Azor ahai will never be definitively answered

[King Adrian Storm]

We will never truly know who azor ahai is. I think it will be left ambiguous to the reader so we can discuss it. It will be similar to the red comet where everyone has their own take on what it is. Some will think it’s Jon, some will think it’s dany and her dragons, if stannis lives to see the final battle people may think it’s him, or maybe even bran with his weirwood powers. Some may even say it’s rhaegar, and Jon is lightbringer. My point is we will never get a definitive answer.

I doubt there will be a cliche moment where say Jon rises from the darkness with a flaming sword and defeats all of the others himself. I think grrm, will leave it subtle. All of the heroes will work together to defeat them. I know some people think azor ahai is a group of people, but I don’t think that’s what George is going for. I think it will remain ambiguous to us.

[Bowen Marsh]

The question has been answered.  Daenerys Targaryen is Azor Ahai.  All the signs are there.  If you mean, will George spell it out directly, perhaps not.  But the text are clear.  She is Azor Ahai. 

[King Adrian Storm]

51 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

The question has been answered.  Daenerys Targaryen is Azor Ahai.  All the signs are there.  If you mean, will George spell it out directly, perhaps not.  But the text are clear.  She is Azor Ahai. 

I don't know if it's already been answered. Grrm is subtle with his prophecies. I think with Daenerys he gave literal/in your face answers to the prophecy. Wake dragons from stone, she literally raised dragons from stone. Red star bleeds, a literal red star was in the sky. It could be a distraction for less obvious answers to Jon being azor ahai. For example, the red star could refer to the bloody 5 pointed star ser Patrek is wearing when Jon is killed. Waking dragons from stone could refer to Melisandre buring Shireen (Greyscale), and waking Jon (the dragon). Just a couple of examples.

[zandru]

I suspect the whole "Azor Ahai" schtick is a red herring, a BS story that Melisandre is conning Stannis with. Much like her bargain basement "Lightbringer."

The Melisandre chapter that we've seen so far was deeply disturbing. Even poor fanatic Aeron Greyjoy seemed  more honest.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, zandru said:

I suspect the whole "Azor Ahai" schtick is a red herring, a BS story that Melisandre is conning Stannis with. Much like her bargain basement "Lightbringer."

I agree that Mel, despite having some actual powers, is pretty clueless about a lot of stuff. For instance, I think that her zooming in on Stannis is a misunderstanding of whatever Red Rahloo showed her in the flames. I am also not at all convinced AA/AAR is a good guy. All that said, at least Salladhor Saan, maester Aemon, and Benerro know about this legend/prophecy.

1 minute ago, zandru said:

The Melisandre chapter that we've seen so far was deeply disturbing. Even poor fanatic Aeron Greyjoy seemed  more honest.

Yeah, Mel is a zealot. She’s scary, and she’s full of tricks and deception... 

And LOL re the Damphair!

[chrisdaw]

7 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

I doubt there will be a cliche moment where say Jon rises from the darkness with a flaming sword and defeats all of the others himself. I think grrm, will leave it subtle.

He'll execute Dany, and his sword will take flame. Dany will be reborn as a huge dragon. Jon will mount it, and they will fight the ice dragon. He'll defeat the ice dragon by plunging his flaming sword into its blue crystal eye, and fall to his death, no-one is likely to see and few will know. And without the ice dragon the Others will all die (probably its wings refract the sunlight and allow the Others to travel beneath - Long Night, and when Jon kills the dragon the direct sunlight kills them, Long Night over). It won't be anything like subtle.

[King Adrian Storm]

Why would Jon need to kill Dany to create a dragon, when she already has 3? Plus I doubt Jon will have to kill Dany to create a flaming sword. Beric could do it, without stabbing someone in the chest. 

[chrisdaw]

48 minutes ago, King Adrian Storm said:

Why would Jon need to kill Dany to create a dragon, when she already has 3? Plus I doubt Jon will have to kill Dany to create a flaming sword. Beric could do it, without stabbing someone in the chest. 

Dany's dragons (well only one is really hers) will die or be lost to her enemies. She and the other riders should use them to save the world from the Others, instead they will use them against each other fighting for the throne in the dance of dragons. Theme of the story, humans need to put differences aside and work together lest everyone loses.

