The Starks and Revenge

[SeanF]

19 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Let’s not talk about that abomination. In D&D’s eyes, the whole story was about playing the game and winning a crown.

I've just been having that argument with someone at length on Quora.

His view is that Martin's big theme is that considerations of right and wrong are irrelevant to the conduct of public affairs.  What succeeds is "right" and what fails is "wrong."

I think he's misunderstood the tale.  

[Impbread]

On 4/28/2020 at 12:39 PM, King Adrian Storm said:

Grrm likes to use the theme of revenge for the Stark's, but he uses it in a way you wouldn't expect. Most fantasy books have a hero who's out for revenge and usually they end up getting it, and killing the bad guys. Grrm uses the theme that everytime the Stark's try to do something out of revenge... they fail. Ned goes to Kingslanding to get revenge on the people who murdered Jon Arryn, and he's killed. Rob goes to war to get revenge for his father, and he gets killed. Jon tries to get revenge on Ramsay at the end of Adwd, and he's immediately killed.

This is why I think Stannis is going to have to be the one to take back Winterfell. It fits with how Grrm uses revenge for the Starks. 

There are a couple of objections to this theory.

1. What about Catelyn? Well she's not technically a Stark, she's a Tully. Also, Lady Stoneheart is a completely different character from Catelyn. 

2. Arya is most likely going to start killing people out of revenge. Yes, this is probably true, but I think that Arya's arc will end with her giving up revenge. I think she'll start killing people and become a dark character, then she gets the chance to kill Cersei, and at the last second she'll back out, before the darkness consumes her.

Jon wasn't trying to get revenge on Ramsey. Ramsey threatened Jon and the Nights Watch  so he decided to march on him because of that. It was more an act of preservation. 

[Wolf's Bane]

12 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

A lot of undeserving people are gonna get hurt because of that.  Jon will come back with an even bigger chip on his shoulders.  Arya is already mentally ill and will only get worse with each murder.  Rickon is growing up with savages.  But maybe he's too young yet to create too much suffering.   It won't look good for anybody who ever crossed the Starks.  Honorable people like Bowen Marsh are gonna get killed.  The Stark's fans are gonna be pumping their fist but the fair minded among us will dislike the Starks even more.

Jon Snow murdered that man.  There was not enough justification to do that.  Jon was itching to commit that murder.  That boy is sick.  Nothing positive came out of that killing.  Jon took another step towards complete corruption and misuse of authority.

 

Well-said.  I can agree.  Revenge and justice are not the same.  Jon, Arya, Manderly, and Lady Stoneheart have forgotten the significant difference. 

[Wolf's Bane]

3 hours ago, Impbread said:

Jon wasn't trying to get revenge on Ramsey. Ramsey threatened Jon and the Nights Watch  so he decided to march on him because of that. It was more an act of preservation. 

They were both wrong but Jon started that problem.  He couldn't stay out of Ramsay's business and dragged the NW into something it should never do. 

[teej6]

46 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Revenge and justice are not the same.  Jon, Arya, Manderly, and Lady Stoneheart have forgotten the significant difference. 

The bolded was clearly stated by the Stark patriarch in the book. You know that person called the Ned.

As to your argument that Jon has forgotten this, he hasn’t, that’s the point of GRRM’s description of Jon’s dealing/ relationship with Slynt. GRRM clearly lays out Jon’s thoughts on the matter. Although we are shown he dislikes Slynt and he thinks there is blood between them, he never acts on those impulses, instead he gives Janos Slynt command of Greyguard. He even thinks to himself “I am giving you a chance, my lord. It is more than you ever gave my father.” These are not the thoughts of a man seeking revenge. Jon’s motives in his dealing with Slynt were not revenge but strategic. He knew Slynt was a threat to his authority, so he wanted to put as much distance between Slynt and himself. The fact is, Slynt was too ignorant and arrogant to realize that and take the opportunity. Instead, the idiot thought he could bully Jon and continuously disobey the commands of his LC, and his cronies would support him if it came to a head on with Jon. Even in the end, the ignoramus thinks Thorne and the others will back him and fight their LC. But unfortunately for him, they had better sense and didn’t. Here I’ve quoted the passage where GRRM shows us Jon’s thoughts before he gives the order to execute Slynt: 

Quote

“As you will.” Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. “Please take Lord Janos to the Wall—”—and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again.—and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him? “—and hang him,” Jon finished.

