Jump to content

Quentyn


Crona

Recommended Posts

 

I was re-reading ADWD and I found something interesting regarding Quentyn's dead body. 

 

In the Dragontamer chapter, Quentyn, Gerris, and Arch all wear brass masks

 

"I'll be the bull," Arch announced.

Quentyn handed him the bull mask. "The lion for me."

"Which makes a monkey out of me." Gerris pressed the ape mask to his face. "How do they breathe in these things?"

"Just put it on." The prince was in no mood for japes.

 

Quentyn wears the mask while going into the dragon pit and doesn't take off the mask.  

 

Here is a description of what happens to someone who has the mask on while being burned:

 

The crossbowman was fumbling for another quarrel as the dragon's teeth closed around his neck. The man wore the mask of a Brazen Beast, the fearsome likeness of a tiger. As he dropped his weapon to try and pry apart Viserion's jaws, flame gouted from the tiger's mouth. The man's eyes burst with soft popping sounds, and the brass around them began to run. The dragon tore off a hunk of flesh, most of the sellsword's neck, then gulped it down as the burning corpse collapsed to the floor.

 

So the brass melts and runs down the body

 

Here is the body Barristan sees:

 

How can you tell? He has no lips. It would have been kinder if the dragons had devoured him. That at least would have been quick. This … Fire is a hideous way to die. Small wonder half the hells are made of flame. "Cover him."

 

the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell's face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus. 

 

What I find odd is the body has no sign of melted brass. Barristan doesn't even note any type of melted metal to be seen on the body. The skin on his face is almost gone, so maybe the metal fell off the face. However, the brass should have dripped past his neck and to his chest. It would have been difficult to take the melted metal off him.

 

When Quentyn's body is discovered, I am not sure Barristan had checked the body, he says the Brazen Beasts had found the dornishmen and he commanded the body to lie on Dany's bed.  Nobody took care of the body except Missandei and I am not sure if she would be able to take melted brass off of him. She seemed mostly to comfort him and give milk of the poppy.

 

Neither of the Dornishmen had offered any resistance. Archibald Yronwood had been cradling his prince's scorched and smoking body when the Brazen Beasts had found him, as his burned hands could testify. He had used them to beat out the flames that had engulfed Quentyn Martell. Gerris Drinkwater was standing over them with sword in hand, but he had dropped the blade the moment the locusts had appeared. "They share a cell.

At his command, Quentyn Martell had been laid out in the queen's own bed. He had been a knight, and a prince of Dorne besides. It seemed only kind to let him die in the bed he had crossed half a world to reach. The bedding was ruined—sheets, covers, pillows, mattress, all reeked of blood and smoke, but Ser Barristan thought Daenerys would forgive him.

Missandei sat at the bedside. She had been with the prince night and day, tending to such needs as he could express, giving him water and milk of the poppy when he was strong enough to drink, listening to the few tortured words he gasped out from time to time, reading to him when he fell quiet, sleeping in her chair beside him. Ser Barristan had asked some of the queen's cupbearers to help, but the sight of the burned man was too much for even the boldest of them. And the Blue Graces had never come, though he'd sent for them four times. Perhaps the last of them had been carried off by the pale mare by now

The body was removed when he came back:

By the time the old knight returned to the queen's rooms atop the pyramid, Prince Quentyn's corpse had been removed.

 

So what happened to Quentyn's mask? I checked back in the Dragontamer chapter and all but one person wore a mask. Pretty Meris was not wearing a mask:

Five wore the cloaks and masks of Brazen Beasts, but Pretty Meris had not troubled to disguise herself. "Where is your lord?" he asked Meris.

"I have no lord," she answered. "If you mean your fellow prince, he is near, with fifty men.

 

Pretty Meris and Quentyn look very different and on glance I would imagine Barristan would know the difference. But he may have only seen the body after it was already placed on the bed and a partial skull left for a face.

 

As for Pretty Meris' fate, Barristan remarks they have the Windblown however he doesn't specify which he has.

