Would The Hound Have Raped Sansa?

[TheNightMagician]

I just finished A Storm of Swords for the first time and my mind is lingering on what Sandor told Arya about her sister:

"I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf."

 

Do you think he would have done it? Or was he just bluffing and trying to irritate Arya into killing him?

[M.Alhazred]

Who knows with The Hound. That may have been his original intent.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

No, the Hound is many thing, but not a rapey monster, that's Gregor business. He also seems to talk quite a lot out of his ass.

[Prince of the North]

On 4/23/2020 at 9:36 PM, TheNightMagician said:

I just finished A Storm of Swords for the first time and my mind is lingering on what Sandor told Arya about her sister:

"I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf."

 

Do you think he would have done it? Or was he just bluffing and trying to irritate Arya into killing him?

I think he (the Hound) was quite sick from infection, afraid he was going to die from the infection, feeling sorry for himself, and very much trying to goad Arya into giving him a quick death.

[Nagini's Neville]

The Hound is a big asshole and says a lot of horrible, threatening shit. His behavior towards Sansa and Arya is definitely verbally abusive and very toxic at times. He is also no pov, so in the end we can't be sure what's in his head.

I find it interesting however, that people often bring up, that he wanted to rape Sansa, but nobody seems to be worried, that he wanted to kill her, even though there is more textual evidence for that possible intent. He threatened her life three times in total, two times on their last meeting and even held a dagger to her throat. And in his last words to Arya he says, he should have "ripped her heart out".

He also constantly threatens all kinds of violence on Arya. But never ends up physically harming either of them.

IMO Sandor is just a very messed up, traumatized guy, that has learned how to use and trust violence as a way of communication and to get what he wants more than anything else. He just uses it to get Sansa and Arya to comply basically, because he doesn't trust them to do it otherwise. So I don't think he really wanted to hurt or kill either one.

I don't think Sandor is lying to Arya, when he is about to die. He doesn't lie, if he doesn't have to. At the beginning of that scene he says " “Don’t lie,” he growled. “I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse."  It is a confession IMO, truth is he doesn't really have to lie to give Arya reasons to want to kill him, the truth is bad enough. 

The words he choses are definitely very fucked up and might maybe be connected to Sandor's attitude/feelings towards Sansa, but if you read carefully what he actually says IMO he doesn't say at all, that he should have raped her, like he does in the abomination (and I agree I think there it was supposed to be a lie). But in the books, as I read it, it's just an a very messed up expression of deep regret, that he didn't just take Sansa out of KL, but instead left her to the awful fate of being married to Tyrion. (remember, he absolutely hates Tyrion)

His eyes opened. “You remember where the heart is?” he asked in a hoarse whisper. As still as stone she stood. “I … I was only …” “Don’t lie,” he growled. “I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it.” When Arya did not move, he said, “I killed your butcher’s boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after.” He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. “And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it.

Everything Up until here is the truth as we know

I meant to take her too.

Here a lot of ppl think he means "I meant to rape her", but IMO he is talking about taking her out of KL. Since his word that night indicate, that's what he wanted to do (“Where will you go?” “Away from here. Away from the fires. Go out the Iron Gate, I suppose. North somewhere, anywhere.” “I could keep you safe,” he rasped. “They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them.” He can't keep her save, if she is not coming with his after all)

 I should have. He should have taken her with him.

I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.”  Here I think it's kinda important to focus on the the before. He is regretting, that he just left her there. He is expressing that regret through a very messed up and gross exaggeration. But he basically says, he should have done anything else (even something extremely horrible to her,like rape and kill her, which IMO he would never do) before just doing, what he actually ended up doing- just leaving her there (for Tyrion to marry and rape)

It's like saying, I rather jump off a bridge before taking that class again. 

 

The official awoiaf app it says: "he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city. Her fear of him- as well as her song- make him leave without her."

 

And congratulations for finishing Storm!!! 

I hope you liked it! It's many people's favorite.

[John Suburbs]

On 4/23/2020 at 10:36 PM, TheNightMagician said:

I just finished A Storm of Swords for the first time and my mind is lingering on what Sandor told Arya about her sister:

"I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf."

 

Do you think he would have done it? Or was he just bluffing and trying to irritate Arya into killing him?

I think he was saying anything to goad Arya into killing him, like the way he brought up Mycah and even mispronounced his name.

But Arya does not kill him, even though she was thinking about doing it just a short while before. So the more pertinent question on my mind is why? He was on her list, after all? Did she spare him because she felt he should be removed from her list, maybe because he at least kept her alive and tried to get her back to her family, not as a hostage for ransom but still for his own personal motivations?

Or did she leave him as punishment for his wrongs? Basically letting him suffer a long, lingering death instead of the mercy he begged for.

I tend to lean toward the latter, but I have encountered more than a few posters who say letting him live was an act of kindness on her part.

[Nagini's Neville]

12 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Or did she leave him as punishment for his wrongs? Basically letting him suffer a long, lingering death instead of the mercy he begged for.

I tend to lean toward the latter, but I have encountered more than a few posters who say letting him live was an act of kindness on her part.

