Theory: Bran was tricked

[dialt]

2 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Let's pretend Top Secret Theory doesn't exist since it has overwhelming evidence that Bloodraven and the Others are working together. I am still waiting for a definitive text from the books that states the three-eyed crow wants Bran to be stuck in a tree for the rest of his life FIGHTING the White Walkers ... from a tree.

I am under the impression that Bran is and has always been the 3ER. But beside that, I still don't know if Bloodraven is a good or bad guy. Or to rephrase, I can't still decide.

That said and to go to the quote above and the op, I think Bloodraven tricked Bran for sure about something else. 

Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers

The tricky part, is that Bran has the blue eyes of the Tully. He doesn't have red eyes like Bloodraven or deep green like... Jojen. Because of that, imo, he's not a chosen one.

Bloodraven was one, as Jojen is.

But in this series the "gift" is quite often... the gift of death. So is for the FM or with the gift of mercy.

Additionally, another information we get from Varamyr is that if you eat of human flesh, you're merged/tied with that person.

" I ate his heart [Haggon's heart] and drank his blood, and still he haunts me." 

The way I see it, is that Bloodraven - a red eyed chosen one to receive the gift - had to be sacrified and tied to the tree, Jojen - a green eyed chosen one - has to be killed/sacrified so that Bran can eat his flesh and blood and trigger his own abilities.

So, Bloodraven here is tricking Bran... but in the sense that he's preparing Bran for this shocking truth, for the discovery he'll make.

The real question I have, is another one. Because if so, in one case you have Tree/chosen one (Bloodraven) in the other Bran/chosen one (Jojen)

So, why Bloodraven - as well as the chosen ones he's talking about - had to be tied to the tree, whereas in Jojen's case, Bran himself is equal (same function) to the tree? That's super interesting. But I have no idea/answer.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, dbergkvist said:

I interpreted that to mean that Bran should focus on whatever 3EC wants, and not get bogged down by some irrelevant Stark-Lannister feud.

That said, it does seem quite convenient that one of the few greenseers around just happened to get thrown out of a tower just when the 3EC needed him to.

And yet Summer went crazy when Bran started climbing that day...

[kissdbyfire]

@The Map Guy, you and I both know that we will never agree on this one. Because I am spot on correct, and you’re so so wrong. 

We should make a bet...

[The Map Guy]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

We don't really know what Bran saw in 'the heart of winter' or heart of darkness if you prefer.

 

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

Exactly. Bran does not understand what he saw. But he was afraid. And now you want the 10 year old boy to go into the darkness? Into what he is afraid of? Why? To save the world? And who promised that?

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

We also know that if Bran didn't get across the Wall he wouldn't be safe from Ramsey Bolton or Theon for that matter.

This is a great point. But once they met Sam at the Nightfort, Bran could of went to Castle Black.

That made him uneasy. "We shouldn't do that. Bad things might come through from the other side. We should just go to Castle Black and tell the Lord Commander to let us pass." [said Bran]
"Your Grace," said Jojen, "we must avoid Castle Black, just as we avoided the kingsroad. There are hundreds of men there."
"Men of the Night's Watch," said Bran. "They say vows, to take no part in wars and stuff."
{Bran III ASOS}

Bran even suggested it, even to pass through ... and Jojen peer pressured him to avoid it.

Even in the TV show where Bran and Jon were closest Beyond the Wall, Jojen told Bran to avoid Jon.

Jojen is a piece of shit and deserves to get eaten in TWOW.

[The Map Guy]

4 hours ago, lalt said:

I am under the impression that Bran is and has always been the 3ER. But beside that, I still don't know if Bloodraven is a good or bad guy. Or to rephrase, I can't still decide.

You mean three-eyed crow? Never in the books had the Three-Eyed Crow in capital letters. It is not a title (suck it D&D!), it is the creature they saw in their dreams. They only people that call him three-eyed crow is just Bran and Jojen, NO ONE ELSE IN THE WORLD. Bloodraven was even confused when they asked him if he was the three-eyed crow ... he corrects them by calling himself the last greenseer.

In regards to the creature ... it could be a dream ... or it could just be a cheap trick where a warged-crow physically flies up to a sleeping Bran or a sleeping Jojen and whispers things in their ears.

