The Purple Wedding, the pie or the wine?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So what do you think was poisoned at the purple Wedding, the pie or the wine. My personal opinion is that the pie was what was poisoned, due to these factors.

- While things may not be as Petyr claims, he clearly knew something was going to happen, hence Dontos, and him being there.

- Olenna was also probably involved, due to the hairnet.

- However the main version has a couple of problems, in treason and modus operandi. Why would Petyr want to kill Joffrey. It doesn't destabilize the realm, on the contrary, and he does seem to have quite some control over Joffrey. It especially doesn't make sense seeing as his later plans depend on Tyrion being blamed, which was something of a wild factor. Also poisoning the wine puts Margery at great risk, seeing as she is drinking from the same goblet.

So given all these factors I personally believe something else was at play. LF and Olenna were staging a murder, but it was Tyrion's. Both wanted Sansa for marriage purposes, and LF could hide his ones to trick the Tyrells into helping along, and both were schemers who could use one less overly smart man in the court. My guess is LF's plan was as follows.

- Do the hairnet thing as usual, but poison Tyrion's pie

- In the chaos that will follow spirit Sansa away. She is already ready so it should go smoothly.

- Convince her with the hairnet that she will be looked for and as such she needs to stay with LF.

- Now Sansa's marriatable and entirely LF's.

The problem came however when Joff ate the pigeon pie, resulting in Joff's death instead.

So what do you think. The wine or the pie?

[corbon]

6 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So what do you think. The wine or the pie?

Yes. 

The wine actually. We just had a thread on this.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, corbon said:

Yes. 

The wine actually. We just had a thread on this.

Actually, we just had two threads on this. We need TWoW. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Actually, we just had two threads on this.

Yeah, I kinda remember but I was kinda busy with other things back then and didn't read them. Plus they're huge. 

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

We need TWoW. 

Yes! Hopefully not being able to do anything else GRRM might actually finish it this year.

[Lord Varys]

That is a non-issues since at least ASoS itself. There are a couple of nutcases out there who really try everything in their power to keep the pie idea alive, but that's really on the same level as the idea that Ned might be still alive or Dany be somebody else, etc.

If George were to 'reveal' that the wine wasn't poisoned his credibility would drop several levels as a writer since that would precisely the kind of thing he says he is not going to do - give a lot of clues that the butler did it and then, for no reason, make them retroactively into red herrings to justify that the gardener was the real killer.

The Purple Wedding as such can be an interesting topic for discussion ... if it doesn't devolve into this stupid pie vs. wine question.

In one of the last threads I think I made a pretty good case when exactly Garlan Tyrell put the Strangler into the wine.

[Lady Anna]

The wine. And the target was Joff.

Edit: I don't want to turn this into a discussion thread because we've had several but I just have to adress something specific that I really can't comprehend why it gets pointed out over and over - Marg drinking from the goblet. I really don't get why people insist on this. Obviously she was in it, considering she could die if she wasn't, and she must have got a signal to when to stop drinking (or she knew when the poisoning would happen). Other users in other threads have explained this already and more fully.

 

[Ygrain]

14 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Why would Petyr want to kill Joffrey. It doesn't destabilize the realm, on the contrary,

But of course it does. Tommen is much further from adulthood than Joffrey was and is docile, which undermines the strength and image of the king and puts the succession at risk. The Tyrell-Lannister alliance is weakened because the marriage is not consummated and they can back out if things go south. There is a possibility of a Dornish plot to push Myrcella's claim ahead of Tommen, with Oberyn on the small council contributing to all kinds of mischief. It may not be as as straightforward as the Red Wedding, but killing Joffrey does sow seeds for all kinds of trouble.

14 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

and he does seem to have quite some control over Joffrey.

If he was able to ingratiate himself with the little psychopath, wouldn't it be even easier to do the same with Tommen?

14 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

It especially doesn't make sense seeing as his later plans depend on Tyrion being blamed, which was something of a wild factor.

What wild factor? He orchestrated a situation which very foreseeably led to an ugly public row between Joffrey and Tyrion, to make sure every single person present saw those two were at odds. If Taena Merryweather is on his payroll, then framing Tyrion is a certainty.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lady Anna said:

Marg drinking from the goblet. I really don't get why people insist on this. Obviously she was in it, considering she could die if she wasn't, and she must have got a signal to when to stop drinking (or she knew when the poisoning would happen).

Dont you think she behaved vastly differently though then Roslin Frey?

[Seams]

I laughed when I saw the title for this thread. I guess we will never stop discussing this.

Here are some recent thoughts:

The death of Joffrey should be compared to the "death" of Bran at the Harvest Feast at Winterfell. All part of the "sacrifice of the sacred king" literary archetype. At the Harvest Feast, Bran sits in his father's chair and drinks from his father's silver chalice with the wolf head decoration. Jojen and Meera Reed arrive. Bran feels sad about the dancing that is not an option for him and Hodor carries him to his bed. The death is (obviously) symbolic but we know that GRRM uses "dance" as a metaphor in the "Dance of the Dragons" episode from Westeros history, among other situations.

