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King Adrian Storm

My theory for (f)Aegon VI

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5 minutes ago, King Adrian Storm said:

Okay. Aegon has been raised by mummers his entire life then. People lying to him, and telling him he's the rightful heir when he's not. Varys or Illyrio could be seen as the mummer. Illyrio is most likely his father, and Varys is the one using him as a puppet. And what is Varys if not a mummer, if he's a blackfyre as well, pretending not to be one.

Another thing, Jon is already referred to in the HOTU, as the blue flower on the wall of ice. I doubt he's referred to again, as a mummers dragon in the same prophecy. And if Aegon is going to be a big deal in Dany's future, why wouldn't he be included in the HOTU.

Why would he be false in narrative sense. Why even Aegon? Same could be achieved by Krun Kruk the Brindled man invading Westeros. Aegon being false makes him irrelevant and replaceable by any other character, adds nothing narratively and ultimately contributes not to the story. Him being an actual Targaryen and who he claims to be, and ruling well, being liked and loved by the people, and ultimately being killed by his aunt for it while she believes him false and dangerous due to prophecy all the while Jon is the one that will ultimately kill her makes for a better story, plot and emotional investment. 

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15 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Why would he be false in narrative sense. Why even Aegon? Same could be achieved by Krun Kruk the Brindled man invading Westeros. Aegon being false makes him irrelevant and replaceable by any other character, adds nothing narratively and ultimately contributes not to the story. Him being an actual Targaryen and who he claims to be, and ruling well, being liked and loved by the people, and ultimately being killed by his aunt for it while she believes him false and dangerous due to prophecy all the while Jon is the one that will ultimately kill her makes for a better story, plot and emotional investment. 

For the same reason Ned died a traitor, The king in the north Robb was killed by Walter Frey, and Tyrion was seen as a monster by Tywin even though he’s his most competent child. Irony. Aegon is the perfect king, who will die because he’s not the rightful heir. As far as narrative sense it makes no difference whether he’s true or not. He’s still got an army behind him, and he’s still going to fight Daenerys.

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Just now, King Adrian Storm said:

For the same reason Ned died a traitor, The king in the north Robb was killed by Walter Frey, and Tyrion was seen as a monster by Tywin even though he’s his most competent child. Irony. Aegon is the perfect king, who will die because he’s not the rightful heir. As far as narrative sense it makes no difference whether he’s true or not. He’s still got an army behind him, and he’s still going to fight Daenerys.

Ned died because he was a trusting idiot. Robb was killed for breaking his paths. Tyrion is an idiot who never had a good plan work out and always messed up or needed saving. 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Ned died because he was a trusting idiot. Robb was killed for breaking his paths. Tyrion is an idiot who never had a good plan work out and always messed up or needed saving. 

I’m not talking literally, as you probably already know. Ned died and was seen as a traitor by the people was he not? Rob was the honorable king in the north, ready to get vengeance for his family when he was killed by a low life at a wedding right?Tyrion is his fathers son, but sense he’s a dwarf his father hates him does he not? I think you get the point. George loves including these points of irony in his stories. I think having a person who would be the perfect king for the realm, but since he isn’t the true heir, he is killed. That’s the world of Westeros.

 

And by the way narratively speaking, having a character who’s long been dead suddenly pop up out of nowhere and take the throne is dumb. That’s not what Martin is about.

Edited by King Adrian Storm

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6 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

What is the point of Aegon's character in the story if he's not going to have any impact? Plus, the queen that casts Cersei down could be Arianne. They are very similar characters. And Margery seems like she could have already fulfilled the prophecy. Or Cersei could leave kingslanding, and return in the next book with Euron and the iron fleet, and return to power. This could open up the possibility for many other options. Daenerys, Sansa, etc. Aegon not taking the throne would completely ruin everything set up for Varys in ADWD. Cersei is powerless right now she has no supporters. There aren't many Lannister knights in KInglsanding at this point. 

Daenerys won't be doing anything in Westeros until Ados, the earliest she'll get to Westeros is the end of TWOW. DO you really think Aegon is going to sit around for the ENTIRE book, and do nothing. It's pretty clear that he's eager to take the throne, seeming as that he ditched the plan of meeting Daenerys, just so he could march on Westeros sooner without 3 dragons.

Grrm has said many people will sit the iron throne before the story is over.

Robb and Stannis never sat the Iron Throne and they both had huge impacts. He doesn't need to sit the Iron Throne  to have an impact.

