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Theory: Bran was tricked


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First post so I thought I would share my theory for the "main" story line in the books. I haven't combed the forums yet so my apologies if something similar has already been discussed. I believe that the Three Eyed Raven (TER) has been jumping from body to body for thousands of years, and is collecting his army for an assault on the realms of men with the Children of the Forrest and the Others fighting for him. In the Prologue to ADWD, Varamir Six Skins tries to warg into a spear wife to extend his existence. I always wondered why GRRM included this in ADWD as Varamir was just a small character, who's deaths dont usually get entire chapters dedicated to them. I think it was a way to show the perils of trying to warg into a human, and what happens if the other person resists. This provides context for why the TER has to trick Bran into accepting him willingly, lest it destroy them both. Once he is in though, he has control.

Why Bran? There is obviously something special about Stark blood that mingles with the magic woven into the wall. Perhaps Brandon the Builder exempted his bloodline from being affected. Whatever it is, I think the TER needed a Stark, who was also a Warg, to get him and his army past the wall. I think he tried with Benjen, but the attempt killed him. His Stark blood must have allowed the TER to be able to let him keep the ability to speak/think after he was turned to a white. The TER told Bran he had been watching him for a long time, as he probably did with all the Starks. If he just needed a warg, he could have found one easy enough. This is where the bottom levels of the crypts of Winterfell come into play. What if the Stark line started from a baby from one of the first men and a child of the forest, and that baby was immortal like the children of the forrest? As its offspring started to take human mates, eventually the CotF blood would delude through the generations. Now if you are the Starks, what do you do with an immortal great great.....great grandfather that probably doesnt like humans very much after they pushed the children of the forest into hiding? Perhaps you trick him, and entomb him into what we know as a crypt. Set up a physical and magical prison with stone kings and iron swords to sap his magical power so he cant escape. Problem is that over the generations, they forgot about him. His magical prison starts to weaken, and he is able to start reaching out magically to start planning his escape. First thing he needs is a body, so he tricks someone into letting his spirit take control of them, and hence the Three Eyed Raven is created.

I think Brandon the Builder probably discovered this plot somehow, which is why he built the wall. It trapped the TER and his followers north of the wall, and kept the realms of men safe. Being in Bran gives him alot of things. First, is it gives him a way past the wall. Second, is that he is now hiding in a Stark suit, which means the other Starks wont attack him (I believe a Stark has the power to finish him). Finally, he can enter Winterfell, and start to try and break himself out of jail. 

I think the Targaryen bloodline comes into play in destroying him as well. Perhaps only a child of ice and fire can end him for good. Maybe Rhagar discovered this in his studies, so he put aside his wife, risked his kingdom, and married Lianna. It may have been more duty then love that sent him to her. Thats it so far....what do you think :)?

 

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Let’s start w/ a few fact checks. :)

There’s no Three-Eyed Raven in the books, that’s in the abomination (that can’t be discussed here - forum rules). So, you’re talking about the Three-Eyed Crow

No one can warg into anything other than a wolf. If we’re not talking about wolves, the term is skinchanging. 

The rest doesn’t really make much sense to me. For instance, the idea that the 3EC was banned and trapped on the north side of the Wall doesn’t work. We know from Martin that it took hundreds of years to build the Wall, and thousands for it to reach its current height. 

The CotF are not immortal, they just have significantly longer lifespans than humans. 

Also, by the time Winterfell had been built, the FM and the CofT were at peace. 

There are hints that the 3EC had been looking for someone for a long time, and that he wasn’t looking only for a Stark. And the special something extra he was looking for wasn’t just the ability to skinchance, but specifically for a greenseer. 

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”

Also, I know this goes against the grain b/c most seem to fall into Martin’s trap willingly, but Bloodraven isn’t evil. The CotF aren’t evil. The heart trees aren’t evil. 

And welcome to the forums! :cheers:

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There is something that has been bugging me for a long time now.

Crows and Ravens are not the same thing. Ravens are larger and live longer. 

When Bran meets Bloodraven he asked him: Are you The Three Eyed Crow?

Bloodraven answered: Crow? Aye. Once.

Crow? with a question mark. Once. which means he was, as in the past when he was a brother of The Nightwatch. 

If he is The Three Eyed Crow why would he answer Bran's question as if he was confused?  And then proceed to tell Bran that he was A Crow Once, not now, in the present. 

