Theory: Bran was tricked

[The Map Guy]

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

You got yourself a bet, dear ser!

(We’ll change screen names for a specified amount of time, though. Say, 6 months?)

ETA: and no, you will change yours to “kissdbyfire’s groupie, former Map Guy)

I did find one thing we agree on... 3EC is not a title! 

Deal!

But 6 months? Aww i thought it would be lifetime!
Fine, have it your way. My profile is only 20 months old and yours is like 9 years ... I guess 6 months is a reasonable term after TWOW's release.
BUT no creating a temporary profiles to use! You have to post with your original profile. No loopholes! You can't fool me! I'm no sucker ... unlike certain other people. 

Map Guy's groupie, formerly kissdbyfire VERSUS kissdbyfire's groupie, formerly Map Guy ... for whether Bloodraven is good or evil in TWOW!
Profile Name Change - 6 month term.
DEAL! 

Don't forget, you owe something like this to Megorova with Rhaego being alive! Ladies first, so you can serve Megorova's term before mines. 

 

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

"Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

I read this as Bloodraven, an albino crow.

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

Jojen also says the crow came to him and I'm not sure Jojen knows who the crow is either.

Bloodraven only goes after children ... Bran after his fall, Jojen after his fever. The children are the most vulnerable here and easier to manipulate.
Bloodraven needs to steal a warg's body for eternal life. But someone like Varamyr would never journey to his cave. Even then, Varamyr could resist Bloodraven trying to warg him.

Bloodraven had to trick Jojen and Bran (our youngest POV character) to come willingly or it wouldn't work.
I believe the OP mentioned something like this.

Bran doesn't know it yet, but he has Stockholm Syndrome before he even got to the cave to become a hostage.

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

For the sake of argument, let's say Jon will become the 3EC at some point and that time isn't linear for Bran or Jon.  But rather time is fluid and past/present/future become one. 

Please ... no time travel. I still don't fully understand the science behind the 3ec. But one thing I am sure, it is not a title. No one else is going to get that title. The tiny three-eyed crow is like Bloodraven's avatar when he surfs the weirwood/dream.net. No one has seen it but Bran and Jojen. D&D took the title 3ER way toooooo far, and it cheapened Bran's personally and endgame. The correct term would of been greenseer. The 3ec is just a bird-avatar in a dream, used by Bloodraven (and I believe Bloodraven wants the Iron Throne).

And I believe the weirwood.net works like CCTV camera in EACH weirwood tree (notice there are no weirwood trees in Dorne? Suck it D&D!). You can watch, but you can't alter the past or future. You can say a word or two, and a gust of wind would appear. But its not enough to move the story forward. Bloodraven & the Others have hacked into the CCTV with the help of the CotF. That is why the weirwood trees cry sometimes. They don't want to be hacked.

The Old Gods/Weirwood.net (winds) hacked by the Others/Cold Gods (winter) ... The Winds of Winter ... get it?
Yea, I know its vague but its interesting for Map Guy's groupie formerly kissdbyfire lol.

14 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

There is a huge difference between thinking that the red wedding may be a trap and  the entire story rewrite that the op gave us.

The OP did get a little wild towards the end ... but the title does say "Theory: Bran was tricked"
This is a legitimate topic that does not get discussed enough and it could be a major turning point or twist in TWOW.
It has brought up a lot of good conversations so far (and bets!)
And the OP's story is not a "rewrite"
The story GRRM gave us is just Bran's 10 year old POV.
All of ASOIAF is told from a POV perspective ... which I believe is only 50% of what is actually going on.
The OP is trying to address the other side of ASOIAF that we do not see ... like the mystery of Benjen's disappearance, or Bloodraven's real intentions.

14 hours ago, lalt said:

At this stage, however, I am far more convinced that Bran is the 3EC.

The problem with this is: how does Bran prompted himself to go travel beyond the Wall, with Coldhands waiting for him at the other side ... if Bran is the 3ec and talking to himself?

 

There must be a plausible science to all of this magic and dreaming and telepathy. I really wish I knew the details. Quaithe does it with Dany too.
Perhaps these dreams that our characters get are Bloodraven and Quaithe trying to warg into the characters while sleeping. It might be that simple.
Perhaps Bran and Jon communicated for a second because both of them warged into Ghost in ACOK.
I hope we get a simple answer in TWOW.

 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Please ... no time travel

I'm not talking about time travel.  I'm talking about how Bran or greenseers experience time.  

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw."

