The Purple Wedding, the pie or the wine?

[divica]

45 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Removing a stone from a setting on a net attached to a person's head is not something you can do casually without the person noticing. 

how do you know that?

Seriously, given what we know thieves can steal without people realising how can you know that?

[John Suburbs]

On 5/11/2020 at 12:47 PM, divica said:

This isn t true. 

What really doesn t make sense is that Olena and LF would work together to kill a king. 

The list why this sounds impossible is huge, but I will give some examples. 

Why would Olena trust LF in a plot to kill the king when the Lannister have always been supporting LF? 

Why would olena not try to kill LF in order to not have to worry about him turning on her? 

Why wouldn t the tyrells suspect LF kidnapped Sansa? He was the only one who knew that there would be a lot of confusion that could be used to kidnap her and alayne stone isn t exactly hiden...

Why would Olena need LF to kill joffrey? Does anyone think she can t buy poison and bring it herself to the banquet? Someone is going to search her? 

The truth is that the whole murder plot is much more believable if LF was working alone. That he needed Sansa to smuggle the poison so that some servant working for him could take it and poison tyrion or the king. 

To me the only doubt we can have is whether LF wanted to kill tyrion or joff. And while tyrion is a much more obvious target and makes much more sense given that he wants Sansa to remarry I can also understand if he wanted to kill joff so that he doesn t tell Tywin about how LF has been giving him horrible advices. From a certain pov joff was a menace for LF if he ever talked to Tywin... And by incriminating tyrion LF probably believed Cersei would end up killing tyrion

No, Joff is LF's most valuable piece. Why would Joff tell Tywin what LF has been doing? They barely get along. Tyrion is the clear and present danger at this point; he's on the verge of uncovering LF's massive theft of the crown's gold.

But you're right, Lady O has no reason to trust Littlefinger if the plot is to kill Joff, especially when it was his lie that got Margaery into this fix in the first place. But since she knew that he lied about Joffrey anyway, and it doesn't really matter since they only need Joff long enough to produce an heir, she will trust LF enough to kill Tyrion because her motivation to want Tyrion dead is as strong as his now that Tyrion is married to Sansa and she is the heir to Winterfell. And she needs LF to get Sansa to safety because she can't do it without little birds seeing -- and she doesn't want to take on all this risk only to have Sansa married off to another Lannister.

There is no way the LF could know that just by providing the dwarf joust that Joff would dump wine on Tyrion's head, make him his cupbearer, place the chalice right where it needed to be poisoned, or that Tyrion would even be present during the joust or the cutting and not off for a piss or a barf or something. It was all through mere happenstance that it worked out that way, impossible to predict.

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Why would they think that, precisely?  The underlying rationale for the Lannister/Tyrell alliance remains the exact same, and the Tyrells are numerically the stronger partner in the alliance, so there is no incentive whatsoever for the Lannisters to dissolve it; that would end badly for them, in all likelihood, at a minimum to no advantage.  That's why only a moron like Cersei subsequently goes about trying this.

But we know it wasn't a servant, it was Olenna, the only one who touched the hairnet.

The hairnet does not make any sense purely as a logistical/smuggling matter.  Nobody is searching the servants (or the nobles) as they enter.  The only reason for Sansa to wear the hairnet is that somebody wants at least the option of framing her for the attack.

Um, because they've just committed a major betrayal against their allies, stealing one of the most valuable realms in the kingdom from under their noses? And Lady O doesn't even intend to do this secretly. She expects Tywin to just blithely let her take Sansa to Highgarden even though she knows that he knows that they originally intended to do that to marry her to Willas. Preposterous.

Lady Olenna could not possibly expect to use the hairnet to frame Sansa. First of all, who is going to make this connection between a tiny missing crystal in a hairnet and a dead boy king on the floor? Secondly, even if this connection is plausibly made, all that will happen is that Sansa gets dragged down to a black cell to be put to the question. Nobody is going to believe that little Sansa, all by herself, with no money and no friends, acquired this rare and deadly poison and commissioned a silver hairnet with a trick clasp to carry it. And even if Tyrion could get this done, there is absolutely no reason for this just so Sansa could parade the poison around on her head all night long until her dwarf husband needed to get it, either by climbing onto a chair or have Sansa bend down or get on her knees.