At Joffrey's feast, he drinks from a silver chalice given to him by his new father-in-law, Mace Tyrell. The goblet is decorated with sigils of the major Houses of Westeros and Joffrey says the direwolf should be chipped off the cup and replaced with a kraken. (This remark should be put in context with numerous references to cutting off Robb's head and feeding it to Sansa, to the actual beheading of Robb and Grey Wind, and to the beheading of Ned.) There is probably wordplay on "deer" and "reed" in Joffrey's use of the Baratheon sigil, but his final death throes include this reed-related description of him:

Quote

A fearful high thin sound emerged from the boy's throat, the sound of a man trying to suck a river through a reed; then it stopped, and that was more terrible still.

As for the mystery of how Margaery can drink from the same chalice used by Joffrey, but suffer no ill effect from the poison, I think we really have to look at the Cressen / Melisandre poisoning scene for clues. One of the important hints is this:

Quote

Cressen owned no hollow rings, such as the poisoners of Lys were said to favor, but a myriad of pockets great and small were sewn inside the loose sleeves of his robe.

If we are assured that hollow rings can be used to hide poison, why not a secret compartment in a chalice? It might be that Margaery waits for the right moment to push a button on the chalice, releasing poison into the wine. She can safely drink from the chalice up until that point.

But I also tossed off the "flakes of crust" / "flakes of rust" evidence in the recent thread on this topic. I have also suspected poison on Ser Ilyn's sword used by Joffrey and Margaery to cut the pie. Insights into Joffrey's death can also be gained from an examination of the groom's gifts presented to him before the feast.

As for Littlefinger, I have come to believe that his motive had more to do with creating a major distraction that would enable Sansa to escape from King's Landing. His goal was not necessarily to kill Joffrey, but to guarantee that everyone would be too busy to notice that Sansa had left the building.

We are never going to resolve the question by arguing about the practicalities of how the poison was delivered or who had a motive. Examining the texts for evidence is the only way we will get answers about the who / what / when / where / why / how of Joffrey's death.

[John Suburbs]

16 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So what do you think was poisoned at the purple Wedding, the pie or the wine. My personal opinion is that the pie was what was poisoned, due to these factors.

- While things may not be as Petyr claims, he clearly knew something was going to happen, hence Dontos, and him being there.

- Olenna was also probably involved, due to the hairnet.

- However the main version has a couple of problems, in treason and modus operandi. Why would Petyr want to kill Joffrey. It doesn't destabilize the realm, on the contrary, and he does seem to have quite some control over Joffrey. It especially doesn't make sense seeing as his later plans depend on Tyrion being blamed, which was something of a wild factor. Also poisoning the wine puts Margery at great risk, seeing as she is drinking from the same goblet.

So given all these factors I personally believe something else was at play. LF and Olenna were staging a murder, but it was Tyrion's. Both wanted Sansa for marriage purposes, and LF could hide his ones to trick the Tyrells into helping along, and both were schemers who could use one less overly smart man in the court. My guess is LF's plan was as follows.

- Do the hairnet thing as usual, but poison Tyrion's pie

- In the chaos that will follow spirit Sansa away. She is already ready so it should go smoothly.

- Convince her with the hairnet that she will be looked for and as such she needs to stay with LF.

- Now Sansa's marriatable and entirely LF's.

The problem came however when Joff ate the pigeon pie, resulting in Joff's death instead.

So what do you think. The wine or the pie?

The pie, 100 percent, and thoroughly proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in the text already. There are just a few things to iron out in your scenario:

- the hairnet was necessary because at that point LF did not know who his poisoner, or his target, was going to be. Lady Olenna did not join the plot until LF manipulated events so that her motivation for killing Tyrion was as strong, stronger, even, than his.

- hairnet or no, LF has all he needs to keep Sansa close to him. She disappeared after the murder, so of course she would be a prime suspect. The hairnet was nothing more than LF planting the seeds and waiting for the fruit to ripen. He knows he needs Sansa, the poison, and the eventual target and poisoner at the same place at the same time. So the only way he can ensure the first two was to let Sansa keep the poison unwittingly.

 

2 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

The wine. And the target was Joff, period.

Edit: I don't want to turn this into a discussion thread because we've had several but I just have to adress something specific that I really can't comprehend why it gets pointed out over and over - Marg drinking from the goblet. I really don't get why people insist on this. Obviously she was in it, considering she could die if she wasn't, and she must have got a signal to when to stop drinking (or she knew when the poisoning would happen). Other users in other threads have explained this already and more fully.

 

If you were Margaery and you knew the wine was poisoned and Joffrey was some feet away squabbling with his uncle, would you purposely call Joff back to your side so you could share a toast with him using the poisoned wine? Not only does this bring unnecessary risk to her own life, but it undermines the argument between Joff and Tyrion that is central to this plan.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If George were to 'reveal' that the wine wasn't poisoned his credibility would drop several levels as a writer since that would precisely the kind of thing he says he is not going to do - give a lot of clues that the butler did it and then, for no reason, make them retroactively into red herrings to justify that the gardener was the real killer.