Do you see any hint of revenge in Jon’s thoughts? No. 

I don’t think in many medieval military orders you could continue to disobey and undermine the authority of the commander of said order and insult and call him names in the front of the rest of the men and not be hanged by the neck for it. So no, Jon’s killing of Slynt was not an act of revenge, it was the natural application of a disciplinary action in a martial order upon a disobedient subordinate who directly threatened/ undermined the authority of the leader of the order and indirectly threatened the order itself.

But hey, I’m not going to convince you or anyone who continues to sing the song that Jon is evuul song, so cheers!

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, teej6 said:

But hey, I’m not going to convince you or anyone who continues to sing the song that Jon is evuul song, so cheers!

Indeed. Another reason why we need TWoW. I’m thinking a whole bunch of posters are going to hate it w/ a vengeance. Can’t. Wait.

[teej6]

40 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed. Another reason why we need TWoW. I’m thinking a whole bunch of posters are going to hate it w/ a vengeance. Can’t. Wait.

Yeah me too. And I do hope these usual suspects stick around this site when TWoW comes out. I would love to see their melt down when their Jon is evil/ will turn evil argument totally breaks down.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 4/30/2020 at 6:43 AM, Adam Yozza said:

Ah, typical Stark haters. I wondered when you'd show up. So, tell me. Did Jon not offer Slynt command of a castle on the wall? Did he not, when Slynt refused those orders, offer him a second and third chance? Are we not present in Jon's mind as he goes through the possible solutions to this problem and see that at that point, there really wasn't any other option but to kill him? Revenge never enters into it.

As for the Bolton's are you just being willfully blind to the fact that Ramsay had just threatened to destroy the NW if his demands were not met? Demands that, along with being morally questionable, are also impossible to meet because the NW doesn't have the people in question. 

Did you forget, Jon Snow was anticipating killing Slynt? Hell, he was sharpening his sword to prepare to murder the man.  Slynt was guilty of minor insubordination, much less offensive than Jon Snow attacking Aliser Thorne.  The man should have been confined to a cell for a time.  Killing the man was out of line.

I'm not the one acting blind, sir.  You are evidently, suffering from a brain fart.  Ramsay threatened the NW because Jon Snow sent his man, Mance Rayder, to get Arya.  Jon Snow got himself involved in something he had no business in.  What Jon Snow did was an attack on the Boltons. 

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

The younger Starks like Jon have no understanding of what justice is. Oh it's fine when they do something wrong but they go to extremes when it's somebody else.  

I hope you two don't get this topic locked. It isn't fair to the OP.  It's easy to overlook rudeness instead of responding in kind. It's only about fiction.  

[Adam Yozza]

1 hour ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Did you forget, Jon Snow was anticipating killing Slynt? Hell, he was sharpening his sword to prepare to murder the man.  Slynt was guilty of minor insubordination, much less offensive than Jon Snow attacking Aliser Thorne.  The man should have been confined to a cell for a time.  Killing the man was out of line.

I'm not the one acting blind, sir.  You are evidently, suffering from a brain fart.  Ramsay threatened the NW because Jon Snow sent his man, Mance Rayder, to get Arya.  Jon Snow got himself involved in something he had no business in.  What Jon Snow did was an attack on the Boltons. 

 

Er, nope. Sorry but you clearly need to re-read those books again mate. But if it helps, another post further up quoted the relevent section for you. That whole chapter, Jon plans to send Janos to command Greyguard in spite of the bad blood between. This is plainly clear, given that we are in Jon's head and are aware of his though process! He gives Slynt multiple chances to obey this command. Not only does Slynt refuse his orders he also publiclly insults his CO.

