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US Politics: To Open or Not To Open, That's the Question


Tywin Manderly

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2 hours ago, Durckad said:

Using hypocrisy against Republicans is pointless, because they really don't give a fuck about morals or ethics or whatnot. So using this to highlight Trump's innate sleaziness is just a losing tactic. They didn't care in 2016, they won't care now.

Ostensibly, Democrats do care more about hypocrisy which is why this has the potential to hurt us more. If they see Biden and the DNC try to sweep this under the rug (actually or just optically), how much does that hurt turn out? I don't see Biden willingly stepping down at this point and from a purely pragmatic point of view, I think that's the better approach to take:  circle the wagons and hope for the best.

But it really does feel shitty to do so. 

I think the problem with that is hypocrisy is one of the things that turns off voters who otherwise agree with the positions that the Democrats hold, but always go back the "all politicians are hypocrites" garbage and don't end up voting. I know quite a few people who I can find agreement with in terms of policy who don't vote because the two parties are the same and they are both hypocrites, and the whole exercise is pointless. Republicans have learned to weaponize it to depress the vote, so it may be shooting ourselves in the foot to keep caring about it, but we have trained our voters to care about certain things, and that is not going to change overnight.

Hilary is teasing she is going to be on Biden's zoom cast today, I'm sure it will come as no shock to anyone to hear that I think that is a bad idea.

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23 minutes ago, karaddin said:

@Tywin et al. Unless the accuser is acting in blatantly bad faith I'd prefer to treat them on the assumption that whether the accusation is real or not, they're probably carrying a significant amount of psychological harm that came from somewhere - even if it's been misplaced. You are of course free to act otherwise and I'm free to draw whatever conclusions seem reasonable to me from that.

Blatant bad faith would be announcing the accusation next to that right wing provocateur asshole that literally built a podium on his front porch for giving bullshit press conference.

Do you not see the major problems with the bolded? I have a degree in the field and find this to be completely absurd. 

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I'm posting in the middle of the night and perhaps I'm not expressing myself too well, but no I don't see anything problematic in treating people that have made an accusation of having been raped by someone with compassion. Which is the point I was trying to make.

And describing them, as a person, as lacking credibility is the fucking opposite of that.

The field of psychology has not always been particularly great on this front either, so I'll decline to base my view of moral behavior on what you were taught within that construct.

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1 minute ago, karaddin said:

I'm posting in the middle of the night and perhaps I'm not expressing myself too well, but no I don't see anything problematic in treating people that have made an accusation of having been raped by someone with compassion. Which is the point I was trying to make.

And describing them, as a person, as lacking credibility is the fucking opposite of that.

The field of psychology has not always been particularly great on this front either, so I'll decline to base my view of moral behavior on what you were taught within that construct.

What if they lack credibility because they're a liar? And the people they cited as witnesses called them a liar? Am I allowed to consider their credibility then? Or do I have to assume that they're a fucking saint and somehow it's just the accusation that was the liar?

Does claiming victim status inherently shield one from interrogation? That doesn't make a lick of sense.

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43 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Seriously.......

 

Don't blame me.

You lot seem so eager to trip over your dicks, with one smaller half unable to hold their nose and vote for the significant lesser evil, while the half is so busy going after the former half, that the only logical conclusion is, that you want four more years, no, you deserve four more years, and thus you will get four more years. So, we might as well cut this short and just demand four more years directly.

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How you talk about people in this scenario isn't just about the person you're talking about, it's about how the other people reading this thread who have been victims of sexual assault can be impacted by the conversation.

Reade is, to the best of my knowledge, not reading this thread and unlikely to actually be hurt by anything you say here. I'm more concerned about the people reading this thread and having their conviction that they'd be dismissed as lacking credibility and gaslit reinforced by seeing people talk about her in that way.

It costs you absolutely fucking nothing to choose your words more carefully and be considerate of them as well, but fuck thinking for two seconds about them I guess.

ETA: This isn't hypothetical, one woman has already commented in the last thread and a half that the way this has been discussed has impacted on her state of mind. Id bet you plenty of money she's not the only one.

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9 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I'm posting in the middle of the night and perhaps I'm not expressing myself too well, but no I don't see anything problematic in treating people that have made an accusation of having been raped by someone with compassion. Which is the point I was trying to make.