So the only reason for the hairnet is for someone else to retrieve the poison at the wedding. That brings up the obvious question. "who was at your hair that day, my lady?" and Sansa would say, "why, Lady Olenna said the wind had messed it up. But come to think of it, there was no wind that day, and the whole purpose of a hairnet is to keep the hair in place despite the wine." And quick is lightning, Lady Olenna is dragged into the investigation for the murder of the king.

[divica]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

No, Joff is LF's most valuable piece. Why would Joff tell Tywin what LF has been doing? They barely get along. Tyrion is the clear and present danger at this point; he's on the verge of uncovering LF's massive theft of the crown's gold.

I agree that tyrion is a bigger threat at the moment. But up until recently tywin wasn t even in KL. It makes sense that LF is worried that tywin will end up pressuring joff and he will tell him some of his actions were because of LF advices. I would say it is even inevetible that one day tywin would pisso of joff enough that he would blurt something he shouldn t. And as long as LF could incriminate tyrion he would get rid of 2 loose ends and get sansa all for himself. That was the best outcome for him, no doubt whatsoever.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

There is no way the LF could know that just by providing the dwarf joust that Joff would dump wine on Tyrion's head, make him his cupbearer, place the chalice right where it needed to be poisoned, or that Tyrion would even be present during the joust or the cutting and not off for a piss or a barf or something. It was all through mere happenstance that it worked out that way, impossible to predict

I agree that it was impossible to predict everything. But we know that LF talked to joff before the wedding so he could have convinced him to humilliate tyrion by making him his cupbearer or something similar so that tyrion would be pissed of and threaten joff. And if joff died shortly after he would always be suspect. And LF might even have prepared some witnesses to implicate tyrion if needed...

While I agree that directly killing tyrion, blaming sansa and at the same time kidnap her and keep the king that likes him in power is a much simple plan I can see the logic in kiling joff and blaming tyrion.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But you're right, Lady O has no reason to trust Littlefinger if the plot is to kill Joff, especially when it was his lie that got Margaery into this fix in the first place. But since she knew that he lied about Joffrey anyway, and it doesn't really matter since they only need Joff long enough to produce an heir, she will trust LF enough to kill Tyrion because her motivation to want Tyrion dead is as strong as his now that Tyrion is married to Sansa and she is the heir to Winterfell. And she needs LF to get Sansa to safety because she can't do it without little birds seeing -- and she doesn't want to take on all this risk only to have Sansa married off to another Lannister.

Here I agree with you completly. I can see ollena and LF working together to kill tyrion and kidnap sansa. There isn t much risk involved if one betrays the other and LF is completly willing to marry sansa to someone in order to gain support. It makes sense that his first option were the tyrells and that he approached them with the plan… If they were working together it must have been to kill tyrion, not joff.

 

[Colonel Green]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Um, because they've just committed a major betrayal against their allies, stealing one of the most valuable realms in the kingdom from under their noses? And Lady O doesn't even intend to do this secretly. She expects Tywin to just blithely let her take Sansa to Highgarden even though she knows that he knows that they originally intended to do that to marry her to Willas. Preposterous.

The Lannisters need the Tyrells' support, as Tywin himself says.  They'd have to put up with it, the alternative is worse.

And the North is definitely not "one of the most valuable realms in the kingdom".  It is large, but poor, thinly populated, and distant, and to all appearances most southerners don't think much of or about it.  It's a nice bonus (and, in Tywin's case, a nice way to get rid of Tyrion) for whoever wins it.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Lady Olenna could not possibly expect to use the hairnet to frame Sansa.

Yes, she could, because it serves no other purpose from the POV of the schemers.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Tyrion is the clear and present danger at this point; he's on the verge of uncovering LF's massive theft of the crown's gold.

Littlefinger was the one who suggested Tyrion for the role of Master of Coin, he can't be that worried about what he'd do in the role.

[Hugorfonics]

5 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

but poor, thinly populated,

Its neither of those things

[Colonel Green]

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Its neither of those things

I would say the books absolutely support the contention that the North is poor compared to many of the other kingdoms (hard not to be when cartoonishly hellish winters routinely disrupt all economic activity for years), but that the North is thinly populated is undeniable -- if it was densely populated it would dwarf the other kingdoms in strength.

[Hugorfonics]

16 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

I would say the books absolutely support the contention that the North is poor compared to many of the other kingdoms 

Quotes?