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

More specifically, I'm talking about what happened at the Skirling Pass and consequently what happened in the Crypts of Winterfell. Bran has a dream or confused memories of a future event involving himself and Jon before he crosses the Wall and is wed to the tree.  It's not time travel.   It's when Bran appears as a sapling growing before Jon's eyes; that Bran has crossed the threshold of 'seeing' from past to present.   He is affected by it in the crypts.  But there is no real clarity in that experience or memory, only that he may have touched Ghost and talked to Jon.  The actual event at the Skirling Pass is far more precise from Jon's POV.  Bran spoke to Jon and then touched Ghost activating Jon's 3rd eye.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. He wished Robb were with them now. I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

A vast blue-white wall plugged one end of the vale, squeezing between the mountains as if it had shouldered them aside, and for a moment he thought he had dreamed himself back to Castle Black. Then he realized he was looking at a river of ice several thousand feet high. Under that glittering cold cliff was a great lake, its deep cobalt waters reflecting the snowcapped peaks that ringed it. There were men down in the valley, he saw now; many men, thousands, a huge host. Some were tearing great holes in the half-frozen ground, while others trained for war. He watched as a swarming mass of riders charged a shield wall, astride horses no larger than ants. The sound of their mock battle was a rustling of steel leaves, drifting faintly on the wind. Their encampment had no plan to it; he saw no ditches, no sharpened stakes, no neat rows of horse lines. Everywhere crude earthen shelters and hide tents sprouted haphazardly, like a pox on the face of the earth. He spied untidy mounds of hay, smelled goats and sheep, horses and pigs, dogs in great profusion. Tendrils of dark smoke rose from a thousand cookfires.

 

So Bran begins Jon's education, but he doesn't express a desire to teach his siblings to fly  until well after he has arrived at BR's cave.   So this power to appear to Jon as a sapling is something that hasn't happened yet in Dance but something that Bran will manifest in his near future.  

[kissdbyfire]

@The Map Guy, it’s a deal!

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

21 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

 

The OP did get a little wild towards the end ... but the title does say "Theory: Bran was tricked"
This is a legitimate topic that does not get discussed enough and it could be a major turning point or twist in TWOW.
It has brought up a lot of good conversations so far (and bets!)
And the OP's story is not a "rewrite"
The story GRRM gave us is just Bran's 10 year old POV.
All of ASOIAF is told from a POV perspective ... which I believe is only 50% of what is actually going on.
The OP is trying to address the other side of ASOIAF that we do not see ... like the mystery of Benjen's disappearance, or Bloodraven's real intentions.

Here's the deal. We are shown that Bran is contacted by the three eyed crow. We are shown the crow trying to get bran to fly and pecking at his forehead. We have Jojen showing up and saying he is here to help bran. His dreams are cryptic at first but make total sense later. After winterfell is sacked, Bran learns to open his third eye and communicate with Jon via ghost and the weirwoods. Bran and crew leave the north and travel beyond the wall and meet an undead ranger who feeds and protects them from the wights en route. Bran and crew finally get to the cave of the ctof and have to fight more wights where they meet the children and the three eyed crow (yes I know there is a theory that the 3EC is not who we meet in the cave but the tinfoil from a decade between books is strong with folks) who tells bran he needs to prepare to fight that is coming. 
The OP didn't give an example of trickery, or how the 3EC is in league with the others, or examples of anything that would back up any statements that are contradictory to everything written as of book 5. The OP just tells us how they would write the story. That isn't addressing anything at all. That is just Fan Fic.  

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The OP didn't give an example of trickery, or how the 3EC is in league with the others, or examples of anything that would back up any statements that are contradictory to everything written as of book 5.

Ding ding ding! Bingo!

 

[kissdbyfire]

12 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Don't forget, you owe something like this to Megorova with Rhaego being alive! Ladies first, so you can serve Megorova's term before mines. 

Geez, I honestly can’t say which is more unlikely, yours or @Megorova‘s. I’ll call it a draw and be done w/ it.

 

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I read this as Bloodraven, an albino crow.

Sure.  If Patchface had said 'under the sea, the crow is white as snow', I'd go with Bloodraven.  But that's not what he said.

He says: "...under the sea, the crows (plural) are white as snow."

So is he talking about the White Walkers who are made of snow and ice and cold according to Stannis?  Why does he call them crows? Is he calling them carrion crows since they gather up the dead?

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Don't forget, you owe something like this to Megorova with Rhaego being alive! Ladies first, so you can serve Megorova's term before mines. 

She said that if I was right about Rhaego, then she will burn her ASOIAF books. <- though I think that this sort of gestures are not necessary. It will be enough for me that I was right all along. Though she also said that she will apologize for criticizing my theories (or something among those lines). So, @kissdbyfire - don't forget to use this nickname, when you will be apologizing. (I know, I know. I am so conceited and so sure about me being always right . But, nobody's perfect, and neither am I ).

P.S.

On 5/7/2020 at 12:36 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I did find one thing we agree on... 3EC is not a title! 

Wow! Really wow. Turns out that I have one thing, on which I also agree with you - that the 3EC is not a title. I think that it doesn't pass from one person to his/her successor. I don't think that Bran will become next 3EC, when he will "inherite" after Bloodraven his "the last greenseer" status. Because I'm absolutely sure that the Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar (who is also Quaithe).

