Rothfuss XVI: Books? What books?

[RedEyedGhost]

25 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Doesn't the Publisher throwing shade at an author in a public forum mean the author's relationship with the Publisher may be... less than cordial?

It could also be like a coach trash talking their own player's performance to motivate them for the next game.  However, you do have to consider Rothfuss' history of DNPs...

[Ninefingers]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Doesn't the Publisher throwing shade at an author in a public forum mean the author's relationship with the Publisher may be... less than cordial?

Oh yeah, she’s killing him in the comments. 
 

Feels like she got to a point where she said to herself: “being nice and supportive is getting be nowhere, so fuck it. Time for some tough love”

[Darth Richard II]

Betsy Wollheim : It will be the last book in Kvothe's backstory, but Pat originally wanted to write more in this world. I don't know what he wants to do now. Or even if he wants to write at all.

 

OUCH.

 

Yeah she is...not a happy editor.

[Darth Richard II]

Ha wow. Two things from the comments.

She doesn't think he has worked on the book in SIX YEARS.

That rumor about the editors locking him in a hotel room and making him dictate book 2 is a complete lie. Gasp.

Basically sounds like Pat has abandoned the book entirely. Jeez.

Edit: Right so I got the insomnia so sorry for the multi posts, but I'm going to call it now and say we see Exiles 3 from Rawn first, if we even see Doors of Stone

[The Marquis de Leech]

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

All authors do, at least for their debut books.

Once the initial contract is fulfilled, then authors gain a lot more trust and leeway and can sell books that are incomplete based on a couple of chapters and an outline: that's how GRRM sold ASoIaF, with the first 180 pages of AGoT, not the full thing, but he had 20 years as a published author under his belt at the point.

Martin (and Rothfuss) are exceptions. Small to medium authors don't sell incomplete books.

[Derfel Cadarn]

12 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Derfel does that mean you sign your contract post manuscript submission?

Yes. There are exceptions, of course.

For me, I wrote the book, edited it for years, Roose Bolton’s Pet Leech kindly read it over and provided about 17 pages of feedback, and after various agents/publishers rejected it, Elsewhen Press accepted it.

They then sent the contract. Their editor went through it a couple of times, then the proofreader went over it as a fresh pair of eyes.

Once myself and the publisher were happy that it was finalised, they formatted it for ebook and paperback, and paid my advance. Advances from small presses are petty rare.

 

[Gaston de Foix]

5 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Betsy Wollheim : It will be the last book in Kvothe's backstory, but Pat originally wanted to write more in this world. I don't know what he wants to do now. Or even if he wants to write at all.

 

OUCH.

 

Yeah she is...not a happy editor.

https://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2012/07/why-i-love-my-editor/

[Andrew Gilfellon]

Why is Rothfuss still employed by DAW? Surely the contracts authors sign are the same as any other contract.  You give us this service. We pay you such and such. You fail to give us this service you are in breach.  I mean.  By all accounts, it seems he has given up completely. Martin at least gives regular updates to his publishers, but Rothfuss has been no contact, really, with fans and I assume publishers, as if he'd let them know they'd let us know about the current state in order to you know, keep people interested. 

 

I mean, presuming he got his advance on a three book deal, couldn't they ask for some of it back?

[Ran]

He's not an employee.

That said, he is not costing them anything. His books have certainly paid out over his advance multiple times and they've raked in millions (in 2015 it was reported he'd sold 10 million copies to date). If he never writes another book, they will be in the black vis-à-vis their relationship to him. What they would like to do is make even more money, by publishing his third book, rather than letting someone else publish that book (should it ever exist) and have them be the ones (probably) raking in millions.

I don't know if Wolheim speaking out is "tough love" or if it's basically throwing her hands up and thinking he genuinely will never publish the third book so she doesn't care what happens to the relationship any longer.

 

 

 

[Ser Drewy]

Whenever Rothfuss stuff comes up, it just increasingly sounds like the guy has retired and doesn't want to tell anyone. 

[David Selig]

The situation is obviously pretty frustrating for a relatively small and independent publisher like DAW, Rothfuss is their biggest name. Betsy Wollheim has probably wished a lot of times that Pat Rothfuss had the exemplary work ethics of some of DAW's other big names, like Cherryh or Seanan McGuire.

[lysmonger]

31 minutes ago, Ran said:

He's not an employee.

