US Politics: To Open or Not To Open, That's the Question

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, karaddin said:

But I saw an interview with his brother where he reassured his brother several times that he had no intention of running for the presidency and seemed to suggest he didn't have high ambitions. Surely you aren't telling me that he'd be lying about such matters?? His brother seemed very convinced by the answer which is why he asked it 5+ times like he was intending to use the interview to win an argument at family Christmas.

My step-brothers and I would lie about such things quite brazenly. 

I know you're not a fool, though.

5 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Saying it again doesn't make it true.  You can make an argument that Cuomo is the second most important man in America this past month.  Compare that to...whoever the hell the SecState is now. 

SoS has a place in history that the Governor of NY doesn't have, right?

Then being the Governor of NY who helped guide your state through the crisis on the path to becoming SoS? 

If you can't be the President, that's not a bad career. 

[karaddin]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

My step-brothers and I would lie about such things quite brazenly. 

I know you're not a fool, though.

Insisting you don't have ambitions for the presidency is like announcing your colleague has your complete support.

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

If you can't be the President, that's not a bad career. 

If you can't play that into being President, that's bad careering.

[Maithanet]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

SoS has a place in history that the Governor of NY doesn't have, right?
 

I don't even know what this means.  Can you name one Secretary of State in the past 30 years that has been important or wielded more power than Cuomo's current term as governor?

[Fury Resurrected]

1 hour ago, Simon Steele said:

I honestly know very little about Ventura outside of Predator and when I watched wrestling as a kid. To clarify, are you saying Ventura stoked anti-native sentiment (or Pawlenty)? 

Ventura, I'm certain, has plenty of skeletons in his closet based on the fact that he is a conspiracy radio show host.

I suppose the point I am making is that in this election where two men who have been accused of sexual assault are running for President, the other options are no better. While I do not know what the Dem Party can do about this, I think if they don't do something, they lose what credibility they still had. ]

With Blasey-Ford, my co-workers and I wrote letters to Cory Gardner about how important it was he take partisanship out of this decision. Not that Kavanaugh was a hundred percent guilty, but with such horrible accusations from a credible witness, he should not vote a man into one of the highest judicial positions in the U.S.

Gardner responded over a month later, with the same form letter to each of us, saying some generic shit about why he voted for Kavanaugh. We all have these letters hanging on our bulletin boards in our offices as a reminder that this November, Gardner cannot win his Senate seat back. We've used this to inform our own local activism against him. And, we thought, the Democratic party was the party who supported this.

By not even engaging with the Biden issue, but instead, letting the media gaslight Reade as the solution, is a true blow to the ethics the Dem Party claimed to have. The excuses I hear--well, we've settled down since Me Too started and we're more refined in our judgments--are the same excuses the right use with Trump. It creates true nihilism in our political system.  

Yes, Pawlenty stoked the anti native hatred, Jesse just pretended we don’t exist. As far as his skeletons, they won’t matter to the kind of person considering voting for a pro wrestler turned conspiracy theorist.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Insisting you don't have ambitions for the presidency is like announcing your colleague has your complete support.

 

9 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

If you can't play that into being President, that's bad careering.

Maybe 200 years ago.
 

2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I don't even know what this means.  Can you name one Secretary of State in the past 30 years that has been important or wielded more power than Cuomo's current term as governor?

I seem to remember a man I once respected greatly. From the age of a boy. He disgraced himself in front of the UN, and lead the Western world into a most folly of wars.  

[A Horse Named Stranger]

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

My step-brothers and I would lie about such things quite brazenly. 

I know you're not a fool, though.

SoS has a place in history that the Governor of NY doesn't have, right?

Then being the Governor of NY who helped guide your state through the crisis on the path to becoming SoS? 

If you can't be the President, that's not a bad career. 

Big fish big bond.

Small Fish bigger pond.

I mean, Cuomo is on the head of the foodchain in NY. So for him working as SoS under President (presumably) Biden is a step down, if you want to be the boss. So I can see that not being as appealing to Cuomo. Him not running for President. Maybe he is just happy to be in NY and not having to deal with McConnell everyday, and just having tell people, that Mitch is full of shit once on national television.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Big fish big bond.

Small Fish bigger pond.

I mean, Cuomo is on the head of the foodchain in NY. So for him working as SoS under President (presumably) Biden is a step down, if you want to be the boss. So I can see that not being as appealing to Cuomo. Him not running for President. Maybe he is just happy to be in NY and not having to deal with McConnell everyday, and just having tell people, that Mitch is full of shit once on national television.

Would you rather be a regional manager or VP of national sales?

Answer seems pretty easy to me.