Would you like to add "the Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar" to our bet "Rhaego is alive"? (by the way, I'm also stating that Rhaego is alive thanks to Shiera/Quaithe, who was assisting Dany during Rhaego's birth).

[kissdbyfire]

53 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Would you like to add "the Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar" to our bet "Rhaego is alive"? (by the way, I'm also stating that Rhaego is alive thanks to Shiera/Quaithe, who was assisting Dany during Rhaego's birth).

But we never made a bet about Rhaego being alive (he’s dead). Mind you, I’m more than willing to make one now. And yes, double or nothing on Shiera being the 3EC (she’s not). 

But see, this is part of the awesomeness of ASoIaF! Even people who disagree almost all the time on every topic, like the two of us, or me and @The Map Guy, can find something to agree on!

[The Map Guy]

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

More specifically, I'm talking about what happened at the Skirling Pass and consequently what happened in the Crypts of Winterfell. Bran has a dream or confused memories of a future event involving himself and Jon before he crosses the Wall and is wed to the tree.  It's not time travel.   It's when Bran appears as a sapling growing before Jon's eyes; that Bran has crossed the threshold of 'seeing' from past to present.   He is affected by it in the crypts.  But there is no real clarity in that experience or memory, only that he may have touched Ghost and talked to Jon.  The actual event at the Skirling Pass is far more precise from Jon's POV.  Bran spoke to Jon and then touched Ghost activating Jon's 3rd eye.

I'm still trying to understand the science of all this telepathy.
Bran talks to Jon while Jon is warged into Ghost.
Perhaps Bran warged into Ghost as well.
This scenario is different than others though.
Ghost was at a weirwood tree Beyond the Wall.
There should be no warging between either side of the Wall.
Bran is in the Winterfell crypts ... where the roots of Winterfell's weirwood tree are ... probably.
Does this means that telepathy only works when a weirwood tree is near by?

Does anyone recall Bran getting any more three-eyed crow dreams after he left Winterfell? I'm too lazy to investigate right now.

Bloodraven is his own weirwood tree I think, and I know greenseers' magic are only limited to the weirwood trees itself.

Sorry I'm rambling, I'm trying to figure out how Bloodraven's magic works: his 3ec dreams.

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

Bran spoke to Jon and then touched Ghost activating Jon's 3rd eye.

Is the 3rd-eye warging or greenseeing? Jon can already warg. Greenseers are suppose to be rare.

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Bran and crew leave the north and travel beyond the wall and meet an undead ranger who feeds and protects them from the wights en route. Bran and crew finally get to the cave of the ctof and have to fight more wights where they meet the children and the three eyed crow

But I believe this is all staged.
Coldhands "protected" them, until the wights attacked them in the end.
Coldhands deliberately made the journey extra tough and extra long. They got cold and hungry.
When they almost reached their goal, the wights attack. How convenient?
What happens to Bran after he goes into the cave? The CotF said they are magically protected, and they shower Bran with food.

They created a "safe" environment for Bran, so he can feel at home.
The Wall seems extra far away, and wights made camp outside ... it discourages Bran to flee.

Also, where did Coldhands go? Its like they kinda forgot about him, especially with the wight-siege outside.

If Bloodraven's goal is to trick Bran by making him think he is safe ... this is the perfect mummer's dragon.

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.
Human dragon (Targaryen Bloodraven) on a wooden pole (like a tree) ... all CotF/Others are cheering for his evil plan.
What is a mummer's dragon, pray?"
"A cloth dragon on poles," Dany explained. "Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight."
Well Bran and company fought the long cold hungry trip with the wight-siege at the end, but it is all a folly.

The entire trip Beyond the Wall was staged.
Meera even became suspicious.
[...] He said he would take us to this three-eyed crow too. That river we crossed this morning is the same one we crossed four days ago, I swear. We're going in circles."
"Rivers turn and twist," Bran said uncertainly, "and where there's lakes and hills, you need to go around."
"There's been too much going around," Meera insisted, "and too many secrets. I don't like it. I don't like him. And I don't trust him. Those hands of his are bad enough. He hides his face, and will not speak a name. Who is he? What is he? Anyone can put on a black cloak. Anyone, or any thing. He does not eat, he never drinks, he does not seem to feel the cold."

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The OP didn't give an example of trickery, or how the 3EC is in league with the others, or examples of anything that would back up any statements that are contradictory to everything written as of book 5. The OP just tells us how they would write the story. That isn't addressing anything at all. That is just Fan Fic.

Its really not fan-fic. It is more of a theory. And you are correct that it feels underwhelming because the OP didn't list examples.
And a lot of people don't backup their theories though.
Hell, even if people do ... it doesn't always convince others.
Some are quite stubborn about their opinions on certain subjects, especially opinions held on to for years (*cough cough kissdbyfire cough*).
But I believe people are allowed to change their opinions if they received new information.