Jon won't kill Dany to create a flaming sword, Jon will execute Dany because he will judge she deserves it, or kill her as part of a battle. When he does so part of her blood and soul will go into the Valyrian steel and the sword will flame, because Dany's soul and blood are fire (as demonstrated in her house words, a bunch of dreams and visions, her spending a night in a fire, and the child that was in her womb sharing her blood being a literal little dragon), and that's what Lightbringer is, a (partly) second lifed sword.

Quote

It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel.

[Rose of Red Lake]

14 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

We will never truly know who azor ahai is. I think it will be left ambiguous to the reader so we can discuss it. It will be similar to the red comet where everyone has their own take on what it is. Some will think it’s Jon, some will think it’s dany and her dragons, if stannis lives to see the final battle people may think it’s him, or maybe even bran with his weirwood powers. Some may even say it’s rhaegar, and Jon is lightbringer. My point is we will never get a definitive answer.

I doubt there will be a cliche moment where say Jon rises from the darkness with a flaming sword and defeats all of the others himself. I think grrm, will leave it subtle. All of the heroes will work together to defeat them. I know some people think azor ahai is a group of people, but I don’t think that’s what George is going for. I think it will remain ambiguous to us.

Yup, it sounds cheesy af. A good sign that some boilerplate fantasy tropes will be slayed.

[Josette DuPres]

20 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

We will never truly know who azor ahai is. I think it will be left ambiguous to the reader so we can discuss it. It will be similar to the red comet where everyone has their own take on what it is. Some will think it’s Jon, some will think it’s dany and her dragons, if stannis lives to see the final battle people may think it’s him, or maybe even bran with his weirwood powers. Some may even say it’s rhaegar, and Jon is lightbringer. My point is we will never get a definitive answer.

I doubt there will be a cliche moment where say Jon rises from the darkness with a flaming sword and defeats all of the others himself. I think grrm, will leave it subtle. All of the heroes will work together to defeat them. I know some people think azor ahai is a group of people, but I don’t think that’s what George is going for. I think it will remain ambiguous to us.

I'm in agreement with Bowen Marsh because the question has been answered.  The identity of Azor Ahai was answered in a satisfactory way to me.  It may not be for you if you don't like that person.  I happen to like Dany and am satisfied. 

17 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

The question has been answered.  Daenerys Targaryen is Azor Ahai.  All the signs are there.  If you mean, will George spell it out directly, perhaps not.  But the text are clear.  She is Azor Ahai. 

 

[Megorova]

Azor Ahai is three people, not one, that's why majority of readers will never comprehend who Azor Ahai was in the series. Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised, and the Dragon with three heads, is all the same thing - the Holy Trinity of ASOIAF - the Mother/Dany, the Son/Rhaego, the Holy Ghost/Jon. Each of them fulfill part of the prophecy about Second Long Night and Azor Ahai reborn. Rhaego was born under the Bleeding Star comet; Dany awakened dragons from stone; Jon will become next Sword of the Morning, wielder of Lightbringer/Dawn, ancestral sword of House Dayne. It seems to me that first Azor Ahai was ancestor of House Dayne, and also ancestor of Valyrians. I think that originally he was R'hllor's Red Priest in Asshai, and he saw in a fire-vision the falling of a Star from which he later forged Lightbringer/Dawn. And after the First Long Night ended, he took his people and went with them to Westeros, to Dorne, to the site of a fallen Star, where he build Starfall (where later was conceived Jon, the next Azor Ahai). It seems likely that Jon was conceived at Starfall on Christmas Eve, and he was born on autumnal equinox, 23rd September 283 (GRRM used the date of autumnal equinox of 1983 - 23rd September). If my guesses are correct, then Jon's sign of Zodiac is Libra, which is an Air Sign. Libra's guardian planet is Venus, which in Latin is also named Lucifer, which also translates as lightbringer. Venus is also named the Star of the Morning, and the weilder of Dawn is titled the Sword of the Morning. So Dawn and Lightbringer is the same sword, and Jon, who is going to be the Sword of the Morning, is Azor Ahai reborn. Furthermore, Dany and Rhaego, same as Jon, are also Air Signs. Dany is Gemini, and Rhaego is Aquarius. GRRM said that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. Based on information known about Robert's Rebellion, I calculated dates and distances, and made conclusion about when was Lyanna kidnapped, when Jon was conceived and born (on September of 283), 8-9 months after Jon's birth is May-June of 284. I made additional calculation based on information about Dany's travels with Dothraki, when was her 13th birthday (6 months prior her wedding with Drogo, when was her 14th birthday (on this day she realised that she's pregnant), when Rhaego was born (the Bleeding Star appeared above Westeros on the day of Joffrey's birthday; next year he died on the first day of year 300, prior his birthday of that year; it is known that Jon Arryn died 14 days after Joffrey's birthday, and it was not long after the beginning of a year 298. Which means that Joffrey's birthday is in January or February). There was a lot of additional information, and based on all that data, I made conclusion that Rhaego was born in late January-early February, which match with Aquarius dates - January 21 - February 20. If my calculations are correct, and all three of them are really Air Signs, then GRRM gave it as an additional clue that all three of them are going to be dragonriders. Dany's dragon is Drogon. Rhaego's dragon is going to be Rhaegal. And Jon's dragon is going to be Viserion. <- I'm basing this on a lot of clues from AGOT. For example this - "