And describing them, as a person, as lacking credibility is the fucking opposite of that.

The field of psychology has not always been particularly great on this front either, so I'll decline to base my view of moral behavior on what you were taught within that construct.

Treating someone with compassion is not what you wrote, but I do agree with said sentiment. 

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57 minutes ago, karaddin said:

If you read the bottom of the post you're quoting you'd see I agree it's very unlikely to happen. I was talking about scenarios for damage control that might have a chance at doing less harm than him staying on if this gets worse, not predicting that they would happen.

I get that. I responded to the top part because many in this thread still seem unable to accept that Dem voters heard all of the candidate's cases and rightly or wrongly chose Biden.  I won't accuse of you or being in that group. As I said I was speaking more towards the crowd

.....I am redacting the rest of this post because I am wrong

 

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55 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Stop fucking lying about the rest of us then.

Arguing the Bernie shouldn't replace Biden has very little to do with the amount of time you've spent shitting all over everyone who has made the shitty calculations around supporting the presumptive nominee.

You are not a victim. You are not a hero of political principle. You're a whiny saboteur.

Here's my first post on the subject, in a response to @Kalbear.

Quote

Whatever they do, it better happen quickly. 

Like I said in the last thread, it's very possible that this just doesn't break through this election due to the coronavirus and economy. But, if it's shaping up to be a close election, I don't think Biden can stay on as nominee. There's too much of a chance of an October surprise.

ETA: Not to mention, Democrats will be making a very deliberate decision to ignore this allegation. That's a decision that will have long-term

Yep, lots of whiny saboteurism right there. 

I'm a male sexual assault survivor who now doesn't know if I can vote for the Democratic nominee in November, but even when trying to be constructive, I still end up getting dragged. Does that pass your fucking stupid "anguish" test?

Jesus Christ, this is so fucked.

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8 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Don't blame me.

You lot seem so eager to trip over your dicks, with one smaller half unable to hold their nose and vote for the significant lesser evil, while the half is so busy going after the former half, that the only logical conclusion is, that you want four more years, no, you deserve four more years, and thus you will get four more years. So, we might as well cut this short and just demand four more years directly.

You're German. I personally get a free pass to blame you for anything, even if I just stubbed my toe while walking the dog. 

These are the rules.

That said it appears so. I don't think you'll find many people arguing that Biden is perfect, or even great, or even like the fifth best choice, but he's the nominee. Deal with it. Politics is a cold game, and if you cannot bring yourself to vote for him, don't, but if then Trump wins reelection, you do not get to say a single thing and need to know you played an active role in reelecting him, and you cannot deny this ever. 

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32 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

I think the problem with that is hypocrisy is one of the things that turns off voters who otherwise agree with the positions that the Democrats hold, but always go back the "all politicians are hypocrites" garbage and don't end up voting. I know quite a few people who I can find agreement with in terms of policy who don't vote because the two parties are the same and they are both hypocrites, and the whole exercise is pointless. Republicans have learned to weaponize it to depress the vote, so it may be shooting ourselves in the foot to keep caring about it, but we have trained our voters to care about certain things, and that is not going to change overnight.

I'm not sure hypocrisy is a problem for voters, or maybe it's an asymmetrical problem. People of all political persuasions will forgive hypocrisy in their side, but I really do think Republicans are better at just ignoring or rationalizing away the really hypocritical things their candidates do. Getting kicked out of a politically-oriented local Facebook group for asking about Trump's financial ties to China taught me that.

As for the people who say both parties are hypocritical, from my own personal experiences it seems like most of the people expressing that sentiment are doing it to rationalize voting for an obvious monster like Trump.

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1 minute ago, karaddin said:

I'll still ask everyone else in the thread to consider potential unintended impacts, but that point is made now.

I am very aware and very unhappy about the message that continuing to support Biden sends and the potential unintended consequences of it.  I nonetheless think that the consequences of Trump's reelection are sufficiently severe that it remains my primary concern.  If there were a realistic, non-suicidal scenario for supporting a Democratic nominee who is not Biden, I would support it.  But I don't see one.  The best I can do is say "Biden 2020, Someone else 2024!"