But I do agree with some of what the OP said.
I do believe Bloodraven is working with the CotF and the Others, BUT there is no Three-Eyed Raven that has been living for thousands of years.
I do believe Bloodraven wants Bran's body, BUT not because Bran is a Stark. It is because Bran is a warg and an easily manipulated crippled child.
The other stuff in the OP I can't seem to follow.

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Geez, I honestly can’t say which is more unlikely, yours or @Megorova‘s. I’ll call it a draw and be done w/ it.

I agreed that it is draw, BUT because Bloodraven=Evil and Rhaego=Alive are both likely!! 

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

He says: "...under the sea, the crows (plural) are white as snow."

So is he talking about the White Walkers who are made of snow and ice and cold according to Stannis?  Why does he call them crows? Is he calling them carrion crows since they gather up the dead?

Or perhaps dead NW members become snow wights?

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

On 5/7/2020 at 5:36 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I did find one thing we agree on... 3EC is not a title! 

Wow! Really wow. Turns out that I have one thing, on which I also agree with you - that the 3EC is not a title. I think that it doesn't pass from one person to his/her successor. I don't think that Bran will become next 3EC, when he will "inherite" after Bloodraven his "the last greenseer" status. Because I'm absolutely sure that the Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar (who is also Quaithe).

Yes! More people agreeing the 3EC is not a title (SUCK IT D&D). It is Bloodraven's nickname given by Bran & Jojen. No one else knows what a 3ec, or a 3EC, or a 3ER are.

But I think Megorova believes Bloodraven and Shiera are on the side of good.
I think they are both working with each other on the side of evil ... Evil Bloodraven as 3ec in Westeros, Evil Shera as Quaithe in Essos.

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

But see, this is part of the awesomeness of ASoIaF!

There are so many mysteries in ASOIAF! There is not one way to read it ...... until we get the answers in the next two books of course.
Some one is gonna get a new nickname by then, and it ain't me!

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

Or perhaps dead NW members become snow wights?

That's what I'm wondering about as well. But then there is Coldhands who isn't a WW and keeps a wary eye for them when he is transporting Bran from the Wall to the cave. 

Although Patchface's under the sea utterance has generally come to be understood as meaning underground.  Which could mean the crows come from the caves of the cotf. Not necessarily BR's cave.  There are a lot of real crows in those caves with Bran and company.  Bloodraven tells Bran that most of them have been ridden or used for second life.  Bran encounters one such when he skinchanges a crow.  One that is filled with anger and bitterness. 

So, I'm thinking that the WW's contain souls of the cotf.  In the prologue of GoT, they also speak a language that might be the old tongue, the language of the cotf.  I got the impression from the encounter with Waymar Royce that they were affecting a kind of contempt.

As to their purpose;  I don't think they are allied with the cotf in Bran's cave.  They may have originated with the cotf during the time of legend and the first war between men and the cotf.  A kind of weapon that was created and got away from them. 

This is speculation with a lot of rabbit holes, so I'm going to stop.  Rabbit holes drive me crazy.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

I'm still trying to understand the science of all this telepathy.
Bran talks to Jon while Jon is warged into Ghost.
Perhaps Bran warged into Ghost as well.
This scenario is different than others though.
Ghost was at a weirwood tree Beyond the Wall.
There should be no warging between either side of the Wall.
Bran is in the Winterfell crypts ... where the roots of Winterfell's weirwood tree are ... probably.
Does this means that telepathy only works when a weirwood tree is near by?

Well, I wouldn't call it science but magic where we don't know all the rules.

Bran has not crossed the Wall when he is in the crypt.  He can now warg at will.  He is warged into Summer when he dreams of Jon.

He should not be able to warg Ghost with the Wall in the way.  Nor has he learned to go into the tree at this point.  He only does that after consuming weirwood paste.

At the Skirling Pass, Jon is warged into Ghost and Bran appears as a weirwood tree with three eyes.  He doesn't appear to Jon as Summer.  That's the major difference between Bran in the crypts and Bran in the cave.  

They are having a silent conversation.  Ghost appears to be the conduit through which Tree-Bran can interact with Jon in his warg dream.  Bran also activates Jon's third eye.  

I don't think any of this originates with Bran in the Crypts.  Instead he dreams of himself in the future touching Ghost and talking to Jon. 

This is when we get into the way in which the wierwood experiences time.  Not flowing in one direction according to BR but the past, present and future all at once.  

So when does this change occur for Bran.  Not in the crypts but in BR's cave when he is wed to the tree and now appears as a tree to John.

So, I'm not talking about time travel here where Bran goes back to the past via weirwood and changes the past.  He can use the weirwood to witness the past only.  