 

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On 4/28/2020 at 8:27 AM, Peasant of the North said:

First post so I thought I would share my theory for the "main" story line in the books. I haven't combed the forums yet so my apologies if something similar has already been discussed. I believe that the Three Eyed Raven (TER) has been jumping from body to body for thousands of years, and is collecting his army for an assault on the realms of men with the Children of the Forrest and the Others fighting for him. In the Prologue to ADWD, Varamir Six Skins tries to warg into a spear wife to extend his existence. I always wondered why GRRM included this in ADWD as Varamir was just a small character, who's deaths dont usually get entire chapters dedicated to them. I think it was a way to show the perils of trying to warg into a human, and what happens if the other person resists. This provides context for why the TER has to trick Bran into accepting him willingly, lest it destroy them both. Once he is in though, he has control

The Others are the enemies of the Three Eyed Crow, The Greenseers, the Children of the Forest and the realm of men, both free folk and kneeler so they will not be joining forces in a war. Full Stop. 
Varamyr's story is to show the limits of a skinchanger/warg as opposed to a greenseer. Before the three eyed crow says is explicitly that greenseers are more powerful than skinchanger/wargs it is shown  when Bran's direwolf summer dominates the wolf with Varamyr's second life. 
Also, there is no need to trick Bran. A greendreamer was sent to show him the way. Before he left he learned to open his third eye to greensight. It was destiny, not a trick. 

On 4/28/2020 at 8:27 AM, Peasant of the North said:

Why Bran? There is obviously something special about Stark blood that mingles with the magic woven into the wall.

Yes. Exactly. We are shown Stark Magic in the very beginning when they meet the dire wolves. It is literally a central part of the story. 

On 4/28/2020 at 8:27 AM, Peasant of the North said:

Perhaps Brandon the Builder exempted his bloodline from being affected.

Not a chance. This is tinfoil. 

On 4/28/2020 at 8:27 AM, Peasant of the North said:

Whatever it is, I think the TER needed a Stark, who was also a Warg, 

Yes. The author made sure of that. It is solid plot that keeps the whole family linked in the coming war of the dawn. 

On 4/28/2020 at 8:27 AM, Peasant of the North said:

and get him and his army past the wall. 

This is off the rails. 

On 4/28/2020 at 8:27 AM, Peasant of the North said:

I think he tried with Benjen, but the attempt killed him. His Stark blood must have allowed the TER to be able to let him keep the ability to speak/think after he was turned to a white. The TER told Bran he had been watching him for a long time, as he probably did with all the Starks. If he just needed a warg, he could have found one easy enough.

He looked and many people, starks and non-starks. And yes, he needed someone more than a warg. He needed a greenseer. He may have looked at Benjen, but he didn't find him worthy and we haven't seen Benjen in a whole lot of books so we don't know what has happened to him. 

On 4/28/2020 at 8:27 AM, Peasant of the North said:

 This is where the bottom levels of the crypts of Winterfell come into play. What if the Stark line started from a baby from one of the first men and a child of the forest, and that baby was immortal like the children of the forrest? As its offspring started to take human mates, eventually the CotF blood would delude through the generations

This is explained in the world of ice and fire. A Stark went to war with and conquered the Warg king and married one of his daughters. This is how the stark line gained greensight. No hybrids necessary.

On 4/28/2020 at 8:27 AM, Peasant of the North said:

Now if you are the Starks, what do you do with an immortal great great.....great grandfather that probably doesnt like humans very much after they pushed the children of the forest into hiding? Perhaps you trick him, and entomb him into what we know as a crypt. Set up a physical and magical prison with stone kings and iron swords to sap his magical power so he cant escape. Problem is that over the generations, they forgot about him. His magical prison starts to weaken, and he is able to start reaching out magically to start planning his escape. First thing he needs is a body, so he tricks someone into letting his spirit take control of them, and hence the Three Eyed Raven is created

You've gone off the rails again and are writing your own story. If it isn't in the books it didn't happen. No ifs ands or buts. 

On 4/28/2020 at 8:27 AM, Peasant of the North said:

First thing he needs is a body, so he tricks someone into letting his spirit take control of them, and hence the Three Eyed Raven is created

My guess is the the three eyed raven has been a very powerful greenseer that has kept watch for the coming of the others since the last war of the dawn. It is a rotating lifetime position, like an American Supreme Court Justice. 

On 4/28/2020 at 8:27 AM, Peasant of the North said:

I think Brandon the Builder probably discovered this plot somehow, which is why he built the wall. It trapped the TER and his followers north of the wall, and kept the realms of men safe. Being in Bran gives him alot of things. First, is it gives him a way past the wall. Second, is that he is now hiding in a Stark suit, which means the other Starks wont attack him (I believe a Stark has the power to finish him). Finally, he can enter Winterfell, and start to try and break himself out of jail. 

