. 
 

cersei deserves to go out in the worst way possible, and if Tyrion the person she fears the most is the one to kill her it’d be amazing.

[Vaith]

7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Nah mate, Cersei suffers from intense narcissism and paranoia, plus a good amount of stupid. I did kinda use depression as a blanket term however, sorry. One should also probably add PTSD, nihilism, misanthropy and self-loathing.

If we're going to say paranoia, then paranoid personality disorder is a modern diagnosis and mental illness. The criteria is: suspecting without sufficient basis that others are harming, exploiting, or deceiving them (yep), is preoccupied by unjustified doubts about the trustworthiness of friends or associates (yep), is reluctant to confess in others because of the worry that information will be used maliciously against them (yep), reads hidden threatening messages into benign remarks (yep), persistently bears grudges (yep), perceives attack on his or her character's reputation that are not apparent to others and is quick to react angrily or to counterattack (yep), and has recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding fidelity of a sexual partner. (yep)

And you could make the case for generalised anxiety disorder and alcohol use disorder. In any case Cersei possibly having mental health issues does not excuse her actions, and neither is Tyrion. I want to stay on-topic so that is why I don't think his problems excuse everything he does in ADWD and why I think death is likely.

[Lady Topspin]

11 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

I have been a big fan of Tyrion's arc so far. In my opinion his arc is all about becoming the monster that everyone believes him to be. It's fascinating to me. Although I love Tyrion I don't think he should be let off easy, and be given such a happy ending, like becoming hand of the king or lord of Casterly Rock. He IS a kinslayer.  WIth Adwd throwing him into a rabbit hole of depression, I want him to do something about it. I hope he becomes like a devil on Dany's shoulder. I am all for a mad Tyrion bringing destruction back to Westeros with 3 dragons.

I believe Tyrion's arc is supposed to mirror Jaime's, with Tyrion becoming bad, and Jamie becoming good. I don't want Tyrion to pull a 360 and go from good guy to bad guy, then back to good guy again. This doesn't mean I want Tyrion to be a complete evil monster. He can still have a little redemption in his character. Maybe he chooses to forgive Jamie in the end.

Tyrion's fate is hard to predict, like I said I don't want him to get off without any consequences. My theory is at the end, when there is a new king or queen, they decide to out out his tongue and exile him to essos. Grrm is the king of taking the one thing that means the most to his characters. What is more important to Tyrion than his tongue? He's talked his way around death dozens of times. Him losing his tongue would be poetic to me. Plus the fact how in almost every book some one threatens to cut out his tongue.

What do you think Tyrion's fate will be?

Well no.  That is not what I am hoping for our vertically challenged friend.  I have been a big fan of Daenerys and it is my hope that she will be loyally served by Tyrion. 

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

What is with you people. I've heard about everyone about ,,redemption ca be only earned in death". Tyrion hasn't done even near enough nasty shit for that. His worst act is strangling Shae, which was something that while pretty nasty was don purely in the heat of the moment, after she had betrayed him, upon discovering her in his father's bed. Plus after that he suffered for a long time from very nasty depression, which in case you didn't know can make people do really nasty shit

We really, really don’t see eye to eye on this. Shae owed Tyrion nothing. But more than that, Tyrion knows what his father and sister are like. He knows Shae has no power whatsoever. Therefore he knows it would have been very easy for Tywin and/or Cersei to force Shae to testify against him. As to finding her in his father’s bed, again, Shae has no power and Tyrion is locked up. Her first instinct would - and should - be survival. Oh, and did I say she owed Tyrion nothing? 

The other thing is, the way the scene plays out doesn’t really scream “crime of passion” to me.

ASoS, Tyrion XI

“My lady Shae,” Tyrion said softly. “All the time I sat in the black cell waiting to die, I kept remembering how beautiful you were. In silk or roughspun or nothing at all . . . ”
“M’lord will be back soon. You should go, or . . . did you come to take me away?”
“Did you ever like it?” He cupped her cheek, remembering all the times he had done this before. All the times he’d slid his hands around her waist, squeezed her small firm breasts, stroked her short dark hair, touched her lips, her cheeks, her ears. All the times he had opened her with a finger to probe her secret sweetness and make her moan. “Did you ever like my touch?”
“More than anything,” she said, “my giant of Lannister.”
That was the worst thing you could have said, sweetling.
Tyrion slid a hand under his father’s chain, and twisted. The links tightened, digging into her neck. “For hands of gold are always cold, but a woman’s hands are warm,” he said. He gave cold hands another twist as the warm ones beat away his tears.”