But he does seem to communicate with the living or more specifically Jon and potentially his other siblings because of their unique status: the third eye.  It looks to me like Bran is communicating with John through Ghost (who belongs to the old gods) from a future where he has become the tree and has learned "to see".  Thus giving Bran dreams of the future while he is still in the crypts.

 

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

But we never made a bet about Rhaego being alive (he’s dead). 

? Wasn't "Rhaego is alive" part of our bet?

This:

On 3/21/2020 at 4:12 PM, Megorova said:

It's not a theory, it's a fact (Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, she was assisting Dany during Rhaego's birth, and Rhaego was born alive), because it is written in the book. Here:

 

On 3/21/2020 at 7:36 PM, kissdbyfire said:

On 3/21/2020 at 4:12 PM, Megorova said:

It's not a theory, it's a fact

   

Be real, c’mon! That’s not even a theory, b/c it’s based on nothing from the text, only your wishful thinking. In other words, pure fan fic. And that’s fine, we can all indulge in a little fan fic/mental canon to pass the time and all that. But claiming it’s “not a theory” - which it isn’t, as I said above - “it’s a fact” is laughable and arrogant. I do hope you stick around after you’re proven totally wrong and do a public post about how wrong you were. It can be something very simple, direct and to the point, like this:

 

 

On 3/21/2020 at 8:55 PM, Megorova said:

On 3/21/2020 at 7:36 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I do hope you stick around after you’re proven totally wrong and do a public post about how wrong you were.

Sure. And if I am right, then what kind of post will you write?

 

On 3/21/2020 at 9:01 PM, kissdbyfire said:

If you are proven right I will post:

”Megorova, you are a genius w/o equal in all the universes” “

And right after posting I will make a huge bonfire in my garden, burn all my ASoIaF books, and get as shitfaced as I possibly can. 

 

So, "Rhaego is alive" is part of that theory and our bet. No? I did wrote specifications in ( ), in three parts:

1. Quaithe is Shiera Seastar,

2. she was assisting Dany during Rhaego's birth,

3. Rhaego was born alive.

It's from a Thread "Rhaego? Really??" posted by @Aebram on March 20.

 

You said - "If you are proven right". Right about what exactly? What in you opinion was the subject of our bet? Because Rhaego being alive is one of those three elements that I wrote about in that theory.

Quaithe is Shiera, Rhaego is alive BECAUSE OF SHIERA, because Shiera used magic during Dany's labour, and this magic saved Rhaego. So it's all parts of the same thing. Rhaego is alive because Quaithe is Shiera. And - If Quaithe is Shiera Seastar then Rhaego is alive. One is result of the other. Those two elements are tightly interconnected, and one is not possible without the other.

 

So, is our bet off, or do you accept "Rhaego is alive" as part of it?

P.S. If the bet is still on, I would like to add instead of second part - "she was assisting Dany during Rhaego's birth" this - "The Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar". Because if Rhaego is alive, then it's kind of pointless to separately state that he was saved because of Quaithe's assistance <- this part is the result of "Quaithe is Shiera Seastar", so this second part about assistance of Dany's labour is kind of obvious. Thus I offer three-parts bet phrased like this:

1. Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, 2. The Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar, 3. Rhaego is alive.

How about this?

P.P.S. In my opinion "The 3EC is SS" should be part of this bet, because I'm sure that if Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, then she is also the Three-Eyed Crow, because one is result of the other (i.e. shadowbinder Quaithe = Three-Eyed Crow).

I think that Bloodraven and Shiera are parallels to wizard Merlin and his two lovers - Morgana le Fay, and water fairy Nimue the Lady of the Lake.

Morgana's name in Old Breton means "Sea-born", which is similar to Shiera's name that means "the star of the sea". And in several languages words "shiera" and "quaithe" mean the same thing, in some translations it's either a chain of mountains, or a man-made structure on a water (a pier, or a dock), or a burial mound/long barrow/passage graves. And there's connection between Morgana le Fay and long barrows, it's a Banshee/woman of the fairy mound, which also has connection to the shadow-Queen Morrigan, thru one of Morrigan's avatars - the Battle Crow. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_le_Fay#Etymology_and_origins

"The earliest spelling of the name (found in Geoffrey of Monmouth's Vita Merlini, written c. 1150) is Morgen, which is likely derived from Old Welsh or Old Breton Morgen, meaning "Sea-born" "

"Morgan has been connected with the Irish shapeshifting and multifaced goddess of strife known as the Morrígan ("Great Queen")"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Morrígan

"The name is Mór-Ríoghain in Modern Irish. It has been translated as "great queen" or "phantom queen". "

"She is associated with the banshee of later folklore."

