The Purple Wedding, the pie or the wine?

[Nevets]

The wine, obviously.  Even if Tyrion was the target, which I seriously doubt, poisoning his wine makes a lot more sense than poisoning the pie.  Tyrion is a pretty heavy drinker, so there would be plenty of opportunities to slip poison in.  Plus nobody else is likely to be drinking from his cup.

@John Suburbs. 

A target to be named later?  That has to be the dumbest idea I've heard lately.  LF didn't go to the trouble of having the hairnet made without a specific plan in mind.  Also, he's only got a month or so to work with.

He gives the hairnet to Sansa 1) because he won't be around for the murder itself, and 2) he needs a patsy to take in the murder weapon.

[Lollygag]

Definitely the wine.

But something separate was going on with the pie and especially that mysterious woo-woo old gods-y sword.

[Ygrain]

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

She had no real reason to hate Joffrey either, unlike Roslin who was shunned by Robb and grew up listening to her father slight Tully. And Frey engineered the murder of Robb.

Marge had damn good reason to fear what Joffrey might do to her and not want to marry him. Add to it that Edmure was sweet to Roslin and that there is absolutely no reason why Roslin should share Walder's opinion of the "Tully slight" (Robb did it for wuw, how romantic, after all!)

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk, thats pretty good acting for a teenager

You're not a teacher, right? I've had sooo many kids lying right into my eyes with a straight face... some people just have it in them from a young age, others don't.

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea, she was pretty much the definition of a piece. Just like Margery 

Nonsense. Margaery is an active participant, that's why she is present when Olenna questions Sansa and why they exchange looks after the revelation.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh no, here we go again w/ the bloody pie!

You know nothing, @John Suburbs. 

Love the new avi btw. 

I know the facts, and the facts say the poison could not have been in the wine. No way, no how.

Did anybody else's image get wiped recently? I couldn't find my original so I swapped in this one, which was tough to find because there's like a 20k limit now. Maybe the board is trying to lessen its data load?

[John Suburbs]

12 hours ago, Nevets said:

The wine, obviously.  Even if Tyrion was the target, which I seriously doubt, poisoning his wine makes a lot more sense than poisoning the pie.  Tyrion is a pretty heavy drinker, so there would be plenty of opportunities to slip poison in.  Plus nobody else is likely to be drinking from his cup.

@John Suburbs. 

A target to be named later?  That has to be the dumbest idea I've heard lately.  LF didn't go to the trouble of having the hairnet made without a specific plan in mind.  Also, he's only got a month or so to work with.

He gives the hairnet to Sansa 1) because he won't be around for the murder itself, and 2) he needs a patsy to take in the murder weapon.

Um, so they would try to kill Tyrion by poisoning Joffrey's wine? Huh?

Also, Lady Olenna was nowhere near Tyrion's wine (or Joffrey's, for that matter), but she was right next to the pie as the cutting ceremony was underway. So she had the poison, plus the means, motive and opportunity to do the pie, whereas she has none of this for the wine. Case closed.

Yes, the target to be named later, as confirmed by Dontos:

Quote

"The night of Joffrey's wedding. After the feast. All the necessary arrangements have been made. The Red Keep will be full of strangers. Half the court will be drunk and the other half will be helping Jofffrey bed his bride. For a little while, you will be forgotten, and the confusion will be our friend.""

So obviously the plan changed dramatically from then to now. The poisoning wasn't supposed to happen until after the feast and Joffrey was not the target. And he is also counting on Sansa to be forgotten, which would only happen if she is not married to someone by then.

Dontos also says that the wedding is to take place a moon's turn after the Blackwater, but that clearly didn't happen either, unless you propose that four-fifths of Storm took place in one month.

And why would LF bother with the hairnet at all if he already has Lady Olenna lined up as the poisoner? Just give her the poison.

Like I said, this fits perfectly within Littlefinger's MO: plant the seeds and wait for the fruits to ripen. And ripen they did, with careful feeding and watering by LF.

[Hugorfonics]

13 hours ago, corbon said:

She's around three years older than Sansa. Thats huge at that age.

Roslin age

13 hours ago, corbon said:

Probably even more importantly, she's in a highly 'protected' environment with her family having the real power

Like Roslin

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Marge had damn good reason to fear what Joffrey might do to her and not want to marry him.

Thats no reason to become a suave murderer though

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Add to it that Edmure was sweet to Roslin

She was crying when they met

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 and that there is absolutely no reason why Roslin should share Walder's opinion of the "Tully slight"

She grew up hearing her fathers opinion

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

(Robb did it for wuw, how romantic, after all!)