Westerlands are the richest, The Vale and The Reach probably are richer. The rest, probably not. So, Id put the North 4th out of 8

16 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

, but that the North is thinly populated is undeniable -- if it was densely populated it would dwarf the other kingdoms in strength.

There's a middle ground between thinly populated and densely. Robert and Jojen respectively ask Stark where all the people are, Stark replies "around".

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

There's a middle ground between thinly populated and densely.

Same situation, though, if the North was populated at even the average density of the rest of Westeros it would have an army larger than the Reach.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Quotes?

Westerlands are the richest, The Vale and The Reach probably are richer. The rest, probably not. So, Id put the North 4th out of 8

The Vale, the Westerlands,  the Riverlands, some areas of the Crownlands, the Reach and Dorne are all richer than the North, it stands to reason that the Stormlands are also richer.

[Walda]

Yes, one of these days I'm going to make a really long post with supporting quotes to attempt to explain what I think Petyr has done, even if I have not completely worked out why (other than we really need Winds of Winter to come out).

Shae dying from strangulation was a careful authorial choice. She could have copped a second crossbow bolt, or Tywin's dagger, been smothered by a silk pillow...but her author chooses to symbolically associate her death with Joffrey's. It is not a proof, but it is a point.

There are so many Baelish daggers. Deffo Mandon Moore (who was Ser Vardis Egen's lover in my head) went to battle protecting Tyrion, came back from Petyr with instructions to take him out.  Although, if Tyrion had not been fighting Stannis's men outside the gates, maybe Petyr would not have needed him out of the way - I don't think he had planned the assassination in advance, though he did put Tyrion's convalesence to his own good use. Still, it was not like Tywin was going to keep Tyrion on as hand. The transition of power to his father was probably more painless for Tyrion while he was in Ballabar's care, but it was inevitable, and Baelish had probably put a lot more thought into making Tyrion Master of Coin than into killing him and his loathing of the Imp might have made him feel quite sorry if he had had to substitute a muggle like Kevan or Lancel.[ETA I see Baelish as a Jaques Necker/Alan Greenspan type treasurer. Famed as a wizard of finances, gives himself plenty of time to step down gracefully accepting honours and bouquets, everybody knows that Fleury was a chump not fit to fill his shoes, so when Fleury says there is no money at all left in the treasury, it all went into that American war, I'm going to have to raise taxes, that is just proof the idiot can't manage basic arithmetic. There are calls for the wizard to come back, but as it turns out, the wunderkind has too much going on to be able to set the realm straight. So the bubble bursts, and there is a GFC, and a revolution, but no-one blames him for it. Things were going fine when he was treasurer.]

Like Bronn, Mandon spent a lot of time serving the people he was overtly serving, when Petyr did not countermand. Unlike Bronn, he probably wasn't motivated solely by money and survival. But also unlike Bronn, he had made contact with Petyr, who really didn't want Tyrion taking note of exactly when and how he had arrived at Kings Landing. He wanted them to assume he had travelled comfortably in the baggage train of the Tyrells, or some bannerman beneath Tywin's personal notice.

Petyr made a pretty profit by binding the Tyrells to the Lannister cause, as he did from the Tourney of the Hand, but I don't think he was ever supporting the Starks, or the Lannisters, or Renly. Given he trades across the narrow sea, and Stannis has a Lysene pirate commanding a sizable part of his navy ( the part that survived the battle), I think Petyr has daggers in Stannis's court as well as among the Lannisters, Renly, and the Starks and Arryns. I am guessing, if he has any real affilliations (ones he would not double cross) they are for house Strong. 

The alliance with Lady Tanda goes back before Eddard came to King's Landing. It might come out if the Rosby inheritance becomes a plot point. He might have been conspiring with Targaryen loyalists back then. And yes, Lord Gyles is no knight. But he was one of the main suppliers of food to King's Landing during a seige that Petyr profited greatly from.

I think Ser Creighton and Ser Illifer are Baelish daggers in Rosby.

Spoiler

Winds of Winter chapter

Spoiler

We know the Mad Mouse is - he offers to share half Varys's gold with Brienne, and like Ser Hyle, seems to have been thinking of matrimoney at the sight of the Maid of Tarth, but he knows better than to mention Petyr Baelish was offering ten thousand dragons for Sansa Stark, and we all know Varys has gone AWOL.

 

Also, at least one of the dead men in Renly's kingsguard, and probably more, were Baelish daggers. And so many in the Vale. Including Marrillion. Who lives.