"The Morrígan is mainly associated with war and fate, especially with foretelling doom, death or victory in battle. In this role she often appears as a crow, the badb."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badb

"In Irish mythology, the Badb (Old Irish, pronounced [ˈbaðβ]), or in Modern Irish Badhbh (Irish pronunciation: [ˈba̠u], Munster Irish: [ˈba̠iv])—also meaning "crow"—is a war goddess who takes the form of a crow, and is thus sometimes known as Badb Catha ("battle crow").^[1] She is known to cause fear and confusion among soldiers to move the tide of battle to her favoured side. Badb may also appear prior to a battle to foreshadow the extent of the carnage to come, or to predict the death of a notable person. She would sometimes do this through wailing cries, leading to comparisons with the bean-sídhe (banshee). "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banshee

"Her name is connected to the mythologically important tumuli or "mounds" that dot the Irish countryside"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus

And this tumuli or long barrows in some languages are written as "shiera" (in Japanese) and in some languages as "quia" (in French, English "quay"), Quaithe / the quai.

So I don't believe that the Three-Eyed Crow is Bloodraven, because all this little connections between GRRM's story and characters from Arthurian legends can't be coincidental. There's too many of them for them not to be intentional. Thus GRRM's Bloodraven is a parallel to Merlin, and Shiera/Quaithe/the Three-Eyed Crow is a parallel to Morgana le Fay/ Nimue / shadow queen Morrigan / Battle Crow.

And it was Nimue, who lured Merlin into a trap and binded him to a magic tree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin#Merlin's_end

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake#In_Le_Morte_d'Arthur

So it's likely that it was Shiera, who lured Bloodraven beyond The Wall, tricked him to eat weirwood seed paste, and when he woke up, he was binded to the cave in which he is now.

 

Thus, the dream that Jojen saw is a prove that Bloodraven is not the Three-Eyed Crow. Because it was Bloodraven and the Children who gave the seed paste to Bran and binded him to their cave, and the Three-Eyed Crow is the one who was trying to free him from those weirwood bonds.

ACOK, Bran IV - " “I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains,” he said. “It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them.”

“Did the crow have three eyes?”

Jojen nodded."

So, back on the thread's topic - Yes, Bran was tricked. By the Children, by Bloodraven, and even by Jojen, who lied to him and made him go beyond The Wall, even though the Three-Eyed Crow never intended for Bran to go there. Because the Three-Eyed Crow is not Bloodraven, it's Shiera Seastar. And what Shiera was intending to do, is to save Bran from becoming connected to the Weirwood Network, she wanted to prevent him from becoming greenseer. 

AGOT, Bran III: "Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points."

Bloodraven, and all those Children, that Bran saw thru Hodor's eyes, those Children that, same as Bloodraven, were binded with weirwood roots to that cave, all of them are what Bran saw in his coma-dream, from which the 3EC helped him to awake. If in that dream he fell, then he would have became like Jojen, who is controlled by the Weirwood. That's why Jojen tricked Bran, and lured him to go to the Children, because when they were trying to get Bran the first time, the 3EC saved him.

[LynnS]

Can I add my bet to your list?  I'm betting that the words of House Dayne are "Let the Wicked Tremble".  I got that for no other reason than it came from the High Sparrow.  LOL

[Unacosamedarisa]

I’ve always put down Bloodraven’s mild confusion over being asked if he was the crow down to the way that greendreams work, and the way a greendreamer sees themself compared with how they are seen by others. That is, a person’s appearance to others in greendreams is symbolic. So, Jon sees Bran as a talking weirwood, while Bran sees Jon in the guise of Ghost. Or, Jojen sees Bran as a winged wolf chained down... but Bran never appears to himself as a weirwood or a winged wolf. From Bran’s perspective he’s a boy or a wolf in his dreams. 

Bloodraven has long been associated with crows and ravens... he’s called Bloodraven, he has the raven birthmark, he led the Raven’s Teeth, he (most likely) skinchanged a lot of ravens to spy on people, and he eventually became a crow as a member of the Night’s Watch. It’s the animal he’s mostly associated with, and so, in the weirwood net and the dreams, it’s how he appears to others. But to himself, he appears as a man. Thus he’s a bit confused when Bran asks if he’s the crow (because to Bloodraven he’s appearing to Bran as himself in the dreams), and says he was a crow once (but not now) because he no longer considers himself a brother of the NW. 

 

[The Map Guy]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's what I'm wondering about as well. But then there is Coldhands who isn't a WW and keeps a wary eye for them when he is transporting Bran from the Wall to the cave. 

Or Coldhands is faking his help. He is a ice wight that is no different than any other ice wight. If WW can control wights to swing swords, why can't WW control wights to move their vocal cords to talk? He doesn't have blue eyes because his eyeballs were ripped out

Why does this sound familiar? Perhaps Bloodraven tried to warg into Benjen Stark (who has warging DNA) but Benjen rejected it, ripped his own eyes out. Finally he was murder to be resurrected as a wight called Coldhands. This poor attempt by Bloodraven and his CotF henchmen was botched. Sorry I'm mumbling ... or is it rumbling? Anyways sorry.