Love may make Jeyne swoon, probably not his ex who Id imagine felt slighted

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You're not a teacher, right? I've had sooo many kids lying right into my eyes with a straight face... some people just have it in them from a young age, others don't.

Lying about the dog eating homework is one type of lie, laughing and dancing with your fiancee on your wedding night while orchestrating his murder is quite another

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Nonsense. Margaery is an active participant, that's why she is present when Olenna questions Sansa and why they exchange looks after the revelation.

Thats when they decided to add Loras to the KG, to keep her safe from Joff

[Frey family reunion]

I lean towards the pie as well, with Tyrion being the target.  The Tyrells have no motivation to kill Joffrey on the night of his wedding, especially before he has a chance to impregnate Margaery.  They were plotting to marry Sansa to Willas Tyrell before the Lannisters married her off to Tyrion.  So it makes more sense that Tyrion was the target of the poisoning to free up Sansa, if in fact the Tyrells were behind the poisoning plot.  

Same is true if Littlefinger was behind the poisoning plot as well.  He also would have a motivation to free Sansa from Tyrion.

But the dealbreaker for me is the tale of the "Knucker".  The Knucker is a type of water dragon, who is also referenced in Beowulf (a tale which I believe is one of the subtle inspirations in the series, especially in the tale of Cat and Robb).  

In Sussex folklore the Knucker was killed by a Baker's boy who killed him by poisoning his pie.  When the dragon was disabled by the pie, the Baker's boy cut his head off.  

There seems to be many hints about Tyrion being linked to dragons, so it wouldn't surprise me if Tyrion is playing the part of the dragon and Sansa the captured maiden.  So on the night of the Purple Wedding we have one of the attempts to slay Tyrion (the dragon) and free the maiden, by poisoning his pie.

ETA: in the tale of the Knucker, the Baker's boy poisoned the pie by using poisonous mushrooms, red mushrooms with white spots, the inverse colors of the alleged poisonous mushrooms that Tyrion collects in Illyrio's manse when he thinks about killing himself.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I know the facts, and the facts say the poison could not have been in the wine. No way, no how.

Facts? Nope, sir. What you’re calling “facts” I’d call unfounded and unsupported wild speculation!

 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Did anybody else's image get wiped recently? I couldn't find my original so I swapped in this one, which was tough to find because there's like a 20k limit now. Maybe the board is trying to lessen its data load?

Mine was ok, but I did notice that there’s a lot of people who used to have photos/images and now have just the letter thingy. And yup, that happened after the last maintenance thing.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

This again? Seriously? 

[Nevets]

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Um, so they would try to kill Tyrion by poisoning Joffrey's wine? Huh?

Also, Lady Olenna was nowhere near Tyrion's wine (or Joffrey's, for that matter), but she was right next to the pie as the cutting ceremony was underway. So she had the poison, plus the means, motive and opportunity to do the pie, whereas she has none of this for the wine. Case closed

No.  There is on reason to poison the pie in the first place.  They need a server to make sure Tyrion gets the right piece of pie.  Just  have him slip poison in Tyrions wine when he pours it for him.

14 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Quote

"The night of Joffrey's wedding. After the feast. All the necessary arrangements have been made. The Red Keep will be full of strangers. Half the court will be drunk and the other half will be helping Jofffrey bed his bride. For a little while, you will be forgotten, and the confusion will be our friend.""

So obviously the plan changed dramatically from then to now. The poisoning wasn't supposed to happen until after the feast and Joffrey was not the target. And he is also counting on Sansa to be forgotten, which would only happen if she is not married to someone by then.

Dontos also says that the wedding is to take place a moon's turn after the Blackwater, but that clearly didn't happen either, unless you propose that four-fifths of Storm took place in one month.

And why would LF bother with the hairnet at all if he already has Lady Olenna lined up as the poisoner? Just give her the poison.

Like I said, this fits perfectly within Littlefinger's MO: plant the seeds and wait for the fruits to ripen. And ripen they did, with careful feeding and watering by LF.

It's going to be awfully hard to sneak her out at all if her husband chokes to death right next to her.  And she is not given any hint to leave earlier.  No reason for Dontos to think she can leave at all during the wedding.

ASOS takes place during a period of about 2 months. 

Lady Olenna probably did not want to have the poison in her possession, in case Littlefinger betrayed her. 

He may lay seeds from time to time, but there isn't time for anything to ripen here.