There is a chance here. "We still have Windblown in the dungeons. Those feigned deserters."

"I remember," said Yronwood. "Hungerford, Straw, that lot. Some of them weren't so bad for sellswords. Others, well, might be they could stand a bit of dying. What of them?"


 

Arch says that Tatters will give them to Pretty Meris, but again this is Arch talking and this may be a lie.

 

Ser Archibald grimaced. "Rags and Tatters is more like to give the two of us to Pretty Meris. He won't do it."

 

During the dragon pit scene, Viserion had separated Quentyn and Drinkwater then he heard Pretty Meris say step aside:

 

Pretty Meris was screaming at someone to step aside.

 

Then she pulled back:

 

The other Windblown were pulling back. This was more than even Pretty Meris had the stomach for.

 

I am not sure if Drink or Arch had used Pretty Meris' body instead of Quentyn but I do find it odd that Pretty Meris is the only one without a mask in the pit and the body shows no sign melted brass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's possible but the chance is very low.  He took the fire directly.  A brass mask is not enough to save him from the heat of that intensity.  The force of the blast easily blew off the molten metal.  And who is to say hardened brass was not removed off from him. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Roswell said:

It's possible but the chance is very low.  He took the fire directly.  A brass mask is not enough to save him from the heat of that intensity.  The force of the blast easily blew off the molten metal.  And who is to say hardened brass was not removed off from him. 

Actually the crossbowman took a direct hit and his mask had melted and didn’t disintegrate. I would think melted metal would be stuck the skin and bones of Quentyn by then quite difficult to take off. Especially his skull. 

21 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Meris is almost 6 feet tall. Quentyn is short-legged (and stocky). There are too many physical differences between them for Meris to be mistaken for Quentyn.

I do agree that there are a lot of differences but that still doesn’t explain why there isn’t melted brass on the body. There were fifty men with Tatters, they could have not had masks on either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Crona said:

Actually the crossbowman took a direct hit and his mask had melted and didn’t disintegrate. I would think melted metal would be stuck the skin and bones of Quentyn by then quite difficult to take off. Especially his skull. 

It wouldn't be possible without the skin and large parts of flesh. Beside him having a metal mask melted in his face would most likely cook his brain, as molten metal isn't water, it does not simply wash down like that, so Quentyn would not suffer that long (if there are any medical doctors on this forums I would like to raise the question if his brain shouldn't have been cooked by dragon fire alone).

7 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I think you are overthinking a minute detail. In the recount of events Gerris or Archibald noted that Quentyn had a look like he was going to shit himself. How could they have told that if Quentyn was wearing a mask?

I agree. Martin made a narrative mistake here, Quentyn must have put the mask down somewhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Morte said:

I agree. Martin made a narrative mistake here,

I wouldn't even call it that. You cannot describe every detail in the books. There are other more obvious mistakes.

12 minutes ago, Morte said:

Quentyn must have put the mask down somewhere.

It is also advisable if you hope to tame a dragon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I think you are overthinking a minute detail. In the recount of events Gerris or Archibald noted that Quentyn had a look like he was going to shit himself. How could they have told that if Quentyn was wearing a mask?

We were in Quentyn’s POV while in the dragonpit, he is noted wearing the mask while going into the dragonpit. In the scene there is no indication that he took it off, Arch and Gerris could be lying and it was probably visible from his body language like shaking.

19 minutes ago, Morte said:

It wouldn't be possible without the skin and large parts of flesh. Beside him having a metal mask melted in his face would most likely cook his brain, as molten metal isn't water, it does not simply wash down like that, so Quentyn would not suffer that long (if there are any medical doctors on this forums I would like to raise the question if his brain shouldn't have been cooked by dragon fire alone).

I agree. Martin made a narrative mistake here, Quentyn must have put the mask down somewhere.

I wouldn’t think Martin would know the semantics of actual melted metal and this is probably the reason the first man who was killed had melted metal. If his brain was cooked then why was he responsive to Missandei?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Crona said:

We were in Quentyn’s POV while in the dragonpit, he is noted wearing the mask while going into the dragonpit. In the scene there is no indication that he took it off, Arch and Gerris could be lying and it was probably visible from his body language like shaking.