[Helman Corbray]

On 4/27/2020 at 8:11 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

My personal opinion is that the pie

I think it was the wine. It's easier to poison the personal bottle only the king uses, than the pie half of the Crownland's nobility shall eat. 

[Helman Corbray]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Stormlands are also richer

It may be somewhat equal. Remember, que Stormlords had no cities to speak of, rather their culture was a martial one, with villages supporting the Nobles' seats of power. The North had a large (ish) city in the form of White Harbor, but it's main economic activities were the exporting of wood, wool and pelts. Raw commodities. 

In a rural continent where the more food you grow, the richer you are, and the humidity and heat in the Stormlands makes me feel that it was indeed richer, but by a bit, as they had not a big population to work the land in a large scale. It feels like Germany, because of the Knightly traditions, plus England, by the climate, or Italy, geographically, and none of these places was poor when united (Early HRE, Anjou England and Italy, whenever someone united it). 

The North being basically Scotland do not implies abundant riches, but rocks and hardy people.  

[Helman Corbray]

15 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

I would say the books absolutely support the contention that the North is poor compared to many of the other kingdoms (hard not to be when cartoonishly hellish winters routinely disrupt all economic activity for years), but that the North is thinly populated is undeniable -- if it was densely populated it would dwarf the other kingdoms in strength.

Yes, you can see it by the size of Robb's initial host. 18-20k men. While the Lannisters could immediately raise two full stacks of 20k each, and start recruiting another one shortly after. It is due to a small population poll, the difficulties of reaching the available men, and the silver to pay for their services. 

[Hugorfonics]

14 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Same situation, though, if the North was populated at even the average density of the rest of Westeros it would have an army larger than the Reach.

I dont think thats true. Dorne brings down the median too much, being an endless desert and the least populous kingdom.

14 hours ago, frenin said:

The Vale, the Westerlands,  the Riverlands, some areas of the Crownlands, the Reach and Dorne are all richer than the North, it stands to reason that the Stormlands are also richer.

Citation? 

Some areas of the Crownlands, what does that mean? Stokeworth has a higher gdp then the North? I won't believe that, especially without quotes.

 

The Stark lords and children certainly have money, they were head to toe in ice, jewelry dripping like a rapper. The wife too, as she handed Brienne a few million dollars and it had no effect financially for Stark.

There's good lumber out there, minerals, wildlife, whatever, its not some barren wasteland. It snows sometimes in the spring and fall, especially far north in the North, like Winterfell.

Frey went from nothing to a lord that rivals his own lords, one of the richest families in the 7 kingdoms because southron trade with the North. Theres money to be made out there. In there too, like White Harbor, the nearest Westeros harbor to the Free Cities of Essos

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, divica said:

I agree that tyrion is a bigger threat at the moment. But up until recently tywin wasn t even in KL. It makes sense that LF is worried that tywin will end up pressuring joff and he will tell him some of his actions were because of LF advices. I would say it is even inevetible that one day tywin would pisso of joff enough that he would blurt something he shouldn t. And as long as LF could incriminate tyrion he would get rid of 2 loose ends and get sansa all for himself. That was the best outcome for him, no doubt whatsoever.

I agree that it was impossible to predict everything. But we know that LF talked to joff before the wedding so he could have convinced him to humilliate tyrion by making him his cupbearer or something similar so that tyrion would be pissed of and threaten joff. And if joff died shortly after he would always be suspect. And LF might even have prepared some witnesses to implicate tyrion if needed...

While I agree that directly killing tyrion, blaming sansa and at the same time kidnap her and keep the king that likes him in power is a much simple plan I can see the logic in kiling joff and blaming tyrion.

Here I agree with you completly. I can see ollena and LF working together to kill tyrion and kidnap sansa. There isn t much risk involved if one betrays the other and LF is completly willing to marry sansa to someone in order to gain support. It makes sense that his first option were the tyrells and that he approached them with the plan… If they were working together it must have been to kill tyrion, not joff.

 

Tyrion is not just the bigger threat, but the more immediate threat. When Tyrion learns that LF has been stealing the crown's gold, LF loses his head. With Joffrey, we can see that LF is not foolish enough to just tell him what he must do. That's a sure way to get Joff not to do it. He merely points out a few things and let's Joffrey reach the conclusion LF wants. So even if any of this did get back to Tywin, LF has plausible deniability. "I never told him to execute Ned Stark, I merely said that the only appropriate punishment for traitors is death." See the difference?