That said, he is not costing them anything. His books have certainly paid out over his advance multiple times and they've raked in millions (in 2015 it was reported he'd sold 10 million copies to date). If he never writes another book, they will be in the black vis-à-vis their relationship to him. What they would like to do is make even more money, by publishing his third book, rather than letting someone else publish that book (should it ever exist) and have them be the ones (probably) raking in millions.

I don't know if Wolheim speaking out is "tough love" or if it's basically throwing her hands up and thinking he genuinely will never publish the third book so she doesn't care what happens to the relationship any longer.

 

 

 

I'm going to throw a theory out there. While it is pretty obvious Rothfuss has pretty severe ADHD and a mood disorder and has prattled along with his diagnosis to everyone, we don't know if he takes medication for either of these conditions. ADHD medicine would help him write, if he didn't have any other distractions such as video games and twitter. 

Antidepressents sometimes can really kill a person's  creative juices if they are sometimes manic or write essentially when they have a "fevre dream".  The willingness, energy to write and develop something may not be there anymore.  

When I had a massive panic attack,  it was very difficult for me to think creatively for months on end. I developed circular thinking. My writing was illogical, didn't make sense. I had mental walls around doing simple tasks.

Rothfuss could possibly be just off medically, not the same person who spent a decade working out, "the name of the wind." He has a family now, financially successful, and has a wife whereas when he was in his upper twenties was single and wasn't getting laid. 

Every personality attribute Rothfuss publicly shows is something a high output diligent writer would never want.

 

[Werthead]

5 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Martin (and Rothfuss) are exceptions. Small to medium authors don't sell incomplete books.

Martin was low midlister when the ASoIaF thing happened, he wasn't a big name in the genre at all to the general public (he was better known to hardcore SFF fans, but publishers also knew that his last solo novel before A Game of Thrones had bombed, and he was only really still in the game because of Wild Cards).

Very small-selling authors and debuts don't get deals for incomplete books, but otherwise it's fairly normal. Charlie Jane Anders notes selling her third novel (The City in the Middle of the Night) through a pitch meeting to Tor Books, with the book itself barely started, before her second book (and first SFF work) was published, when she was only known for her work on io9. You need some kind of track record or profile and it doesn't have to be that high; Robert Jordan was known for sweet FA when he sold The Wheel of Time to Tor with an outline for a trilogy and a stack of notes six years before he finished the first book in the series, but he also had a complete historical trilogy and some Conan tie-ins, so they knew he was likely to deliver.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Andrew Gilfellon said:

Why is Rothfuss still employed by DAW? Surely the contracts authors sign are the same as any other contract.  You give us this service. We pay you such and such. You fail to give us this service you are in breach.  I mean.  By all accounts, it seems he has given up completely. Martin at least gives regular updates to his publishers, but Rothfuss has been no contact, really, with fans and I assume publishers, as if he'd let them know they'd let us know about the current state in order to you know, keep people interested. 

I mean, presuming he got his advance on a three book deal, couldn't they ask for some of it back?

Rothfuss isn't "employed" by DAW, any more than any author is employed by their publisher (unless it's work-for-hire or a tie-in project). He has a contract for them to publish work he is effectively producing as a freelancer, and the work he has already produced for them (The Name of the Wind, The Wise Man's Fear and The Slow Regard of Silent Things) had made them many tens of millions of dollars. The money they've made from him has outstripped, many times over, the projected profits on the deal they calculated in 2007. 

It's unprofessional and DAW are clearly feeling that they could make a lot more money with a new book plus a complete trilogy is more marketable (there are a significant number of people who've expressed interest in the series but have not read it yet due to it being incomplete). It may also be that shopping the TV deal around is harder with the third book being incomplete; the fears over what happened with Game of Thrones happening again may be more acute now than when the Showtime deal was done a few years earlier. So there's clearly a lot of money being left on the table by Rothfuss, but he's still made a ton of cash for them.

I do wonder if part of DAW's concerns are down to underperformances elsewhere. In particular, although it's done okay, the Tad Williams Memory, Sorrow and Thorn sequel trilogy does seem to have done noticeably less business than they expected, and they probably paid him a hefty advance for that series.

Quote

(in 2015 it was reported he'd sold 10 million copies to date

I believe that's 10 million copies of The Name of the Wind alone. The Wise Man's Fear has not sold much less, and the novella has done pretty well as well, and of course that was five years ago. I've seen projections putting Rothfuss's lifetime sales at well over 20 million, around the same as Brandon Sanderson with only 3 books compared to 20.