I think it is unlikely Arianne is the Queen of the Prophecy. Not Impossible but very unlikely. Seems like her being By Aegons side as he took  Kings landing wouldn't really be her casting her down directly. You are right Cersei could Technically flee Kings Landing and then Return to power and then fulfill the Prophecy. Seems like a lot of stuff to happen to make your theory of Aegon taking kings landing work though.

Aegon not taking Kings landing would definitely screw up the plans Varys has been working on forever but a lot of times things don't work out the way the character plans. Varys would have to adapt and try to find another candidate for King/Queen.

Rob was just in the Riverlands for like a book and half. Stannis was in the North for an entire book and will be for longer in winds. Aegon getting Dorne to join his cause and an invasion into the reach is way more then enough Material for Aegon until Danny Arrives at the end of Winds of winter.

While I don't think Aegon taking The Iron throne is impossible. I Personally think it is Unlikely.

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I think (f)Aegon's story will be a lot like Henry VII if he's a Blackfyre. If someone finds out and starts spreading the rumor, if he himself learns he's truly  a pretender, if Jon Con finds out he's a pretender, he'd always feel like he's reign is in danger and someone will be always just about to out him. The perfect storm to create a paranoid tyrant  that has to rule with an iron fist to command fear and respect. Just like Henry VII (who also had a paper-thin claim and flew the dragon banner). I think his story and Dany's got conflated in the show that's how we ended up with an all-out tyrant at the end. In the books I think (f)Aegon's heritage will be the bane of his reign, and push him toward tyrannical practices to desperately cling to the throne. He's a weak boy. Book smart, but not tried and seasoned in ruling and also described as impulsive. What do you think a character like that would do in a foreign land where no one sees him as legitimate ruler or who has to be constantly watchful that his secret won't come out? Dany and Jon (assuming R+L=J) on the other hand, are a full Targaryens. Either one would have much less reason to become paranoid the same way a pretender would.  We know Jon would get more support if he can prove his heritage against that of (f)Aegon's.  Daenerys is the daughter of the Mad king and she has dragons and silver hair to prove it, it would probably be easier for her to gain  more support than (f)Aegon if Jon's story doesn't come out . Those two are in a more secure position than (f)Aegon ever would be. That may be how KL burns, the perfect situation where no-one wins (if I can't have it, you can't either - in whatever direction), and pushes Daenerys' north. 

Edited by Tywin's Wallet

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On 5/8/2020 at 12:35 AM, House Of Wolves said:

I disagree that Aegon taking the Iron throne is  pretty much guaranteed. I actually think it is very unlikely he manages to take the Iron Throne. Why? Because  Of the prophecy that Cersei Will be cast down by a Queen. I think that this  Almost Disqualifies Aegon from ending up on the Iron Throne.  Unless another Queen Takes it first and then Aegon took it from that person.

I personally think Aegon will stay put until he gets the support of Dorne and then once they Become Allies  instead of Instantly marching on Kings landing , They will choose to march on The Reach Instead . It would make sense strategically as the  Targaryens have support there and it has a ton of crucial supplies for there enemies and there own armies , like food.  I think Danny Arrives in Westeros , where she defeats Aegon before he ever takes Kings landing

I've said this before on this forum, but no where in the line did Maggy say "queen". 

Younger and more beautiful is gender neutral, especially when Cersei uses the adjective "beautiful" to describe Rhaegar, a man. 

I also think the Valonqar is the same person as the younger and more beautiful person. 

And he will strike before young griff reaches Kingslanding.  

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I personally think Aegon will not make it to the end of the series,

That said, I don’t think he will ever sit the Iron Throne. During his efforts he needs to take out the current players in KL and I don’t see the High Sparrow going away without a fight. I see him negotiating with the Tyrell’s and during these negotiations Euron will attack. 

Aegon will help fight him off and will do successfully but never fully break them till... Dany arrives. With the help of Dragons she will defeat Euron (she may lose a dragon in the process). 

Dany will become a kinslayer, She will demand Aegon to prove his parentage some how (he can’t) no  100% concrete evidence is present (nor would sway her imo) Blackfyre isn’t enough to prove his parentage. some will say its enough some will say no (again not enough imo) Maybe if he had Rhaegar’s harp but thats a big if. So Aegon will be forced to follow our old friend Quentyn...