[DMC]

23 minutes ago, karaddin said:

If you weren't suggesting that I was one of the people being entitled and were just talking about behavior you've seen from others then I misinterpreted your post, as that seems like a bit of a segue from what I was talking about.

This..is actually difficult to articulate.  But yes, I was not.  In that I wasn't grouping you in with the behavior I was referring to.  Definitely not.  I thought that'd be clear at this point, we've gone back and forth around here for quite awhile.

On Cuomo:  He's never going to be president.  His father waived off the only chance for him to be president.  Cuomo might be greatly loved right now, but make him a candidate and see how that immediately shifts.  Hillary was really popular when she was SoS as well.

[Fez]

28 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

People like claiming titles, Maith. If you accept you're not going to be president, SoS isn't so bad. And yes it is better than being a Governor of one of the premier states.

It's really not. Governor of New York may be the single best job in US politics, other than President. It's a massive state, the center of US media, and it's a state political system that gives the Governor enormous control over everything (more than the governors of California, Texas, or Florida have over their states). New York's FY2020 budget was $178 billion; the U.S. Department of State budget was about $40 billion. And the New York governor even gets pretty substantial foreign policy work via negotiating economic deals that involve New York City. Plus there's stuff like the the NYPD maintaining permanent offices in 14 other countries (which involves both the governor and mayor).

14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

SoS has a place in history that the Governor of NY doesn't have, right?

Then being the Governor of NY who helped guide your state through the crisis on the path to becoming SoS? 

If you can't be the President, that's not a bad career. 

Firstly, if we're going through all of history, Governor of New York is a better stepping stone to President than SoS. Martin Van Buren, Grover Cleveland, Teddy Roosevelt, and FDR were all NY governors before becoming President, and several governors were nominees who lost the general election. No SoS has been elected President since James Buchanan.

And second, sticking just to the post-WWII world, Nelson Rockefeller will be remembered longer than SoS except for Kissinger (remembered for the wrong reasons) and Clinton (who won't be remembered for her tenure as SoS). And while Rockefeller did eventually become Ford's VP, it was a year after he'd retired from being governor.

[Maithanet]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I seem to remember a man I once respected greatly. From the age of a boy. He disgraced himself in front of the UN, and lead the Western world into a most folly of wars.  

Powell is your pick?!  Powell was Cheney and Rumsfeld's water carrier, who sold his good name because they didn't have one.  And Powell didn't DO anything, the US was going to invade Iraq whether Powell was there or not.  Hardly a man who put his stamp on history, he was just along for the ride. 

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Would you rather be a regional manager or VP of national sales?

Answer seems pretty easy to me.

Not remotely comparable.  A governor has some powers that even the president does not, as has become very clear in this crisis when Trump cannot declare a stay at home order, but the governor can.  And as I see Fez noted in detail, Governor of New York is particularly powerful. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

None of your damn business.

 

What I was referring to should have been rather obvious - nobody else had any trouble understanding except you which is not surprising. Instead the very first thing you question is whether I consider rape allegations to be a conspiracy theory - that's the kind of bullshit I'd expect from a twitter troll (or perhaps a chapo trap house scumbag). 

Jesse Ventura? Don't particularly care but wish him luck considering the GNC appears to be rigging their primary in favour of Hawkins.

So that just leaves your definitive (and frankly ridiculous) statement that Biden is definitely going to pick Hillary as VP. Yes, this is what I was referring to. 

So, when I built upon something I saw in this thread and said that's what I definitely think is going to happen that Biden will pick Clinton, I got this from...a conspiracy website which is this one? 

All of my questions about what you were questioning was fair because none of them made sense in context to what you said. And I happen to like Chapo Trap House for what they provide, but they certainly haven't mentioned Clinton as a VP as far as I know. Again, I saw this here.

I think Biden will choose Hillary, and I don't know what what you believe about his VP, but I'm certain it is equally ridiculous. I think you're not so angry at me as you are at the reality of what I predicted coming true and being evidence that the Dems are revving up to lose. That has to be hard for some of you, so I'll give your pissy attitude a pass! 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

1 hour ago, DanteGabriel said:

It's hard to believe that Biden and the DNC would be so clueless and out of touch as to nominate Clinton. I'd like to see the sourcing for that claim, beyond "Hillary Clinton has been hanging around a lot."

But there is no information beyond some speculation here. It's just speculation, that's all.

[Kalbear]

Governors of large states are in general far more powerful and far more likely to do well in politics in the national level as POTUS than almost any other position. While Obama and Trump have bucked this trend, before that governors of big states were almost always good choices for POTUS candidates.