All we know is that LF suggested to Joffrey that the dwarf joust will piss off Tyrion. Anything beyond that is sheer speculation. And even if it did go that far, there is no way of knowing Tyrion won't fill the chalice so that Margaery will drink. This is the time for toasts, after all.

The frame-Tyrion plan is not logical at all. It is orders of magnitude more difficult than a single murder and escape in the confusion. He now has to hope that everything breaks his way, right down to the placement of the chalice, so that Joff dies, Tyrion is framed and Sansa (who would not be expected to be a maiden by now) gets away clean. And remember, the only reason LF has to do this at all (in the context of the wine theory) is because he ratted out the Willas plot, which was not going to happen until after the wedding anyway, after he was to have Sansa in his possession. Some have argued that this was an act of desperation because Sansa stopped meeting with Dontos, but even if it was it introduces an exorbitant amount of complexity and risk. There were plenty of ways to foil the Willas plan without going to the Lannisters -- merely by exploiting Sansa's mounting distrust of the Tyrells. So once again, we have supposedly smart people doing the dumbest thing out of fear and desperation -- completely contrary to characterization.

Realize, however, that Lady Olenna's motivation to kill Tyrion did not arise until after he was married to Sansa and after the Red Wedding. So she wasn't his first option, she was the final piece of the puzzle that didn't come together until the last minute. And it only came about because LF foiled the Willas plot, which now turns that whole episode into a smart person doing the smart thing. So in the end, he would not have to promise Sansa to Lady O because he is holding all the cards: he has the poison set up and the escape route for Sansa. The only choice for Lady O is to either leave Sansa with the Lannisters or let LF have her. She chose LF. Trust had nothing to do with it.

[frenin]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont think thats true. Dorne brings down the median too much, being an endless desert and the least populous kingdom.

Dorne has the Rhoynish culture with them, they are great artesans, their wines and horses are a luxury and they traditionally have ties with Essos.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Citation? 

Some areas of the Crownlands, what does that mean? Stokeworth has a higher gdp then the North? I won't believe that, especially without quotes.

Rich and fertile, the riverlands border on every other realm in the Seven Kingdoms save Dorne, yet have few natural boundaries to deter invasion. The waters of the Trident make the lands ripe for settlement, farming, and conquest, whilst the river’s three branches stimulate trade and travel during peacetime, and serve as both roads and barriers in times of war.

 

THE VALE OF ARRYN—a long, wide, fertile valley entirely ringed by the great grey-green peaks of the mighty Mountains of the Moon—is as rich as it is beautiful. 

 

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Some areas of the Crownlands, what does that mean? Stokeworth has a higher gdp then the North? I won't believe that, especially without quotes.

No, I mean places like Duskendale.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The Stark lords and children certainly have money, they were head to toe in ice, jewelry dripping like a rapper. The wife too, as she handed Brienne a few million dollars and it had no effect financially for Stark.

The fact that the most powerful lords have money doesn't mean that the country isn't poor.

 

34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

There's good lumber out there, minerals, wildlife, whatever, its not some barren wasteland. It snows sometimes in the spring and fall, especially far north in the North, like Winterfell.

Bar the lumber, have you seen any other ser some worth in the rest?? Wasteland is the usual term.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Frey went from nothing to a lord that rivals his own lords, one of the richest families in the 7 kingdoms because southron trade with the North. Theres money to be made out there. In there too, like White Harbor, the nearest Westeros harbor to the Free Cities of Essos

The Freys traded with the North??

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

The Lannisters need the Tyrells' support, as Tywin himself says.  They'd have to put up with it, the alternative is worse.

And the North is definitely not "one of the most valuable realms in the kingdom".  It is large, but poor, thinly populated, and distant, and to all appearances most southerners don't think much of or about it.  It's a nice bonus (and, in Tywin's case, a nice way to get rid of Tyrion) for whoever wins it.

Yes, she could, because it serves no other purpose from the POV of the schemers.

Littlefinger was the one who suggested Tyrion for the role of Master of Coin, he can't be that worried about what he'd do in the role.

Sure, the Lanns need the Tyrells, but the Tyrells need the Lanns as well. This kind of thing drives a wedge between them that will fester long after the current need for the alliance is removed. And again, Lady O doesn't plan on sneaking Sansa to Highgarden but bringing her there openly, after both Joffrey and Tyrion are dead and Margery's "marriage" to Tommen hangs by a thread. The whole idea is utterly preposterous.