 

[Nagini's Neville]

Even so it might not always appear that way in a lot of my posts, I've noticed that I actually really, really love Tyrion and am very invested in his story. That is exactly why I love to hate him as well. Honestly, no one upsets me as much as him. lol

I guess it all has to do with the fact, that I expected a lot from a guy with a "I have a heart for cripples, bastards and broken things" mantra

The interesting thing for me is, that Tyrion is a villain with a lot of empathy, that doesn't stop him from doing evil and selfish deeds, most of the time however he knows what he is doing is wrong, even though he is often lying to himself about it.

Like you have said, I also believe Tyrion's story is kinda about self-fulfilling prophecy. They told him, that he is a monster for so long until he became one.

I think it would be cool for Tyrion's arc to become even darker and more vengeful.

10 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

I hope he becomes like a devil on Dany's shoulder.

I think that would be cool as well

11 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

I am all for a mad Tyrion bringing destruction back to Westeros with 3 dragons.

And something like this  but better just being on Dany's side and whispering in her ear. I doubt Dany will bring full on destruction to Westeros right in the beginning. 

I would want Tyrion to become even darker and more and more like Tywin. But I don't think he could ever fully become like Tywin, because in the end Tyrion will never be able to completely get rid of his empathy- something that Tywin never had much of in the first place.

I want Tyrion to have a moment of shock, were he realizes, that he has become just like his father preferably in interactions with others. I want his to realize, that hurting all those ppl only makes him feel even more broken and doesn't give him the release he needs.

I want him to realize, that in the end nobody forced him to do what he did, to embrace it and accept his responsibility. This is the only way he can heal and start his way to redemption. 

I want him to never find romantic love, since he has never learned how to love someone, but to understand, that he can serve others the best by using his political talents and wits and that he can really make a difference, when it comes to the war with the others.

Also IMO Tyrion constantly floats between being completely high on his own brilliance and believing he is morally superior in an very self-centered almost  narcissistic fashion at times or complete self-loathing and self-hatred. That he hates himself so much has also a lot to do with his incredibly high expectations of himself and others IMO, He still wants to be tall and strong like a knight.

I would wish that he could find balance in that regard, that he can find self acceptance and some kind of forgiveness for himself and self-love.

Kind of wish, that he could have a moment with Sansa like she had with the Hound ("he was no true knight"), where she tells him, that he is kind. And that he truly could appreciate what that actually means and that this would be enough and that it is actually great to be kind and be capable of kindness and you don't have to be some "prince" to be constantly worshiped, with power over and beautiful girls "throwing themselves at him".

So I would want him to get a position in politics and do some good work there, but only after self-awareness and some redemption.

I wouldn't want him to loose his tongue, that would be worse that death for him and utter torture. IMO he has had enough physical loses- so no more of that please

 

[Nagini's Neville]

45 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

We really, really don’t see eye to eye on this. Shae owed Tyrion nothing. But more than that, Tyrion knows what his father and sister are like. He knows Shae has no power whatsoever. Therefore he knows it would have been very easy for Tywin and/or Cersei to force Shae to testify against him. As to finding her in his father’s bed, again, Shae has no power and Tyrion is locked up. Her first instinct would - and should - be survival. Oh, and did I say she owed Tyrion nothing? 

The other thing is, the way the scene plays out doesn’t really scream “crime of passion” to me.

ASoS, Tyrion XI

“My lady Shae,” Tyrion said softly. “All the time I sat in the black cell waiting to die, I kept remembering how beautiful you were. In silk or roughspun or nothing at all . . . ”
“M’lord will be back soon. You should go, or . . . did you come to take me away?”
“Did you ever like it?” He cupped her cheek, remembering all the times he had done this before. All the times he’d slid his hands around her waist, squeezed her small firm breasts, stroked her short dark hair, touched her lips, her cheeks, her ears. All the times he had opened her with a finger to probe her secret sweetness and make her moan. “Did you ever like my touch?”
“More than anything,” she said, “my giant of Lannister.”
That was the worst thing you could have said, sweetling.
Tyrion slid a hand under his father’s chain, and twisted. The links tightened, digging into her neck. “For hands of gold are always cold, but a woman’s hands are warm,” he said. He gave cold hands another twist as the warm ones beat away his tears.”

 

Also why is it constantly overlooked, that Tyrion endangered her life through employing her. And left her in the dark about it? How is that okay? Tyrion knew everything there was to know about Shae, while Tyrion didn't tell her something very monumental.

She had a right to know that, so she could decide for herself.

I don't even know, if you could say, she truly had a choice to become his whore either, since she was just "taken" from another man and Tyrion is a High Lord after all.

[Elegant Woes]

I definitely can see Tyrion getting darker and darker to the point there is barely a path of return for him. The only thing that could make him snap out of his current state is the death of the only person he ever truly loved: Jaime. Once that happens he could try to make amends but I don't think it will be enough to make up for his past transgressions. All the lies, schemes, propping up the Lannister regime and his future association with Dany, who will most likely be an antagonist, will make Tyrion face his third and last trail, and unlike the previous ones he will not be spared this time. Third time is the charm. 