She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

Only death can pay for life.

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world."   

"Finally the crone opened her eye and lifted her arms. “I have seen his face, and heard the thunder of his hooves,” she proclaimed in a thin, wavery voice.

“The thunder of his hooves!” the others chorused.

“As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name.” The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. “The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world.” "

"Over the carcass of the horse, they built a platform of hewn logs; trunks of smaller trees and limbs from the greater, and the thickest straightest branches they could find. They laid the wood east to west, from sunrise to sunset. On the platform they piled Khal Drogo’s treasures"

The second egg, Rhaegal's, hatched when the fire went under the logs and got to the horse's body. This egg hatched with the sound of thunder, and screams of horses and voices of Dothraki. And dosh khaleen said that they hear thunder of the Stallion's hooves, when they were predicting Rhaego's birth. Thus Rhaego is going to be Rhaegal's rider. Rhaego isn't dead, just wait for TWOW, Dany will be reunited with her son in the next book. The last egg hatched with the sound of the breaking of the world, because Drogon's rider, Dany, later became the Breaker of Chains, she broke existing world order in which slavery was a norm, and instead gave freedom to people. The first egg, pale and gold, which is Viserion's egg, hatched with the sound of shattering stone. That's because Jon is the stone dragon, this - "From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire… mother of dragons, slayer of lies". The last lie to slay is a lie about Jon's birth.

So, all three of them together fulfill the prophecy. Rhaego was born under the Bleeding Star, Dany awakened dragons from stone, Jon will wield Lightbringer. The dragon/Azor Ahai is a singular being, but because the dragon has three heads, all three of them together is the dragon/Prince/Azor Ahai reborn. And all three of them are descendants of Aerys II, and the Ghost of High Heart/Jenny's woodswitch predicted that the Promised Prince will be Aerys' descendant. So it's his daughter, and his two grandsons.

[zandru]

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

Azor Ahai is three people, not one, ....

You know, I hate to see the irrelevancies of the Christian religion thrown into ASOIAF as if they're meaningful. Ditto for astrology based upon our solar system. Westeros doesn't use our month system, either. I hope you don't consider this to be "unsupportive", but I do not buy your formulation.

[Megorova]

9 hours ago, zandru said:

You know, I hate to see the irrelevancies of the Christian religion thrown into ASOIAF

But that's what GRRM is writing - “The dragon has three heads.” - ACOK, Dany IV. Furthermore, all this Long Night, the Promised Prince, the Stallion that mounts the world, the Bleeding Star, Rhaego's separation from Dany, mummers dragon, undead white walkers - all this is from the Book of Revelation, last part of the Bible. So it's not me who's throwing Christian religion into ASOIAF, it's the Author.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

But that's what GRRM is writing - “The dragon has three heads.” - ACOK, Dany IV. Furthermore, all this Long Night, the Promised Prince, the Stallion that mounts the world, the Bleeding Star, Rhaego's separation from Dany, mummers dragon, undead white walkers - all this is from the Book of Revelation, last part of the Bible. So it's not me who's throwing Christian religion into ASOIAF, it's the Author.