Off the rails again. Bran The builder built the wall to protect the realms of the living after the war of the dawn where humanity and the children were almost wiped out. We know this. It is literally the story we read.   
 

On 4/28/2020 at 8:27 AM, Peasant of the North said:

I think the Targaryen bloodline comes into play in destroying him as well. Perhaps only a child of ice and fire can end him for good. Maybe Rhagar discovered this in his studies, so he put aside his wife, risked his kingdom, and married Lianna. It may have been more duty then love that sent him to her. Thats it so far....what do you think :)?

 

Again, you are off the rails. Why don't you believe a single bit of the fantasy story that the author has written? It's like you read a book and decided that you just thought the book sucked and so you are rewriting it the way you want 

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On 4/28/2020 at 12:20 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Let’s start w/ a few fact checks. :)

There’s no Three-Eyed Raven in the books, that’s in the abomination (that can’t be discussed here - forum rules). So, you’re talking about the Three-Eyed Crow

No one can warg into anything other than a wolf. If we’re not talking about wolves, the term is skinchanging. 

The rest doesn’t really make much sense to me. For instance, the idea that the 3EC was banned and trapped on the north side of the Wall doesn’t work. We know from Martin that it took hundreds of years to build the Wall, and thousands for it to reach its current height. 

The CotF are not immortal, they just have significantly longer lifespans than humans. 

Also, by the time Winterfell had been built, the FM and the CofT were at peace. 

There are hints that the 3EC had been looking for someone for a long time, and that he wasn’t looking only for a Stark. And the special something extra he was looking for wasn’t just the ability to skinchance, but specifically for a greenseer. 

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”

Also, I know this goes against the grain b/c most seem to fall into Martin’s trap willingly, but Bloodraven isn’t evil. The CotF aren’t evil. The heart trees aren’t evil. 

And welcome to the forums! :cheers:

Best post to a newcomer.  

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5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Again, you are off the rails. Why don't you believe a single bit of the fantasy story that the author has written? It's like you read a book and decided that you just thought the book sucked and so you are rewriting it the way you want 

Thumbs down buddy.  Completely unnecessary and worst answer to a newcomer.  

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Thumbs down buddy.  Completely unnecessary and worst answer to a newcomer.  

I could think of plenty of worse replies to say. Besides, there is no law that says we should entertain fan fic because someone is new. Now, the "everyone who is good in the books is actually evil and everyone who is evil is actually good"  threads are common and tired. Combine that with a no-curate policy from the moderators we get these threads over and over again. I stopped coming here after the show gave us all the major plot details and was gone for the better part of a year. I come back and here are the same posts again. Have you considered that the OP is a forum veteran who created a new account to repost this "theory?"    What ifs/rewrites/fan fic is an issue here and best nipped in the bud. 

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16 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I could think of plenty of worse replies to say. Besides, there is no law that says we should entertain fan fic because someone is new. Now, the "everyone who is good in the books is actually evil and everyone who is evil is actually good"  threads are common and tired. Combine that with a no-curate policy from the moderators we get these threads over and over again. I stopped coming here after the show gave us all the major plot details and was gone for the better part of a year. I come back and here are the same posts again. Have you considered that the OP is a forum veteran who created a new account to repost this "theory?"    What ifs/rewrites/fan fic is an issue here and best nipped in the bud. 

Yes, it's clear that you are tired of everything and have gone sour as a result.  Everything in your post was good until the last comment.  That wasn't right.  What if the OP is exactly what he/she appears to be - a newbie.  Why not err on the side of caution rather than going overboard.

You are not the only one who is tired and frustrated and lacking interest.

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Yes, it's clear that you are tired of everything and have gone sour as a result.  Everything in your post was good until the last comment.  That wasn't right.  What if the OP is exactly what he/she appears to be - a newbie.  Why not err on the side of caution rather than going overboard.

You are not the only one who is tired and frustrated and lacking interest.

It wasn't overboard. It was a basic statement. This isn't about a missed detail or minor plot point. It is about a story that is completely different than what was written. 

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13 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It wasn't overboard. It was a basic statement. This isn't about a missed detail or minor plot point. It is about a story that is completely different than what was written. 

It was hurtful and humiliating.  

@RanIt is time for some new material.  I'd like to be able to openly discuss the pre-released TWOW chapters without having to hide from the Mormont's.  Especially the Forsaken Chapter.  That Euron is one scary beast and I have a lot of tin foil hanging on that one.  