[King Adrian Storm]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I want Tyrion to have a moment of shock, were he realizes, that he has become just like his father preferably in interactions with others. I want his to realize, that hurting all those ppl only makes him feel even more broken and doesn't give him the release he needs.

I want him to realize, that in the end nobody forced him to do what he did, to embrace it and accept his responsibility. This is the only way he can heal and start his way to redemption. 

Stongly agree. In my mind I want there to be a scene where Tyrion is going to war against Jaime.  He is standing there watching over the battle. He wants Jaime to be killed, then the moment comes where one of his men go after Jaime, and he calls it off at the last second. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Tyrion may have some low points but I dont think he will face comparable consequences to his crimes because I think GRRM has always favored him with a nice ending. From the SSM:

"Tyrion is his favorite character and, despite the "no regrets" sentiments he expressed at the previous panel, he admitted that he feels hesitation over how to write him - George feels conflict between not wanting to make the guy seem like a dick because he likes Tyrion and portraying someone who has been through what Tyrion has been through, along with all the hurt, confusion, and betrayal that comes along with."

I think think he might regret writing him too dark for the happy-ish ending he has in store for him. 

[King17]

Shae did falsely testify against him. She deserves no sympathy and Tyrion killing her is a perfectly understandable situation. 

2 tywin treated Tyrion like crap all his life plenty of people would've done what Tyrion did. 

3 the bed slave thing was that terrible yes. Terrible by 7 kingdoms standards no not so much. 

Everyone says Tyrion is evil and all that but plenty of characters have done worse.

 

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Tyrion may have some low points but I dont think he will face comparable consequences to his crimes because I think GRRM has always favored him with a nice ending. From the SSM:

"Tyrion is his favorite character and, despite the "no regrets" sentiments he expressed at the previous panel, he admitted that he feels hesitation over how to write him - George feels conflict between not wanting to make the guy seem like a dick because he likes Tyrion and portraying someone who has been through what Tyrion has been through, along with all the hurt, confusion, and betrayal that comes along with."

I think think he might regret writing him too dark for the happy-ish ending he has in store for him. 

He said that in Feb 2006. Given Tyrion’s story in Dance, it seems Martin decided, correctly IMO, to stick to the latter and try to not let his liking of the character interfere too much. 

[Vaith]

22 minutes ago, King17 said:

Shae did falsely testify against him. She deserves no sympathy and Tyrion killing her is a perfectly understandable situation. 

2 tywin treated Tyrion like crap all his life plenty of people would've done what Tyrion did. 

3 the bed slave thing was that terrible yes. Terrible by 7 kingdoms standards no not so much. 

Everyone says Tyrion is evil and all that but plenty of characters have done worse.

 

1. Shae was a commoner, and after Tyrion was locked up, her sole employer was the court at the Red Keep where Tywin and Cersei obviously want a guilty verdict. If not actually being threatened in the case that she deviated from the Lannister's plans, she would feel immensely pressured too. Even a high noble would feel pressure in such a situation, and Shae's at the bottom of the totem pole.

Not to mention that Tyrion was endangering her in the first place by bringing her to King's Landing. Alayaya was tied to a post and whipped after Tywin thought she was Tyrion's concubine. Frankly I'd fully understand her decision anyway, but it's almost certain there was coercion, and she did not deserve such a violent death at Tyrion's hands.

2. No disagreement. Tywin sucks. Still, as far as in-universe reputation goes it's going to be a stain on his chances at ever possibly being Lord of Casterly Rock.

3. Are we forgetting just how abhorred slavery is in the Seven Kingdoms?

[Rose of Red Lake]

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

He said that in Feb 2006. Given Tyrion’s story in Dance, it seems Martin decided, correctly IMO, to stick to the latter and try to not let his liking of the character interfere too much. 

It’s revealing something. He doesn’t want Tyrion to seem like a dick (??) but is trying to give him logical behaviors of a person who is hurting. I think he has too much sympathy for him and may even see his transgressions as a response to being “justifiably” wronged, rather than something Tyrion did to himself. “Hurt, confusion, betrayal” sounds like Tyrion is a victim. However Tyrion has a lot in common with the worst incels, and not a lot of folks will have sympathy for him on the same level as the author. If I recall he said he’s always known Tyrion’s ending. I doubt it’s changing despite this darker turn. 

[Nagini's Neville]

13 minutes ago, Vaith said:

and she did not deserve such a violent death at Tyrion's hands.

Especially because he didn't gain anything because of it. He just did it for revenge and because he could.