Nope. That’s your interpretation of the text and of the author’s intentions. 

[Springwatch]

On 4/28/2020 at 9:01 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I agree that Mel, despite having some actual powers, is pretty clueless about a lot of stuff. For instance, I think that her zooming in on Stannis is a misunderstanding of whatever Red Rahloo showed her in the flames. I am also not at all convinced AA/AAR is a good guy. All that said, at least Salladhor Saan, maester Aemon, and Benerro know about this legend/prophecy.

You're too hard on Mel - she's at the top of her profession, and from her thoughts we see she has no ego/self-deception at all - she just wants to be the perfect servant of the red god.

Anyway, if I remember it right, she saw Stannis raising lightbringer against the dark. If Rhllor doesn't mean Mel should focus on Stannis, then he should really work harder on clarifying his message.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 4/28/2020 at 4:01 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I agree that Mel, despite having some actual powers, is pretty clueless about a lot of stuff. For instance, I think that her zooming in on Stannis is a misunderstanding of whatever Red Rahloo showed her in the flames.

 

Mel is a fanatic, there's no doubt. I think she is more a case of trying to fit the visions to the prophecy and she tries to get ahead of the visions which causes more problems than it solves. For instance, I don't think she was wrong about the grey girl fleeing her marriage bed. I think it might have been Jeyne Poole she was referring to rather than Alys Karstark. The geography coming from Karhold to Castle Black does not fit what she told Mance when she described what she saw. 

I'm very curious to know what her vision was that she assumed it was Stannis and has been holding firm on it to the extent that she doesn't seem to understand what she's seeing in the flames. 

I feel a bit more sympathy toward her than I initially did.

Quote

I am also not at all convinced AA/AAR is a good guy. All that said, at least Salladhor Saan, maester Aemon, and Benerro know about this legend/prophecy.

As far as AA goes, if R'hllor has its human champion, then I think the Great Other should have its own champion as well because balance has to be struck. That's going to be Euron. 

[Texas Hold Em]

On 4/28/2020 at 2:27 PM, Bowen Marsh said:

The question has been answered.  Daenerys Targaryen is Azor Ahai.  All the signs are there.  If you mean, will George spell it out directly, perhaps not.  But the text are clear.  She is Azor Ahai. 

Amen

[chrisdaw]

On 4/29/2020 at 10:22 PM, Josette DuPres said:

I'm in agreement with Bowen Marsh because the question has been answered.  The identity of Azor Ahai was answered in a satisfactory way to me.  It may not be for you if you don't like that person.  I happen to like Dany and am satisfied. 

That interpretations requires you to ignore most the text we are given about AA.

Quote

 

"Burnt," said Salladhor Saan, "and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

 

As if that was written for no reason.

It also means that the author introduced a great prophecy for an event (straight) after the event. That's not how writing works.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

You're too hard on Mel - she's at the top of her profession, and from her thoughts we see she has no ego/self-deception at all - she just wants to be the perfect servant of the red god.

She’s a zealot who is willing to burn children alive. She’s all for “the end justifies the means”, even if she can’t be certain of what “end” she'll get by employing whatever means. I don’t think it’s possible to be too hard on someone like that. She’s at the top of her profession? How so? And she has an enormous ego, she’s all about proving how right she is. For instance, her trickery w/ the leeches. Her seeing the girl in grey and affirming it’s Jon’s sister - b/c she wants to win him over. She tells of a vision and when asked if it was EbtS she saw, she says “yes”, and then thinks, “well, it must be, right?” So she deceives herself and others, sometimes knowingly, and other times unknowingly. She makes too many mistakes b/c, as @Alexis-something-Rose said, she tries to force things to get to the result or interpretation she wants. 

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Anyway, if I remember it right, she saw Stannis raising lightbringer against the dark. If Rhllor doesn't mean Mel should focus on Stannis, then he should really work harder on clarifying his message.