 

[Ygrain]

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats no reason to become a suave murderer though

Because she can easily say "no, I'm not going to marry him?" Because it's not like her family can step up on the ladder of power on its very top? Murdering Joffrey is a sort of eat one's cake and keep it too, solution - it keeps Marge safe from abuse while allowing her family their grab for the throne.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

She was crying when they met

Alright. 

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

She grew up hearing her fathers opinion

We know already that certain Freys disagreed with Walder's opinions, to the point they would have sided with Robb even despite the "slight".

Plus, Walder's opinions on the "slight" were a only couple months old.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Love may make Jeyne swoon, probably not his ex who Id imagine felt slighted

Only, Roslin wasn't Robb's ex. She was one of the many he was supposed to choose, it may not have been her even if he had kept his word.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lying about the dog eating homework is one type of lie, laughing and dancing with your fiancee on your wedding night while orchestrating his murder is quite another

Nah, definitely not a teacher. You are very naïve if you think this is the worst they lie about.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats when they decided to add Loras to the KG, to keep her safe from Joff

And even Sansa can see the risk in it, later confirmed by LF. She is so baffled by Marge's ignorance of it that she starts to doubt herself.

[Back door hodor]

I'm in the wine camp.

Also think Joff was the target with the two main conspirators being Baelish and Lady Olennna.

I do however think Tywin knew about this plot....not was in on, but knew and wanted to let it play out for his own purposes 

[Hugorfonics]

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Because she can easily say "no, I'm not going to marry him?" Because it's not like her family can step up on the ladder of power on its very top? Murdering Joffrey is a sort of eat one's cake and keep it too, solution - it keeps Marge safe from abuse while allowing her family their grab for the throne.

(Marge was not safe from abuse, its KL, shit goes bad for almost everyone all the time)

But Loras was what was supposed to keep Marge safe

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Alright. 

Alright

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

We know already that certain Freys disagreed with Walder's opinions, to the point they would have sided with Robb even despite the "slight".

Olyver fought and learned from Robb, him and a few choice others were exceptions, all other Freys were accessory to murder. 

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Only, Roslin wasn't Robb's ex. She was one of the many he was supposed to choose, it may not have been her even if he had kept his word.

So Robb didnt just insult Roslin, but all of her sisters and her house as well

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Plus, Walder's opinions on the "slight" were a only couple months old.

No they weren't, that was just the most recent and personal. Walder had low opinions of Edmures father and grandfather, maybe even greatgrand. Walder has felt slighted by Tully for ages

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Nah, definitely not a teacher. You are very naïve if you think this is the worst they lie about.

Im not a teacher but yea, teenagers lie. I remember my HS plays though, not stellar acting lol. Kids lie just not always convincingly, especially when its high treason at the most public event in the realm

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And even Sansa can see the risk in it, later confirmed by LF. She is so baffled by Marge's ignorance of it that she starts to doubt herself.

Loras joined the KG to keep an eye on Tommen?

[Agnessa Schizoid]

What a bizarre argument. Margaery is about to be married off to sadistic psychopath whether she wants it or not, she sees him humiliating his uncle and can imagine what will happen to her if she displeases him. For Roslin her marriage to Edmure is a dream come true, a once in a lifetime opportunity to  get decent hustand and get away from Twins, where majority of offsprings and women especially are given as much respect as cattle. Only she won't become the Lady of Riverrun because her wedding is about to be turned into bloodbath.  

Btw, I was an excellent liar even as a child. My own mother couldn't tell if I am lying or not. Some people are just good actors. You believe in what you're saying in the moment so it's convincing. More relevantly, we'll soon see Sansa lying pretty convincingly under duress.

 

ETA: If Tyrells didn't plan to kill Joffrey, it would be beyond moronic for them to use such an important and triumphant moment as Marge wedding into royal family to kill relatively unimportant guy like Tyrion, who can be killed at any time. Joffrey is harder to get to however and it's their last chance to do it before Marge becomes "spoiled goods". 

 

[Colonel Green]

On 4/29/2020 at 11:14 AM, John Suburbs said:

Yes, the target to be named later, as confirmed by Dontos:

So obviously the plan changed dramatically from then to now. The poisoning wasn't supposed to happen until after the feast and Joffrey was not the target.

No, that's not a sign that the plan changed.  Sansa didn't know that anybody was going to be poisoned, so Dontos gives her an alternative sketch of the plan that doesn't revolve around somebody being poisoned.