 

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1 hour ago, dbergkvist said:

I agree that there is probably some trickery going on. If somebody is telepathically communicating with a child and manipulating them to conduct a dangerous journey, I highly doubt that they have good intentions.

THANK YOU!!!

Can someone do me a favor? I can't seem to recall that the three-eyed crow (note that I didn't capitalize the name/title) wanted Bran to save the world from the White Walkers. Can someone find me a direct quote from written materials (no assumptions or bias from the TV show).

While I wait, I want to note that Samwell Tarly knows how to defeat the White Walkers already. Dany has dragons. Westeros has plenty of dragonglass in Dragonstone. Nothing in the books suggests the White Walkers have surface to air missiles. So how is Bran being stuck in a tree going to make a difference?

Also I want to note that the three-eyed crow wanted Bran to come to him to unlock secret powers. Bran believed the 3ec could make him walk again. He ASSUMED. Hodor is simple minded, Jojen is 13 year old idiot boy that will be eaten, and Meera knows nothing. If Bran had better mentors around ... like Osha, Ludwin, Robb, Catelyn, or even Jon ... they would ask him WTF are you doing going to the creepy stranger on the other side of the Wall? They would have forbade him to go.

Bran met Sam at the Wall, he was pretty confused about Bran's journey too, and what a three-eyed crow is. But our bookworm Samwell was in no position to deny Bran, especially after Coldhands "saved" Sam and Coldhands was waiting on the other side.

 

I agree with the OP that Bran was tricked (but not the other OP details). Varamyr Sixskins revealed two things for me:

  • You can't warg into something that does not want to be warged
  • You can have a second life in your warged creature

This means dragon-binding cannot be easy, human-binding cannot be easy, and if you want eternal life ... you must warg into a creature that is capable of warging too. Bloodraven chose Bran because he could be easily manipulated (especially since he was crippled) and Bran can warg. Bloodraven can leave his tree-body that is stuck in a cave, and travel outside. The weirwood paste dulls Bran's senses ... making it easier for Bloodraven to warg him. Do we know what happens to Bran after the visions of the weirwood paste? Nope. The ADWD Bran chapters ended there.

Anyways did anyone find the direct quote that says the three-eyed crow wanted Bran to save the world from the White Walker by being a tree?

5 hours ago, LynnS said:
10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Again, you are off the rails. Why don't you believe a single bit of the fantasy story that the author has written? It's like you read a book and decided that you just thought the book sucked and so you are rewriting it the way you want 

Thumbs down buddy.  Completely unnecessary and worst answer to a newcomer.

GRRM has written the books in an interesting way.

There is Story A where we get what we see from the POV characters. (Ex: Catelyn going to the Twins for the Edmure's wedding)
There is Story B where we get the foreshadowing of near-future events, the actual story in the background of Story A. (Ex: All the clues for the Red Wedding trickery)
There is Story C where all the events in the pasts leads to the future future events (Ex: boom doom boom doom boom doom)

If forum members only want to read Story A and take what GRRM gives us at face value (Catelyn simply going to a wedding, the 3ec wants to help Bran, the Pink Letter was written by Ramsay ... etc), so be it. Don't come to the forums then ... you have your answer already.
But I believe there are clever members here, a lot of them, who see the trickery, deceptions and mystery of Story B (Catelyn/Robb going into a trap, Bran going into a trap, the Pink Letter has too many discrepancies to be Ramsay ... etc). This is where the forum shines as we dive into theories and other possibilities. Some even dive into Story C afterwards to predict future future events. Regardless, the best theories are support with evidence ... especially text from the books.

Anyways, if anyone found the quote that says the three-eyed crow wanted Bran to save the world by being a greenseer, please let me know. I truly have forgotten and the TV show didn't make any sense with Bran's plot.

It is only because this quote from TWOIAF keeps bothering me:
Legend further holds that the greenseers could also delve into the past and see far into the future. But as all our learning has shown us, the higher mysteries that claim this power also claim that their visions of the things to come are unclear and often misleading—a useful thing to say when seeking to FOOL the unwary with fortune-telling. Though the children had arts of their own, the truth must always be separated from superstition, and knowledge must be tested and made sure. The higher mysteries, the arts of magic, were and are beyond the boundaries of our mortal ability to examine

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29 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Can someone do me a favor? I can't seem to recall that the three-eyed crow (note that I didn't capitalize the name/title) wanted Bran to save the world from the White Walkers. Can someone find me a direct quote from written materials (no assumptions or bias from the TV show).

I'm not sure that the 3EC told Bran that specifically.  But the crow did show him something in the coma dream and told him that it was the reason Bran must live.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that the 3EC told Bran that specifically.  But the crow did show him something in the coma dream and told him that it was the reason Bran must live.