Did she? I don’t remember this at all. What I do remember is that she was looking for AA b/c Rahloo sent her whatever vision and ended up n Dragonstone. At one point she becomes convinced Stannis is AA. And it’s only after all of this that she sees him wielding Lightbringer. That’s how I remember, but I could be wrong, I haven’t reread these passages in a long time. 

And even the sword she gives Stannis is a fake, and she has to know it is a fake. 

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 

Mel is a fanatic, there's no doubt. I think she is more a case of trying to fit the visions to the prophecy and she tries to get ahead of the visions which causes more problems than it solves. For instance, I don't think she was wrong about the grey girl fleeing her marriage bed. I think it might have been Jeyne Poole she was referring to rather than Alys Karstark. The geography coming from Karhold to Castle Black does not fit what she told Mance when she described what she saw. 

I'm very curious to know what her vision was that she assumed it was Stannis and has been holding firm on it to the extent that she doesn't seem to understand what she's seeing in the flames. 

Not sure about the girl in grey... Possible, but for now I’m satisfied w/ Alys. 

Totally agree w/ Mel trying to fit the visions to the prophecy, and other visions to whatever suits her at any given moment. 

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I feel a bit more sympathy toward her than I initially did.

She’s a very interesting character, and I’d love to get more PoVs from her. But I feel no sympathy towards her. Like, none!

 

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

As far as AA goes, if R'hllor has its human champion, then I think the Great Other should have its own champion as well because balance has to be struck. That's going to be Euron. 

Yup, agree. 

[Springwatch]

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

She’s a zealot who is willing to burn children alive. She’s all for “the end justifies the means”, even if she can’t be certain of what “end” she'll get by employing whatever means. I don’t think it’s possible to be too hard on someone like that.

You said she was clueless, and I replied you were too hard on her - but even the moral case is not as clear as it would be in real life. In fantasy Planetos there is already Asshai, and the doom on Valyria, and winter is definitely coming - so we can't totally dismiss a Long Night and the destruction of humanity. Prophecy is a genuine thing too, so the zealots may be right (see also, Rhaegar). That changes the perspective to a moral dilemma - would you kill hundreds to save billions?

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

She’s at the top of her profession? How so?

Quote

R'hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practised her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed withing the sacred flames.

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And she has an enormous ego,

Quote

"An ant who hears the word of a king may not comprehend what he is saying," Melisandre said, "and all men are ants before the fiery face of god. If sometimes I have mistaken a warning for a prophecy or a prophecy for a warning, the fault lies in the reader, not the book...."

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

she’s all about proving how right she is. For instance, her trickery w/ the leeches.

An impressive trick (if it was a trick). She also said it would not work as Stannis wished.

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Her seeing the girl in grey and affirming it’s Jon’s sister - b/c she wants to win him over. She tells of a vision and when asked if it was EbtS she saw, she says “yes”, and then thinks, “well, it must be, right?” So she deceives herself and others, sometimes knowingly, and other times unknowingly. She makes too many mistakes b/c, as @Alexis-something-Rose said, she tries to force things to get to the result or interpretation she wants. 

Your measure for her competence is how useful she is to Jon - how accurate and relevant her predictions are for him. That's not the same as her measure for success, which is to gain control of both Stannis and Jon. All in the service of rhllor, of course.

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Did she? I don’t remember this at all. What I do remember is that she was looking for AA b/c Rahloo sent her whatever vision and ended up n Dragonstone. At one point she becomes convinced Stannis is AA. And it’s only after all of this that she sees him wielding Lightbringer. That’s how I remember, but I could be wrong, I haven’t reread these passages in a long time. 

Quote

[Stannis] "How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies... a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone... she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?" He ground his teeth. "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must... we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!" Stannis gave a derisive snort. "It glimmers prettily, I'll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel. A dragon would have turned that battle...."

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And even the sword she gives Stannis is a fake, and she has to know it is a fake. 

This is such a key point, and I have no explanation for it. Why did Mel, who is constantly working to make Stannis trust her and need her (with the prophecies, with the leech trick) - why did she not work harder to make Lightbringer more convincing? A bit of human sacrifice would have livened up the ceremony no end, and cost no magic at all. Why does she give Stannis (who she believes genuine) a sword she believes fake? All I can think of is that the ceremony was not her own creation, but something she was given and believes in so totally she dare not change a detail.