As to the original question, the poison was in the wine.  That's very clearly established, and the theory to the contrary is wholly unsupported by the text, requiring enormous contortions around established story beats and wholly destroying the way that the Tyrells' motivation is seeded into Sansa's early chapters and is used to develop Sansa's analytical abilities.

And most of all, since Tyrion was also supposed to die in the plan that Littlefinger outlines (by being framed for murder), the revelation that Tyrion was the sole target is a thoroughly meaningless twist.  So it's not narratively plausible.

[John Suburbs]

On 4/29/2020 at 12:56 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Facts? Nope, sir. What you’re calling “facts” I’d call unfounded and unsupported wild speculation!

 

Mine was ok, but I did notice that there’s a lot of people who used to have photos/images and now have just the letter thingy. And yup, that happened after the last maintenance thing.

Fact: Cressen's poisoning was dramatically shorter than Joffrey's.

Unfounded and unsupported wild speculation (and just flat out wrong): No it wasn't.

 

Fact: Cressen took a tiny sip of normal looking wine while Joffrey took many huge chugs of "deep purple" wine.

Unfounded and unsupported wild speculations: Cressen's wine was more concentrated; Joffrey's throat muscles were stronger; there was a delaying agent in Joffrey's poison; Joffrey's was older, weaker poison; the color of the wine has nothing to do with how poisoned it is, blah blah blah . . .

 

Fact: Joffrey is not hostile to Margaery in any way, nor is there any reason for him to be, nor does Margaery or Lady O think he is

Unfounded and unsupported wild speculation: Because of what happened to Sansa, they are convinced the same will happen to Margy, so they are going to kill Joffrey right in front of everybody, jeopardizing their hold on the Iron Throne, just because of what he might do in the future, even though it would amount to nothing more than a few bruises and a black eye.

 

Fact: Lady O has no reason to trust LF when it was his lie that got Margy into this fix in the first place and she is taking all the risks while LF is safe and sound out on his boat.

Unfounded and unsupported wild speculation: Lady O is an utter imbecile who trusts LF implicitly despite him being a known liar and backstabber.

 

Fact: No one could possibly know all the things that had to happen in order to poison the chalice and frame Tyrion.

Unfounded and unsupported wild speculation: LF knows all. He knows ahead of time exactly how Joffrey and Tyrion will react to the dwarf joust, right up to exactly where Joffrey will place the chalice and walk away from it. Alternately, there was no plan at this point. After meticulously arranging for the poison, the hairnet, the taking of the crystal, the dwarf joust and all the rest, when it comes to actually poisoning the king, they decided to just wing it.

 

I could go on and on. Sorry Kissed, but you have it backward. The wine theory is based on nothing but unfounded and unsupported wild speculation.

 

That must have been it then. The board kicked off all the images that exceeded the new data cap.

 

[Prince of the North]

Well...looks like it's again time to post the author himself on this very subject.  That way, people can read what Martin said about it and make up their own minds about what happened during the Purple Wedding - both what he wanted it to do within the story and, even more importantly, what he wanted it to evoke in the minds of readers.

Quote

Martin: In the books — and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal — the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

The reason I bring this up is because I think that’s an interesting question of redemption. That’s more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She certainly had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Everything she’d heard about him, he was wildly unstable, and he was about to marry her beloved granddaughter. The Queen of Thorns had studied Joffrey well enough that she knew that at some point he would get bored with Margaery, and Margaery would be maltreated, the same way that Sansa had been. Whereas if she removed him then her granddaughter might still get the crown but without all of the danger. So is that a case where the end justifies the means? I don’t know. That’s what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate. 

 

 

[John Suburbs]

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

No.  There is on reason to poison the pie in the first place.  They need a server to make sure Tyrion gets the right piece of pie.  Just  have him slip poison in Tyrions wine when he pours it for him.

It's going to be awfully hard to sneak her out at all if her husband chokes to death right next to her.  And she is not given any hint to leave earlier.  No reason for Dontos to think she can leave at all during the wedding.

ASOS takes place during a period of about 2 months. 

Lady Olenna probably did not want to have the poison in her possession, in case Littlefinger betrayed her. 

He may lay seeds from time to time, but there isn't time for anything to ripen here.

 

So they can arrange for a servant to drop poison in Tyrion's wine right in front of him, but they can't arrange for a servant to tuck it into his pie just before he sets it down in front of him? And why bother involving a servant at all when Lady O can easily arrange it so she knows exactly which pie is going to Tyrion and she can slip the poison in it just moments before it is served?