SoS had been a more powerful position during the cold war. It is not remotely as powerful now. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, Fez said:

It's really not. Governor of New York may be the single best job in US politics, other than President. It's a massive state, the center of US media, and it's a state political system that gives the Governor enormous control over everything (more than the governors of California, Texas, or Florida have over their states). New York's FY2020 budget was $178 billion; the U.S. Department of State budget was about $40 billion. And the New York governor even gets pretty substantial foreign policy work via negotiating economic deals that involve New York City. Plus there's stuff like the the NYPD maintaining permanent offices in 14 other countries (which involves both the governor and mayor).

It's a good job sure, but second to the presidency? Stop. It's not even the best state to be governor of, arguably, and there are several better federal positions, chiefly CoS, SoS and SoD. So spare me. Almost every governor that has ever lived would die for the latter two roles. The former, not so much, but it has more power. 

Quote

Firstly, if we're going through all of history, Governor of New York is a better stepping stone to President than SoS. Martin Van Buren, Grover Cleveland, Teddy Roosevelt, and FDR were all NY governors before becoming President, and several governors were nominees who lost the general election. No SoS has been elected President since James Buchanan.

But the last nominee was a former SoS. The last president who was a former governor of NY? 75 years is a long time....

Quote

And second, sticking just to the post-WWII world, Nelson Rockefeller will be remembered longer than SoS except for Kissinger (remembered for the wrong reasons) and Clinton (who won't be remembered for her tenure as SoS). And while Rockefeller did eventually become Ford's VP, it was a year after he'd retired from being governor.It's a good job, but second to the presidency? 

Stay your East coast biases. Rockefeller is just an interchangeable name throughout most of the country, and world. Most people here couldn't pick one out of a line up, and our last governor has two sons that are Rockefellers. 

[DMC]

11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

While Obama and Trump have bucked this trend, before that governors of big states were almost always good choices for POTUS candidates.

Meh, Arkansas and Georgia weren't particularly big states (they were southern states, which was what was important).  The predominate paradigm before Obama was that governors were more electable as POTUS because they had executive experience.  I always thought that was faulty, and it is.  There's no general rule.  Big state governors have big influence, yes, obviously, but it doesn't correlate to POTUS aspirations.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

21 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Powell is your pick?!  Powell was Cheney and Rumsfeld's water carrier, who sold his good name because they didn't have one.  And Powell didn't DO anything, the US was going to invade Iraq whether Powell was there or not.  Hardly a man who put his stamp on history, he was just along for the ride. 

Powell played a key role in making it palatable for people. And he was closer to putting his stamp on history than just being along for the ride. He was a major player history will remember than any other governor of his time.  

Quote

Not remotely comparable.  A governor has some powers that even the president does not, as has become very clear in this crisis when Trump cannot declare a stay at home order, but the governor can.  And as I see Fez noted in detail, Governor of New York is particularly powerful. 

Actually it is, but we don't need to go down a semantics wormhole. I'm not Kal, after all. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

43 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

Yes, Pawlenty stoked the anti native hatred, Jesse just pretended we don’t exist. As far as his skeletons, they won’t matter to the kind of person considering voting for a pro wrestler turned conspiracy theorist.

I see. I'm sorry to hear how it was with both. I don't know Pawlenty, but fuck him. Conversely, the ignoring of indigenous people in the political system is equally bad. We have a number of reservations in our state, and one similarity between Dem and Repub is that our elected officials treat Native Americans as if they aren't there. We haven't come remotely close to reckoning with the war, genocide, and mass removals of people from their homes. I remember reading something, last year I think, that the U.S. still has an obligation to uphold something from all the broken treaties, but that's a conversation everyone dismisses. Not only do I think reparations for black Americans are necessary, but I think significantly more so for Native Americans. Anyway, o7 

[DMC]

29 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's a good job sure, but second to the presidency? Stop. It's not even the best state to be governor of, arguably, and there are several better federal positions, chiefly CoS, SoS and SoD. So spare me. Almost every governor that has ever lived would die for the latter two roles. The former, not so much, but it has more power.

This is absolutely dependent on the president.  Andy Card was one of the longest serving CoS' in existence, but that didn't denote any particular type of influence.  SecDef and SOS can be the same.  Bush I obviously ignored Cheney as SecDef during the first Gulf War.  It's reductive to compare all of this - to governors, senators, house members, whatever.  I haven't been following this conversation, but it's pretty silly to compare positions with influence.  You can't generalize that.

[Darth Richard II]

This thread is moving super fast but I was referring to Biden picking Clinton as VP. As far as I know that’s been reported nowhere and was only mentioned here as a joke.