Up to you whether you want Bloodraven to be good or bad. But one thing is clear ... the majority of people believed Bloodraven got Bran to his cave because he was suppose to save the world ... but nothing in the text suggested that. I understand why ... I fell for it once, even D&D fell for it. I got lucky because of Top Secret Theory. I looked back on the text and realized everything the three-eyed crow did was a trap. Bloodraven had lay a trap similar to this back in his human life. Bloodraven is a rat!

4 hours ago, lalt said:

The tricky part, is that Bran has the blue eyes of the Tully. He doesn't have red eyes like Bloodraven or deep green like... Jojen. Because of that, imo, he's not a chosen one.

Awesome point. Even Old Nan said "Crows are all liars." And yes Old Nan would slap the shit out of Jojen too for trying to bait Bran to a creepy stranger.

I would even stretch that with the information given so far ... greenseers are only Children of the Forest. Eat the weirwood paste and humans can magically be greenseers? Ok, maybe ... but then what? What is Bran going to do now? Be a tree?

Bran believed the 3ec could help him walk again ... and then he believed he can help him fly ... and finally, Bran can be a mighty powerful tree! Great deal!! Not!

 

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

@The Map Guy, you and I both know that we will never agree on this one. Because I am spot on correct, and you’re so so wrong. 

We should make a bet...

Awesome. Lets make a bet then!
If I am right and Bloodraven had evil intentions towards Bran, you can re-name your screen-name to "Map Guy's Groupie, formerly kissdbyfire".
If you are right, and the rest of the world is right, and D&D is right that Bloodraven had no evil intentions for Bran, I will re-name my screen-name to "Bloodraven's Groupie, formerly Map Guy"

Deal? 

[dialt]

 

19 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

You mean three-eyed crow?

Yes I do. And that’s another reason as to why I don’t think is Blood-raven. 

[Damon_Tor]

On 4/28/2020 at 9:20 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Also, I know this goes against the grain b/c most seem to fall into Martin’s trap willingly, but Bloodraven isn’t evil. The CotF aren’t evil. The heart trees aren’t evil.

They aren't "good" either. They are alien. Good and evil aren't useful terms when discussing what the trees and their puppets want: if there's anything GRRM likes writing about, it's utterly alien collective consciousnesses that figure out humans have warm cozy brains to cuddle up inside. Evil? No, but nothing approaching human concepts of morality can be applied to them.

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Awesome. Lets make a bet then!
If I am right and Bloodraven had evil intentions towards Bran, you can re-name your screen-name to "Map Guy's Groupie, formerly kissdbyfire".
If you are right, and the rest of the world is right, and D&D is right that Bloodraven had no evil intentions for Bran, I will re-name my screen-name to "Bloodraven's Groupie, formerly Map Guy"

Deal? 

You got yourself a bet, dear ser!

(We’ll change screen names for a specified amount of time, though. Say, 6 months?)

ETA: and no, you will change yours to “kissdbyfire’s groupie, former Map Guy)

I did find one thing we agree on... 3EC is not a title! 

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Exactly. Bran does not understand what he saw. But he was afraid. And now you want the 10 year old boy to go into the darkness? Into what he is afraid of? Why? To save the world? And who promised that?

I'm going with the 3EC or just plain the crow (which is the way Bran refers to the crow early on) and Bloodraven are not one in the same.  Bran dreams of both the weirwood beckoning him and the 3EC separately and together.  I think that Jon will become the 3EC at some point.  I think it's Patchface who identifies him:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

They found Her Grace sewing by the fire, whilst her fool danced about to music only he could hear, the cowbells on his antlers clanging. "The crow, the crow," Patchface cried when he saw Jon. "Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Princess Shireen was curled up in a window seat, her hood drawn up to hide the worst of the greyscale that had disfigured her face.