But by your logic, the entire plan was in place by the time Sansa gets the hairnet. This is before she even has a husband. So you are saying that LF already knows that Sansa will be married by then, and then he sets about to make that happen despite the fact that instead of just killing Joffrey and sneaking away with a maiden Sansa he now has to kill Joff in a way that frames Tyrion only to wind up with a widowed, deflowered Sansa? Or does LF also know that a known letch like Tyrion will not take her maidenhead the first chance he gets?

All of ASOS in 2 months? That seems awfully tight. I can see maybe two months between the Blackwater and the wedding, but no less than that. More likely three.

Exactly, nobody wants to have the evidence on them until it's time to do the deed. But Lady O has far less to fear from holding it than LF does. If he gives her the poison, is it likely that he will then run to the queen saying the Tyrells are plotting to kill Joffrey when it was his idea all along? They both go down if that happens. But Lady O could go to the queen and say LF came to her with a plot to kill Joff and she pretended to go along with it, and here is the proof. Now, it's only LF's head on the block.

He has at least two months, plenty of time for ripening. And as I showed, the need to arrange the dwarf  joust or frame Tyrion did not even exist when the hairnet was delivered, and it wouldn't exist at all if LF hadn't ratted out the Willas plan, which wasn't supposed to happen until after the wedding anyway.

[Kaelthas]

It doesn't make that much sense for the Tyrells to kill Tyrion. The critical part in denying The Lannisters the North is abducting (or killing) Sansa.

If Tyrion gets killed, the Lannisters can just marry her to someone else- someone who will actually consume the marriage, with a good chance that Sansa will get moved to Casterly Rock, and out of the Tyrells range forever.

And even if the Tyrells had secured Sansa, killing Tyrion wouldn't have been much of a Priority. First, because there are rumors about the marriage not having been consummated, and thus null and void. Second, because there would be no chance for the Tyrells to marry Sansa in the the in the near-to mid future without pissing of the Lannisters big time.

 

By the way, I agree with everything Agnessa S. said above.

[John Suburbs]

57 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

No, that's not a sign that the plan changed.  Sansa didn't know that anybody was going to be poisoned, so Dontos gives her an alternative sketch of the plan that doesn't revolve around somebody being poisoned.

As to the original question, the poison was in the wine.  That's very clearly established, and the theory to the contrary is wholly unsupported by the text, requiring enormous contortions around established story beats and wholly destroying the way that the Tyrells' motivation is seeded into Sansa's early chapters and is used to develop Sansa's analytical abilities.

And most of all, since Tyrion was also supposed to die in the plan that Littlefinger outlines (by being framed for murder), the revelation that Tyrion was the sole target is a thoroughly meaningless twist.  So it's not narratively plausible.

And yet Sansa is not even married by then, and there is no reason to think that she would be. So you are saying that LF planned to marry her to Tyrion, who is supposedly dead at this point, only so he can then complicate his own plan of just killing Joffrey and sneaking away with virgin Sansa, to instead have this convoluted mess with a dwarf joust and giant chalice in order to kill Joff, frame Tyrion and then get a widowed, soiled Sansa instead?

And realize that the hairnet was not the beginning of this plan. Dontos makes his first contact with Sansa before Renly is even dead, and he was likely approached by LF shortly after Joffrey's nameday joust. So you are saying that he knows all the utterly unpredictable events of the next two books are going to happen and they are all part of his plan?

Sorry Colonel, you have that backward. There is nothing in the text that supports the wine. In fact, everything in the text refutes it entirely, from start to finish.

Text: Cressen's poison is dramatically faster than Joffrey's, despite Joff drinking far greater quantities of "deep purple" wine.

Contortions: Joffrey's wine was more concentrated; Joffrey's poison was older and/or weaker; Joffrey's throat muscles were stronger; Joffrey had more in his stomach; . . .

 

Text: LF's lie was what got the Tyrells into this fix in the first place, so they have no reason to trust him, especially when they are taking all the risks and he is safe and sound on his boat out in the bay.

Contortion: Lady O is utterly powerless to prevent her domineering tyrant son from sacrificing his daughter for the alliance; Lady O is an abject idiot who trusts LF despite having proved himself a liar and backstabber.

 

Text: The circumstances leading to Tyrion being cupbearer and the chalice placed exactly where it was to be poisoned is utterly unpredictable and uncontrollable.

Contortion: LF knows all, he knows exactly what everybody is going to do, especially his victims. He's magic.

 

I could go on and on. I am still waiting for someone to give me even the slightest scintilla of actual, textual fact that supports the wine.