Then, when Jon does act, we see his rationale. If he imprisons Slynt, he will just start plotting again. If he forces him to Greyguard, he will desert and possibly take more men with him. At that point, death is the only option that would not undermine Jon's leadership and it doubles as making an example that insubordination won't be tolerated.

As for Ramsey, Jon did not send Mance to attack the Bolton's. He sent Mance as an escort for a refugee, which breaks no laws nor even customs. Mance then abandoned his mission and took matters into his own hands. Jon only has partial responsibility here. Plus, Ramsey didn't send the Pink Letter because of Mance. He sent it because he's Ramsey; a deranged lunatic who gets off on others pain. You actually think he wouldn't have threatened them in the exact same way if Mance hadn't been involved? Shireen, Selyse and Melisandre are all still at the NW anyway. Ramsey would have just demanded them only, instead of Val, Reek and 'Arya' too.

Plus, even if we actually consider that Jon was 100% responsible for Mance and legally in the wrong for interfering with the Bolton's that still leaves him with the moral high ground. No normal thinking human being would condemn Jon for rescuing a girl from a monster such as Ramsey.

[Tai Pan]

7 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Did you forget, Jon Snow was anticipating killing Slynt? Hell, he was sharpening his sword to prepare to murder the man.  Slynt was guilty of minor insubordination, much less offensive than Jon Snow attacking Aliser Thorne.  The man should have been confined to a cell for a time.  Killing the man was out of line.

I'm not the one acting blind, sir.  You are evidently, suffering from a brain fart.  Ramsay threatened the NW because Jon Snow sent his man, Mance Rayder, to get Arya.  Jon Snow got himself involved in something he had no business in.  What Jon Snow did was an attack on the Boltons. 

 

Jon was going to hide Arya Bolton away from her husband.  He was going to hide her overseas.  Jon was putting his long chin where it did not belong. 

[Adam Yozza]

6 hours ago, Tai Pan said:

Jon was going to hide Arya Bolton away from her husband.  He was going to hide her overseas.  Jon was putting his long chin where it did not belong. 

Arya Stark actually. At the time he sent Mance, under the belief that Arya was already on her way North, she wasn't married. So your little, he's breaking the law by taking her from her husband line is invalid anyway and besides the point anyway.

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Tai Pan said:

Jon was going to hide Arya Bolton away from her husband.  He was going to hide her overseas.  Jon was putting his long chin where it did not belong. 

A wedding by force is no wedding.

Standing by as evil is done in front of you and bleating about neutrality is a moral choice.  Just a poor one.

[The Commentator]

18 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Er, nope. Sorry but you clearly need to re-read those books again mate. But if it helps, another post further up quoted the relevent section for you. That whole chapter, Jon plans to send Janos to command Greyguard in spite of the bad blood between. This is plainly clear, given that we are in Jon's head and are aware of his though process! He gives Slynt multiple chances to obey this command. Not only does Slynt refuse his orders he also publiclly insults his CO.

Then, when Jon does act, we see his rationale. If he imprisons Slynt, he will just start plotting again. If he forces him to Greyguard, he will desert and possibly take more men with him. At that point, death is the only option that would not undermine Jon's leadership and it doubles as making an example that insubordination won't be tolerated.

As for Ramsey, Jon did not send Mance to attack the Bolton's. He sent Mance as an escort for a refugee, which breaks no laws nor even customs. Mance then abandoned his mission and took matters into his own hands. Jon only has partial responsibility here. Plus, Ramsey didn't send the Pink Letter because of Mance. He sent it because he's Ramsey; a deranged lunatic who gets off on others pain. You actually think he wouldn't have threatened them in the exact same way if Mance hadn't been involved? Shireen, Selyse and Melisandre are all still at the NW anyway. Ramsey would have just demanded them only, instead of Val, Reek and 'Arya' too.

Plus, even if we actually consider that Jon was 100% responsible for Mance and legally in the wrong for interfering with the Bolton's that still leaves him with the moral high ground. No normal thinking human being would condemn Jon for rescuing a girl from a monster such as Ramsey.