The north is hugely valuable. Why do you think everyone is falling all over themselves trying to wed Sansa Stark? Not only can it muster an army that rivals any other house except the Tyrells, it is chock full of wood, stone, ore, furs and everything else needed to support a modern army. Plus, it has something that neither the Tyrells nor the Lannisters have: a port on the Narrow Sea bringing in vast amounts of wealth from Essos. Gaining the north would tip the balance of power firmly to Casterly Rock, leaving Highgarden is the lesser partner forced to do their master's bidding or be exterminated.

Yes the hairnet does serve a purpose, but only once you realize that the plot was to kill Tyrion, not Joffrey. At the time it was delivered, LF had no other place to keep it. He can't keep it himself and then give it to his eventual poisoner, since he can't know if this exchange isn't a setup. He can't give it to Dontos, because he'd just sell it, and the hairnet. The only safe place is with Sansa, since she doesn't know what it is, and he has to get it to her right away while the Red Keep is recovering from the battle. This way, he can be sure that Sansa, the poison, the eventual poisoner and the eventual target are in the same place at the same time.

If Lady Olenna was involved in this plot from the very start, she can get the poison at any time before she even arrives at the Red Keep. And she doesn't even need Petyr to get some strangler. There's plenty of it at the Citadel, overseen by her bannerman and good-uncle, Leyton Hightower.

Who else was Petyr going to suggest as his replacement? It would look suspicious if he did not put up Tyrion's name. And his embezzlement schemes are so convoluted that it will take time to unravel them, especially with all the fake ledgers he's provided. It's only a few months until the wedding.

[Hugorfonics]

34 minutes ago, frenin said:

Dorne has the Rhoynish culture with them, they are great artesans, their wines and horses are a luxury and they traditionally have ties with Essos.

Good for them. Theyre still the least populous kingdom even while holding a decent amount of land

34 minutes ago, frenin said:

Rich and fertile, the riverlands border on every other realm in the Seven Kingdoms save Dorne, yet have few natural boundaries to deter invasion. The waters of the Trident make the lands ripe for settlement, farming, and conquest, whilst the river’s three branches stimulate trade and travel during peacetime, and serve as both roads and barriers in times of war.

 

THE VALE OF ARRYN—a long, wide, fertile valley entirely ringed by the great grey-green peaks of the mighty Mountains of the Moon—is as rich as it is beautiful. 

Yes, Westeros is very beautiful. Im asking for quotes saying the North is not

34 minutes ago, frenin said:

Bar the lumber, have you seen any other ser some worth in the rest?? Wasteland is the usual term.

Manderly mines silver. 

Usual term by whom, the fandom? What do they know? Lol

The north is big, like really big. When you get all the way to the top theres The Gift, in fact theres two of them. That's twice in Westeros history that an abundance of fertile Northern land was given out, gifted in the eyes of their recipients. If the lands nice there, why wouldnt it be just as good anywhere south? In fact, The Gift only failed because the free folk grow larger, also not terrible conditions apparently. And if you go really far north in past the wall territory, are the Thenns who excell at mining

Eta. 

How did The Crossing become so powerful if nobody wanted to trade? No Frey doesn't trade, he chargers traders who do

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Good for them. Theyre still the least populous kingdom even while holding a decent amount of land

Just as the North, perhaps because said decent amount of land is a wasteland.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes, Westeros is very beautiful. Im asking for quotes saying the North is not

The North is a cold land—much of it rising moorlands and high plains giving way to mountains in its northern reaches—and this makes it far less fertile than the reaches of the south.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Manderly mines silver. 

Silversmith i believe, silver mines would make them hella rich.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The north is big, like really big. When you get all the way to the top theres The Gift, in fact theres two of them. That's twice in Westeros history that an abundance of fertile Northern land was given out, gifted in the eyes of their recipients. If the lands nice there, why wouldnt it be just as good anywhere south? In fact, The Gift only failed because the free folk grow larger, also not terrible conditions apparently. And if you go really far north in past the wall territory, are the Thenns who excell at mining

Because southern does not necessarily mean better, most of the land are just rocks and hills.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

How did The Crossing become so powerful if nobody wanted to trade? No Frey doesn't trade, he chargers traders who do

Trade?? Sure, but with the North??