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10 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

many in this thread still seem unable to accept that Dem voters heard all of the candidate's cases and rightly or wrongly chose Biden. 

I didn't choose him.  We never even had a Dem primary here.  The Dem governor & DNC canceled it. Most US voters haven't chosen him because they never got to vote at all.

https://www.businessinsider.com/aocs-democratic-challenger-lived-in-trump-tower-before-moving-queens-2020-4

Wall Street / billionaires are Warrening AOC.  

Quote

 

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Wall Street-backed Democratic challenger lived in a Trump property for years before moving to Queens in late 2019

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the freshman progressive from New York, is facing more than a dozen challengers in her reelection race this year.

Arguably the strongest contender to replace the democratic socialist is the former CNBC host Michelle Caruso-Cabrera, 53, who is running in the Democratic primary in the Bronx-Queens district and raised almost $1 million in the first quarter of this year.

Caruso-Cabrera, a former self-described "Whole Foods Republican" who wrote a 2010 book calling for small government and fiscal conservatism, is positioning herself as a pro-business centrist to the right of Ocasio-Cortez.

Pads at the Trump International Hotel & Tower where MCC lived for a decade rent for upward of $10,000 a month, a princely sum for the average voter in the 14th Congressional District that includes chunks of Queens and the East Bronx

 