Jojen also says the crow came to him and I'm not sure Jojen knows who the crow is either.  Some samples from text:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=the+crow&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&povs[]=Bran

For the sake of argument, let's say Jon will become the 3EC at some point and that time isn't linear for Bran or Jon.  But rather time is fluid and past/present/future become one.  We've had a sample of that with the Ghost/Jon, Tree-Bran encounter at the Skirling Pass.  Something that Bran dreams about in the Crypts before he has passed the Wall.  He dreams that he touched Ghost and spoke to Jon. Martin is using a time trope which could be called memories of the future.  It isn't until Bran can become Tree-Bran that Bran can have memories of the future.  The event itself, sends ripples back in time.  Ironically, it isn't until Bran opens his third eye that he can become a greenseer.  This is what the crow is all about opening Bran's third eye and teaching him to fly.

I think Jon will have this same power to enter Bran's coma dream as the 3EC.  Jon is deeply connected to Bran and highly motivated that he must live.   But we know that Bran only lives because of the 3EC.
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon III

"Crippled," Mormont said. "I'm sorry, boy. Read the rest of the letter."

He looked at the words, but they didn't matter. Nothing mattered. Bran was going to live. "My brother is going to live," he told Mormont. The Lord Commander shook his head, gathered up a fistful of corn, and whistled. The raven flew to his shoulder, crying, "Live! Live!"

Jon ran down the stairs, a smile on his face and Robb's letter in his hand. "My brother is going to live," he told the guards. They exchanged a look. He ran back to the common hall, where he found Tyrion Lannister just finishing his meal. He grabbed the little man under the arms, hoisted him up in the air, and spun him around in a circle. "Bran is going to live!" he whooped. Lannister looked startled. Jon put him down and thrust the paper into his hands. "Here, read it," he said.

Jon's feelings about Rob could easily translate into his feelings about Bran:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father.

He remembered Robb as he had last seen him, standing in the yard with snow melting in his auburn hair. Jon would have to come to him in secret, disguised. He tried to imagine the look on Robb's face when he revealed himself. His brother would shake his head and smile, and he'd say … he'd say …

I would say that the 3EC comes to Bran in secret and in disguise.

Well, I won't go on and on.  That's my tinfoil for today.   Yes, I know most people think it's Bloodraven and maybe it is.

 

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

51 minutes ago, LynnS said:

For the sake of argument, let's say Jon will become the 3EC at some point and that time isn't linear for Bran or Jon.  But rather time is fluid and past/present/future become one.  We've had a sample of that with the Ghost/Jon, Tree-Bran encounter at the Skirling Pass.  Something that Bran dreams about in the Crypts before he has passed the Wall.  He dreams that he touched Ghost and spoke to Jon. 

I just realized that Bran's interaction with Jon through Ghost in ACoK was likely a very huge foreshadowing of Bran's interaction with Jon while he's in Ghost in TWoW. Bran will be a "tree" when that happens since he'll be sitting in a weirwood. 

I always thought that Jojen's conclusion about Bran being the chained winged wolf was wrong, and that it's supposed to be Jon instead. Jon wargs Ghost for the first time following his interaction with Bran. 

In a super weird way, it's like there's a power surge between Bran and Jon, probably aided by whatever is in the crypts. They tap into their powers together at about the same time, making the magic flow both ways. 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I just realized that Bran's interaction with Jon through Ghost in ACoK was likely a very huge foreshadowing of Bran's interaction with Jon while he's in Ghost in TWoW. Bran will be a "tree" when that happens since he'll be sitting in a weirwood. 

I always thought that Jojen's conclusion about Bran being the chained winged wolf was wrong, and that it's supposed to be Jon instead. Jon wargs Ghost for the first time following his interaction with Bran. 

In a super weird way, it's like there's a power surge between Bran and Jon, probably aided by whatever is in the crypts. They tap into their powers together at about the same time, making the magic flow both ways. 

Yes, interesting.  Perhaps Bran and Jon mirror each other in some aspects and they are both have to be released from their chains.  Also agree on the foreshadowing.   Jon is likely to be skinchanging Ghost after the assassination and we know that Bran can touch Ghost and talk to Jon.   An alliance between the tree and the crow?  Jon will have to do things that Bran cannot.  Jon will get information from Bran; truths the Starks have forgotten.  This is also setting Bran up to talk to Arya/Nymeria.

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Awesome point. Even Old Nan said "Crows are all liars." And yes Old Nan would slap the shit out of Jojen too for trying to bait Bran to a creepy stranger.

Yep, Bran said the crow is a liar and Old Nan said all crows are liars.  This is what Mormont said:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"I've always known that Robb would be Lord of Winterfell."

Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. "A lord's one thing, a king's another." He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. "They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You'll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they'll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon . . . and I'll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it."

 

 

[LynnS]

17 hours ago, lalt said:

I am under the impression that Bran is and has always been the 3ER

The only problem I have with this idea is that the crow is an identity specific to members of the Night Watch.  So the fact that the 3EC crow comes disguised this way; seems to point more Jon or Bloodraven as the agent in my view.  I also think that D&D weren't told the identity of the 3EC used BR as the 3ER instead.  Book readers know there is no 3ER.  

What separates crows from ravens is that crows are the poor cousins to nobility.  I don't think BR is showing up as the crow but possibly Mormont's raven.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

21 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

GRRM has written the books in an interesting way.

There is Story A where we get what we see from the POV characters. (Ex: Catelyn going to the Twins for the Edmure's wedding)
There is Story B where we get the foreshadowing of near-future events, the actual story in the background of Story A. (Ex: All the clues for the Red Wedding trickery)
There is Story C where all the events in the pasts leads to the future future events (Ex: boom doom boom doom boom doom)

If forum members only want to read Story A and take what GRRM gives us at face value (Catelyn simply going to a wedding, the 3ec wants to help Bran, the Pink Letter was written by Ramsay ... etc), so be it. Don't come to the forums then ... you have your answer already.
But I believe there are clever members here, a lot of them, who see the trickery, deceptions and mystery of Story B (Catelyn/Robb going into a trap, Bran going into a trap, the Pink Letter has too many discrepancies to be Ramsay ... etc). This is where the forum shines as we dive into theories and other possibilities. Some even dive into Story C afterwards to predict future future events. Regardless, the best theories are support with evidence ... especially text from the books.

Anyways, if anyone found the quote that says the three-eyed crow wanted Bran to save the world by being a greenseer, please let me know. I truly have forgotten and the TV show didn't make any sense with Bran's plot.

It is only because this quote from TWOIAF keeps bothering me:
Legend further holds that the greenseers could also delve into the past and see far into the future. But as all our learning has shown us, the higher mysteries that claim this power also claim that their visions of the things to come are unclear and often misleading—a useful thing to say when seeking to FOOL the unwary with fortune-telling. Though the children had arts of their own, the truth must always be separated from superstition, and knowledge must be tested and made sure. The higher mysteries, the arts of magic, were and are beyond the boundaries of our mortal ability to examine

There is a huge difference between thinking that the red wedding may be a trap and  the entire story rewrite that the op gave us. 

[dialt]

44 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Book readers know there is no 3ER.

Sorry again. Like said, I kown it too. I was simply in a rush to get to the point of my post which was foundamentally about something else. I suppose, I didn't pay too much attention to a detail that in the context of that post - that is not about the 3EC's  identity - to me felt quite irrelavant.

However, I apologize and thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain my position once and for all.

The fact that we are talking about a 3 eyed crow is in my opion the best hint that whoever he (or she?) is, is not the one eyed Bloodraven.

About Jon, it's an interesting alternative and quite frankly recently I found myself thinking about it too.

Mainly because of that same quote you brought to our attention in this post.

It's Jon at the Wall that Bran sees moments before  the heart of winter (whatever it is). And it's only then - after that specific vision (or sequence of visions Jon+Heart of Winter) - that the 3EC makes the finale call to destiny to Bran. And only then that he accepts.

So... I don't know. I don't even know if their relationship is going to be that of 2 people fighting on the same side, or on the opposite. And in the latter case, who's going to be the bad guy. But these are all... tinfoil ideas at the moment. Although I'd not be particularly surpised if something under those lines will be proven right.

At this stage, however, I am far more convinced that Bran is the 3EC.

"There's the wolf dreams, those aren't so bad as the others. I run and hunt and kill squirrels. And there's dreams where the crow comes and tells me to fly. Sometimes the tree is in those dreams too, calling my name. That frightens me. But the worst dreams are when I fall."

Wolf, crow and tree = 3 eyed? 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

In a super weird way, it's like there's a power surge between Bran and Jon, probably aided by whatever is in the crypts. They tap into their powers together at about the same time, making the magic flow both ways. 