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I got the impression from the encounter with Waymar Royce that they were affecting a kind of contempt.

I got the impression that Waymar threatened the WWs, and that was why they dueled (it is important that they dueled honorably)
Gared was 100% captured by the WW, and he was released to the Stark North after the WW made Gared open the Black Gate.
Same thing with Will in HBO GoT.
The direwolf in the first Bran chapter probably came from the Black Gate too.

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well, I wouldn't call it science but magic where we don't know all the rules.

Lol same meaning. Magic must have rules. Conjuring deus-ex-machinas out of nowhere cheats the audience. Magic must follow some rules.
 

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

At the Skirling Pass, Jon is warged into Ghost and Bran appears as a weirwood tree with three eyes.  He doesn't appear to Jon as Summer.  That's the major difference between Bran in the crypts and Bran in the cave.  

They are having a silent conversation.  Ghost appears to be the conduit through which Tree-Bran can interact with Jon in his warg dream.  Bran also activates Jon's third eye.  

I don't think any of this originates with Bran in the Crypts.  Instead he dreams of himself in the future touching Ghost and talking to Jon. 

Not sure if you mis-remembered this, or if you did acknowledged this ... but Bran remembers talking to Jon via Ghost in present time.

He remembered who he was all too well; Bran the boy, Bran the broken. Better Bran the beastling. Was it any wonder he would sooner dream his Summer dreams, his wolf dreams? Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that. He could not understand why Jojen was always trying to pull him back now [Jojen you dick! Bran is learning just fine, stop pulling him back by making him travel to the 3ec!]. Bran used the strength of his arms to squirm to a sitting position. "I have to tell Osha what I saw. Is she here? Where did she go?"
{Bran ACOK VII}

[The Map Guy]

2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Thus he’s a bit confused when Bran asks if he’s the crow (because to Bloodraven he’s appearing to Bran as himself in the dreams), and says he was a crow once (but not now) because he no longer considers himself a brother of the NW. 

DING DING DING! Bloodraven deserted! He seemed perturbed (perhaps even offended) when Bran asked him if he was a crow.

And yes ... there are a lot of confusions and poor explanations when Bran reached Bloodraven's cave. I didn't make sense of a lot things there.
Perhaps they were trying to cover up their farce, but were clumsy explaining things.
And yes I really mean Clumsy.
Even the White Walkers are clumsy. Sam killed a White Walker out of clumsiness and sheer luck. Its like Bloodraven and the White Walkers are stereotypical clumsy cartoon villains. 

 

Oh man ... this screen-name change bet system sounds like a lot fun! 

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Or Coldhands is faking his help. He is a ice wight that is no different than any other ice wight.

He's very different from the ice wights.  For one thing he has a mind and can communicate with Bran and company.  He rides an Elk, he gets information from the crows and raven following him.  His eyes are not blue.  He appears to have been a member of the NW at one point and calls Sam brother.  He knows where the black gate is located and how to open it.  He extracts a binding oath from Sam not to reveal Bran's presence north of the Wall or that he is still alive.  

8 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Gared was 100% captured by the WW, and he was released to the Stark North after the WW made Gared open the Black Gate.

Yes, they let Gared live.  None of the NW know about the Black Gate or where it is or how to open it.   There is no evidence to say that Gared went through the Black Gate or that the WW's have the ability to open it.

10 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Not sure if you mis-remembered this, or if you did acknowledged this ... but Bran remembers talking to Jon via Ghost in present time.

I haven't mis-remembered.  My whole point is that Bran may have dreamed that he touched Ghost and spoke to Jon but he didn't carry out that act until he was able to become the tree that Jon sees.  As you have pointed out, Bran dreams of Jon while warged in Summer and he can't warg Ghost while he is on the wrong side of the Wall.  

When Jon see Bran he has crossed a threshold and has become the tree.  He doesn't need to warg anything anymore.  This is the real event that ripples back through time to Bran's dream in the crypts.  Bran didn't do this from the crypts.  Tree-Bran now experiences time all at once.  He is no longer confined to the river that only runs in one direction.

[Megorova]

 

12 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

But I think Megorova believes Bloodraven and Shiera are on the side of good.

I doubt that Bloodraven is on the side of good. In my opinion he is Shiera's tool, she sacrificed him to the Old Gods to postpone arrival of the Second Long Night until the birth of the Promised Prince, to reduce number of people that will die in result of the Long Night.

I think that Shiera lured Bloodraven beyond The Wall, and tricked him into consuming the weirwood seed paste, without knowning what it is, and what it will do to him. And when he woke up, the weirwood seeds in his body planted roots, that went from his stomach thru his body and binded him to that cave. He can't rip them out of his body, because it will kill him, they grow inside him, thru his internal organs and his bones. The same thing will happen to Bran.