Letting him behind to die I think was both: taking revenge, but simultaneously not being able to kill him anymore since she had gotten to know him.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I don't think so, no. I don't think he knew what he was doing there, to be honest. He's drawn to Sansa and he doesn't know why, so he just showed up. (While we're here, I don't think Tyrion would rape Cersei if given the chance, either. He's raging from a place of anger and despair; most of what he says is a reflection of that, nothing more).

What I'm curious about is why the Hound hates Tyrion so much. He's pissed off when he finds out that Tyrion married Sansa, and says she'd be better off dead than married to him. I saw someone theorize that the version of Tysha's rape that Petyr tells Sansa--the one where Tyrion got bored with Tysha and handed her off as a sex slave to his guards--might be the version that the Westerlanders know, so I guess that could really color his perception of Tyrion. 

[Angel Eyes]

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don't think so, no. I don't think he knew what he was doing there, to be honest. He's drawn to Sansa and he doesn't know why, so he just showed up. (While we're here, I don't think Tyrion would rape Cersei if given the chance, either. He's raging from a place of anger and despair; most of what he says is a reflection of that, nothing more).

What I'm curious about is why the Hound hates Tyrion so much. He's pissed off when he finds out that Tyrion married Sansa, and says she'd be better off dead than married to him. I saw someone theorize that the version of Tysha's rape that Petyr tells Sansa--the one where Tyrion got bored with Tysha and handed her off as a sex slave to his guards--might be the version that the Westerlanders know, so I guess that could really color his perception of Tyrion. 

Tyrion and the Hound are interesting foils.

• The Hound is a large man noted for his fighting ability, Tyrion is a small man with no small amount of brains (though the Hound is far from stupid).
• Both have facial deformities; the Hound has horrific burns while Tyrion's mismatched eyes and large brow make him hard to look at (and that's before he loses most of his nose).
• Their relationships with their siblings are polar opposites; the Hound hates his brother and cared about his sister while Tyrion dislikes his sister and loves his brother.
• Their fathers were abusive; Tywin has pages upon pages on how he treated Tyrion while Ser Clegane showed his favoritism by covering up what Gregor did to the Hound.

One way they're similar is that much of their dialogue is bitterly sarcastic; the Hound is much less humorous than Tyrion, but the message is similar.

Another is that they're both protective of Sansa in their own way as the Hound refuses to beat Sansa while Tyrion does his best to stop Joffrey.

[Nagini's Neville]

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

What I'm curious about is why the Hound hates Tyrion so much. He's pissed off when he finds out that Tyrion married Sansa, and says she'd be better off dead than married to him. I saw someone theorize that the version of Tysha's rape that Petyr tells Sansa--the one where Tyrion got bored with Tysha and handed her off as a sex slave to his guards--might be the version that the Westerlanders know, so I guess that could really color his perception of Tyrion. 

I'd be interested in that too. The obvious answers could be, that Tyrion humiliated him during the BOTB. After that he really seemed to hate him:

" “Bloody dwarf. Should have killed him. Years ago.” “He’s dead, they say.” “Dead? No. Bugger that. I don’t want him dead.” He cast the empty flagon aside. “I want him burned. If the gods are good, they’ll burn him, but I won’t be here to see. I’m going.” "

A Clash of Kings, Sansa

" “Bugger Joffrey, bugger the queen, and bugger that twisted little gargoyle she calls a brother."

A Storm of Swords, Arya

“She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black.”

A Storm of Swords, Arya

But he seems to dislike him even before that:

" “Tell me, little bird, what kind of god makes a monster like the Imp,"

A Clash of Kings, Sansa

But then I also think he actually tried to warn Tyrion a couple of times, that his big mouth would get him eventually into trouble. And right he was. So maybe he didn't dislike him that much after all in the beginning. Or maybe the personal dislike really only started after the Battle of the Blackwater.

" “The prince will remember that, little lord,” the Hound warned him."

A Game of Thrones, Tyrion

"Sandor Clegane lingered behind a moment. “I’d guard that tongue of yours, little man,” he warned, before he strode off after his liege."

A Clash of Kings, Tyrion

 

But then Sandor actually seems to think, that Sansa would have been better off dead, then being married to Tyrion. I don't know, if he is just supposed to be dramatic here or if that is actually his opinion. If its actually his opinion, could very well be that he also thinks Tyrion gave his first wife to the guards. Or maybe he is just sad for her, that she will be forever bound to the family that murdered hers.

[redwolf@winterhell]

Whatever the hound is, he is not a rapist. I don't believe he ever would have hurt Sansa, I think he cared about her as much as he was able to. I think he just meant that he would've hurt himself than leave her with the Imp.

[glassgardens]

Would the Hound *rape* Sansa or otherwise overpower her if she refused him? No. It would be dishonorable, but more importantly, it would wound his substantial pride. He wants to be wanted. 

Would the Hound fuck Sansa if she were willing, able and above all, free to choose *him*? Yes, I think he would. He’s made it clear in his conversations with both her and her sister that he is inexplicably consumed with her. She’s his last stop on his way out of the only life he’s ever known, and his “dying words” are his regrets about her. And beyond death, the Elder Brother makes it clear that Sandor has used his time in confession (the only time the brothers of the Quiet Isle are allowed to speak) to discuss Sansa Stark (auburn, three-and-ten) extensively.