Notice how the sequence of events is reversed in each POV:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

"The wolf ate," Jojen said. "Not you. Take care, Bran. Remember who you are."

He remembered who he was all too well; Bran the boy, Bran the broken. Better Bran the beastling. Was it any wonder he would sooner dream his Summer dreams, his wolf dreams? Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that. He could not understand why Jojen was always trying to pull him back now. Bran used the strength of his arms to squirm to a sitting position. "I have to tell Osha what I saw. Is she here? Where did she go?"

Bran touches Ghost then talks to Jon.  It's reversed in Jon's POV.  Bran talks to Jon first, then touches Ghost.  So like looking in a mirror where the image is reversed.  Also Bran refers to the crow rather than the 3EC.

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

 

 

 

[LynnS]

 

3 minutes ago, lalt said:

About Jon, it's an interesting alternative and quite frankly recently I found myself thinking about it too.

Martin repeats himself over and over again like he is trying to drill a hole in your head and plant something in there.  It's like he wants the reader to pay attention to something without being obvious about it or noticing at all.  Like this:
 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

That night Bran prayed to his father's gods for dreamless sleep. If the gods heard, they mocked his hopes, for the nightmare they sent was worse than any wolf dream.

"Fly or die!" cried the three-eyed crow as it pecked at him. He wept and pleaded but the crow had no pity. It put out his left eye and then his right, and when he was blind in the dark it pecked at his brow, driving its terrible sharp beak deep into his skull. He screamed until he was certain his lungs must burst. The pain was an axe splitting his head apart, but when the crow wrenched out its beak all slimy with bits of bone and brain, Bran could see again. What he saw made him gasp in fear. He was clinging to a tower miles high, and his fingers were slipping, nails scrabbling at the stone, his legs dragging him down, stupid useless dead legs. "Help me!" he cried. A golden man appeared in the sky above him and pulled him up. "The things I do for love," he murmured softly as he tossed him out kicking into empty air.

 

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

Jon had no answer for him. The raven was pecking at an egg, breaking the shell. Pushing his beak through the hole, he pulled out morsels of white and yoke.

 

 

[dialt]

I believe that you are far more right than you actually believe when you say this

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

it's like he wants the reader to pay attention to something without being obvious about it or noticing at all. 

I am working on something from a very long time now. Long story in short: I am under the impression that the 5 prologues are full of recurrent key words/leit motives etc... repeted without fault in each one of them and I am tracking these things.

Because of that, in the back on mind there's a now a very long (which is amazing per se) and curious list of words. When I re-read some passages form other chapters, sometimes suddenly I see not just one or two but a bunch of them. As if GRRM is telling me "you really have to pay attention here".

The first paraghraf that you quoted, works like that.

But I am probably crazy... 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, lalt said:

I am working on something from a very long time now. Long story in short: I am under the impression that the 5 prologues are full of recurrent key words/leit motives etc... repeted without fault in each one of them and I am tracking these things.

I haven't personally looked into it, but I think there should be repeats because all 5 prologues are connected to the same things. AGoT introduced the Others. ACoK introduced Stannis who is supposed to be the Chosen One. ASoS was the attack on the FotFM as a mini-Battle for the Dawn with Sam's subsequent retelling of what happened there, including the AA imagery we got. AFfC re-introduces the idea of the dragon has three heads and a reminder to the group of Acolytes that Dany is still around. ADwD is directly tied to Jon and Bran.

Thematically, I think the prologues are about the same thing.

[dialt]

2 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I haven't personally looked into it, but I think there should be repeats because all 5 prologues are connected to the same things. AGoT introduced the Others. ACoK introduced Stannis who is supposed to be the Chosen One. ASoS was the attack on the FotFM as a mini-Battle for the Dawn with Sam's subsequent retelling of what happened there, including the AA imagery we got. AFfC re-introduces the idea of the dragon has three heads and a reminder to the group of Acolytes that Dany is still around. ADwD is directly tied to Jon and Bran.

Thematically, I think the prologues are about the same thing.

That's true and as a writing technique quite usual not surprising. What I am talking about, however, is something more specific and... obssessive I'd say.

But I don't want bother anyone with an OT discussion. If anyone is interested, we can meet elsewhere.