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9 hours ago, Tywin's Wallet said:

he'd always feel like he's reign is in danger

I don't think "always" will last very long, or that his reign will be over that wide of an area. There's only so much time left in the books and his subplot is a rather late addition. If he had a five year gap in which to grow paranoid, that would be one thing, but that notion was discarded before he arrived.

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We know Jon would get more support if he can prove his heritage against that of (f)Aegon's.

Jon is half-Stark, so the Starks would be his natural backers... except that they're out of power and Ned wanted little to do with the throne after he overthrew the Targaryens. Jon's having a difficult enough time up in the North, much less the snakepit of southron politics.

8 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I've said this before on this forum, but no where in the line did Maggy say "queen".

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Queen you shall be, the old woman had promised, with her lips still wet and red and glistening, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

In that context, "another" could be "another person" but is implied to be "another queen" by the normal rules of conversational inference.

7 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

I don’t see the High Sparrow going away without a fight

Griff has been raised by a Septa and trained in the Faith. That clearly seems setup for him to seem acceptable should the High Sparrow reject the Lannisters as incestuous evildoers, while still serving as a counter to the apostate King Stannis and infidel (really, deicidal) Euron. And precisely because Griff's new regime isn't secure yet, he'll be willing to grant the Sparrow plenty of leeway in exchange for his backing.

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Maybe if he had Rhaegar’s harp but thats a big if

I remember some odd speculation that Ned had brought Rhaegar's harp back to the Winterfell crypts. Even if that were true, Ned possessing such an item wouldn't make him a Targaryen (any more than him carrying Dawn for a while made him a Dayne).

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51 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

In that context, "another" could be "another person" but is implied to be "another queen" by the normal rules of conversational inference.

 

You assume much. 

Another is in reference to the person she walked into the tent to talk about, Rhaegar. 

Rhaegar is the only person (besides her children) who Cersei has identified as beautiful. In fact right after the prophecy is recited in AFFC Cersei goes on a tangent about Aurane Waters and how Rhaegar was the most beautiful person in the world. 

Her whole plot revolves around her hatred of Robert for taking him from her. After the boar kills Robert she wears a black dress studded with red rubies as a homage towards the armor Rhaegar wore on the trident. 

Who is a younger and more beautiful version of Rhaegar? His son Aegon VI.

Edited by butterweedstrover

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@FictionIsntReal Be that as it may the faith has never been a ally of House Targaryen. Why now would the faith (Who just consolidated their power) just accept Aegon Targaryen (who many thought were dead) over night as the true and rightful king? Why give up any power? Because he was instructed by a “Septa” thats not good enough.

The High Sparrow has all the power currently in KL, he doesn’t need Aegon.I don’t see the High Sparrow placing a crown over Aegon’s head any time soon...

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Blackfyre. The theory is that he’s a BF, I know. I think that Aegon might be what he says he is, considering the show combined his character with JS and JS’s name in the show being Aegon too. It strikes me as odd, that the show runners would do this, if YG didn’t have a significant part to play in the novels. 

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On 5/8/2020 at 9:48 AM, Hrulj said:

A mummers dragon, ie dragon belonging to a mummer or actor, not that the dragon itself is a mummer or false.

I thought of this myself, a few rereads ago. But the text doesn't really support it. The first appearance of this dragon is not by words, but by an image. Dany sees a cloth dragon on poles as part of her vision in the House of the Undying (ACOK 48).  It's not until later, when she's describing her vision, that the term "mummers dragon" is used (ACOK 63).  

So unless Dany's vision contains a convoluted two-level symbol, I think it's hard to believe that this could refer to a real dragon that belongs to a mummer. It must be someone who appears to be a dragon, but really isn't.

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On 9/3/2020 at 11:12 PM, butterweedstrover said:

Another is in reference to the person she walked into the tent to talk about, Rhaegar.

That doesn't work by the normal rules of conversational inference. Cersei asks early on "Will I marry the Prince?", to which Maggy replies that no she will marry the king. Even if she had said "another" immediately after that, it would mean another prince rather than another Rhaegar. Cersei & Maggy hadn't even specified whether the prince needed to be beautiful (or a Targaryen, as the king she married was a Baratheon instead), nor has anyone noted Young Griff is more beautiful than Rhaegar (admittedly, Connington probably wouldn't think that of anyone). It's only after Cersei asks to confirm that she'll be queen that Maggy references "another".

20 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

@FictionIsntReal Be that as it may the faith has never been a ally of House Targaryen.