That's why I said this one is on Martin (not telling when the mask went off); because, as you say: we are in Quentyn's POV, so we know he did not escape the fire. No way you could somehow hide a severely burned Quentyn to have him miraculously appear some time later. Such burns are hard to tend and "heal" today, having him hiding somewhere would be madness.

10 minutes ago, Crona said:

I wouldn’t think Martin would know the semantics of actual melted metal and this is probably the reason the first man who was killed had melted metal. If his brain was cooked then why was he responsive to Missandei?

Martin most likely doesn't. But that's not the problem, as - see above - his brain wasn't cooked because he did not wear a mask then the flames hit him (Martin just forgot to tell us).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Morte said:

That's why I said this one is on Martin (not telling when the mask went off); because, as you say: we are in Quentyn's POV, so we know he did not escape the fire. No way you could somehow hide a severely burned Quentyn to have him miraculously appear some time later. Such burns are hard to tend and "heal" today, having him hiding somewhere would be madness.

Martin most likely doesn't. But that's not the problem, as - see above - his brain wasn't cooked because he did not wear a mask then the flames hit him (Martin just forgot to tell us).

There were 50 men with Tatters, perhaps they were able to grab Quentyn while leaving? The ending of the dragontamer chapter is ambiguous at best. We don’t know exactly what happened.

I would say this may be a detail he missed, but he repeatedly mentions the mask and his dead body shows up a chapter later. I really don’t think he would forget this detail after describing what happens with direct heat on the mask.

also in GRRM’s 2021 calendar, the front page has Quentyn with a mask on in the dragonpit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Crona said:

I would say this may be a detail he missed, but he repeatedly mentions the mask and his dead body shows up a chapter later. I really don’t think he would forget this detail after describing what happens with direct heat on the mask.

also in GRRM’s 2021 calendar, the front page has Quentyn with a mask on in the dragonpit

If it is indeed intentional, it would be even sloppier, because of, as @rotting sea cow said, Archibald's and Gerris' description of Quentyn's face. They would not be able to see it, if he wore a mask.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Crona said:

We were in Quentyn’s POV while in the dragonpit, he is noted wearing the mask while going into the dragonpit. In the scene there is no indication that he took it off, Arch and Gerris could be lying and it was probably visible from his body language like shaking.

And what would be the point of it?

People are missing what GRRM is trying to say with Quentyn. The plot doesn't need Quentyn chapters. They are there for purely thematic reasons. Quentyn story is the rehearsal of the typical princess in the tower and the knight who have to save her from the dragon. Think of the Shrek I movie if you like. The spin in ADWD is that the princess has her own agency, the dragons are her children and the knight doesn't want the mission and neither feels suitable for it.

Plot wise, these events will put Dany and Dorne at odds, we see that Gerris and Archibald are particularly bitter to Dany. It also shows how bad are Doran plans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

People are missing what GRRM is trying to say with Quentyn. The plot doesn't need Quentyn chapters. They are there for purely thematic reasons. Quentyn story is the rehearsal of the typical princess in the tower and the knight who have to save her from the dragon. Think of the Shrek I movie if you like. The spin in ADWD is that the princess has her own agency, the dragons are her children and the knight doesn't want the mission and neither feels suitable for it.

One could add that in the original fairy tale about the Frog Prince, the princess doesn't kiss the frog to turn him into a prince, but rather throws him against a wall for his last insolence - THAT's what turns him human again and reveals the hidden prince within the frog.

But in Quentyn's story, when he is turned down (=thrown against the wall), he stays a frog and doesn't develop any "princely" qualities. He is a frog, not a prince.

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Plot wise, these events will put Dany and Dorne at odds, we see that Gerris and Archibald are particularly bitter to Dany. It also shows how bad are Doran plans.