Really Varys? You mean like all the clues he gave us that pointed to Cersei murdering Jon Arryn, right down to Pycelle telling us "She wanted him dead because he knew about . . . about . . ." And then, surprise!, it turned out to be Petyr and Lysa.

How about all the blanket statements from multiple characters that Jon is the bastard son of Ned Stark, fathered on some washer woman, or Ashara Dayne. Not a single scrap of text that suggests he is anything else.

Or Tywin just taking advantage of Robb's childless marriage. Certainly no reason to believe the Westerlings were participating in any kind of plot (and the full depth of their participation has yet to be revealed).

The fact is, Martin does this exact thing all the time. And with the Purple Wedding, he didn't just gave us hints but actual physical, logistical and character-driven facts to see what really happened. Pretty soon he will give us the reveal, and then we'll all see that the Sealord's cat was just an ordinary cat.

[kissdbyfire]

Oh no, here we go again w/ the bloody pie!

You know nothing, @John Suburbs. 

Love the new avi btw. 

[Lady Anna]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

As for Littlefinger, I have come to believe that his motive had more to do with creating a major distraction that would enable Sansa to escape from King's Landing. His goal was not necessarily to kill Joffrey, but to guarantee that everyone would be too busy to notice that Sansa had left the building.

Yeah.

[Lady Anna]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Dont you think she behaved vastly differently though then Roslin Frey?

What do you mean?

[Putin]

It was magic from Stannis leach bro.

[Hugorfonics]

29 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

What do you mean?

So the theory you ascribe too is Marge was looking for signs like an Astro, playing the dishonest game with grace.

Don't you think thats wildly different then when Roslin was acting at her dishonest wedding?

[Lady Anna]

28 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So the theory you ascribe too is Marge was looking for signs like an Astro, playing the dishonest game with grace.

Don't you think thats wildly different then when Roslin was acting at her dishonest wedding?

I'm not sure what you mean. Roslin knew what was going to happen and she was crying, but Margaery also knew and didn't cry during the wedding? Roslin and Marg are in very different circunstances. Besides, the Tyrells engineered the murder and she had no love for Joffrey, so yes she was acting. But Roslin was genuinely distraught, of course, she was a pawn.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

I'm not sure what you mean. Roslin knew what was going to happen and she was crying, but Margaery also knew and didn't cry during the wedding? 

Thats what I mean

2 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

Roslin and Marg are in very different circunstances. 

Very different? Id say theyre similar. Regicide brides in asos

2 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

Besides, the Tyrells engineered the murder and she had no love for Joffrey, so yes she was acting. 

She had no real reason to hate Joffrey either, unlike Roslin who was shunned by Robb and grew up listening to her father slight Tully. And Frey engineered the murder of Robb.

Idk, thats pretty good acting for a teenager

2 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

But Roslin was genuinely distraught, of course, she was a pawn.

Yea, she was pretty much the definition of a piece. Just like Margery 

[Lady Anna]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats what I mean

Very different? Id say theyre similar. Regicide brides in asos

She had no real reason to hate Joffrey either, unlike Roslin who was shunned by Robb and grew up listening to her father slight Tully. And Frey engineered the murder of Robb.

Idk, thats pretty good acting for a teenager

Yea, she was pretty much the definition of a piece. Just like Margery 

I think it's fair to say Margaery had a reason to hate, or not like at all, Joffrey considering what she heard of Sansa's description of him. Yes she was also a piece like Roslin but what I meant was Roslin was forced to play her part in the wedding, under submission, while Margaery (in my opinion, I think you disagree) was one of the players so to speak. I think she was an active participant, not like Roslin but like one of the other Freys who were part of organizing and putting together the Red Wedding, to continue the analogy.

[Hugorfonics]

31 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

I think it's fair to say Margaery had a reason to hate, or not like at all, Joffrey considering what she heard of Sansa's description of him.

True. No reason to love him, but Im not sure it warrants murderous feelings inside Marge either

31 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

Yes she was also a piece like Roslin but what I meant was Roslin was forced to play her part in the wedding, under submission, while Margaery (in my opinion, I think you disagree) was one of the players so to speak. I think she was an active participant, not like Roslin but like one of the other Freys who were part of organizing and putting together the Red Wedding, to continue the analogy.

Word. Thats what I find unreasonable, that a kid barley older then Sansa can play it all smooth like master schemer Black Walder. 

Its not like we see Marge acting particularly bright, she falls into Cersei traps for example

[corbon]

58 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. Thats what I find unreasonable, that a kid barley older then Sansa can play it all smooth like master schemer Black Walder. 

Its not like we see Marge acting particularly bright, she falls into Cersei traps for example

She's around three years older than Sansa. Thats huge at that age.
Probably even more importantly, she's in a highly 'protected' environment with her family having the real power the Lannisters need to prop them up and her brother being on the Kingsguard specifically to protect her. Sansa is much younger and not just completely vulnerable, but abused into the bargain.

Plus Margaery has her grandmother around. She doesn't need to be super-bright, just not particularly weak, and she's had sharp tutelage, rather than fairy tale stories to learn from.