[lysmonger]

6 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Rothfuss isn't "employed" by DAW, any more than any author is employed by their publisher (unless it's work-for-hire or a tie-in project). He has a contract for them to publish work he is effectively producing as a freelancer, and the work he has already produced for them (The Name of the Wind, The Wise Man's Fear and The Slow Regard of Silent Things) had made them many tens of millions of dollars. The money they've made from him has outstripped, many times over, the projected profits on the deal they calculated in 2007. 

It's unprofessional and DAW are clearly feeling that they could make a lot more money with a new book plus a complete trilogy is more marketable (there are a significant number of people who've expressed interest in the series but have not read it yet due to it being incomplete). It may also be that shopping the TV deal around is harder with the third book being incomplete; the fears over what happened with Game of Thrones happening again may be more acute now than when the Showtime deal was done a few years earlier. So there's clearly a lot of money being left on the table by Rothfuss, but he's still made a ton of cash for them.

I do wonder if part of DAW's concerns are down to underperformances elsewhere. In particular, although it's done okay, the Tad Williams Memory, Sorrow and Thorn sequel trilogy does seem to have done noticeably less business than they expected, and they probably paid him a hefty advance for that series.

I believe that's 10 million copies of The Name of the Wind alone. The Wise Man's Fear has not sold much less, and the novella has done pretty well as well, and of course that was five years ago. I've seen projections putting Rothfuss's lifetime sales at well over 20 million, around the same as Brandon Sanderson with only 3 books compared to 20.

Brandon Sanderson is a super speed writer. Heavily super structured- diligent working Mormon. Exact opposite of Rothfuss.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, lysmonger said:

Brandon Sanderson is a super speed writer. Heavily super structured- diligent working Mormon. Exact opposite of Rothfuss.

But his prose is just so *meh*

[Gaston de Foix]

1 hour ago, lysmonger said:

I'm going to throw a theory out there. While it is pretty obvious Rothfuss has pretty severe ADHD and a mood disorder and has prattled along with his diagnosis to everyone, we don't know if he takes medication for either of these conditions. ADHD medicine would help him write, if he didn't have any other distractions such as video games and twitter. 

Antidepressents sometimes can really kill a person's  creative juices if they are sometimes manic or write essentially when they have a "fevre dream".  The willingness, energy to write and develop something may not be there anymore.  

When I had a massive panic attack,  it was very difficult for me to think creatively for months on end. I developed circular thinking. My writing was illogical, didn't make sense. I had mental walls around doing simple tasks.

I certainly think Rothfuss' struggle with depression require us to approach this topic with sensitivity (something I have not always done).  I also think that it is a very real reason for the delay.  But as someone has suffered from similar issues in the past, I think all the other activity he engages in, the compensatory behavior of videogaming and tweeting, will not make things better.  The fundamental problem is he started this story and is stopped halfway. 

Even saying that he will never write the third book (although it might unleash a tidal wave of disappointed and angry emails) is progress because it adjusts expectations.  Douglas Hulick, an author I admire and read, stopped after two novels in his Amongst the Kin series because of mental health issues. I was disappointed but I accepted it.

To make no progress and provide no information is the worst of all possible worlds for Rothfuss.  It's also the worst of all possible worlds for his fans.  And yet we are all stuck here. 

[Werthead]

35 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

But his prose is just so *meh*

Some people urging Brandon to offer to finish the series, but that's never going to happen (such a request would have to come from Rothfuss) and I don't think Brandon's prose is anywhere near compatible. Guy Gavriel Kay is a lot closer and has form for helping finish a beloved work when the original author was unable to, but Kay also hugely values conciseness, and I doubt would be up for it. Splitting the difference, Tad Williams might be the best choice and is wrapping up his current projects.

[Ran]

The idea that GGK or Tad Williams are going to take up Pat Rothfuss's cast-offs is ludicrous. Not in a million years, man. 

The idea that Rothfuss would ask anyone else to finish it for him seems almost as absurd to me. 

[lysmonger]

51 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Some people urging Brandon to offer to finish the series, but that's never going to happen (such a request would have to come from Rothfuss) and I don't think Brandon's prose is anywhere near compatible. Guy Gavriel Kay is a lot closer and has form for helping finish a beloved work when the original author was unable to, but Kay also hugely values conciseness, and I doubt would be up for it. Splitting the difference, Tad Williams might be the best choice and is wrapping up his current projects.

For one, Brandon is too big of a prude to finish this book. 
And would have difficulty writing a person who by all definitions is a creep