Exactly. It also tells us that Doran doesn't know his children very well: Quentyn wasn't suited for this mission, he should have sent the Viper, and earlier (who also wouldn't have been surprised that Dany had already married, nor would he had thought this a slight against Dorne, as neither of the Targaryen siblings knew about Doran's plans).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always thought that Quentyns death is very vague, I presumed when reading that being hit by dragon fire kills you pretty much instantly but Quentyn died three days was it? And then Arch & Drink never actually said what happened 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Morte said:

If it is indeed intentional, it would be even sloppier, because of, as @rotting sea cow said, Archibald's and Gerris' description of Quentyn's face. They would not be able to see it, if he wore a mask.

they did not mention his face in that description. It could have been body language
 

9 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

And what would be the point of it?

People are missing what GRRM is trying to say with Quentyn. The plot doesn't need Quentyn chapters. They are there for purely thematic reasons. Quentyn story is the rehearsal of the typical princess in the tower and the knight who have to save her from the dragon. Think of the Shrek I movie if you like. The spin in ADWD is that the princess has her own agency, the dragons are her children and the knight doesn't want the mission and neither feels suitable for it.

Plot wise, these events will put Dany and Dorne at odds, we see that Gerris and Archibald are particularly bitter to Dany. It also shows how bad are Doran plans.

This is a thread about Quentyn’s body not his narrative purpose. We don’t know what is in store for him in Winds nor has GRRM has said any of the things you said above. I do have one thing to say, why waste all these chapters on him if he added nothing to story? Only serves as a plot device for Dany and Doran. Which btw doesn’t make sense cause Arch is going to deliver the body by walking  and they are fighting in Meeren right now and Arianne is on her way to Aegon. She will reach Aegon way before Arch and Gerris reach Dorne and would have to make a decision before knowing about Quentyn’s fate. There’s already a reason for her to switch sides to Aegon because A. He’s Elia’s child and B. There’s already rumors of Dany’s death.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Faking Quentyn's death serves no purpose to the story, imo. 

His mission was always doomed to fail. Doran didn't really give him all that much chance to succeed, imo. He left Dorne and his sister knew about it because he's not that good at hiding or at covering his tracks. Half his companions died. He became Frog and remained Frog. He never became the prince from the fairytales. He went in pursuit of something he did not even want for himself, which makes the way his life ended even more tragic. 

Adventure is not all that it's cracked out to be and Quentyn's hero's journey ended the way it started. It stank from start to end.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/1/2020 at 10:30 PM, Crona said:

Arch and Gerris could be lying

 

On 5/1/2020 at 10:49 PM, Crona said:

There were 50 men with Tatters, perhaps they were able to grab Quentyn while leaving?

Arch burned his hands trying to put out the fire and was cradling the body - both consistent with the body being Quentyn. If the body was not Quentyn, Arch wouldn't have tried to help at the cost of a painful injury to himself. If craddling the body was a ruse, it would have been Gerris, not Arch, carrying it out because Arch is not the type to fake such things, Gerris is.

And even if the mercenaries managed to snatch Quentyn away, he would have died off the scene, there is no way he could survive the burns. I doubt he would have survived even with modern medicine.

 

IMHO, GRRM either made a mistake, forgetting to let Quentyn take off the mask or forgetting to deal with the effects of molten bronze. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Crona said:

This is a thread about Quentyn’s body not his narrative purpose. We don’t know what is in store for him in Winds nor has GRRM has said any of the things you said above. I do have one thing to say, why waste all these chapters on him if he added nothing to story? Only serves as a plot device for Dany and Doran.

Again, the plot doesn't need Quentyn's chapters. This is the whole point. GRRM has been adamant in his critique to classical fantasy and he has twisted many stereotypes in his story. Just look at Brienne and Jaime, who is the beauty? who is the beast? For artists and authors as important as the artwork or story is the message behind it, the aesthetic proposal or setting of new forms. GRRM is not the exception. In fact, he has hidden lots of his thoughts regarding worldviews and art in his writings.

 

21 hours ago, Crona said:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...