Adam.  Jon has no way of knowing how Janos Slynt will behave after imprisonment.  Slynt was a softened man by then and even started begging for his life.  Jon was making up all kinds of excuses to support what he obviously wanted to do.  Kill Janos Slynt.  There was no justice in what Jon did.

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Adam.  Jon has no way of knowing how Janos Slynt will behave after imprisonment.  Slynt was a softened man by then and even started begging for his life.  Jon was making up all kinds of excuses to support what he obviously wanted to do.  Kill Janos Slynt.  There was no justice in what Jon did.

Bollocks. Up to the very final moment Slynt is defiant and talking about his important friends, and that they’ll rue the day once Tywin Lannister hears of this. It’s only when Jon asks if he has any final words that be breaks down and begs for mercy, like the cowardly PoS he is.

[Impbread]

On 5/1/2020 at 3:53 PM, Hugorfonics said:

"If you have any last words, now is the time to speak them," he said, expecting one last curse.

Janos Slynt twisted his neck around to stare up at him. "Please, my lord. Mercy. I'll … I'll go, I will, I …"

No, thought Jon. You closed that door. Longclaw descended.

.

Im not getting into if he deserved it or not. But that scene was pitiful. Nothing like Karstark who gave out one last curse. Yes Janos was a bastard, but no one imo needs to die like a dog

lmao. That movie was so weird. I saw it with a lady friend years ago, shit was so strange lol. Yea I sympathized with the poor lady who got raped everywhich way and didnt really feel bad for the tortured victims who had like their balls tied to the doorknob or something (i hardly remember it) but, I remember thinking this shits fucked up, like majorly lol.

I sympathized with Edmund Dantes too, shit I sympathize with Michael Corleone getting vengeance for the murder and betrayal of Sonny too, but killing your brother inlaw like 5 minutes after baptizing their kid is so monumentally fucked up. Vengeance is not, nor can it be, the markings of a "good guy". 

But Janos was/is a dog.

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Impbread said:

But Janos was/is a dog.

I have to disagree. I love dogs. Dogs are loyal companions, and Slynt is anything but. I would actually disagree w/ any comparison of Slynt w/ any animal, as animals lack certain... traits that Slynt has in spades.

 

[Impbread]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have to disagree. I love dogs. Dogs are loyal companions, and Slynt is anything but. I would actually disagree w/ any comparison of Slynt w/ any animal, as animals lack certain... traits that Slynt has in spades.

 

Ok you make a good point. He died like the spineless worm he was. He was a tuff guy when he thought Thorne, his buddies, and the Lannisters had his back bit once he realized they didn't his pee pee shriveled up. Love that scene in the book. Made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. 

[Quoth the raven,]

On 5/4/2020 at 12:34 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Adam.  Jon has no way of knowing how Janos Slynt will behave after imprisonment.  Slynt was a softened man by then and even started begging for his life.  Jon was making up all kinds of excuses to support what he obviously wanted to do.  Kill Janos Slynt.  There was no justice in what Jon did.

 

23 hours ago, Impbread said:

Ok you make a good point. He died like the spineless worm he was. He was a tuff guy when he thought Thorne, his buddies, and the Lannisters had his back bit once he realized they didn't his pee pee shriveled up. Love that scene in the book. Made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. 

Janos Slynt was not a nice fellow but he deserved justice.  He did not get justice from Jon.  Mance Rayder is a man who was much, much worse than Janos Slynt and Jon let him walk because he needed Mance to run an illegal errand for him.  Jon is unethical. 

[SeanF]

11 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

 

Janos Slynt was not a nice fellow but he deserved justice.  He did not get justice from Jon.  Mance Rayder is a man who was much, much worse than Janos Slynt and Jon let him walk because he needed Mance to run an illegal errand for him.  Jon is unethical. 

Janos Slynt got justice.

Mance Rayder was Stannis' prisoner.  It was up to Stannis' deputy at the Wall, Melisandre, to decide his fate.