If I'm right, and it was Shiera who did this horrible thing to her boyfriend, then she is not a good person. On the other side, it seems that this sort of sacrifice was a necessity. If she didn't connected Bloodraven to the Weirwood Network all those years ago, then the Long Night would have started many years ago, and Jon, Dany, and Rhaego would have been born already after millions of people were killed by the Others and their Undead Army, or the three of them wouldn't have been born, because by that time the Others would have already killed everything alive.

I think that when millenias ago the Children had their first confrontations with the First Men, they asked help from Old Gods, and Old Gods gave them the Others. Though the Others turned out too vicious, and too hard to control. I think that the Others are children or fruits of the Weirwood trees, and they are connected thru the Weirwood Network. Thus, if someone, like Bloodraven, or all those Children that Bran saw thru Hodor's eyes, that were binded by weirwood roots, and created a Network, all of them are able to connect to the Others, and partially control them.

Bloodraven is half-Targaryen, and dragon blood is a very powerful magical substance. Targaryens are blood of the dragon, thus their blood is very potent. Thus someone like Bloodraven has a very high level of magic ability, and because of his blood he was able to hold back the Others for those four decades, that he was binded to the Weirwood Network.

But now he can't hold them back, because the Weirwood is a parasite that feeds on blood and spiritual force, thus it ate not only Bloodraven's body, but also consumed his soul. There's nearly nothing left of him, like the Children said - he nearly entirely went into the tree. Thus, because he nearly has no will left, it's hard for him to control the Others, and because the sole mission of the Others' existance is to kill everything that is alive, they also want to kill Bloodraven and the Children that are locked with him in that cave. And it's understandable that they don't want to die. They created the Others, and the Others is a threat to everything alive, including to those who created them (the Children). The Children can't destroy the Others, possibly they either don't know how, or they don't have that sort of power. So the only thing that they could have done in those circumstances, is to give people (humans, giants, animals, greenseers, the Children) as sacrifices to the Weirwood Network, for those people to become "Operators" of the Weirwood, and to hold back the Others, until will be born new Azor Ahai, who will be able to destroy the Others.

So the Children are not exactly evil. They are just victims of circumstances, same as Bloodraven. When they asked Old Gods to give them help to get rid of the First Men, they didn't knew what they were getting into, and what kind of consequences it will have in the future.

And Shiera, based on her superior knowledge and magical abilities, did what she could. Her goal is to save the world, though on her path to it, she did a lot of things that are not good deeds. For example, I think that Euron is Shiera's creation. I think that he was one of her disciples, that's why he knows so much about magic, and why his nickname is the Crow's Eye - that's because his dark eye thru blood magic is connected to Shiera/the 3EC, and she is able to see thru his eye, and she was using him as her tool, her spy. But he turned against her, and now all that knowledge that she gave him, including all she knew about upcoming Long Night, he is using for his own goals, and he's covering his dark eye to prevent Shiera from spying after him.

Can Shiera be concidered a good person, if she's the one who is responsible for Euron? I don't concider her to be good. But neither is she evil. GRRM's writing is in all shades of grey, not black and white. There are no white heroes, or absolutely evil people in ASOIAF. So, it's kind of complicated.

[LynnS]

55 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

I’ve always put down Bloodraven’s mild confusion over being asked if he was the crow down to the way that greendreams work, and the way a greendreamer sees themself compared with how they are seen by others. That is, a person’s appearance to others in greendreams is symbolic. So, Jon sees Bran as a talking weirwood, while Bran sees Jon in the guise of Ghost. Or, Jojen sees Bran as a winged wolf chained down... but Bran never appears to himself as a weirwood or a winged wolf. From Bran’s perspective he’s a boy or a wolf in his dreams. 

Jon has no idea that Bran is with BR or has been wed to the weirwood.  So how can Jon perceive him as a weirwood sapling unless this is how Bran is projecting himself?

Bran says he touched Ghost and talked to Jon.  Bran is aware that Jon is warged and can see him.  John says Bran talked to him and then touched Ghost activating Jon's 3rd eye.  

We're talking about 3rd eye capabilities in both Jon and Bran.  This tells us something about Bran's new powers and how Bran is able to communicate with Jon through Ghost.

As for Bloodraven, there is almost nothing left of the man and he will shortly expire.  I think this accounts for his mild confusion.  I question what kind of powers BR has left to him beside entering dreams , watching and reporting to the cotf about what he sees.  Bran also talks about tree dreams and crow dreams, sometimes together.  This suggests that the crow and the tree are two different things.

ETA:  I also think of Bran, Arya and Jon as BR's apprentices.  Bran apprentice greenseer, Arya apprentice FM and Jon apprentice Lord Commander and perhaps more.  If Bran is late coming to BR's cave; then perhaps BR needs Jon to take the role of 3EC from him.