Jaehaerys got them to come up with a "Doctrine of Exceptionalism", however little sense that makes. And Baelor was very tight with the Faith. I actually think the alliance of throne & altar seems relatively strong as depicted in Westerosi history, although the church is politically much weaker than its Catholic inspiration and perhaps closer to the caesaropapism of Russian Orthodoxy.

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Why now would the faith (Who just consolidated their power) just accept Aegon Targaryen (who many thought were dead) over night as the true and rightful king?

Because they prefer him to other claimants. The High Sparrow hasn't claimed he's going to abolish the monarchy.

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Why give up any power?

Who says they would be? They are currently recognizing Tommen as king, why not Young Griff instead?

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The High Sparrow has all the power currently in KL

Enough to face down an actual army? That would be tough.

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On 9/4/2020 at 6:50 PM, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

@FictionIsntReal Be that as it may the faith has never been a ally of House Targaryen. Why now would the faith (Who just consolidated their power) just accept Aegon Targaryen (who many thought were dead) over night as the true and rightful king? Why give up any power? Because he was instructed by a “Septa” thats not good enough.

The High Sparrow has all the power currently in KL, he doesn’t need Aegon.I don’t see the High Sparrow placing a crown over Aegon’s head any time soon...

Who else are they going to accept? Lannister reign has been a disaster so far, and Tommen is a kid. Euron is a raider. And High Sparrow does not have all the power in King's Landing. He has a lot of power, but there were other times when Faith had a lot of power. They still had (and one could say, needed) a king.

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16 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That doesn't work by the normal rules of conversational inference. Cersei asks early on "Will I marry the Prince?", to which Maggy replies that no she will marry the king. Even if she had said "another" immediately after that, it would mean another prince rather than another Rhaegar. Cersei & Maggy hadn't even specified whether the prince needed to be beautiful (or a Targaryen, as the king she married was a Baratheon instead), nor has anyone noted Young Griff is more beautiful than Rhaegar (admittedly, Connington probably wouldn't think that of anyone). It's only after Cersei asks to confirm that she'll be queen that Maggy references "another".

 

Yeah I don't think YG is Aegon VI. 

The prophecy however is tied to Cersei, and she uses the word beautiful to describe Rhaegar exclusively. The Aurane Waters tangent happens right afterwards. I think the word 'beautiful' is meant to give us a gender bias so we won't guess the answer.  

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@FictionIsntReal The Faith and House Targaryen do not like each other, Just because a few of their own have had success working with the other side that doesnt mean they are trustworthy or a true ally. Maegor knew the threat they posed, Jahaerys knew he couldn’t exterminate them and had to live them with and benefit off each other. Overall they do not like each other, both are powerful establishments who hold great sway.

 

@Aldarionthey wont accept anyone is my point. Aegon is going to have to force his way into power by attacking the faith and that wont go over well, when euron comes and defeats him perhaps they settle their differences. But the faith doesnt need Aegon or anyone they have little fat Tommen who will do as he is bid. The High Sparrow has a army and all the power in KL at the moment. 

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2 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

@FictionIsntReal The Faith and House Targaryen do not like each other, Just because a few of their own have had success working with the other side that doesnt mean they are trustworthy or a true ally.

Have there been more years or kings in conflict with the Faith or not?

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But the faith doesnt need Aegon or anyone they have little fat Tommen who will do as he is bid.

Tommen does as his family bids.

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The High Sparrow has a army and all the power in KL at the moment. 

Randyll Tarly isn't intimidated by that army.

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2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Have there been more years or kings in conflict with the Faith or not?

Tommen does as his family bids.

Randyll Tarly isn't intimidated by that army.

No conflict doesn’t mean they trust each other. No conflict in the open at least, the faith has always had their own agenda. 

Tommen does as hes bid by who controls him. Whose going to control him now?

I agree Randyll isn’t afraid to back down but were not talking about him were talking about Aegon.

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On 9/7/2020 at 5:43 PM, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

No conflict in the open at least, the faith has always had their own agenda.

They seem to have been political non-actors for a pretty long time, and we don't know what their "agenda" was during that span.

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 Tommen does as hes bid by who controls him. Whose going to control him now?

Not the High Sparrow. Cersei has been released, so presumably her. She & the HS don't care for each other.

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I agree Randyll isn’t afraid to back down but were not talking about him were talking about Aegon.

The HS can't rely on his ability to take on Tarly should push come to shove. But Aegon does have an army which could do that.

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