 

We also have this bit from Dance:

“Most of him has gone into the tree,” explained the singer Meera called Leaf. “He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know.”
“What will I know?” Bran asked the Reeds afterward, when they came with torches burning brightly in their hand, to carry him back to a small chamber off the big cavern where the singers had made beds for them to sleep. “What do the trees remember?”
“The secrets of the old gods,” said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes. “Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone.”

 

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3 hours ago, dbergkvist said:

I agree that there is probably some trickery going on. If somebody is telepathically communicating with a child and manipulating them to conduct a dangerous journey, I highly doubt that they have good intentions.

Not to mention that Bran goes on the journey holding out the hope that his legs will be healed.  Or the strange thing about Jaime throwing him off the tower.  

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. "The things I do for love," it said.

Bran screamed.

The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran's shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone.

 

You don't need it now?  That's very suggestive that being thrown from the tower was part of a plan.

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2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

You don't need it now?  That's very suggestive that being thrown from the tower was part of a plan.

I interpreted that to mean that Bran should focus on whatever 3EC wants, and not get bogged down by some irrelevant Stark-Lannister feud.

That said, it does seem quite convenient that one of the few greenseers around just happened to get thrown out of a tower just when the 3EC needed him to.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Because winter is coming.

Wow this is so vague.
If the three-eyed crow came up to Tyrion in a Freddy Kruger dream and told him to come beyond the Wall to Hear Him Roar!, Tyrion would totally go seek the three-eyed crow in a dangerous journey.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

“Most of him has gone into the tree,” explained the singer Meera called Leaf. “He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know.”

You guys read this as Bloodraven wants to protect the realm. I read this as his revenge plot against the realm.

Let's pretend Top Secret Theory doesn't exist since it has overwhelming evidence that Bloodraven and the Others are working together. I am still waiting for a definitive text from the books that states the three-eyed crow wants Bran to be stuck in a tree for the rest of his life FIGHTING the White Walkers ... from a tree.

I do need to remind you that we are getting the POV of a 10 year old boy ... who lost his legs, who lost his family, who lost his home AND who is taking advice from a 13 year old boy and has the hots for his older sister.

I remember being young and in a similar situation. I was like 11 and I looked up to this boy who was two years older than me (he had attractive sisters too). I thought he was the smartest and wisest person in the world ... I gave into peer pressure taking a cigarette from him. It was only until I got grew older and realized all his deeds were childish from an adult POV. Hell, it was childish from an older teenager's POV too.

If Robb was there, Robb would smack the crap out of Jojen for putting stupid ideas in Bran's head. Hell, even TV Osha wanted to hit Jojen too for these things (GRRM personally wrote this episode too).

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that the 3EC told Bran that specifically.  But the crow did show him something in the coma dream and told him that it was the reason Bran must live.

The three-eyed crow and Jojen convinced Bran to making a DANGEROUS journey.
People justify this because Bran will help fight against the White Walkers ... but nothing in the text suggests that. Plus we already have a formula to fight them: dragonglass and fire.
Some people are blinded by what the TV show gave us and fail to see the truth: Bran only wanted his legs back ... which is not enough to justify the journey. And I do want to remind everyone that Bran's journey and plot made NO SENSE in the TV show. There is more to the three-eyed crow.

 

16 minutes ago, dbergkvist said:

I interpreted that to mean that Bran should focus on whatever 3EC wants, and not get bogged down by some irrelevant Stark-Lannister feud.

That said, it does seem quite convenient that one of the few greenseers around just happened to get thrown out of a tower just when the 3EC needed him to.

There was also a crow there urging him on at the thunderstruck tower in Winterfell.
 

 

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25 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

The three-eyed crow and Jojen convinced Bran to making a DANGEROUS journey.
People justify this because Bran will help fight against the White Walkers ... but nothing in the text suggests that. Plus we already have a formula to fight them: dragonglass and fire.

We don't really know what Bran saw in 'the heart of winter' or heart of darkness if you prefer. Or if this was a vision on the future as some think.  I suspect it has something to with Winterfell and the truths that the Starks have forgotten as mentioned upthread by Kissed-by-Fire.  

We also know that if Bran didn't get across the Wall he wouldn't be safe from Ramsey Bolton or Theon for that matter.  

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The secret within the crypts is the body of the Nights Queen.  There, like a sick version of Sleeping Beauty, she lays frozen in time and awaits her Stark man.  Jon gets wighted and makes it to Winterfell. He plants an icey kiss on her cool cheeks. She comes back to life.  

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