https://gregolear.substack.com/p/tinker-tailor-mobster-trump

Whether or not this has legs, it does connect dots.  And whether one buys it or not, it does fit the general outline observed by NYers over these decades.  It's entertaining too. 

~~~~~~

Why do you all hate Michelle Obama so much you are willing to coerce her into running for office? in an election that she, unlike, perhaps, her husband, knows isn't going to take place in this post coup d'état federal prison. He's got his wall, and it's our own homes, our own bodies.

As for Warren and being hated -- otoh this Thing in These Times has revealed the majority of US elected officials who have managed to handle It with any effectiveness are women, educated women, professional women who formerly practiced their professions and now how to read and listen to other professionals who have expertise and experience.
accomplishment.
 

 

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Just now, Maithanet said:

I am very aware and very unhappy about the message that continuing to support Biden sends and the potential unintended consequences of it.  I nonetheless think that the consequences of Trump's reelection are sufficiently severe that it remains my primary concern.  If there were a realistic, non-suicidal scenario for supporting a Democratic nominee who is not Biden, I would support it.  But I don't see one.  The best I can do is say "Biden 2020, Someone else 2024!"

That comment was specifically about the language we use when talking about cases like this, and the people who have made allegations. Biden staying the nominee is far more complicated and can't be fixed by simply choosing our words more carefully and compassionately.

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15 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Here's my first post on the subject, in a response to @Kalbear.

Yep, lots of whiny saboteurism right there. 

I'm a male sexual assault survivor who now doesn't know if I can vote for the Democratic nominee in November, but even when trying to be constructive, I still end up getting dragged. Does that pass your fucking stupid "anguish" test?

Jesus Christ, this is so fucked.

Oh, what part of "you centrists wouldn't have voted for Bernie in the general" and "you're going to blame progressives for Biden losing" was supposed to be constructive? My criticism of your posts has been very targeted. You're acting like we're attacking you for your reasoned posts, but I told you what I found objectionable in your posts. No introspection of that, though.

I respect Kay and Karaddin because they express their doubts without shitting on the good faith and integrity of people they disagree with. You're just trying to burn everyone down. I didn't drag you for getting furloughed. I am not attacking you for being a victim of sexual assault. I am telling you that your posts where you seem to treat Jace's nihilistic attacks as representative of everyone else are not right. And please don't use your past trauma to shield yourself from the consequences of the unfair attacks you have leveled at the rest of us. who just want to fucking see Trump lose.

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3 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I am very aware and very unhappy about the message that continuing to support Biden sends and the potential unintended consequences of it.  I nonetheless think that the consequences of Trump's reelection are sufficiently severe that it remains my primary concern.  If there were a realistic, non-suicidal scenario for supporting a Democratic nominee who is not Biden, I would support it.  But I don't see one.  The best I can do is say "Biden 2020, Someone else 2024!"

And that's just the thing, hurting the likely nominee just helps Trump, and he is categorically worse on every issue than Biden. Ride your moral high horse if you want, but politics is a fundamentally dirty game and taking your ball and going home to help the villain does not give one moral superiority. Quite the opposite, actually.  

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9 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

And please don't use your past trauma to shield yourself from the consequences of the unfair attacks you have leveled at the rest of us. who just want to fucking see Trump lose.

Oh really? But it's fucking cool when I get unfairly attacked, natch.

ETA: And for an example why I think progressives will be blamed if Biden loses, exhibit #1:

Quote

And that's just the thing, hurting the likely nominee just helps Trump, and he is categorically worse on every issue than Biden. Ride your moral high horse if you want, but politics is a fundamentally dirty game and taking your ball and going home to help the villain does not give one moral superiority. Quite the opposite, actually.  

That's just one of many. And I couldn't possibly have a good reason for not wanting to vote Biden, or not want him to be the nominee. No, I'm apparently just taking my ball home AND HELPING THE VILLAIN thinking I'm morally superior or some horseshit.

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2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I am very aware and very unhappy about the message that continuing to support Biden sends and the potential unintended consequences of it.  I nonetheless think that the consequences of Trump's reelection are sufficiently severe that it remains my primary concern.  If there were a realistic, non-suicidal scenario for supporting a Democratic nominee who is not Biden, I would support it.  But I don't see one.  The best I can do is say "Biden 2020, Someone else 2024!"

That's where I am. I hope it's somehow not true and Biden is being wrongfully accused, or at least that's it's some sort of grey area. But even if it's not, and he fully did it. I have to maintain the utilitarian perspective I try to always have. Biden being President is better than Trump being President. Full stop. Nothing else matters. Unless there's some mechanism for another nominee to be in place and that nominee had an equally good chance of beating Trump, I will continue to support Biden. Because Trump must lose.

I do fully recognize that this is the same logic reluctant Trump voters used in 2016. However, there's the key distinction that I think their reasoning for deciding that Trump being President was better than Clinton being President was objectively horseshit. They weren't running Dwight Eisenhower, or hell even H.W. Bush, as their nominee. It was fucking Trump. He's not better than anyone. 

And its still Trump now. If John Anderson was somehow alive and been elected President, and there were additional allegations or proof that Biden did this and did not back down, I'd probably vote for John Anderson. But it's fucking Trump. And I'd vote for W. Bush in a unity ticket to beat Trump. I'll vote for anyone to beat Trump. I'll vote for Biden if there was video footage of him assaulting someone; he's still better than Trump.

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Just now, The Great Unwashed said:

Oh really? But it's fucking cool when I get unfairly attacked, natch.

I guess every room in this house ends up being the one where you're the innocent victim who never said anything like "you guys wouldn't have voted for Bernie in the general" and all the negative reactions to your posts are just completely unfair and evidence that every centrist Democrat out there just wants to spend all day unfairly attacking Bernie fans.

I wouldn't have said a fucking thing to you if you'd just been talking about how shitty a candidate Biden is or how conflicted you are about the accusations, because I'd fucking agree with that. But no, you keep going on about how shitty we centrists are and how unfair we were to Bernie and how we wouldn't have supported Bernie in the general and how we're definitely going to blame you, personally, for Biden's inevitable defeat.

For the last time: I jumped on you because you attacked the integrity and good faith of people like me who don't like Biden but have calculated that he's the best chance we have to unseat Trump. It's not because you shared your personal troubles or don't want to eat a shit sandwich. It's because your posts are full of judgment for the rest of us who've decided we need to eat that fucking sandwich to save this shithole country.

 

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5 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I didn't choose him.  We never even had a Dem primary here.  The Dem governor & DNC canceled it. Most US voters haven't chosen him because they never got to vote at all.

 

Are you arguing that Biden didn't somehow win the primary and get majority support from the party?

I won't argue it's a crappy system but has a nomination ever been competitive through all primaries? I doubt it. The process is almost always wrapped up before April. Half of the States vote is usually just symbolic. Again crappy I know. I hope your State gets to vote but let's be honest would it change the result? I doubt it. Biden wrapped up the nomination by winning enough groups in the party. I just think there any measurement that would state that Dems didn't want him or preferred someone else. 

If you are just expressing annoyance that your primary was cancelled ignore the above.

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